Author Topic: Torsion Bar Front Suspension  (Read 2143 times)

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Offline fabr

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Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« on: March 24, 2013, 06:05:39 PM »
OK,tell me why I should not consider using torsion bar front suspension with bypasses instead of conventional coilover shock and bypasses on a 3000 pound car,45% front weight . I can get bars with enough twist capability. I can think of several positives. Need to know any negatives.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline WelderPat

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 06:12:23 PM »
 I will probably be the only one to say this but a spring is a spring and a tosion bar is a spring.
There is always free cheese in a mouse trap.

Offline Carlriddle

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 06:43:12 PM »
I would think the lower arm, the one bar would attach, would have to be  way over built from typical A-arm.  But yeah, mounted close enough to frame you could get plenty of travel.  Bar could weigh less than coilover shock?  And definitely be lower center of weight. 

But it be different, and cool.  So do it!
You can keep your CHANGE, I'd like to keep my DOLLAR.

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 07:50:29 PM »
I will probably be the only one to say this but a spring is a spring and a tosion bar is a spring.
Yes and no actually. A coil spring can have a progressive rate where a torsion bar is strictly linear.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 07:55:39 PM »
I would think the lower arm, the one bar would attach, would have to be  way over built from typical A-arm.  But yeah, mounted close enough to frame you could get plenty of travel.  Bar could weigh less than coilover shock?  And definitely be lower center of weight. 

But it be different, and cool.  So do it!
The arm would need be no stronger either way. It takes the same force applied to the same point to suspend the car. I would use a lever on the end of torsion bar connected by a link to the same similar lower shock mount location as with a coilover. Maybe I need to try to sketch something up to explain.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 08:13:46 PM by masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline BDKW1

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 10:01:44 PM »
a torsion bar is strictly linear.
Not always. There have been many makers of bars over the years that have made progressive units. They put an extra set of splines somewhere in the bar and you have a arm with an adjustable stop to time when it kicks in. Mickey Thompson was a big fan of these and used them on many of his desert racers.
 

 
Downside is, they are expensive if you don't get the rate right the first time. Also, exploding torsion sockets. Ask any guy that's beat on an older 4X Toyota about that, the adjuster bolt goes through the floor and nails you in the ass. All the old 7S trucks had steel plates weld to the floor to prevent this........
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 10:04:40 PM by BDKW1 »

Offline Hammerworks

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 05:05:21 AM »
Isnt there a guy on RDC building one of these right now?

Dump?

Offline Carlriddle

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2013, 05:33:51 AM »
I see whats in your head.  :o :o 

What are the positive things to using them? 
You can keep your CHANGE, I'd like to keep my DOLLAR.

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2013, 06:02:39 AM »
Not always. There have been many makers of bars over the years that have made progressive units. They put an extra set of splines somewhere in the bar and you have a arm with an adjustable stop to time when it kicks in. Mickey Thompson was a big fan of these and used them on many of his desert racers.
 

 
Downside is, they are expensive if you don't get the rate right the first time. Also, exploding torsion sockets. Ask any guy that's beat on an older 4X Toyota about that, the adjuster bolt goes through the floor and nails you in the ass. All the old 7S trucks had steel plates weld to the floor to prevent this........
I see what you are saying but the bar will still be linear spring rate. The extra stop would be equivalent to the crossover collar on a coilover dual spring setup. Expense wise,so are coils if you miss it . BTDT also.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2013, 06:04:07 AM »
Isnt there a guy on RDC building one of these right now?

Dump?
Many people have done it over the years. Do you have a link to the build you are talking about? I'd like to read it.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2013, 06:08:07 AM »
I see whats in your head. :o :o 

What are the positive things to using them?
Glad you do,the shrinks are still looking and scratching theirs.......... Positives like a lowered center of gravity. Less unsprung weight. Lowered center of gravity. Ease of changing out spring(bar) rates. Ease of changing ride height without changing spring rates. Just a few.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Hammerworks

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2013, 10:16:29 AM »
I'll see if I can find it.

I think its bars front and back also.

BDKW1 knows the one I'm talking about.

Damn I'm good!

Hold on to your shorts...serious cad porn!

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php/48910-Something-New-2
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 10:37:46 AM by Hammerworks »

LiveWire

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2013, 01:10:08 PM »
While the spring rate of the bar itself is linear, your method of connecting it would make the net result progressive. That is if you watch your lever angles. If at full bump, the lever on the bar is a right angle with the link then greater than 90 as the suspension drops, the effective force the link applies to the arm will be rising rate. This is above an beyond the progressive effect you get from a coil over being leaned over. Make the length of the arm off the torsion bar variable in length.
 

Offline MC

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2013, 01:23:43 PM »
Personally I would not use any of Mickeys cars as an example, they were crude as hell and the only time he won something was in a Raceco VW.
The Chenowth Magnum Short Course Cars had torsion bars going down either side of the transmission and along side the seat that provided the spring rate to their 5 link suspension. In the day they were far and away the best cars running.
I drove a class 10 desert car a couple of races that had a two stage torsion bar setup with an A-ARM rear setup. Very so so. The big problem that car had was alot of odd ball ideas thrown into one car, something you should be very wary of.

Offline fabr

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Re: Torsion Bar Front Suspension
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2013, 01:44:53 PM »
Good read,brought up a lot of good points. Thanks for finding the link.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)