Author Topic: DS a-arm kit information needed.  (Read 6568 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2018, 07:27:10 PM »
 LMAO ya i do get side tracted from time to time lol
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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2018, 07:33:12 PM »
so lets put this back on topic just for punkur  ;) ;D   

this will be a bit lengthy  ;D

     so interesting email last week. dale from sand parts.com emailed me with a question from his customer ( the pics of the baja bug) asking if there was a diff rack that would fit as he feels the front end steers to fast. i replied stating this is the first time i have ever been asked this question. its not a go to answer like most places that say "we've never heard of that issue before" lol personal favorite of mine. however in this case i have never heard this question asked so i was intrigued. so i replied stating there are 2 style steering quickeners available through speed way motors. i attached direct links as this makes understanding by seeing what i`m speaking of easier imo. i linked 1.5 :1 and 2:1 and said flip them over and reduce. i have never tried it but in theory i think it would work?!? after responding i asked dale for the customers contact info as i would like to understand such a request.

dale cc'd me into the reply and informed the customer of this and asked permission for contact info to be given. now i fully appreciate this approach. so his response said ya definitely , he would like to ask some questions and included his cell #. he also said he is trying to tame down the bump steer. now the issue has changed now and not surprising as we all perceive things differently but i also know that many do not align my front ends as stated and this will create bump. a trailing arm  rear end also not properly aligned will set the front end into what could  be perceived as bump steer as well. username deano experienced this after i personally converted his chassis then called me and i knew for a fact it wasn't the front end as i set it on the money before it left! so i asked that he and transman check the rear as i didn't and should've.

i called the customer and chatted a bit about his issue. now based on the pics and what he told me on the phone he has done a very good job on the install.  his complaint was that while driving down a rutted dirt road or trail that every rut or washout hole he hit that the wheel would twitch left of right. i asked if the front end was steering left or right as well. he said no it tracks straight as he can let go of the wheel and it continued straight but the wheel would twitch left and right, back and fourth. didn't matter if the wheel stroked 2" or 15" it's the twitch or jerk in the wheel but again doesn't self steer back and fourth.


the reason i post this as i would like some input from others........i call this steering feed back however is there another term for this?  with a manual rack and pinion i don't believe you can tune feedback out but can minimize it with a shock like the stock vw's used or eps ( electric power steering). i know my eps took 95% of the feed back out depending on level of assist.

now also, come to find out, he had a slight mishap, bent one lower a-arm, understands why/ how and openly admits it was his fault. he didn't care as he wanted a narrower front end any way so he made a jig and built new arms but 2" shorter per side i believe. he said the steering wheel does the same as is did before down a very harsh road. he is also running 10" wide tires up front as well.  it sounded like he understood and caught the design in my a arms that most don't and included it in his new arms. he has not aligned the front end as i specified as he wanted it just a little different. such changes will effect bump steer but for those that know and understand front ends, he is only using 18" out of 24" travel so this minimizes bump steer if the design is good to close. when we run across the rutted out sand at LS i feel what i call feed back in my wheel before eps.now i don't and it's wonderful!  ;)


so to sum it all up.....

what idea's do others have to reduce feedback with a manual rack and pinion?

i know this isn't bump steer ( in it's most known form)  in the sense the front end steers left or right but just the steering wheel twitch's back and fourth. 
  would you call this feedback?

i did suggest fast's rack snuggy for adjustments but as we all know this will have nothing to do with a steering wheel twitching.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:05:21 PM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2018, 08:08:22 PM »
one thing to note also is he chose a wider rim with a higher offset along with a wider tire so if you look in the pics the scrub is off a bit. the spindles have a true 10* sai ( king pin angle) with a 8.5" spacing top to bottom. note that all that look like these at shops like kustom 1 or moore parts etc etc are not 10* as advertised they are in fact 5*. i have bought from 3 diff sources and checked.





also i do have to add that this customer is very pleased overall with the quality and said this was the easiest front end to install. yes that's a plug for myself  ;D ;D rofl 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:13:38 PM by dsrace »
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Online fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2018, 08:15:03 PM »
How much offset do his wheels have?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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Online fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2018, 08:18:59 PM »
oops,question answered. I think the offset greatly exaggerates the feedback he is getting. So does the wider tires. Another thing,how much angle is in the steering shaft uj/uj's? Are they timed correctly?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2018, 10:15:30 PM »
oops,question answered. I think the offset greatly exaggerates the feedback he is getting. So does the wider tires. Another thing,how much angle is in the steering shaft uj/uj's? Are they timed correctly?

all good questions however i didn't ask but based on the pics close to min back space which i belive is 2 or 2.5". we did discuss clocking/timing the u joints on the steering shafts, he didn't know but does now.  yes i agree that will help clocking/timing will/could help.

another thing he said i forgot to mention is that when he drops air psi to 8 psi the effects are greatly reduced. again i consider this feed back up through the steering wheel, if using this term correctly so if not please correct, as the purpose of this forum is to get it correct!!  i do not know the steering angle on the steering u joints either.  now getting the alignment correct will not have a significant effect on  feed back imo but may help to reduce it. based on the pics as well as knowing for sure that the spindle i use ( custom built for me by doug heim btw so credits to doug) do in fact have 10* sai. as such the scrub angle is based on a 31" tall tire on a 6" wide spindle mount rim so in other word center mounted. brakes will move the wheel out so then on say a 5.5" ( more common) a 3.5" back space would be more appropriate. that being said customer that purchase through sand parts.com don't know this as dale doesn't know it. customers that purchase direct via dts do know this as i inform them of this before wheel purchase. i run a 5.5" cms rim with 3.5 back space on 9.50 dirt tires and the 8.80 razor backs.

so i must include that these front ends are designed with 10* caster. the spindles ship with 3- 1/8" thick washers zip tied to a good starting point. these washers are two fold.......for quick adjustment of caster with out loosening heims like shims. the washer on the steering heim allows up to 1/8" shim top or bottom for tie rod placement for6* or 8* caster. i think most of us know what 1/8" up or down on tire rod location does to bump steer when pushing travel to its extreme limits!!!!

 i have tested to know that 8* to 10* work just fine. i know the " industry ideal stated" is 4-6* but i pre fer 10* so that is how i have always set them up. i feel no diff between 8* or 10*. this customer had set them at 6*. again though he is only using 18" travel so it is minimized and seems to be working on the bump steer front. i told him to set at 8* then try 10* and report back.

so he also knows now that one has to set alignment with the wheels off the ground lol but he also discovered that caster on 1 spindle is 6* and 5* on the other. said something must have shifted when setting. this could be true but at the same time when we set these numbers with all bolts loose then when we tighten things move in diff directions and can make unwanted changes. i stress to triple check tighten bolts and re check. simple adjustment to make if once you know what direction every thing is pulled upon tightening.  getting the alignment set just right takes time and patience lol unfortunate i don't practice what i preach as i set mine close 5 years ago and have checked it once since. i know it's " good enough" lol and tracks very well at 80+ mph on the hwy ........don't anyone run them down the hwy, were not designed for that and it's illegal.  :D  rofl  LMAO luckily i don't live in a town or city so just have combines and tractors to pass and waive at  ;) ;)

if you notice the rotor appears to be flush with the inside of the rim. the hub isn't much farther forward or atleast on my front brakes.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 11:00:15 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2018, 10:16:43 PM »
this discussion will be good info for 78crew and his buds fast and jerry when they help.  ;D

i don't put that gusset in the upper a arm anymore and the bumpers were for an idea for a customer. that gusset proved to get in the way of coil overs.






« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 11:00:50 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2018, 10:34:20 PM »
always like these customers ideas/builds.
















« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:38:48 PM by dsrace »
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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2018, 10:04:29 AM »
oops,question answered. I think the offset greatly exaggerates the feedback he is getting. So does the wider tires. Another thing,how much angle is in the steering shaft uj/uj's? Are they timed correctly?

all good questions however i didn't ask but based on the pics close to min back space which i belive is 2 or 2.5". we did discuss clocking/timing the u joints on the steering shafts, he didn't know but does now.  yes i agree that will help clocking/timing will/could help.

another thing he said i forgot to mention is that when he drops air psi to 8 psi the effects are greatly reduced. again i consider this feed back up through the steering wheel, if using this term correctly so if not please correct, as the purpose of this forum is to get it correct!!  i do not know the steering angle on the steering u joints either.  now getting the alignment correct will not have a significant effect on  feed back imo but may help to reduce it. based on the pics as well as knowing for sure that the spindle i use ( custom built for me by doug heim btw so credits to doug) do in fact have 10* sai. as such the scrub angle is based on a 31" tall tire on a 6" wide spindle mount rim so in other word center mounted. brakes will move the wheel out so then on say a 5.5" ( more common) a 3.5" back space would be more appropriate. that being said customer that purchase through sand parts.com don't know this as dale doesn't know it. customers that purchase direct via dts do know this as i inform them of this before wheel purchase. i run a 5.5" cms rim with 3.5 back space on 9.50 dirt tires and the 8.80 razor backs.

so i must include that these front ends are designed with 10* caster. the spindles ship with 3- 1/8" thick washers zip tied to a good starting point. these washers are two fold.......for quick adjustment of caster with out loosening heims like shims. the washer on the steering heim allows up to 1/8" shim top or bottom for tie rod placement for6* or 8* caster. i think most of us know what 1/8" up or down on tire rod location does to bump steer when pushing travel to its extreme limits!!!!

 i have tested to know that 8* to 10* work just fine. i know the " industry ideal stated" is 4-6* but i pre fer 10* so that is how i have always set them up. i feel no diff between 8* or 10*. this customer had set them at 6*. again though he is only using 18" travel so it is minimized and seems to be working on the bump steer front. i told him to set at 8* then try 10* and report back.

so he also knows now that one has to set alignment with the wheels off the ground lol but he also discovered that caster on 1 spindle is 6* and 5* on the other. said something must have shifted when setting. this could be true but at the same time when we set these numbers with all bolts loose then when we tighten things move in diff directions and can make unwanted changes. i stress to triple check tighten bolts and re check. simple adjustment to make if once you know what direction every thing is pulled upon tightening.  getting the alignment set just right takes time and patience lol unfortunate i don't practice what i preach as i set mine close 5 years ago and have checked it once since. i know it's " good enough" lol and tracks very well at 80+ mph on the hwy ........don't anyone run them down the hwy, were not designed for that and it's illegal.  :D  rofl  LMAO luckily i don't live in a town or city so just have combines and tractors to pass and waive at  ;) ;)

if you notice the rotor appears to be flush with the inside of the rim. the hub isn't much farther forward or atleast on my front brakes.

I'LL ADD THAT ,IN GENERAL,THE ALIGNMENT NEEDS SET AT RIDE HEIGHT. Any deviation from that skews the numbers .Put another way pick a height to set it and always use the same height when making changes or you will be chasing your tail.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2018, 10:29:12 AM »
agree

i always lift mine off the ground to set it all. simple to do and always an equal starting point.     everything starts with proper alignment and no denying that but.....that still wouldn't reduce or remove feedback to the steering wheel. not sure there is any way to do that with out a shock dampener like the stock vw used but def agree higher offset tires and wider tires will exaggerate it. wonder if longer steering arms on the spindles would reduce that via leverage???
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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2018, 11:40:36 AM »
agree

i always lift mine off the ground to set it all. simple to do and always an equal starting point.     everything starts with proper alignment and no denying that but.....that still wouldn't reduce or remove feedback to the steering wheel. not sure there is any way to do that with out a shock dampener like the stock vw used but def agree higher offset tires and wider tires will exaggerate it. wonder if longer steering arms on the spindles would reduce that via leverage???
Putting it another way,I think,short steering arms that achieve faster steering ratios like we desire,but it is that fast ratio that will exaggerate the feedback.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2018, 11:49:32 AM »
true in the end the only way to get all you want is to design it for your chassis but not possible in the case of a " universal" fitment.    i dont see a way to tune out feedeback from an a arm front end with a manual rack w/o the use of a shock ( bandaid imo) or eps. eps would be my choice.                      hey enemy have i told you how much i like my powersteering  LMAO  LMAO  LMAO  LMAO :m
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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 11:50:20 AM »
and ya ya i know you really like your 1st gear too  bs1 rofl beathorse.gif~c200 :m
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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 12:06:21 PM »
As for a steering dampner,I have always wondered about using one. I feel it would be a very good addition but haven't seen anyone do it.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 12:09:52 PM »
I haven't noticed any dramatic reduction in the feedback with EPS,just a LOT easier steering.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)