Author Topic: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion  (Read 21536 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #375 on: August 20, 2017, 10:00:33 AM »
well dougs rail has the same gearing but a 1st gear. you can take off with dougs rail in 2nd gear. it dogs for a second then the turbo starts to light and it walks right out of it. he has 1300 stu paddles. i have sport tires of america also made by stu and they are 14.50's so 1.5" wider and stiffer paddle but same od. l have 1 point higher comp but i have a higher rpm cam apperantly and a hybrid holset turbo. they don't offer a 4.57 r&p for the megasand only a 4.86. but i don't need to do 120 mph anymore so a top speed of 90 mph would be more than fast enough for me as long as i can grunt/tractor around when i want to.
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Offline Carlriddle

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #376 on: August 21, 2017, 06:38:58 AM »
Any mount mods for the 3-4sp trans swap?  You might get by w/ your r&p in that 4sp, but the 4.86 may allow u to keep the cam and be happy with results.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #377 on: August 21, 2017, 11:20:05 AM »
identical trans. i can put 4 speed gears in my case even. i did send a message to see about getting a new r&p late last night. going from a 4.43 to a 4.86 should move my current 1st to 2nd. or give a deep 1st. i will prob have my r&p put in the broken one as its a 4 speeed.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #378 on: September 01, 2017, 01:13:22 PM »
have been trying to gather info about others experiences with the cam i selected....got some good advice but really not a lot of diff peoples personal experiences. here is the discussion

http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=059791;p=1
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Online fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #379 on: September 01, 2017, 05:34:10 PM »
All boiled down, I feel your lack of low end is due to too much overlap and too low compression for e85 to have any off boost grunt. The low compression and e85 burning much cooler than gas hinders spool time. Wanna experiment? Try running 50/50 e85 and see what that does for spool time.  E85 loves compression/hates low compression. That's why you feel such a big boost when the turbo finally spools. The e85 wakes up along with the boost since it "feels" more compression that it craves. You really need a turbo that is a bit smaller , and more static compression,IMO.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 07:20:09 PM by fabr »
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Online fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #380 on: September 01, 2017, 07:42:38 PM »
Brian,the more i read that topic over there the more I am convinced you have tuning issues and would pursue that before I changed a thing. What is your initial timing,what is total timing,when is it all in and are you using any electronic or mechanical vacuum advance?

   What AFR target are you using? Are you using any acceleration enrichment? Have you verified all sensors are good? Checked continuity of sensors? You get the picture I'm drawing, double check everything first.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 07:51:12 PM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Enemy

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #381 on: September 01, 2017, 09:54:58 PM »
DS is finding the in depth about his issues the last couple evenings, the Holset is a major issue no matter cam or tune, and got a bit of info from him last night about the "Hot Pinto" specs he discussed with Delta Cams. He will have to elaborate on that one,, wow..
As far as the tune is concerned, he is running a 24/2 tooth cam angle sensor with full sequential fuel and COP spark with LS coils. Afr targets are spot on commanded, posting a screen shot of the maps, please say something if you see anything out of wac! This is a base timing map from Stinger and will never be perfected unless dyno time is involved but they get them pretty close for a base. I have brought in more timing at high load/low rpms (clutch slip take off) to try and help it out a bit but this car is just not in harmony mechanically. When I drive it, I am looking for a first gear that doesn't exist, and the turbo is a complete mutt until it goes "SQUIRREL!!!" I see it in the VE maps as well.
 When it does go full retard, then holy shit hold the eff on!! And the cam.....wellllll....It just aint fucin right whatsoever...
Ds is on it like turbo squirrel on walnuts though...
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Online fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #382 on: September 01, 2017, 10:12:16 PM »
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Online fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #383 on: September 01, 2017, 10:14:11 PM »
Pull the plugs and post pics clearly showing side electrode.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Carlriddle

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #384 on: September 02, 2017, 04:57:59 AM »
I wondered if the cooler burn effect of e85 was slowing the turbo light?
Been reading a thread about a turbo busa  on e85. Same turbo setup just swapped fuel and it changed the bikes dyno sheet. Came on later but added boost and hp/torque.
I'm doing e85 on this zx12 with the turbo. If life and temps will slow anbit.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #385 on: September 02, 2017, 07:57:31 AM »
All boiled down, I feel your lack of low end is due to too much overlap and too low compression for e85 to have any off boost grunt. The low compression and e85 burning much cooler than gas hinders spool time. Wanna experiment? Try running 50/50 e85 and see what that does for spool time.  E85 loves compression/hates low compression. That's why you feel such a big boost when the turbo finally spools. The e85 wakes up along with the boost since it "feels" more compression that it craves. You really need a turbo that is a bit smaller , and more static compression,IMO.


well that's an interesting thought.....i can def see that but with that being said, i personally drove two other rails at st a with turbo 2.3 engines. both stock 8 to 1 comp, 1 on e85 and other on pump fuel with water meth injection. both are running stock ranger roller cams and stock garrett turbo as in 84 to 86 model year factory equipped 2.3 turbos. the ranger roller cam btw is a stock cam out of a ranger pick up n/a 2.3 engine. they got roller cams where the factory turbo 2.3's were stock slider cams. i have not pulled my rail out of the th'er yet to do anything. had other things i needed to do and was sooooo  disappointed in it at st a i really haven't cared to even look at it to be honest!  so...... dougs rail is on e85 and steve has the other. now my megasand is a 3 speed so what the did was drop 1st gear and make the other 3 wider to be stronger. dougs rail has the same gearing accept  1st as i don't have one. i purposely took off in 2nd gear in dougs rail and steves, many times! both him haw and bog for a second or two then come right out of it, mine doesn't until well over 2k rpm and at or by 2800 the turbo starts to light then hold on! btw i really like that little adrenaline rush when it lights and spools that fast  ;) rofl but having to run 3k to 6k rpm is too fast of a ground speed to transverse over the tops of the dunes at st a and keeps me stuck in my 1st gear. LS i think would be doable as i am more comfortable there but trans could use deeper r&p imo and i am working on that. now with that being said dougs and steves rails take off in 2nd and by say close to 1500 rpm the power start coming on and they will pull any dune and slow up more than enough to grunt over the tops in fact even shifted 3rd and grunted over! steves rail is basically the same 2nd thru 4 but 4.57 r&p vs i and dougs 4.43 r&p.  the huge diff is i have nothing and i mean nothing but mush under 2600 rpm basically give or take 100 rpm.

now .....steve and doug are stock 8 to 1 comp......i am 9 to 1 comp. steve has a pimp ecu using tuner studio, dougs as well. doug and i have the same timing map and steves was but he altered it a tiny touch i think but not 100% sure on that.  i have 130lb inj's doug has 100 lb inj's and steve has stock inj's which is why the water meth. both those rails run circles around mine below 2800 rpm but at that point i could shoot past them like they were standing still lol lol

bo , a friend of scott smith's purchased a garrett 35r turbo with stage 3 exh and he doesn't know comp side .64 are hot side. he loved it but then converted to e85 and it would not spool as fast so he dropped the exh ar to .48 and got all his spool up back. so yes i do agree e85 does burn cooler so that has to be accounted for however that doesn't change the fact that this turbo cam is just not right for this motor for my application. 99% of those members are street strip guys and just cannot understand the offroad side. they can say what ever they want but the fact remains i personally drove 2 other rails with basically the same gearing with same od tires in the same sand on the same days in the same ambient temps and they had all the bottom end!
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Offline Enemy

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #386 on: September 02, 2017, 08:01:32 AM »
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.

e80 the last tank to be exact. MS and Tuner Studio use a "required fuel" settings to set the STOICH value of the fuel being run, in this case around 10.1
This is how it is done to easily run e85 +or - and still use gas targets on target maps and wide band readouts. Many detailed write-ups on the subject
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #387 on: September 02, 2017, 08:42:59 AM »
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.

the program has a conversion table so you can display it this way and ecu make the cal corrections. this was my choice as i spent all the time with the busa looking at afr's and was more comfortable viewing it this way.  my tune isn't much diff than dougs btw and same guy tunning them lol

i can pull plugs and take a pic but while at st a i did just that and they were a light tan color and no soot build up.

now this hybrid holset turbo is def an issue as well. 9cm exh housing is basically like a .65 in a garrett if that helps put it into perspective. after talking to delta cams and out of the 3 cam manufacturers i spoke with , delta cams will have my business from here on out btw! that man took 25 mins out of his day to try and explain and help me understand/set up a cam he neither built not sold. i will be the first to say i just can't read a cam card not do i understand it. i am learning but struggling with it. this person became a little frustrated on the phone but no with me it was with the lack of info on the cam card. where i had already figured out i had made the wrong turbo choice for this app he did politely confirm that for me  LMAO LMAO. all the turbo shops and forum members i read or discussed my wants with for this app using this motor all said " .48 exh is waaaaay to small min .64 well they are all wrong! they are all speaking of at higher rpms which are not needed nor used in the rail on sand as dougs and steves rails proved to me. by 3500 rpm or so those turbos are full on and those rails will easily pull any dune at st a and i mean easily! they are running stock .63 housings but a .48 would light them even faster! however they are smaller frame turbo's as well as in inducer/ exducer wheel sizes. now upon further reading on turbo cams specifically, i found what reads that over lap creates a cooling effect on the turbos so if that's true then coupled with e85 then that issue is amplified let alone those two coupled with a larger frame turbo that requires more flow to light even though its been machined with diff parts to light faster than stock it still is an issue.

wessk ( username on tf) set his up using a degree ring. he stated that with 100% certainty he know his hot pinto cam has an additional 20* duration at the valve vs what the cam card specs out. engle cams that's not true there specs are at valve. delta cam guy says if he's writing the info and not printing it out then he's using ( don't remember the name of the machine so we'll call it A) A machine and where it is acceptable in the industry it is not accurate enough in his opinion which is why they and many other shops use B machine. i will post up cam card and print out from them so you that makes more sense. so.....when i told him this cam doesn't bring power in till 2800 rpm and pulls hard to 7k he said thats 1k rpm long based on the specs on the cam card. then said that this cam should start falling off on power at 6k or abouts. i didn't know at that time that my duration may actually be 20* longer. on a side note it is intersting to see the 3 diff cam cards posted on TF and how all three cam card specs are slightly diff on the same cam.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #388 on: September 02, 2017, 08:50:43 AM »
i'm sure i'm leaving some details out but too many to list but bottom line i need to change cam and turbo and start over. i see an efr turbo in my future after i decide on which cam if i decide to go with a diff cam over the rr cam. i have an rr cam and two stock garrett turbos as well as enemy's turbonetics t3/t4 hybrid with both .48 and .64 exh hotside. i will be going to those so i can make an ls trip in hopes of having some fun finally lol  ;) ;)   

fabr this is why i don't believe it's the tune...not saying 100% that it is not but i am very doubtful of that. i believe it was misinformation on cam choice and turbo choice from street strip guys vs offroaders but have found an offroader that is building his third engine who swares by his cam for bottom end and still breathes better then the rr cam with 0 overlap.

correct me if i am wrong but from what i have read and tried to learn.....higher duration and/or over lap reduces cyl pressure? cyl psi is needed to spool the turbo faster vs rpm as well as to produce lower end power? larger frame turbo's are higher rpm turbos esp with larger exh ar's which are to breath at higher rpms in relation to cyl or manifold back psi?
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #389 on: September 02, 2017, 08:51:23 AM »
cam card
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