Author Topic: turbo selection  (Read 2263 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2019, 08:14:33 AM »
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? Can they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.

i do know that we are not actually " blowing the spark out" just a term commonly used on the net so i do so for all to follow along.
 
gm ls coils are claimed to run safely up to 4.5 ms before saturation and auto ign becomes an issue. auto ignition is to be avoided at all costs lol very bad lol.  that would be gm ls coils and not the internet knock off specials.  now with shorter spark plug wires and running seq as i am and not wasted spark, i would think i and enemy's would have better recharge times for proper dwell. also have to remember we run the cas system so no dizzy where a number on those forums run dizzy'z.

like i said earlier i have tried the stock plugs, i then tried the split fire iridium many say not too and now just iridium. i can tell a diff and they are def better then stock copper core plugs.  now that champion looks intriguing

another thought is that where i am running a lower resistance wire than stock LS wires i am slighter longer. i have wondered what factor that could throw in as well. those ign 1a coils are higher mj and offer longer spark duration. now i may not even have the mj of the gm as mine are probably not original gm coils. i ran .024 gap before and it ran fine up to 25 psi as well but stumbled beyond. i set them at .020 for the last trip and planned on adding some duty cycle to send it back to 30 but with the exh leak i knew my 02 sensor wasn't going to be right so i left it as is and enjoyed the trip. while it's tore apart i plan on making a change. so great discussion.

 
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2019, 08:15:54 AM »
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

this i do not know, but would like to


i have tried the version with the v groove in the electrode. i have not tried the model with multiple ground straps.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 08:17:54 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2019, 08:46:40 AM »
here is an interesting concept........ a person i have spoken with but do not actually know or have met, runs a dual plug head ( dp head). in the ranger n/a 2.3 4 cyl engines say 97 and later i think, they made dp heads which i believe was for emissions. now BO ( the person i speak of) runs an older pantera ecu that allows him to run all 8 coils. he runs fords coil on plug ( cop) which look similar to the busa coils that i call stick coils. he is able to fire the 2nd set of 4 coils off 9* later than the primary 4 coils and has gained some midrange and top end from this on the dyno. as i said i do not know him, he is a friend of a friend and have only spoken with him, but i do believe him as i can see this. he too runs a turbo 2.3 on e85 with the same size inj's and pump as i do.

another interesting talk i had, with the guy rebuilding dougs 2.3 engine, was that the conservative hot and cold timing maps included with out ecu's from stinger are both overly conservative lol. again i do not know this guy but he is very passionate about the the turbo 2.3's and has built quite a few all tuned on the dyno. we didn't discuss what kind of dyno  and he does not tune them himself but has a good understanding of it. he makes 500 rwhp  out of his 2 current turbo 2.3's ( ones stuffed in a beetle lol ) and has one high comp n/a 2.3. the interesting part was when he told me he makes that at only 20 psi boost. now obviously that is a larger turbo than i run and that deducts from lower rpm spool time. i did not get a chance to ask which coils he ran as we  discussed other things, such as he spins his to 8200 rpm and dougs engine. he asked what my timing was at 20 psi at higher load cells as he runs 27*, we both run e85 fuel. the stinger hot ign map at 5k rpm and 320 kpa is 17* as i am looking at it right now and at 6500 rpm and 320 kpa is 18.5*.  he also told me based on his experience in the 2.3 realm that my 200 psi cold cranking comp test  vs stock 140 psi is actually closer to 10.5:1 rather than the 9:1 comp ratio i believe it to be.  he started to explain why the 2.3 is a trickier engine to calculate than most but the conversation was re directed back to 27* advance timing. we all know what that equates to !! the tuner he works with apparently is well versed with the 2.3 engines as well as several turbo e85 engines.  again i do not know this guy and have only spoken with him as he is re building dougs engine. he is as passionate about the 2.3's as spec was/is about jerkey!  ;D reminded me of paul ( spec ) on the phone.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2019, 11:07:47 AM »
i did find a pic of the Champion c61hcx, i am intrigued. i did not find any real info on it. i wonder if ngk makes a similar plug?

Yes but not as far cut back. The NGK is as in the pic I posted. I like the Champion . It was in the SB2.2 heads I got. Had never seen a factory cut back as far. A spark is easier developed/received from a sharp edge. With it cut back that far there are 2 distinct sharp edges making a spark much more likely to successfully develop.  I'll touch on the other posts later when I get time. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 11:25:52 AM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2019, 01:12:53 PM »
with it cut back like the champion....i wonder if that helps with flame front during combustion in the champer as well with less shrouding so to speak?
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2019, 04:46:36 PM »
with it cut back like the champion....i wonder if that helps with flame front during combustion in the champer as well with less shrouding so to speak?
Absolutely the reason for it.That is also why a plug like it will normally require a bit less advance timing.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2019, 04:57:13 PM »
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

this i do not know, but would like to


i have tried the version with the v groove in the electrode. i have not tried the model with multiple ground straps.
Have a bit of time to answer this one. More on the others later.

Many people are under the impression that they generate multiple sparks. This is wrong. A plug only generates one spark per coil firing.

The split fire was designed to allow a longer plug service life.  A spark will always take the path of least resistance. With multiple edges available ,the wear that occurs to the ground strap is spread over more edges. This in effect cuts gap opening wear in half or so and allows service life to be increased the theory is. Then the marketing gurus saw an opportunity to hype them as multiple spark plugs even though it is totally false. This info is from the other manufactures. Same exact thing with multi ground strap designs. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2019, 06:55:17 AM »
well i am glad you took the time to contact the manufacturers. that is the only way to get answers anymore. that champion plug at first glance looks tricky to gap but i can see it now. i think i will have to try a set of those to see as i know the irridium plugs i use now do have a seat of pants effect vs the standard copper style.  so i understand what your saying.....the larger the gap, hotter the spark the less timing advance one would need? obviously were not talking about pulling 10* of timing  but some. maybe that's why i feel the diff in a better plug if mike is correct that these motors ( turbo 2.3) can run 27* at 20 psi in high load cells and i am 17*.  it will be interesting to see how well dougs turns out.  i have been contemplating going back to the stock length gm plug wire in the lower resistance wires of course and mounting my coils on the valve cover along with the ign 1a coils and i think i may try those champion plugs if they offer them in the correct size for my application. i have never been a fan of champion brand plugs as i have never gotten any good life out of them but it has been years since i tried them.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2019, 06:41:47 PM »
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? 1ms or less. Some are as fast as .5msCan they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I see you know the answer to the last questions.I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.

i do know that we are not actually " blowing the spark out" just a term commonly used on the net so i do so for all to follow along.
 
gm ls coils are claimed to run safely up to 4.5 ms before saturation and auto ign becomes an issue. auto ignition is to be avoided at all costs lol very bad lol.  that would be gm ls coils and not the internet knock off specials.  now with shorter spark plug wires and running seq as i am and not wasted spark, i would think i and enemy's would have better recharge times for proper dwell. also have to remember we run the cas system so no dizzy where a number on those forums run dizzy'z.

like i said earlier i have tried the stock plugs, i then tried the split fire iridium many say not too and now just iridium. i can tell a diff and they are def better then stock copper core plugs.  now that champion looks intriguing Here is some info I was given .I believe it addresses a couple things.
  Copper is one of the best conductors of electricity and heat, but they just plain dont last mileage wise. Iridium & Platinum last 10 fold longer thus the reason why auto manufactures use these. Coppers can last 5K miles if the engine is operating optimally. Platinum and Iridium plugs have a center electrode (fine-wire) that is thin. Under high boost application they get so hot they will begin to "heat glow" and cause premature ignition in the combustion cycle (pre-ignition => detonation) unless they were properly designed to pull the heat. This is a problem for all of the turbo guys running high boost. Copper on the other hand, has a much thicker center electrode, on top of that, the copper material is able to dissapate heat from the combustion chamber fast enough to keep the combustion temperatures lower. Coppers use thicker electrodes simply based on the fact that they can easily jump the spark, whereas platinum and iridiums will require a fine wire to better direct the spark to prevent missfires.

Remember the TWO primary functions of a sparkplug:
1) To efficiently ignite the A/F mixture without missfires (gap..etc)
2) To pull heat from the combustion chamber into the head, where the cooling system should dissapate that heat. (Heat Range)

A platinum/Iridium plug in a colder heat range usually runs just as hot as a copper in the standard heat range when under high stress. So many people will use a Platinum/Iridum plug TWO steps colder to counter that. But using a plug that is 2 steps colder, will lead to two things:

1) More prone to carbon-fouling on "normal driving" where EGT's are kept low. (Plugs must stay above 550C Deg to burn off excess carbon deposits to "self-clean")
2) As a result, loss of horsepower from a less efficient/inhibited spark.

You need a plug that is actually "hot enough" to ignite the A/F mixture as hot as possible to get the most efficient combustion, as well as burn off carbon-deposits (~550C deg), and yet cold enough to prevent pre-ignition when compression is high (< 870C Deg).


another thought is that where i am running a lower resistance wire than stock LS wires i am slighter longer. i have wondered what factor that could throw in as well. I have that  info somewhere but IIRC ,the higher the resistance in the coil to plug gap circuit the higher the voltage will be and the lower the delivered amps. Hence the general use of helically wound low resistance core wires. Helical wound for EMI suppression which is critical to our ECU's those ign 1a coils are higher mj and offer longer spark duration. now i may not even have the mj of the gm as mine are probably not original gm coils. i ran .024 gap before and it ran fine up to 25 psi as well but stumbled beyond. i set them at .020 for the last trip and planned on adding some duty cycle to send it back to 30 but with the exh leak i knew my 02 sensor wasn't going to be right so i left it as is and enjoyed the trip. while it's tore apart i plan on making a change. so great discussion.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2019, 06:52:56 PM »
well i am glad you took the time to contact the manufacturers. that is the only way to get answers anymore. that champion plug at first glance looks tricky to gap but i can see it now.From what I undestand you won't change it's gap but just slightly.It might not work well for you but the NGK cutbacks should allow a  bit more gap adjustment i think i will have to try a set of those to see as i know the irridium plugs i use now do have a seat of pants effect vs the standard copper style.  so i understand what your saying.....the larger the gap, hotter the spark the less timing advance one would need? obviously were not talking about pulling 10* of timing  but some. Maybe 1 degree but it shows how much better the flame front is propogated.maybe that's why i feel the diff in a better plug if mike is correct that these motors ( turbo 2.3) can run 27* at 20 psi in high load cells and i am 17*.  it will be interesting to see how well dougs turns out.  i have been contemplating going back to the stock length gm plug wire in the lower resistance wires of course and mounting my coils on the valve cover along with the ign 1a coils and i think i may try those champion plugs if they offer them in the correct size for my application. You'd have to call them. The ones that fit my SB2.2 heads are only offered in 3 heat ranges equivalent to NGK 8,9,9.5i have never been a fan of champion brand plugs as i have never gotten any good life out of them but it has been years since i tried them.Same here but I'll be at least trying what this engine had in it initially. I probably should post an brief update on the old cup engine conversion.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2019, 07:10:09 PM »
here is an interesting concept........ a person i have spoken with but do not actually know or have met, runs a dual plug head ( dp head). in the ranger n/a 2.3 4 cyl engines say 97 and later i think, they made dp heads which i believe was for emissions. now BO ( the person i speak of) runs an older pantera ecu that allows him to run all 8 coils. he runs fords coil on plug ( cop) which look similar to the busa coils that i call stick coils. he is able to fire the 2nd set of 4 coils off 9* later than the primary 4 coils and has gained some midrange and top end from this on the dyno.I saved this for last. I honestly don't know what to think other than I gotta see back to back dyno sheets of all coils firing at same BTDC timing and then with 4 firing 9* later, In the meantime I will just say I'm skeptical,VERY skeptical. as i said i do not know him, he is a friend of a friend and have only spoken with him, but i do believe him as i can see this. he too runs a turbo 2.3 on e85 with the same size inj's and pump as i do.

another interesting talk i had, with the guy rebuilding dougs 2.3 engine, was that the conservative hot and cold timing maps included with out ecu's from stinger are both overly conservative lol. again i do not know this guy but he is very passionate about the the turbo 2.3's and has built quite a few all tuned on the dyno. we didn't discuss what kind of dyno  and he does not tune them himself but has a good understanding of it. he makes 500 rwhp  out of his 2 current turbo 2.3's ( ones stuffed in a beetle lol ) and has one high comp n/a 2.3. the interesting part was when he told me he makes that at only 20 psi boost. now obviously that is a larger turbo than i run and that deducts from lower rpm spool time. i did not get a chance to ask which coils he ran as we  discussed other things, such as he spins his to 8200 rpm and dougs engine. he asked what my timing was at 20 psi at higher load cells as he runs 27*, we both run e85 fuel. the stinger hot ign map at 5k rpm and 320 kpa is 17* as i am looking at it right now and at 6500 rpm and 320 kpa is 18.5*.  he also told me based on his experience in the 2.3 realm that my 200 psi cold cranking comp test  vs stock 140 psi is actually closer to 10.5:1 rather than the 9:1 comp ratio i believe it to be.  he started to explain why the 2.3 is a trickier engine to calculate than most but the conversation was re directed back to 27* advance timing. we all know what that equates to !! the tuner he works with apparently is well versed with the 2.3 engines as well as several turbo e85 engines.  again i do not know this guy and have only spoken with him as he is re building dougs engine. he is as passionate about the 2.3's as spec was/is about jerkey!  ;D  reminded me of paul ( spec ) on the phone.
I'm sorry but that speaks for itself....................I would just say start conservative on timing to avoid detonation while being aware that too retarded is just about as bad as too advanced. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 07:18:14 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2019, 07:07:31 AM »
good info for all
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2019, 11:46:41 AM »
i find the low angled ground electrode .....A smaller electrode requires less voltage to jump the gap, resulting in fewer misfires, which translates to increased fuel economy and horsepower.  A smaller electrode also reduces flame quenching. 
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience