Author Topic: Little Sahara  (Read 309 times)

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Offline BrianN

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Little Sahara
« on: May 14, 2020, 06:29:45 PM »
My brother and I are heading for Little Sahara this weekend.  If anyone on here is going to be there, look me up. We will dune!

Offline fabr

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2020, 07:04:16 PM »
I would but fedex just got my needed,much,much larger Setrab oil cooler and fan here yesterday and I won't have all needed hose fittings here till next week to finish install or I'd be there for sure. What did the dyno show you?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 07:06:01 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline BrianN

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 06:57:15 AM »
I will get back to you on the dyno info when I understand more. It was not really a pleasant experience, but it was my first attempt at this type of thing. I think I have learned enough about the process and will be better prepared next time.

Offline fabr

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 08:41:36 AM »
I'm NOT impressed with tuners and their dynos. None really focus on drivability. All they are concerned with is WOT numbers.  When I got back from the dyno and loaded up the tune so I could see the maps I was ,well,quite disappointed . I have had to do a LOT of tweaking the tune in all cells other than WOT.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2020, 08:13:28 AM »
I'm NOT impressed with tuners and their dynos. None really focus on drivability. All they are concerned with is WOT numbers.  When I got back from the dyno and loaded up the tune so I could see the maps I was ,well,quite disappointed . I have had to do a LOT of tweaking the tune in all cells other than WOT.

i have never had an engine dyno'd. with my current engine i purchased an ecu specific to my engine because it came with a safe base tune. now in many cases those aren't always available. this is where good tuners and dyno's come in imo. also imo, for what they charge one would think they would smooth all cells around the map as they do have some effect to the map as a whole. is this a large effect? in most cases probably not but in most cases this does make small changes. with the growing number of open source ecu's and tuning software more and more are looking where they once have not. more and more are taking it upon themselves to learn as well. so consequently, more and more are critiuqing there tunes.

i will say right up front that i am no expert!  i have learned a lot in the last 4 years though. enemy is far more advanced at this than myself, so i defer to him with questions. so for this reason i understand what fabr is saying, first hand!  if you look at the line across the map ( across the cells your running in) then you can see where you operate. the cells surrounding the operating cells need to be blended ( smoothed) to somewhat match the cells on that line. i say this because as you enter those cells, the cells around them have small effects on transitioning into that cells and those following. blending the table in all cells is best and i doubt there are many tuners that will take the time to do so. it may not seem important or actually be important to adjust all cells, imo it should be done. for what the tuners charge i believ they should spend the time to do so!

i like my auto anylize feature in tuner studio with megasquirt. i can pick and choose what to accept, i can compare suggested changes with the current map and i can ignore altogether. you can set perameters as to how aggressive a change it suggests and where. the 3d map view is extrememly helpful ( for myself) to get an visual overview of the map as a whole.

i have spent many hrs pouring over data logs and smoothing my map. now with the manifold leaks i have had, along with a few other issues i am still working through, i am glad i have not spent the money on a dyno session yet. i have been asked a number of times what hp is my engine making, my answer is ....i don't care lol.  doing this myaself has allowed me to improve, fine tune, adjust drivability in the areas inwhich i play the most.  i do believe that there are certain tuning strategies that do need to be dialed in on a dyno but not untill i get it real close to correct. at such time i will then take mine to a dyno and find out if theres any improvment to be had on the timing table and have other areas adjusted.

when doug took his ford turbo 2.3 to the dyno that was next to fast's shop, that guy insisted on starting from scratch to build a tune. to this day i do not understand why or what the benifit is. again i am no expert and would certainly like to know why/what???? i would think working finishing a current working tune would be simpler but again i am not an expert.  luckily there is an engine shop 1.5 miles from me that now has a mustang dyno that i trust.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2020, 08:41:22 AM »
due to the terrain i am run on, i do not allow my auto anylize to make aggressive changes. this takes longer to build a better tune, coupled with a leaking exhaust  LMAO the leaking exhaust makes it impossible. i need to remedy this issue and will. had an interesting suggestion i will look into! so when i get time to take my rail to our family ranch, i will then have 40 plus miles of sand/gravel mixed vacant roads to really load and sweep cells in a more smooth fashion. plus it's a great stress reliever  ;D ;D  i had considered taking my rail to the guy next to fast's old shop but to be honest, after hearing about wanting to start from scratch on dougs rail, the issue big dave had coupled with the fact that jerry cass butted heads with him, i think i will give the local guy a try. i am not saying that guy is a bad tuner, i just don't need the stress of butting heads with him as i want specific area's tuned on my engine.

luckily my software ( coupled with my ecu)  allows me the option of auto anylizing data logs offline. i can then take the time to smooth the cells surrounding the suggested cell changes, before uploading to the ecu.  i have taken the time to input all dead time info for my specific inj's. i am running seq injection as well as ignition. the seq ignition isn't really needed as i am not operating at or above 7/7500 rpm. i say that as i have read several articles pertaining to my engine, stating that is where seq ign comes into play. i still run it because i can   :m:nw   now my inj's are seq but i have not activated individual adjustments. i have all that set/input but have not had the time to come up with a way to monitor/data log individual temps or afr data. reading the plugs is all i have done for now. i figure as long as that looks good i am safe for now. i am not sure your standard dyno session includes cyl by cyl monitoring with out an 02 sensor on each exh port or egt probe. again not an expert so i don't know.  what i do know , is that even after having ones engine dyno tuned, one still needs to make small adjustments based on terrain/load. i should say imo that one still needs to make those small adjustments to get the best "drivability" tune possible for each individual application.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2020, 04:45:00 PM »
I'm NOT impressed with tuners and their dynos. None really focus on drivability. All they are concerned with is WOT numbers.  When I got back from the dyno and loaded up the tune so I could see the maps I was ,well,quite disappointed . I have had to do a LOT of tweaking the tune in all cells other than WOT.

i have never had an engine dyno'd. with my current engine i purchased an ecu specific to my engine because it came with a safe base tune. now in many cases those aren't always available. this is where good tuners and dyno's come in imo. also imo, for what they charge one would think they would smooth all cells around the map as they do have some effect to the map as a whole.every cell influences the 8 cells touching it is this a large effect?depends on where it is in the map and how large the step is. Many times it makes a big difference. in most cases probably not but in most cases this does make small changes. with the growing number of open source ecu's and tuning software more and more are looking where they once have not. more and more are taking it upon themselves to learn as well.ALL should learn how to log and do tuning,IMO. so trust your performance to a tuner.consequently, more and more are critiuqing there tunes. You can't just trust your performance to a tuner.

i will say right up front that i am no expert!  i have learned a lot in the last 4 years though. enemy is far more advanced at this than myself, so i defer to him with questions. so for this reason i understand what fabr is saying, first hand!  if you look at the line across the map ( across the cells your running in) then you can see where you operate. the cells surrounding the operating cells need to be blended ( smoothed) to somewhat match the cells on that line. i say this because as you enter those cells, the cells around them have small effects on transitioning into that cells and those following. blending the table in all cells is best and i doubt there are many tuners that will take the time to do so. it may not seem important or actually be important to adjust all cells, imo it should be done. for what the tuners charge i believ they should spend the time to do so! Should,could but don't.

i like my auto anylize feature in tuner studio with megasquirt. i can pick and choose what to accept, i can compare suggested changes with the current map and i can ignore altogether. you can set perameters as to how aggressive a change it suggests and where. the 3d map view is extrememly helpful ( for myself) to get an visual overview of the map as a whole. The 3d maps are extremely useful.

i have spent many hrs pouring over data logs and smoothing my map. :m Tell me about it!! I know what you mean!now with the manifold leaks i have had, along with a few other issues i am still working through, i am glad i have not spent the money on a dyno session yet.IMO a dyno is a necessity to find a proper timing map and for WOT. Otherwise logging and tweaking the drivability is best done yourself. i have been asked a number of times what hp is my engine making, my answer is ....i don't care lol.  doing this myaself has allowed me to improve, fine tune, adjust drivability in the areas inwhich i play the most.  i do believe that there are certain tuning strategies that do need to be dialed in on a dynoYep,timing and WOT. but not untill i get it real close to correct. at such time i will then take mine to a dyno and find out if theres any improvment to be had on the timing table and have other areas adjusted.Tweak the timing but tell them to leave the drivability to you.

when doug took his ford turbo 2.3 to the dyno that was next to fast's shop, that guy insisted on starting from scratch to build a tune. to this day i do not understand why or what the benifit isNeither do I but he took my tune as it was and did find about 50 more hosses at WOT than I had by leaning it out slightly and adding 2 degrees timing. . again i am no expert and would certainly like to know why/what???? i would think working finishing a current working tune would be simpler but again i am not an expert.  luckily there is an engine shop 1.5 miles from me that now has a mustang dyno that i trust.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2020, 04:49:03 PM »
due to the terrain i am run on, i do not allow my auto anylize to make aggressive changes. this takes longer to build a better tune, coupled with a leaking exhaust  LMAO the leaking exhaust makes it impossible. i need to remedy this issue and will. had an interesting suggestion i will look into! so when i get time to take my rail to our family ranch, i will then have 40 plus miles of sand/gravel mixed vacant roads to really load and sweep cells in a more smooth fashion. plus it's a great stress reliever  ;D ;D  i had considered taking my rail to the guy next to fast's old shop but to be honest, after hearing about wanting to start from scratch on dougs rail, the issue big dave had coupled with the fact that jerry cass butted heads with him, i think i will give the local guy a try. i am not saying that guy is a bad tuner, i just don't need the stress of butting heads with him as i want specific area's tuned on my engine.

luckily my software ( coupled with my ecu)  allows me the option of auto anylizing data logs offline. i can then take the time to smooth the cells surrounding the suggested cell changes, before uploading to the ecu.  i have taken the time to input all dead time info for my specific inj's. i am running seq injection as well as ignition. the seq ignition isn't really needed as i am not operating at or above 7/7500 rpm. i say that as i have read several articles pertaining to my engine, stating that is where seq ign comes into play. i still run it because i can   :m:nw   now my inj's are seq but i have not activated individual adjustments. i have all that set/input but have not had the time to come up with a way to monitor/data log individual temps or afr data. reading the plugs is all i have done for now. i figure as long as that looks good i am safe for now. i am not sure your standard dyno session includes cyl by cyl monitoring with out an 02 sensor on each exh port or egt probe. again not an expert so i don't know.  what i do know , is that even after having ones engine dyno tuned, one still needs to make small adjustments based on terrain/load. i should say imo that one still needs to make those small adjustments to get the best "drivability" tune possible for each individual application.
FWIW,I have decided that auto tune is not all that good and do not run it. YOU or your tuner must decide AFR targets and then auto tune tries to get you to those targets. Nothing says they are good targets. YOU or the tuner must do that and a good tuner will .....at WOT.  I will use the dyno again but ,you guessed it,just for timing maps and maybe WOT. A dyno is very ,very useful for determing timing needs.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2020, 06:20:50 AM »
i agree that timing is best developed on a dyno! never considered wot but that would be best on a dyno as well. i did not know that the surrounding 8 cells could effect the used cell but i can see that. i have been bringing all the immediate cells surrounding the used cell up equal them smoothing 6 cell block to smooth the 3d map. i also have been blending area's of the map i never remotely enter just because. i will have to enlarge my blocks now so thanks for that  :m    :m 

the engine shop 1.5 miles from myself was tuning a car most of the day yesterday. i live out in the county side so the sound carrier quite a ways. was nice music while i installed my new awning over the back door of the toyhauler yesterday!
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2020, 12:33:30 PM »
The processor speed of the ecu is important as well. If an engine revs fast,the ecu might not be able to keep up. I have that issue with the FAST sportsman now.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: Little Sahara
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2020, 02:14:12 PM »
correct. ms3 is fairly fast but still.....
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience