Author Topic: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks  (Read 3086 times)

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Offline fabr

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Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« on: May 07, 2019, 08:55:19 PM »
I have such a large investment in Gen1 small block Chevys. Lots of shit actually. Waaaayyyy too much to just dump for nothing on ebay or whatever.Soooo I've really hesitated to make a change from the Brodix heads that have given me such grief. Anyway,I've been mulling over my options. I think I have the solution. I have one fresh pair of the brodix heads,and another set that will be fresh after repairs. Both sets are worth at least $5K per pair with rockers setups and pushrods.Sell them both,keep the high $$$$ rotating assemblies and change to the Chevy SB2.2 upper end platform that will allow me to continue running my bullet proof assemblies and bolt on the SB2.2 stuff. All I will have to rework will be headers and a few coolant lines. SWEET!!!!  BTW,the SB2.2 stuff is what nascar ran for a long time in a 360 max CID. I will be running my 427 rotating assemblies. Won't be dougy power but 800+ should be sweet enough and won't cost hardly anything(relatively speaking) to make the conversion to reliability.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 08:59:03 PM »
All I have to do now is decide if I want a complete engine with fewer than 600 laps on it or a fresh engine fresh off the dyno. Approx $8K difference,engines come complete ,ready to run.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fastcorvairs

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 05:13:19 AM »
I have such a large investment in Gen1 small block Chevys. Lots of shit actually. Waaaayyyy too much to just dump for nothing on ebay or whatever.Soooo I've really hesitated to make a change from the Brodix heads that have given me such grief. Anyway,I've been mulling over my options. I think I have the solution. I have one fresh pair of the brodix heads,and another set that will be fresh after repairs. Both sets are worth at least $5K per pair with rockers setups and pushrods.Sell them both,keep the high $$$$ rotating assemblies and change to the Chevy SB2.2 upper end platform that will allow me to continue running my bullet proof assemblies and bolt on the SB2.2 stuff. All I will have to rework will be headers and a few coolant lines. SWEET!!!!  BTW,the SB2.2 stuff is what nascar ran for a long time in a 360 max CID. I will be running my 427 rotating assemblies. Won't be dougy power but 800+ should be sweet enough and won't cost hardly anything(relatively speaking) to make the conversion to reliability.

Dump them.  Done gave you to much grief.  Go with the newer stuff. 

If I believe I cannot do something it makes me incapable of doing it. But when I believe that I can, then I acquire the ability to do it , even if I didn't have it at the beginning.

Offline dsrace

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 08:23:16 AM »
did you get your heads off? it was another cooling port? i just find it amazing that there that weak! i know there not virgin and prob been buffed to thin but still , damn the headaces you've had and loss of run time!   i would tend to agree with your thought on sb2.2.     so i just have to throw this out there as a thought.  there are many that make an easy 600 to 800 hp with a 6.0 chevy with a bolt on turbo to ported head and better valves with good intake.  i think an easy 600 out of a 5.3 ltre even. just a thought is all.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
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Offline lsxsonoma

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 08:59:22 AM »
My personal opinion, as i am fairly well versed in the ls series engines... why not take a 5.3 or 6.0, boost it stock on 8 or so psi like what dsrace said. And if that’s not enough, boostline rods, weisco junkyard dog pistons and a stock crank will reliably make you 800-1000 without sweating (as long as the tune and supporting mods are there) I build turbo ls powered stuff for myself and others and will eventually have a ls powered rail of some sort.



My latest project coming to a close. Aluminum block 5.3, s475 turbo, Ms3pro, 4l80e. All built and tuned by me.


Offline Enemy

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 09:14:06 AM »
I am a boost junkie but love the instant gratification off idle from a high compression NA mill, so understand both perspectives.
But can somebody please school a guy that would have planted a 427sbf in it by now lol?
What is the differences between sbc and the sb2.2 stuff?  Just intake and head design??
"If the hate of men could be turned into electricity, it would light up the whole world."   ~Nikola Tesla

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 02:00:43 PM »
I'm staying N/A for several reasons I won't get into. As most here know I am a boost lover though. My reason for not going to an LS based engine is still so I can use up a LOT of high$$$ parts I have now. Rods,cranks,blocks,rods.The SB2.2 allows me to utilize them with a reliable top end that bolts right onto the Gen1 SBC stuff.   YES,there are better engine combos but nothing that will allow me to use up my good stuff for quite a long time into the future. Anything that will make me 700-800HP and a nice flat tq curve covering a 4500 rpm band in the rpm range I want is just fine. The sb2.2 stuff will do that.

Enemy,the head that just cracked was a virgin. As I have said before I never had any issues with the dragster till the very end. I had no idea ,till all this crap,that there was a design issue with the Brodix heads castings with the middle 2 exhaust port water jackets. Brodix did let me in on it last year when the first casting cracked.According to them the 2 I have that have not cracked would likely be good here on but I'm over it and am making the change. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 02:02:10 PM »
LSXsonoma,I agree but wish to stay N/A on this car.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 02:04:02 PM »
DS,all good thoughts but you know me,I like to travel a different path .
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 03:41:49 PM »
DS,all good thoughts but you know me,I like to travel a different path .

 ;) yes i do

i can understand with a healthy inventory of parts. i was just thinking if your buying a whole new built motor then might consider another path. i hate to say it but the v8's are a lot of fun  ;D ;) ;)
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 06:20:05 PM »
I am a boost junkie but love the instant gratification off idle from a high compression NA mill, so understand both perspectives.
But can somebody please school a guy that would have planted a 427sbf in it by now lol?
What is the differences between sbc and the sb2.2 stuff?  Just intake and head design??
Basically ,yes. The true SB2.2 is a standard layout GM compacted graphite race block . The lifter bores are position altered to better line up pushrods to the rockers. A standard lifter bore arrangement can (is is commonly done) be used with the SB2.2 heads as well. Hence my 427-434" sbc block/rotating assemblies can be used with appropriate pistons being the only thing needing changed. These heads on a 358" engine have a pretty high power band but it is WIDE. On the 427+" motors the rpm range should be lowered approx 1500 rpm and still be wide as the grand canyon.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 06:26:19 PM »
BTW,I just bought a Richard Childress engine. One race on it-supposedly. It still has the nascar seal tag on it anyway.Bought complete engine including 5 stage dry sump for less than just a set of heads would have cost. I'm just going to do a leak down on it and if all is well there I will bolt the thing in and run the piss out of it till winter and convert it to the 427" lower end for next year. If the leak down is disappointing or indicates heads needing freshened I will do the conversion now. I'll know first of week what will happen. Going on a 12 hour one way road trip probably this week end.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2019, 06:49:43 AM »
well i REALLY hop this works very well for a long time! want to see you run with us again!
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2019, 10:20:16 PM »
Just got back from picking it up.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 08:44:30 PM »
Update on the Sb2.2. Had comp grind me a bit more appropriate cam for this 358C.I. motor. The cam that was in it was .880 lift and a shit ton of duration that the heads would love at 9300rpm all day but I felt a smaller cam that would bring the power more into the 3000-8000 range would be a lot better and not hurt the power too much.Comp suggested a grind intended for 24 hour endurance road racing would be a lot easier on the valve train. I agreed with that. Ended up with a .760 lift and about 260* @ .020 lift duration.

I was surprised when I took the valve covers off. The T&D shaft rockers are non adjustable. Yup,solir roller cam with a non adjustable valve train. I had never seen such a thing before sooooooo a quick call to T&D was in order. They told me many nascar teams use non adjustaable valve train . Just 16 more things that can't cause problems and lose a race. OK.........how does a person set lash? Custom length push rods and varying thickness lash caps. That's how.Titanium intake valves are only 6mm stems and exhaust are 7mm. Skinny little things.  :nw  THEN I went to looking for lash caps for those stem sizes. Seems like they are rare little bitches. Rare as in I only found one place to get them.  https://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/cv-racing-products/
Pretty much a hardcore nascar/busch/whatever supplier. Thank heaven there are still lots of guys running these things. 6mm caps are available in a .020 range of thicknesses @.001 increments and 7mm ones are a .040 range. I'll have Trend do the pushrods.

Engine is back together now except for the push rods and lash caps. Waiting on a stand height gauge from T&D so I can bolt the rocker stands on at the right height. The .100 lower lift will require adjusting the height for the stands so the rocker geometry stays spot on and centered on those skinny ass valve stems. Trend makes custom push rods in just a few days. Damn fine company for sure.

Got new headers done tonight. I phucking HATE fitting welding up headers, Seriously,I HATE doing it. Oh well,they're done and are going to OKC ,Ok monday foe Jet-Hot to do the ceramic coating thing. There is just no equal to Jet-Hot other than Swain but Swain only has a 2500* coating . Not only very high temp but high $$$$$$$$$$$ as well. Jet-Hot has an equal but their 1300* coating is amply good for N/A cars. Still about $360 including return freight to have 2 headers coated inside and out.

It has the obligatory belt cam drive and as is normal ,replace any cam belt if you don't know it's history and time of use.No biggie,just call Jesel and get a new one.  LMAO 5: LMAO uh huh.....sure. I tell the guy I need a belt for a SB2.2 he says OK,a 20 or 25mm wide belt. I say I have a 30mm wide belt. He says they never made any 30mm wide cam drives. I tell him it was in a Richard Childress cup motor. He says no it wasn't. It can't be a Jesel cam drive if it uses a 30 mm belt. I say,"well that's funny since everything on this drive says Jesel all over it. Things went downhill fast after that. I didn't get any help on a belt either so I went looking for a belt. Can they be found by the part number on it? OH,HELL NOOOOOOO!  The belt wasn't a Jesel that was on it since I'm sure it wasn't the original Jesel.  It was Goodyear and I thought -name brand ,cool.  I look up Goodyear 300 S8M 576 CSY.  There is absolutely NO mention on the internet about such a belt. 300 refers to 30mm wide. S8M is the pitch and tooth profile. 576 is mm length or 72 tooth. CSY? Who the hell knows. Turns out Goodyear sold their timing belt line to Continental and then to Conti-tech . I got hold of contitech and they say huh,that's off a Cup car. Cool,I found it. Nope,Contitech doesn't stock ANY timing belts and they are all made to order. OK,I want to order one. Nope,they are made on a big mandrell and then cut to width. Something like 20 belts worth. Well,can you tell me what the CSY suffix refers to? It's a highly wear resistant tooth facing that is used on very few belt offerings.  Anyway I got referred to CV products. Yup the lash cap guys. I call them and $109 later it is on it's way. All 25 mm of it. WHAT?????? The damn thing is only 23mm wide. Correct part number,Goodyear and Nascar all over it. I call CV back and tell them of this,mThey say no way,the part number is correct and the belt must be 30mm. They agree to send me another and send a call tag for this one. The second one was 30mm as it should be and know what? It was a Contitech!! :m  It took a few extra says and I'll bet they had a new/correct batch made.

Damn weight conscious Nascar boys mill off every extra ounce they can fron these things and since they use a front motor plate the blocks side motor mount bosses have been milled off. Probably save all of a half pound. That necessitated making a front mpunt but it is actually better now. Opened up some room /incorporated crank trigger pickup into it as well /made routing dry sump hoses easier also.

The radiator setup was fine but I was able to get rid of the coolant return manifold thing the Brodix heads necessitated. That really opened up some room around the distributor. Much nicer now.

Finally , when I drained the engine oil from the dry sump tank,it of course had coolant in it from the water works. What I didn't expect to see was coolant in the torque converter tank. WTF!?!?!?!???? Seems the Moroso dual pressure section pump lost the seal between sections and was mixing tranny fluid and engine oil. DAMMIT!!!! I called the converter builder  https://www.tcsperformance.com/  and asked if it is OK to just run engine oil in the converter since it is for the converter driving a manual trans only and not an automatic trans.  They said sure , no problem and several offroad guys do it. Good enough for me. I get to get rid of one oil tank. Weld in an extra pickup and 2 more returns on the dry sump tank and I'm good to go. COOL!

Bottom line,this has been a PITA and a lot of work but less then going a totally different way would have been. I'll get a 427 inch short block ready this winter and break it out next spring.That will really make the heads work well. See you guys in Sept.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)