Author Topic: Torsion Bar Front Suspension  (Read 2246 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2013, 01:46:12 PM »
While the spring rate of the bar itself is linear, your method of connecting it would make the net result progressive. That is if you watch your lever angles. If at full bump, the lever on the bar is a right angle with the link then greater than 90 as the suspension drops, the effective force the link applies to the arm will be rising rate. This is above an beyond the progressive effect you get from a coil over being leaned over. Make the length of the arm off the torsion bar variable in length.
After reading the thread posted I was thinking the same thing.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Hammerworks

  • Fabricator
  • **
  • Posts: 243
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2013, 02:12:31 PM »
Good read,brought up a lot of good points. Thanks for finding the link.

No problem, I love this shit!

Offline MC

  • Fabricator
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2013, 03:24:15 PM »
Just took a look at the stuff on RDC and all he ever did was to do some drawings, never made a car let alone a good working car. Nice drawings thou.

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2013, 07:13:18 PM »
Yes ,it was not finished. It brought up some good food for thought though.
  There IS a car built recently by Mosebilt that the owners love with torsion bar  suspension all four corners. Like most things , there's more opinions than people.
 Some people have said that the torsion bar will make for a harsher ride. How?? It is ,for the sake of argument, purely linear in rate. How can that be harsher than a dual rate coilover spring.For that matter,with bypasses ,why are dual rate springs even needed or desired in the first place when using bypasses???  Habit???   With standard coil over shocks I see the benefit of dual rate but with bypasses? Someone explain this to me.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline BDKW1

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 896
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 07:17:56 PM »

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »
I'll check it out now. Thanks.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 08:39:58 PM »
Mose's car! That guy doesn't even know there's a box to think outside of!   Quite an innovator IMO.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline MC

  • Fabricator
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 09:07:22 PM »
I guess it all depends on what your going to do with the car. The Mose car is a more of a rock car then a real off road car, like something you would take to Mexico.

My personal experience is mid-engine cars are very hard to get a good balance front to rear in any kind of rough terrain and the more one offs you build into it the harder it gets to know where you need to be adjusting to get things right.

An example would be the UMP short course cars.
Mid engine type 4 with a Hewland trans. A-Arm front and rear suspension with torsion bars front and back with rising rate linkage. Absolutely beautiful workmanship thru out. Very much one off cars with all kinds of little tricks, tons of money spent.
On the race track they were a real hand full. I talked to Don after the first race and he thought maybe the raising rate was off and they were going to fix it for the next race. The cars didnt run many races but every time I saw them they had cut them up to try something new to get them to work.
Never did.
The class 10 car I mentioned earlier had A-Arms and 2 stage torsion bars in the rear with a twin I-beam torsion bar and Fox air shocks up front. Very strange handling and very hard to try to tune. Never got close to happy.
What I am trying to say is trying things that sound great on paper dont always work so well in real life and its much better to be able to make adjustments easily then having to make changes to the chassis to try and find a fix.

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »
I guess it all depends on what your going to do with the car. The Mose car is a more of a rock car then a real off road car, like something you would take to Mexico.

My personal experience is mid-engine cars are very hard to get a good balance front to rear in any kind of rough terrain and the more one offs you build into it the harder it gets to know where you need to be adjusting to get things right.

An example would be the UMP short course cars.
Mid engine type 4 with a Hewland trans. A-Arm front and rear suspension with torsion bars front and back with rising rate linkage. Absolutely beautiful workmanship thru out. Very much one off cars with all kinds of little tricks, tons of money spent.
On the race track they were a real hand full. I talked to Don after the first race and he thought maybe the raising rate was off and they were going to fix it for the next race. The cars didnt run many races but every time I saw them they had cut them up to try something new to get them to work.
Never did.
The class 10 car I mentioned earlier had A-Arms and 2 stage torsion bars in the rear with a twin I-beam torsion bar and Fox air shocks up front. Very strange handling and very hard to try to tune. Never got close to happy.
What I am trying to say is trying things that sound great on paper dont always work so well in real life and its much better to be able to make adjustments easily then having to make changes to the chassis to try and find a fix.
I agree that the Mose car is a dual purpose car and has all the compromises needed to be pretty decent at both.  As for 2 stage torsion bars,IMO,that is just BS in the first place. As for a rising rate linkage I'm not ,at this point,even considering it. 4 stage bypasses,yes.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2013, 09:11:48 AM »
This paragraph from an F-1 article give some real insight to why progressive rate springing is needed if you think about it a bit. It has finally sunk in,I think. See what you see in it.

"The springs or torsion bars are the parts of the suspension that actually absorb the bumps. In simple terms, the softer the suspension on the car, the quicker it will travel through a corner. This has the adverse effect of making the car less sensitive to the drivers input, causing sloppy handling. A harder sprung car will have less mechanical grip through the corner, but the handling will be more sensitive and more direct, ideal for circuits such as Monaco where the drivers must be inch perfect between the barriers."

 So ,if I go torsion bar,I need to design a lever/link that would approximate the progressive rate of a coilover. Gotta give this a bit more thought.  eyes ;D ;D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 09:22:52 AM by masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »
OK,tired of thinking about it.  eyes Just want to keep the progress going so 4 shocks and 4 bypasses it is.  ;D ;D If I had more time I still feel that torsions can be made to work. Just too much going on right now to put the extra time into it. Thanks for all the replies ,they really helped me sort out some things. I appreciate it.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Carlriddle

  • Another build? What are you thinking?
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4455
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2013, 12:46:43 PM »
So is this thing gonna make spring trip or not.   rofl rofl
You can keep your CHANGE, I'd like to keep my DOLLAR.

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91319
Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2013, 04:28:19 PM »
Doubtful but it may well be sitting on it's tires waiting for body then. A good friend ,the other day, bought a new 4x4 Torchmate CNC plasma table. About a mile from me.  Next/same day turnaround for me now. A real timesaver for sure when some my parts don't need be laser or waterjet precision.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I so happy!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 04:32:23 PM by masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)