Author Topic: turbo selection  (Read 2262 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2019, 07:17:54 AM »
so i thought would add to this about the 6758 efr turbo selection........... so i can say that on data logs , i see 1 psi boost as low as 900 rpm on a dead stop take off. i am still pertty sure my mechanical timing is retarded alot but we will see soon enough.  the efr turbo hits 30 psi rediculously fast as in pretty much anything over 2500 plus rpm i can go from 10% tps to 90% and control boost level by foot. very impressive little turbo, expensive but very impressive!!  i pulled the rail in fri to start tear down but wound up having to work on something else. so i hope to start this weekend. i will be sending the trans off and while the engine is on the stand it will get a new head and timed properly using a degree ring!  also the ls coils i have been using as has enemy.....are just not strong enough over 25 psi. enemy bought ign 1a coils and i think i will be too. i  believe he was down to .0016 plug gap at 30 psi plus to keep it from blowing spark out. the ign 1a coils are a little hotter lol i can get away with .020 gap up to 25 psi. in fact with the Ls coils i can get away with .024 gap up to 25 psi. go over that and there is just not enough energy there, of course e85 may have something to do with this also. not sure
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2019, 09:09:17 AM »
i havent bought the coils yet but i should've as i will have to make new mounts for them and prob wires. so all the info on the ford turbo 2.3 forums is that ls coils work great. here's the part that has me wondering why enemy and i have issues and the vast majority do not. i have even posted that question and no one has a reasonable answer lol  so i'm obviously  on and off the throttle more than someone on a track. i have higher compressions than most at 9:1 vs stock 8:1.  stock comp they say 145 psi for a cold crank comp test......my weakest cyl is 195 and best is 200 psi. enemies c/r is 8.25:1 and i dont know about comp test. the interesting part is we both have flame blow out about the same rpm ish. so i really wonder A. how many push 30 plus psi....... B. how many do it on e85.  i say this as with more fuel i would guess more to flood a plug along with higher air flow.

when doug had his rail ( turbo 2.3) dynond the first thing that tuner said was plugs are too hot. so he swapped them out to colder ones. those were the same plugs i and enemy used w/o issue and at 10 to 15 psi higher levels than dougs engine. most on the forum say no irridium or platinum plugs just copper but the platnum actually perform better in the form of better throttle response and noticable to myself. 
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2019, 01:03:25 PM »
current coils ac delco coil d514a 

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ign-1a-race-coil/
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2019, 01:30:42 PM »
really isn't crap for info on the ls coil i run.  The dwell time for an LS2 coil at 13 volts is 3.15ms, taken directly from an LS2 ecu

interesing info on this site   http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=61256
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2019, 08:37:38 AM »
Why don't you guys just run MSD or something better instead of trying to piece together a system that works no better and be done with it?  BTW,just my opinion,those dinky plug gaps are not good in any sense of the word. A nice big spark beats a dinky spark every time.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Enemy

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2019, 11:50:10 AM »
"My Spark Disappeared" ?
No thanks lol. That would be a step backward! We are running a sequential system just as good or better than oem, problem is EBAY LS "style" coils. Questionable as to what quality we got, but i have them supporting 450ish hp outa 4 holes with a .016 gap. I get blow-out with anymore boost, and I will run a proven reliable coil with more dwell to fix that with more gap. And it's apple to oranges, but the old school turbo 2.3 dudes are pushing over 700+ blowing 35 psi through a carb, a distributor with plugs gaped at .08ish spinning 8000 rpm and a single coil. No MSD.
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2019, 01:22:34 PM »
BS. Nothing wrong with msd 6or7 series . Not saying there's anything wrong with what you guys are doing but you are having/have had issues apparently .  I've run msd systems for 20+ years w
Ithout missing a beat. Plenty joules for you too. BUT, I do understand where you are coming from. Carry on. 8)
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2019, 05:51:31 PM »
Do any of the high boost guys use a cutback side electrode?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2019, 07:10:17 AM »
i cannot say if they do or not, i can say that most statements i see on the ford forums are stick with oem old school copper plugs.  i have wondered about the no foul plugs used in two stroke boat motors.  i cannot find the article i read but i do remember reading somewhere that the ign a coils were developed for a marine application again if i remember right lol   

enemy has closed his gap to .016 i think, and i have set mine at .020 and turned my tables down to 25 psi and honestly 25 psi is plenty but 30 to 35 is just more fun  ;D ;) LMAO    i would pre fer to run maintain .020 or get back to .024 gap which is why i have been looking at the ign 1a coils.   i could be wrong but the smaller the gap the colder the spark.





« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 07:14:26 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2019, 07:12:38 AM »
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2019, 01:22:59 PM »
i cannot say if they do or not, i can say that most statements i see on the ford forums are stick with oem old school copper plugs. i have wondered about the no foul plugs used in two stroke boat motors.  i cannot find the article i read but i do remember reading somewhere that the ign a coils were developed for a marine application again if i remember right lol   

enemy has closed his gap to .016 i think, and i have set mine at .020 and turned my tables down to 25 psi and honestly 25 psi is plenty but 30 to 35 is just more fun  ;D ;) LMAO    i would pre fer to run maintain .020 or get back to .024 gap which is why i have been looking at the ign 1a coils.   i could be wrong but the smaller the gap the colder the spark.





True no matter what the boosted or race application. We can go into why later if you wish. "marine plugs are resistor plugs that use an inductive resistor for the MARINE specific CD ignitions such as Evinrude and another one or 2. Using those plugs with anything other than those few marine cd ignitions will burn out the resistor and permanently kill the plug from any further use. Yes,MSD and other automotive are cd ignitions but they do not function as the marine cd ignitions. Again,more on that later if you wish.

Now let's discuss this notion of blowing out the spark. It DOES NOT happen. Period. What occurs is the spark cannot develop in the first place for just one reason. There are too many oxygen molecules in the gap. The wider the gap the more molecules that can be jammed into the gap. Oxygen and all the other gasses making up our atmosphere are actually insulators and poor conductors.Soooo,the higher the boost,the more insulators are in a gap. Narrowing the gap is just a band-aid for a weak ignition system. The more joules that can be developed by the ignition system,the wider the gap can be. It's just the facts of the matter. I don't care who the manufacturer is. What is the advantage of a tight gap? Basically none and should be avoided. What are the advantages of a wider gap? Welll,a larger,hotter spark kernal that is exposed to a lot more of the fuel to initiate combustion. That's what.

Bottom line is that you need a higher energy ignition system. All there is to it. You are correct ,the smaller the gap the cooler the spark and the more likely it can be quenched . What is spark quench? It is a spark without enough energy to maintain itself due to too low temperature and is basically absorbed back into the center electrode before combustion can be initiated. Nothing that can happen to a spark is even remotely the same as blowing it out. It is just a weak ignition system.

That surface discharge plug you posted is a very limited use plug for rotaries and other specialty use that will not perform well in most things at all.

You CAN get back to .020 or .024 or even more. It's not an issue,not ven black magic,just get your available joules up to what is needed by either buying a proven system or piecing together something that works with enough experimentation.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2019, 01:37:26 PM »
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 01:55:25 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2019, 01:50:25 PM »
BTW,most forum posters are FOS. There are only a very few forums that I have found with truly informed members. Most are full of dimwits that know a lot about hearsay BS but never bother to dig till they find where the real knowledge lies.It figures though since most of those guys hide from the know it all,won't listen to a thing forum gurus. When I call the manufacturers and get far enough along the chain,I never,ever question what they are willing to share. I just ask for all the info I can get. THEN,usually they get pretty willing to share. Ya better have done your homework first though since they can spot an imposter/uninformed in a heartbeat and they will clam up faster than you can blow out a spark. :m

"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2019, 02:03:11 PM »
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? Can they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo selection
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2019, 07:51:27 AM »
i did find a pic of the Champion c61hcx, i am intrigued. i did not find any real info on it. i wonder if ngk makes a similar plug?

Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience