Author Topic: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion  (Read 20075 times)

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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #405 on: September 04, 2017, 08:57:15 AM »
so the one time i saw the vac gauge on tuner studio it read 15" vac(approx 57kpa). now that was a fresh motor with 0 runtime. i don't know current vac at idle. so i'm pulling the turbo today so plug pics that way are out. i believe i have a hole in the flex coupler on dp 2 to 4" above my 02 sensor.Flow some propane from an unlit propane torch around the area and see if the O2 reading changes as you do so. No need to do the work till you are sure it needs done.

when you say set timing where vac is highest....do you mean electronic timing advance through tuner studio? other wise there isn't a way to do so while the engine is running. i don't have a distributor.  that timing map comes in stingers flash drive for base maps. You can't alter timing with the engine running with your system?Why? I can with my software. My efi controls and I can make changes  in real time. Even if you can't,you can make initial timing changes and then restart to engine to see differences. we have not altered that timing map at all as it is a safe timing map.Safe and wrong. stinger says to add timing down low in the low rpm cells for take off. he said that is the strategy used on auto trans as they don't have the ability to rev rpms on take off like a manual. True,and when you get it right at idle you will have your max idle vacuum.again part of this issue is my gearing i know this but on the same note i took off in 2nd gear in dougs and steves.....1 to 2 psi boost comes in quick and those rails take off no issue after that, mine is over a 1000 rpm later in the rpm band. IMO,as I have said  before,it's your tune and you verify you have not done a thing to the ignition tune and your off boost fuel is too lean for your cam. There's your issue/s . That "safe" ignition tune is crap. All that you are redoing will be disappointing as well if you don't do the ignition tune,especially with a cam that is significantly different from what stinger set the ignition tune for. If it were me,I'd do a lot more tuning before I threw the baby out with the bath water.
Honestly,from what I'm reading from you,you just want a tractor that runs like a top fuel. That ain't a gonna happen. You need to choose one or the other. That said,there's no reason what you have now can't be made to work much,much,much better with some ignition and fuel tuning that suits your combo. Your timing is off and so is the fueling.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:12:43 AM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #406 on: September 04, 2017, 09:02:58 AM »
i agree and am trying to learn but i got enough mind warps going on lol jon speaks that language though. the ecu, in the setting selected, recalculates stoich to lamba for my afr based on alcohol content for afr reading for me. i do not have the flex sensor active for the ecu to make changes based on that yet. once tuned then closed loop can be selected and flex can command changes.
I know Jon speaks it but he is tuning it like a pretty much stocker with a turbo added. It shows in the tune charts.  You have a cammed up engine that will require significantly different tune. If the tune is off on a stocker the engine will overlook it a bit. With a cammed up engine not so much. You are not overly cammed though by any stretch of the imagination.

If you have any exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor ,or even after since O2 can and will revert into the exhaust for a long way, you will have zero luck getting it to run well period no matter your combo.

 I'd like to have seen a log more than your settings also. IMO,you're just throwing in the towel way too soon.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:16:42 AM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #407 on: September 04, 2017, 09:13:41 AM »
Honestly,from what I'm reading from you,you just want a tractor that runs like a top fuel. That ain't a gonna happen. You need to choose one or the other. That said,there's no reason what you have now can't be made to work much,much,much better with some ignition and fuel tuning that suits your combo. Your timing is off and so is the fueling.

bingo lol i do want a tractor but with a little more punch. i do not need a top fuel but added the cam in hopes of a little more punch. one thing to remember is in the turbo ford post , wessk has degree'd these cams and he says regardless of what engle cams says they have all been 20* or so higher in duration at the valve vs what the cam card says.Yeah,it was on the internet so it must be true..............I doubt he is correct though. This BS of at the cam and at the valve talk is just shadetree mechanics that do not understand. I don't really care if the guy is respected on that forum or not. I am calling BS on it. Yes there can be some small variations but not 20 degrees. All cams have been historically degreed at .050 valve lift and some use .020. There is a reason for this . the initial ramp on a cam is there to take up lash and has almost zero influence on the cams characteristics. If we were to degree the cam from the start of the ramp and compare 10 cams from the same maker you would see some differences from the now preferred method of using lobe centerline that is much more accurate. total lift has been consistant.This confirms what I just said. i can alter timing through tuner studio while the engine is running but i wasn't/ am not understanding how to set timing for max vac. this part alludes me as of right now. Compare the kpa at idle.You already have 57kpa or so and if it can be lowered to even less with initial timing that is what you need to do.This is the starting point for all other tuning. After you achieve your highest vac at idle (lower kpa)you will play with AFR at idle for best quality then you will go back to see if you can find a bit more vac. When you can find no improvement there it is time to move on up the rpm range,not before.

as far as the turbo goes. i took what i read on the sites and talked to the turbo builder who is familiar with the t3/t4 turbonetics. plenty of guys running the holset turbos out there on these little engines. he said this config/ hypbrid holset turbo would spool faster than the t3/t4 and he's right....once it starts to spool it spools up faster to a point. however what i have since learned from several running the holset turbo, that these turbos are like light switch's. they are all about the two step launch's and i am not.  the guy at delta cams did tell me i made the wrong turbo choice for this engine as the holset is a larger frame turbo built for a larger volume to spool it. this explains to me anyway why it's like a light switch as it doesn't get that volume until higher rpms.  With too lean an off boost tune you will not have the volume you need either.I don't believe you should be listening to some of those posters at all. Again,beating a dead horse ;) but you need your off boost tuned better. OR you can take the easy way out and just be a copier of others combos and live with what you get. :)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:34:55 AM by fabr »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #408 on: September 04, 2017, 09:14:14 AM »
here is a sticky on stingers sight.


Post by Stinger on Jul 10, 2010 at 1:07am
Verify Commanded = Actual Timing
When messing with the timing table, the first priority is to make sure what is commanded on the laptop is the same as the timing number at the engine.

In TunerStudio, go to basic setup > more ignition options > fixed advance and change it from "use table" to "fixed timing". Then make sure "timing for fixed advance is set to 20". This will lock the commanded timing at 20 degrees. With the engine running, put a timing light on the #1 plug wire and point it at the crank pulley. Verify that timing is at 20 degrees BTDC. If it isn't, rotate the distributor until the timing is 20 degrees BTDC. Tighten up the distributor hold down, verify timing is still 20 degrees, then go into the same location in TunerStudio and put it back to "use table".

Ideal Timing Theory
Timing is somewhat difficult to explain, way more difficult than fuel. Ideal timing varies from engine to engine for a number of different reasons.

The only proper way to find ideal timing for your particular engine is to put it on a dyno and start testing. When testing on a dyno, you start with timing below where you think "ideal" is and make a pull, add a degree, make another pull. If you picked up significant power on the second pull (6+hp) then add another degree and make another pull. Continue this trend until you get to a point where the hp gain tapers off (only gain a few hp). Remove 2 degrees from this point and that should be a "safe" timing value.

Since most of you will never get on a dyno to do tuning, your best bet is to simply start with a timing map that should be close but conservative (safe) and just use it. If you do testing at the track and find adding a degree or two picks up trap speed then that is great. If you don't gain any mph though, adding timing will only hurt the engine.

The general theory is timing under vacuum can be quite high and will let it cruise around and drive down the highway best with quite a bit of timing to get these little engines to make some power without boost. Once you are running boost, you want timing to be lowest at the rpm where you first reach max boost and then it can slowly increase as rpm increases (going right in the table). You also want timing to decrease as you move up in the table under boost (more boost requires less timing to prevent detonation). So in general, once in boost (above 100% fuel and at an rpm high enough to build boost), the timing numbers will get lower as you move up and higher as you move right.

Idle Timing
Note that the table below has increased timing to the left of the idle cells. This is so if the engine bogs and tries to die when you put it in gear, release the clutch, etc., it will get into those cells with increased timing and this will increase the hp and help to keep the engine from stalling.

Generally there is some amount of "stall saver" timing built into any file you get from us. More can certainly be beneficial. To adjust this, at your target idle speed (typically in the 950-1000 range with a 2.3 or large cam V8) you run purposefully less than ideal timing. I would set the bin the car is actually idling at in this range to about 15 degrees with a factory cam, or 20 with a larger cam. This will require increased idle duty to get the car to idle.

Then in the next rpm column below idle speed (and "up" one cell in terms of load % as well), run a solid 4-5 degrees more timing. This way, if speed drops, the extra timing (which is actually closer to the ideal timing for that set of conditions) will force the engine to accelerate. The idle will also be more stable with the increased airflow/low timing.

With idle timing, engines are always more stable with more airflow, and less timing. When you use close to optimum timing, the engine will be more responsive (which is not necessarily what you want if you don't want speed to change).

The above assumes your wideband is calibrated properly, and the idle fueling (covered in the Tuning Fuel/VE thread) and commanded pulsewidths are reasonable.

The timing table many of you get by default with your Megasquirt system is WAY too aggressive and doesn't follow the timing basics (such as that timing can increase as rpm increases and that timing is lowest when max boost is first reached). My advice would be to start with something similar to what is shown below:

Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/1003/megasquirt-tuning-basics-timing#ixzz4ritMCQ00
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #409 on: September 04, 2017, 09:17:14 AM »
if i'm not mistaken i am dropping to 600 rpm or slightly higher on take off. and yes that table is diff than my current that enemy posted.....i don't know why as it came from stinger.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:28:12 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #410 on: September 04, 2017, 09:22:43 AM »
I know Jon speaks it but he is tuning it like a pretty much stocker with a turbo added. It shows in the tune charts.  You have a cammed up engine that will require significantly different tune. If the tune is off on a stocker the engine will overlook it a bit. With a cammed up engine not so much. You are not overly cammed though by any stretch of the imagination.

If you have any exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor ,or even after since O2 can and will revert into the exhaust for a long way, you will have zero luck getting it to run well period no matter your combo. interesting thing is my cam card duration isn't much diff however now after being informed that my actual duration might be 20* longer i just don't know. so far the delta cam card is correct at valves/ head.

 I'd like to have seen a log more than your settings also. IMO,you're just throwing in the towel way too soon.

lol not really just falling back to what i know works then i'll move forward. i have read several articles on overlap and turbo charged engines. the one constant in all is overlap creates a cooling effect on exh temps for turbo spool up. add the cooler e85 exh and i take that as a compound effect. the one member on turbo ford that has built a couple engines for offroad rangeres said he has had best results for low end tq with the cams with 0 overlap for max cyl psi and higher total valve lift with lower duration times. this is a pic of his cam card from delta cams

i do know that on the 02 and that's why i began checking when the afr's kept getting leaner and leaner, according to gauge.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:26:59 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #411 on: September 04, 2017, 09:38:21 AM »
fyi dougs rail has the same timing map as mine. after driving those rails there is no denying those combos work very well for bottom end. there is no denying that fact, that is where i need to get to, then go from there. i know there is room for improvement from there. as it sits right now it isn't derivable for ls even. not for myself anyway! i really think i could stay in 1st gear for all of ls as i have to stay in the 3 to 6k rpm range for any power. hard to understand until you drive it. at the very least a smaller turbo
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #412 on: September 04, 2017, 09:44:29 AM »
Correct me if I am mistaken but aren't these single overhead cam engines? If so ,there is no way to set it with zero overlap. Overlap is what it is. That COULD be done with dual overheads though.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #413 on: September 04, 2017, 10:51:51 AM »
yes, single overhead cam....mine with stock HLa's lash adjuster. i think 1.64 to 1 ratio rocker

i don't know $hit about cams or cam profiles or duration or overlap etc etc other than the obvious use of the term.

i do not believe everything i read on line ....again talking about falling back to a proven combo with my timing map as it is the same in dougs. night and day diff in how they run. only real diff is i have 130 inj's he has 100's and i have 9 to 1 comp on a fresh motor and he has 8 to1 and a higher mileage motor. same harness and same ecu, and same fuel as he used mine as i couldn't. i have a higher volume intank pump he has a bosch 044 frame rail mount. those two rails have the next larger dia valve than i do but same roller rocker and hla's.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:03:34 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #414 on: September 04, 2017, 11:53:05 AM »
the way enemy has been tuning this motor is to get the afr range safe before making any changes to timing or anything else. haven't had a lot of run time. when i told him the take off was poor we started looking at other things. the last day at st a the afr gauge started reading lean as in 16.9 at times so between that and barely being able to take off i shut it down and parked it. have to have a solid afr map first before anything else.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #415 on: September 04, 2017, 12:07:52 PM »
this was wessk's statement.......


What did you ever figure out with the items I told you to look into? Never heard response on forum. As bad as you said off idle transient response was, there is certainly some issue, regardless of where it makes boost.

That being said, if sub 3000 rpm power is important to you, most of the "racey" things people do to these is directionally wrong. The small EFR would certainly be a good selection, but if you want to make power with small displacement, gearing it so it can turn RPM is critical.

What valve lift is your head good for currently? Directionally, I think you would be most happy with having your existing Engle ground for less duration and the most lift you can package. Engles valve events on that card are at the lobe not valve. This means that that "222/218" is really "246/242" at the valve. If you want to compare it to an Esslinger or Snyder grind, they are at the valve.

Snyder will grind it however you want for under 200$ on your existing cam. Determine how much lift you can safely package, and have 20 degrees duration chopped off and I think you will be happy all around.



Lots of people have experience with similar camshafts. None of these people have your gearing and tires.

I ran one 10 years ago in mustang, and had one in my RX7 until I stuck a valve and damaged the #1 exhaust lobe. I played around with a few essy grinds, and that is when I figured out the Engle is lobe lift, and when comparing to other 2.3 cams it will act about 20 degrees bigger. I ultimately had my Engle re ground for a touch more lift,and a touch less duration.

My application is a 2700 lb weight car, with a 3.97 first, and a 3.73 rear end. I have ZERO use for sub 3000 rpm power, and as long as the engine will run and slowly accelerate the car, I don't care what it does there.

Unless you want to try a stock ranger cam, the cheapest (and best) thing for you to do is have your existing roller re ground. Directionally it is very easy to go in the direction that will improve low speed performance. Keep the lift up where it is, shrink duration to the 220 at the valve range, and keep LSA at the 112 those cams typically are. If you are planning on a turbo like the EFR, the intake and exhaust duration can be about the same. If you are going to a t3/t4 with a small exhaust housing, I would run 10 degrees less exhaust duration.

If you want good boost below 3000 rpm, you absolutely need a different turbo than you have.

It is VERY easy to check in the car. I can say with 100% certainty my Engle measure 20 degrees bigger that that cam card, and 10 degrees larger than a 2277.

As has been pointed out though, sub 3000 rpm power is never what anyone builds one of these for. If you can't easily gear to actually spin the combo, you would be much happier with a smaller turbo and ranger cam.

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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #416 on: September 04, 2017, 12:14:25 PM »
True,you have issues with likely intake leaks either before or after the O2 sensor. Fix that ,of course,first. That does not preclude the fact that with that cam off boost is too lean afr targets and it will not run well too lean or with bad timing settings.  Each is inter related and both must be approached without excluding the other since each will affect the other whenever either is changed.

 Addressing another point about dynos and tuning there is absolutely no reason that with data logging you can't do as good as and probably better job tuning than any dyno session. Dyno sessions are great for getting well within the ballpark but real world tuning will always be best in the end. IMO........... ;) ;) :)
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #417 on: September 04, 2017, 12:24:31 PM »
this was wessk's statement.......


What did you ever figure out with the items I told you to look into? Never heard response on forum. As bad as you said off idle transient response was, there is certainly some issue, regardless of where it makes boost.

That being said, if sub 3000 rpm power is important to you, most of the "racey" things people do to these is directionally wrong. The small EFR would certainly be a good selection, but if you want to make power with small displacement, gearing it so it can turn RPM is critical.

What valve lift is your head good for currently? Directionally, I think you would be most happy with having your existing Engle ground for less duration and the most lift you can package. Engles valve events on that card are at the lobe not valve. This means that that "222/218" is really "246/242" at the valve. If you want to compare it to an Esslinger or Snyder grind, they are at the valve.

Snyder will grind it however you want for under 200$ on your existing cam. Determine how much lift you can safely package, and have 20 degrees duration chopped off and I think you will be happy all around.



Lots of people have experience with similar camshafts. None of these people have your gearing and tires.

I ran one 10 years ago in mustang, and had one in my RX7 until I stuck a valve and damaged the #1 exhaust lobe. I played around with a few essy grinds, and that is when I figured out the Engle is lobe lift, and when comparing to other 2.3 cams it will act about 20 degrees bigger. I ultimately had my Engle re ground for a touch more lift,and a touch less duration.

My application is a 2700 lb weight car, with a 3.97 first, and a 3.73 rear end. I have ZERO use for sub 3000 rpm power, and as long as the engine will run and slowly accelerate the car, I don't care what it does there.

Unless you want to try a stock ranger cam, the cheapest (and best) thing for you to do is have your existing roller re ground. Directionally it is very easy to go in the direction that will improve low speed performance. Keep the lift up where it is, shrink duration to the 220 at the valve range, and keep LSA at the 112 those cams typically are. If you are planning on a turbo like the EFR, the intake and exhaust duration can be about the same. If you are going to a t3/t4 with a small exhaust housing, I would run 10 degrees less exhaust duration.

If you want good boost below 3000 rpm, you absolutely need a different turbo than you have.

It is VERY easy to check in the car. I can say with 100% certainty my Engle measure 20 degrees bigger that that cam card, and 10 degrees larger than a 2277.

As has been pointed out though, sub 3000 rpm power is never what anyone builds one of these for. If you can't easily gear to actually spin the combo, you would be much happier with a smaller turbo and ranger cam.
I read everything in your topic there. I don't disagree with what he said above but for the at the cam and at the valve crap. That's not terms cam people use to discuss cams and has very little relevance when comparing cams either. IMO,it's just internet talk.  That said,what is written above is pretty accurate . His point about even with a bit large turbo you should not be experiencing what you are is experiencing is echoing all I have been saying as well. You have issues that are not,in our opinions,related to the cam. That doesn't mean there may likely be a better cam but the one you have should not be the cause of the issue you are having.   His last paragraph is spot on for sure.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 12:26:55 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #418 on: September 04, 2017, 12:42:16 PM »
I can only guess that when these guys discuss at the valve and at the cam they are not starting their degreeing at either .020 or .050 cam lift. That could be why he is seeing 20 degrees difference. The clearance ramps can be vastly different between cams and that is why the .020 and .050 became the standard.Eventually,most people I know went to lobe centerlines to further define cam timing since opening/closing  numbers can be misleading when considering where max valve lift occurs. 

After you have fixed all mechanical issues you have such as air leaks and overall gearing then tuned it as best it can be if you are still unsatisfied I'd take his advice on the cam regrind. I agree with him on that for sure.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #419 on: September 04, 2017, 12:45:59 PM »
I don't recall over there but did you get your answer what,if any,optional gear ratios you have available?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)