Split From, Re: 09 SR2 assembly log... Aka Jeffco, Ya right..

[Yoshi]

Yoshi,you always say that you have a lot of cars out there and you have put them to lots of use and on and on and on yet there is very little ever said about your cars anywhere. All I ever see said is that it looks cool and such.Where are the testimonials ? I've never seen one. Why is that? Seems like there would be someone with one that would like to brag about it. In other words until we see some evidence of your chains surviving foe even a reasonable time at a short length it is just hearsay as compared to real posted evidence to the contrary by lots of others.

The guy that bought the Federal car is a good buddy of standfast on MB.net, they take those things out a lot and do extremely hard desert driving.  Although he has had a few issues with the car, he's had no chain issues, although standfast has had some chain issues.  The info is in standfast log over there, and i've talked to him on the phone and he said the chain on my rail has only been adjusted one time, which wasn't very much, and only after he sheered all the bolts that hold one of the neal hubs on in the rear, and the tire shot forward, hit the front tire, went up about 10 foot and then slammed down on the hood of the car, causing no damage..

Regardless, king has built over 75 cars, there is no shortage of people with them to ask how their chains have been holding up.  I've only heard of a handfull of people who have had chain issues, usually alignment, and i've talked to so many busa rail owners it's not even funny. 


As far as real posted evidence of the contrary of chains holding up, I can easily find  more people that say they aren't having problems than you can find that say they are.....

[fabr]

Must be the Grannie driver types. Realistically we know that's the case for most buggy owners.IMO it's the ones like enemy and myself and others that have the problems since we DO drive them hard.

[Boostinjdm]

I know I am going to catch some shit for this, but......

Most of the people that I have read having chain problems have homebuilt cars.  Spose there is anything to that?

[fabr]

You could have a point there and a valid one at times I'm sure.But that does not mean that  custom builders are any better.Have you seen some of the things that have been discussed about some practices of some the "reputable" builders out there? There are very many talented builders that have only built one car also. The reality is that chain issues are discussed on every site that has a chain driven offroad car theme. I put my money on the type of driving being the biggest factor in addition to short lengths and small diameter sprockets.

[Boostinjdm]

I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just sayin that when a guy builds a buggy in his garage or small shop,  he isn't always the most qualified guy for the job.  On top of that, the sample size is very small.   If it takes a year or better to build a buggy and there is chain trouble, then it is a big deal to the guy that just spent a year or better putting the thing together and he is more likely to speak up about it.  Especially if he is a member of a site like this.  If a guy buys a turn key buggy, he prolly doesn't give a shit about a site like this and just goes straight to the builder for correction.  Not everybody is on the net, and not everybody on the net will seek out a site like this for help.  I have built a few things with very short chains that held up fine.  Albeit they were in a whole nother speed and power bracket, but they survived.  I have also built things with both long and short chains that failed before making it very far.  One offs and homebuilders are not a very reliable sample I guess is what I am saying.  For every guy that pays attention to the tiniest detail, there is a thousand that just through stuff together and expect it to work.

[fabr]

I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just sayin that when a guy builds a buggy in his garage or small shop,  he isn't always the most qualified guy for the job.  On top of that, the sample size is very small.   If it takes a year or better to build a buggy and there is chain trouble, then it is a big deal to the guy that just spent a year or better putting the thing together and he is more likely to speak up about it.  Especially if he is a member of a site like this.  If a guy buys a turn key buggy, he prolly doesn't give a shit about a site like this and just goes straight to the builder for correction.  Not everybody is on the net, and not everybody on the net will seek out a site like this for help.  I have built a few things with very short chains that held up fine.  Albeit they were in a whole nother speed and power bracket, but they survived.  I have also built things with both long and short chains that failed before making it very far.  One offs and homebuilders are not a very reliable sample I guess is what I am saying.  For every guy that pays attention to the tiniest detail, there is a thousand that just through stuff together and expect it to work.

I completely agree with what you said and only want to add that the guy that pays a ton for something is the LEAST likely to tell of problems .It's an ego thing.Nobody wants to admit that they might have not gotten what they expected.I see it all the time with homeowners.They buy an overpriced house that has problems and they will tell NOBODY about it but if a guy buys a POS that has problems they will tell EVERYONE about that tho! Trouble is tho that the high priced builder NEVER gets a bad rep from crappy work  but the little guy that is doing his absolute best will get a black eye from minor problems. Go figure.

[Admin]

I completely agree with what you said and only want to add that the guy that pays a ton for something is the LEAST likely to tell of problems .It's an ego thing.Nobody wants to admit that they might have not gotten what they expected.I see it all the time with homeowners.They buy an overpriced house that has problems and they will tell NOBODY about it but if a guy buys a POS that has problems they will tell EVERYONE about that tho! Trouble is tho that the high priced builder NEVER gets a bad rep from crappy work  but the little guy that is doing his absolute best will get a black eye from minor problems. Go figure.

Couldn't have said that any better....

[dsrace]

Regardless, king has built over 75 cars, there is no shortage of people with them to ask how their chains have been holding up.  I've only heard of a handfull of people who have had chain issues, usually alignment, and i've talked to so many busa rail owners it's not even funny. 

yoshi were it is true that king has built quite a few rails, be it 75 or 150 most with a large sprocket in the rear. the reverse option ( from jeffco )  hasn't been around to long. if there hasn't been any issues than great but if there has then we just haven't heard of them. I just have a hard time believing a chain that short ( as in the pic I posted ) could last very long at sustained mid to high rpm. this is just my opinion!

just out of curiosity what kind of chain alignment issue's have you heard or seen? has there been wear on the inside side wall of the chain? wear on the sides of the sprockets? I could see these issues creating a lot of heat not to mention throwing chains but in enemy's case they are aligned the rear sprocket floats just as jeffco ( a representative from jeffco ) said it should and it stays right in the middle, I believe ( I don't have the rail in front of me at this moment to check ). so if it is out of alignment then how? 

[dsrace]

I'm not disagreeing.  I'm just sayin that when a guy builds a buggy in his garage or small shop,  he isn't always the most qualified guy for the job.  On top of that, the sample size is very small.   If it takes a year or better to build a buggy and there is chain trouble, then it is a big deal to the guy that just spent a year or better putting the thing together and he is more likely to speak up about it.  Especially if he is a member of a site like this.  If a guy buys a turn key buggy, he prolly doesn't give a shit about a site like this and just goes straight to the builder for correction.  Not everybody is on the net, and not everybody on the net will seek out a site like this for help.  I have built a few things with very short chains that held up fine.  Albeit they were in a whole nother speed and power bracket, but they survived.  I have also built things with both long and short chains that failed before making it very far.  One offs and homebuilders are not a very reliable sample I guess is what I am saying.  For every guy that pays attention to the tiniest detail, there is a thousand that just through stuff together and expect it to work.

this is very true but I believe that the home builder/ small shop builder puts way more time and personal interest into his own rail and over a years time, attention to detail may fade but is still far greater than that of a shop that is paying someone 10 bucks an hour to run bolts in, I don't think that person puts any thought to detail!!

as far as enemy's rail goes I built the roller and he helped, he also helped set the motor and reverse box and enemy put all the finish work into his rail. he has a very good eye for detail! have you ever set a jeffco reverse box? if not they built that box in a very interesting way, to align it to the motor. 

I have never personally had heating issues with chains on my rails (personal rails) but they have all been large rear sprockets ie. 60 -64 tooth steel or aluminum with n/a motors. I will say this, the more power enemy puts out the shorter the chain life! I think the common denominator in this equation is to short of chain and/or to small of sprocket for the power. I am not trying to start something or offend anyone but this is a fact I keep coming back to. I also would like to see a turbo busa rail with two short chains such as in the pics of kings rev drive set up take a sustained high rpm run.

[dsrace]

I completely agree with what you said and only want to add that the guy that pays a ton for something is the LEAST likely to tell of problems .It's an ego thing.Nobody wants to admit that they might have not gotten what they expected.I see it all the time with homeowners.They buy an overpriced house that has problems and they will tell NOBODY about it but if a guy buys a POS that has problems they will tell EVERYONE about that tho! Trouble is tho that the high priced builder NEVER gets a bad rep from crappy work  but the little guy that is doing his absolute best will get a black eye from minor problems. Go figure.

this is very true!! unfortunately.

[Yoshi]

yoshi were it is true that king has built quite a few rails, be it 75 or 150 most with a large sprocket in the rear. the reverse option ( from jeffco )  hasn't been around to long. if there hasn't been any issues than great but if there has then we just haven't heard of them. I just have a hard time believing a chain that short ( as in the pic I posted ) could last very long at sustained mid to high rpm. this is just my opinion!

just out of curiosity what kind of chain alignment issue's have you heard or seen? has there been wear on the inside side wall of the chain? wear on the sides of the sprockets? I could see these issues creating a lot of heat not to mention throwing chains but in enemy's case they are aligned the rear sprocket floats just as jeffco ( a representative from jeffco ) said it should and it stays right in the middle, I believe ( I don't have the rail in front of me at this moment to check ). so if it is out of alignment then how?

only chain issues i've seen were of my own.  Chain blued on both sides and stretched like a mo fo until it cooled, then it shrank back up.  My sprocket was on backward, causing a 3/16" misalignment, I swapped the sprocket around and it was fine.

I don't wanna go against anything Jeffco says, but I am not sure a floating sprocket is the best idea, as it won't float under power, it will simply twist a bit, causing misalignment and stretching/bluing.  I request the 2 alan shoulder sleeve for my units, not the c-clip, and I snug up the clip as tight as I can to the sprocket so it doesn't move.

I think part of the issue is coming from the unit itself, it gets really hot and transfers the heat to the chain.  This is a problem with any reverse unit, as the transworks unit I used (when it briefly worked) got so hot it literally bubbled the paint off the case, and burnt my hand after very short use, maybe that's why people with the bigger sprockets in the rear and no reverse aren't having problems, between the lack of the heat generating unit, and the big aluminum sprocket (which is a heat dissipater) the chain may be fine.

My suggestion for you is to first try a fan on the chain (well, you might wanna get rid of the floating setup first as well), and I would seriously look into running an oil cooler to take care of the reverse unit's heat issues, not just for the chain, but to prolong the life of the unit as well.

I am about to be the ultimate guinea pig for everyone, I am putting a motor that has around 450 hp, into a rail that will weigh around 1700 pounds, and i'm fairly confident I will have the exact same problems enemy is having, so I will first install a $29 fan, and if that doesn't work, my next option will prob. be the gearbox cooler, followed by a dual 530 chain setup (maybe 630 since the chains are roughly the same cost wise), which will be very easy to build.  Whatever the fix is for the problem, I will have to come up with it before I can let the customer take it, so rest assured, we'll have a definite fix for the chain debate before too long once I start testing..

[Doug Heim]

This is all very intresting but I would have to tend to agree with the majority here. The harder you drive the more stress your inducing into the drive line. Depends on the friver but I dont tend to sell parts to sunday drivers. I dont want to call out any specific names or say whos right or wrong. But this is what I know!

A CHAIN WILL LAST FOREVER if you rarly drive it and when you do you baby the shit out of it. No matter how short it is.

I run a 74 pin chain on a 13 tooth and larger 60 rear. I also have a 15 tooth idler running between the 2 sprockets. I have no chain issues but I run the large sprocket. 2 small sprockets running a short chain is a shit design and in theory (<<<word used very loosley) will never handle even average driving. I consider it a fact. Not opinion.

[dsrace]

only chain issues i've seen were of my own.  Chain blued on both sides and stretched like a mo fo until it cooled, then it shrank back up.  My sprocket was on backward, causing a 3/16" misalignment, I swapped the sprocket around and it was fine.

I don't wanna go against anything Jeffco says, but I am not sure a floating sprocket is the best idea, as it won't float under power, it will simply twist a bit, causing misalignment and stretching/bluing.  I request the 2 alan shoulder sleeve for my units, not the c-clip, and I snug up the clip as tight as I can to the sprocket so it doesn't move.

I think part of the issue is coming from the unit itself, it gets really hot and transfers the heat to the chain.  This is a problem with any reverse unit, as the transworks unit I used (when it briefly worked) got so hot it literally bubbled the paint off the case, and burnt my hand after very short use, maybe that's why people with the bigger sprockets in the rear and no reverse aren't having problems, between the lack of the heat generating unit, and the big aluminum sprocket (which is a heat dissipater) the chain may be fine.

My suggestion for you is to first try a fan on the chain (well, you might wanna get rid of the floating setup first as well), and I would seriously look into running an oil cooler to take care of the reverse unit's heat issues, not just for the chain, but to prolong the life of the unit as well.

I am about to be the ultimate guinea pig for everyone, I am putting a motor that has around 450 hp, into a rail that will weigh around 1700 pounds, and i'm fairly confident I will have the exact same problems enemy is having, so I will first install a $29 fan, and if that doesn't work, my next option will prob. be the gearbox cooler, followed by a dual 530 chain setup (maybe 630 since the chains are roughly the same cost wise), which will be very easy to build.  Whatever the fix is for the problem, I will have to come up with it before I can let the customer take it, so rest assured, we'll have a definite fix for the chain debate before too long once I start testing..

the first chain I saw that burnt ( on enemy's rail ) was only blued where the it made contact with the sprockets so I figured it absorbed a huge amount of heat from the sprockets. this was after I full throttle run in 6th about 1 mile long and 8 passes ( I believe ). but now that he is pushing more power the chains are cooking right away. I still believe the fix is a longer chain and/or bigger sprockets. I will be interested in what you come up with so keep us posted! keep it up in the rpm's and load it down good for quite a distance to see what it will do, since nothing at LS oklahoma compares to the long stretch's at the big dunes.

[fabr]

only chain issues i've seen were of my own.  Chain blued on both sides and stretched like a mo fo until it cooled, then it shrank back up.  My sprocket was on backward, causing a 3/16" misalignment, I swapped the sprocket around and it was fine.

I don't wanna go against anything Jeffco says, but I am not sure a floating sprocket is the best idea, as it won't float under power, it will simply twist a bit, causing misalignment and stretching/bluing.  I request the 2 alan shoulder sleeve for my units, not the c-clip, and I snug up the clip as tight as I can to the sprocket so it doesn't move.

I think part of the issue is coming from the unit itself, it gets really hot and transfers the heat to the chain.  This is a problem with any reverse unit, as the transworks unit I used (when it briefly worked) got so hot it literally bubbled the paint off the case, and burnt my hand after very short use, maybe that's why people with the bigger sprockets in the rear and no reverse aren't having problems, between the lack of the heat generating unit, and the big aluminum sprocket (which is a heat dissipater) the chain may be fine.

My suggestion for you is to first try a fan on the chain (well, you might wanna get rid of the floating setup first as well), and I would seriously look into running an oil cooler to take care of the reverse unit's heat issues, not just for the chain, but to prolong the life of the unit as well.

I am about to be the ultimate guinea pig for everyone, I am putting a motor that has around 450 hp, into a rail that will weigh around 1700 pounds, and i'm fairly confident I will have the exact same problems enemy is having, so I will first install a $29 fan, and if that doesn't work, my next option will prob. be the gearbox cooler, followed by a dual 530 chain setup (maybe 630 since the chains are roughly the same cost wise), which will be very easy to build.  Whatever the fix is for the problem, I will have to come up with it before I can let the customer take it, so rest assured, we'll have a definite fix for the chain debate before too long once I start testing..

Since no one else has I'm sure you will.And as DS said try running it at speed like you were in the desert running long distance. We're not talking about making a pleasant run to Buttercup,stopping and looking around,buzzing the face a couple of times,going to the top and watching everyone else.Post up the video of a really vigorous test and not a short run up the street either. Enemy would be someone to turn loose with it since we KNOW he can overheat a chain. You should have this "fix" ready soon and I'll be more than glad to be an observer of your testing when you have said fix perfected.Just let me know when and I'll be there to document and report. Ready?   

[Yoshi]

Since no one else has I'm sure you will.And as DS said try running it at speed like you were in the desert running long distance. We're not talking about making a pleasant run to Buttercup,stopping and looking around,buzzing the face a couple of times,going to the top and watching everyone else.Post up the video of a really vigorous test and not a short run up the street either. Enemy would be someone to turn loose with it since we KNOW he can overheat a chain. You should have this "fix" ready soon and I'll be more than glad to be an observer of your testing when you have said fix perfected.Just let me know when and I'll be there to document and report. Ready?

First testing will be below the river, about 10 min. up the street.  You can get down on the smooth sand and get it wide open for miles on end. I'll do all my initial testing there since I can open it up longer and since it is so close, then i'll take it to the dunes or a few weekends.........

I'm also about ready to buy some of the small go-pro video cameras, I can stick one facing the chain as well.  First test will have to be regular so we can see how quick the chain trashes, that way we can use it as a bases for what is working and how much better....