Author Topic: sand rail design  (Read 1074 times)

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Offline Baloo

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sand rail design
« on: August 02, 2018, 02:43:06 AM »
ok I have dropped my engine into my sxs and I don't like the car subframes now they look …………….. er well  pants,  anyway I always saw this as a prototype and might remake the chassis with out using the subframes but that led me to start looking at pictures of sand rails they look much neater with a transaxle as it all appears uniform or balanced, maybe this is what I should build after the sxs, so the question is does anyone here sell plans or kits or could we do a virtual design its probably the suspension I will struggle with, no sand dunes over here so suspension travel can be modest  maybe 12to 18 inches ?  would still be a car engine and box probably the audi v6 as it comes with a transaxle and is fairley short so it dosent push the seats to far forward                                                                                                                                                                                            thanks   Andy

Offline dsrace

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2018, 03:45:25 PM »
normally i wouldn't post a set of plans that had to be purchased. i have a set i cannot find now and the company went out of business way back when. if i find them i will post them. here is a pic though.

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Online fabr

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2018, 07:48:36 PM »
That's too bad,I always enjoy what you have came up with. A good fabber will always know when to either come up with a new plan or when to throw in the towel.

 Let's see if we can get some ideas floating around. To start with what wheel base and track width are you approx shooting for?  What engine physical size approx? What power are you looking for? 2wd or 4? As far as wheel travel a LOT can be done with 12" or even less depending on what you have envisioned for this project. I'm ,at this point considering what you were trying to do with this last effort,thinking you may even only need 10" or so.  Really well tuned 12" is a whole lot better than most with 16-20" and half assed shocks/tuning.

How much are you wanting to fab or are you wanting to try and use OEM stuff?  Give us some idea of your goal and let's see where this goes.
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the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
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Online fabr

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2018, 08:01:31 PM »
I just re read your post. I think I'm a bit off base with the reply but ................ we can still start the dialog.

 I never thought I'd ever suggest using this a-holes plans but I have to admit they are VERY good plans if you really want to fab a buggy that will actually be pretty damn capable.The plans are very,very complete and I can attest from personal experience they are accurate. Pretty cheap also. I assume you are wanting to do a 2 seater? If not he has single seat plans as well.  Here is a link to his 2 seater. Take a look.  https://rorty.net/r82s
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Online fabr

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2018, 08:57:13 PM »
Here is another of his 2 seat buggies. 195AUD   195 AUD =110.345GBP   Damn cheap for the most complete plans available. Aesthetically ,they can be tweaked a lot but the suspension design/geometry both front and rear is well designed. https://rorty.net/r16-shotgun-ii-0
« Last Edit: August 02, 2018, 09:02:28 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2018, 01:26:12 AM »
normally i wouldn't post a set of plans that had to be purchased. i have a set i cannot find now and the company went out of business way back when. if i find them i will post them. here is a pic though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  hi,  would be interesting to see them but don't post up anything your not happy to do , that pic is what I had in mind more or less but shorter as a 2 seater

Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2018, 01:31:37 AM »
I just re read your post. I think I'm a bit off base with the reply but ................ we can still start the dialog.

 I never thought I'd ever suggest using this a-holes plans but I have to admit they are VERY good plans if you really want to fab a buggy that will actually be pretty damn capable.The plans are very,very complete and I can attest from personal experience they are accurate. Pretty cheap also. I assume you are wanting to do a 2 seater? If not he has single seat plans as well.  Here is a link to his 2 seater. Take a look.  https://rorty.net/r82s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               hi,   the sxs is still very much alive and will be finished before I start another  but would like to play around with the suspension design for a sandrail,  I have the R16 plans on cd somewhere I bought them years ago from  rorty ( in Australia ? )         anyway I was wrong in asking for plans as I have a set of components and the suspension needs to fit them I guess rather than build to someone elses plans                         

Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 01:43:23 AM »
so heres what started this rolling ,  I have inherited this vw passat, same as audi A6 I think                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              this uses a V6 all alloy engine with around 200 bhp,  gear box is a transaxle so I can have equal length drive shafts and double A arm suspension ?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 gearbox looks something like this                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          the front vw passat hubs look like they bolt in so would be easy to bolt into a fabricated rear  upright assembly ?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     the v6 passat using the transaxle obviously has equal length drive shafts like this                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    but the 4 cylinder passat has a transverse engine and so it has a long and a short drive shaft so an option to use 2 long driveshafts like this might exist to push the wheels out further allowing longer A arms                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:47:51 AM by Baloo »

Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 01:46:43 AM »
sorry about the spacing of my text my key board is having a hissy fit right now, the return key refuses to function at all

Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2018, 08:44:36 AM »
I finally got round to stripping the passat to get the drivetrain for a sand rail,
I will get some hard measurements in the next few days
dsrace did I see some pics of rear hubs you made/sold somewhere on here, is that where you would start ?





Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2018, 12:04:33 PM »
right I stripped of some of the crap so we can see the engine and box a bit better




the distance between the output flanges on the gearbox is 11"   but the point that the driveshafts seem to pivot around at the gearbox end is another 2.5" further out on each side  giving a total of 16"   is that where i want the A arms to pivot around

the driveshafts will push into the housing at the gearbox end around 2.5"  they also have plunge? on the other end too

will do some marverlous felt tip drawings later



Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2018, 12:17:22 PM »
on the audi/passat I took the engine out of it had double A arm on the rear ,   but the pivot points for the arms of massively offset with the lower arms pivoting 5" further in than the uppers, does this not cause the wheel to tip over and not rise and fall vertically ?


 




and just for reference  the axle would look like this if it was all clean and shiny

« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 12:54:02 PM by Baloo »

Offline dsrace

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2018, 01:02:02 PM »
right I stripped of some of the crap so we can see the engine and box a bit better




the distance between the output flanges on the gearbox is 11"   but the point that the driveshafts seem to pivot around at the gearbox end is another 2.5" further out on each side  giving a total of 16"   is that where i want the A arms to pivot around

the driveshafts will push into the housing at the gearbox end around 2.5"  they also have plunge? on the other end too

will do some marverlous felt tip drawings later

very interesting and at 11" you are just about spot on compared to the vw transporter vanagone  ( commonly called 091) trans. so i wonder if you can remove the tail end of that trans that i assume was for the rear diff in a awd design? those inner cv's are tri pod's and are very weak so see if the  outer used the same axle spline and can swap that cv off the rear diff drive axle to the inners? this will be very interesting!
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Offline dsrace

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2018, 01:05:28 PM »
on the audi/passat I took the engine out of it had double A arm on the rear ,   but the pivot points for the arms of massively offset with the lower arms pivoting 5" further in than the uppers, does this not cause the wheel to tip over and not rise and fall vertically ?


 




and just for reference  the axle would look like this if it was all clean and shiny




if you also notice there also mounted at an angle like a rake angle. remember the car only has like 4 to 6" of travel so they get away with those positions for better handling in light smaller packaging. the purpose of all that is to achieve neg/pos camber control, to roll the suspension back over a bump and control bump steer etc etc all in one through prob a 4" stroke if one accounts for the bump stop. this is my opinnion as i am not a vw engineer.
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Offline Baloo

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Re: sand rail design
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2018, 01:48:33 PM »
I agree that's what I figured 4" of travel on a good day
anyway lets forget  about that and move onto something with 12" of travel


and it was these hubs I was thinking about



, do you sell them and any idea about cost of shipping to uk ?  think it will be prohibitively  expensive,   and my hubs will have different bolt spacing as well