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Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2012, 09:05:09 AM »
sorry guys I am not much of an updater so this has not been much of a build log but here's a pic
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Offline Yummi

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2012, 09:56:14 AM »
Congrats!  Hope the shake down goes well.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2012, 08:04:09 AM »
thanks yummi and it went better than expected!  I need to re-valve the front shocks and I went with 2.5 fox air's all 4 corners this time. I need to replace the 8 inboard radius rods with 1" longer ones to minimize axle plunge. I also need to do a tune up on the motor a little and new clutch.  the heat on the f150 cv was higher than I would like to see but the non plunge 930 was moderate. at full droop I am at 36 degrees so higher heat i guess would be expected but the f150 cv was to hot to hold your hand on. now I ran stock grease out of the box in that one so I will try some better grease in those to see if it reduces. i think I might go ahead and buy stubs and 4 more non plung 930s to replace the f150 cv if they fail.  I was getting a banging from the axle plunge like a 3 lb hammer hitting the chassis. i adjusted out my rods to reduce available plunge from 3/4" to 3/8" and it stopped.   other than that just a few little tweaks and she'll be good. of course I will build the rest of the body this winter as well.   I did take the temp gun to the cv's and the f150 cv runs 45 to 50 degrees hotter than the 930 and on carls rail with dual a-arm it was opposite at roughly the same angle so i don't know what to make of that at this point.  I do know I am tired of dipping my hands in cv grease though, that is one pro for uj's!!   still thinking of switching back to uj's just want to give the cv's a fair shake first.
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Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »
eff uj's.  ;) ;D ;D  If you guys would not run the cars set so high  thumb down  the cv/uj angles would not be so radical. IMO, cars do not need to sit so high at ride height. A more moderate setting will cure a lot of issues and ,again only my opinion, handle better. If you're running at nearly full droop at ride height there is little droop left to follow the ground contours that keeps the tires in contact with the terrain longer. Even if jumps are your only passion I see no need to run the cars set so high at ride height.   But ,to each his own,and to each it is the best way. :)
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
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Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2012, 08:34:52 AM »
My cv's run at a max of 29* approx ,at full droop. The non plunging cv's WILL go more (approx 40*) ,BUT, the design of a midboard naturally limits angle to approx 28*'s.  So far as I'm concerned ,design your suspension around  that limiting parameter and most ,if not all, issues disappear. Carl,Brian, I don't think you will ever find a cv boot that will give good service or be reliable running at 30 degrees plus for long periods of time as is seen with a car sitting near full droop at ride height. They work on the steering axles as designed to do at 40 degrees or so but only at slow ,full lock, steering conditions for just a turn. IMO,won't work well in the long run. Just another reason to lower the car and lessen cv/uj angles.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2012, 02:11:55 PM »
I know what your saying and that is not entirely the case here. at full droop my axles are at 36 degrees now at ride height 26 degrees and just went and checked with it sitting in the garage w/o pass.

I gave up 6" of gc ( which is 18" of gc with the wife and I sitting in the rail) to smooth up the ride and with the 2.5 airs It works well and really like the ride. they soak it up good but do need prob 20 cc's of oil to complete it and since i forgot my shock oil I didn't get to tune them. my fronts need re-valved, faster compression and slower on rebound.

the little pressure needed to tq lock those splines is concerning and the axle pop once they slip under load is far more than concerning but it seems that 3/8" available plunge is the magic # or less to stop the axle pop noise which sounds like a hammer btw.  I had no issues with boots just used he wrong clamps on the boots and those two boots slung grease, easy fix and actually one did right off the bat then I got it stopped 3 days later the other started. carl is right move it 1" and they slip easily!

 my intention was to keep the travel and still get it in the trailer with paddles on and I did just that with room to spare. now if I continue with cv's I will change axle length from 28" to probably 32" and relieve a little more angle w/o giving up gc at full droop. probably re-vamp my carriers to utilize all of my 4.5" back space. they both have pro's and cons but I still pre-fer uj's after experiencing cv's again after soo many years.  only had issues with uj's once out of all my rails and that was because they were the lowest quality from drive shaft super store and couldn't handle my 3.8 v-6 . none of the rockford's ever had issues!! they don't have the play or the mess but limited to 30* or atleast I would never go beyond that and i believe equal in weight to these cv's I have + less mess!!  just my opinion after 10 years of uj's.

 just letting others know what I have experienced first hand now but still in the experimental stage.  you are correct there isn't a boot that will handle over 40* nor have a long life over at a constant over 30* and neither of us need such a thing. my high angle boots are just fine, I used a retaining flange that cover the edge of the bolts and carl didn't so you can clearly see where the boot made contact with the bolt heads and wore through till it ripped. it was surprising that no one down there sold high angle boots for 930's!! simple and easy fix for carl as well. 

I know the higher the angle the higher the heat produced and that kills cv's as well and with uj's the higher the angle you don't get that heat but the weaker the uj's were the cv maintains strength. both have pro's and con's so it come down to the user. i do now remember why I went uj's!!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 02:17:54 PM by Dsrace »
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Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2012, 05:35:22 PM »
I'm at 21* at ride height.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2012, 06:02:30 PM »
I know what your saying and that is not entirely the case here. at full droop my axles are at 36 degrees now at ride height 26 degrees and just went and checked with it sitting in the garage w/o pass.

I gave up 6" of gc ( which is 18" of gc with the wife and I sitting in the rail) to smooth up the ride and with the 2.5 airs It works well and really like the ride. they soak it up good but do need prob 20 cc's of oil to complete it and since i forgot my shock oil I didn't get to tune them. my fronts need re-valved, faster compression and slower on rebound.

the little pressure needed to tq lock those splines is concerning and the axle pop once they slip under load is far more than concerning but it seems that 3/8" available plunge is the magic # or less to stop the axle pop noise which sounds like a hammer btw.  I had no issues with boots just used he wrong clamps on the boots and those two boots slung grease, easy fix and actually one did right off the bat then I got it stopped 3 days later the other started. carl is right move it 1" and they slip easily!

 my intention was to keep the travel and still get it in the trailer with paddles on and I did just that with room to spare. now if I continue with cv's I will change axle length from 28" to probably 32" and relieve a little more angle w/o giving up gc at full droop. probably re-vamp my carriers to utilize all of my 4.5" back space. they both have pro's and cons but I still pre-fer uj's after experiencing cv's again after soo many years.  only had issues with uj's once out of all my rails and that was because they were the lowest quality from drive shaft super store and couldn't handle my 3.8 v-6 . none of the rockford's ever had issues!! they don't have the play or the mess but limited to 30* or atleast I would never go beyond that and i believe equal in weight to these cv's I have + less mess!!  just my opinion after 10 years of uj's.

 just letting others know what I have experienced first hand now but still in the experimental stage.  you are correct there isn't a boot that will handle over 40* nor have a long life over at a constant over 30* and neither of us need such a thing. my high angle boots are just fine, I used a retaining flange that cover the edge of the bolts and carl didn't so you can clearly see where the boot made contact with the bolt heads and wore through till it ripped. it was surprising that no one down there sold high angle boots for 930's!! simple and easy fix for carl as well. 

I know the higher the angle the higher the heat produced and that kills cv's as well and with uj's the higher the angle you don't get that heat but the weaker the uj's were the cv maintains strength. both have pro's and con's so it come down to the user. i do now remember why I went uj's!!
WHat carl  experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior   ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2012, 06:58:07 PM »
WHat carl  experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior   ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to. 

ok so are you saying the splines aren't matched end for end or that the cv's aren't clocked properly?  what carl experianced and what I checked on his rail is the same as mine other than the fact that his non plunge ran as hot as my outers and my outers were hitting the same temps his inner were so that was 180 * off but the tq lock was the same he just had less plunge than I but once I adjusted my rods out to 3/8" plunge the pop stopped but the ease of tq lock is still present just like carls so the only thing diff is the heat from end of the axle to the other. my np 930's are warm to the touch and the f150's are hot. I could take them apart and make sure I got them clocked properly but on the np 930's how should they be clocked? the plunging 930's make sense but these aren't the same.
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Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2012, 06:59:08 PM »
the other diff fabbr is your open diff and plunging axles!

ok since you don't have clips on both sides of the cv's , with plunging axles and open diff, w/o tq lock on the splines what keeps them from sliding down into the cups?   

not trying to promote one or the other just trying to wrap my head around this. i can say with all the slop in the cv balls and splines they help a live rear end turn sharper on dirt or sand but not pavement yet. 

although the axle pop is gone I can still feel a bind when on pavement and I am surprised with all that slop in them they don't break easier. I will have to play around with clocking them and I wonder if they need to be aligned like a uj side to side as well as end for end?   don't know anyone with experience with this app, live rear with np 930's.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:26:10 PM by Dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2012, 07:10:43 PM »
WHat carl  experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior   ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to. 


lol we will see
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Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2012, 08:52:42 PM »
the other diff fabbr is your open diff and plunging axles!

ok since you don't have clips on both sides of the cv's , with plunging axles and open diff, w/o tq lock on the splines what keeps them from sliding down into the cups?   


not trying to promote one or the other just trying to wrap my head around this. i can say with all the slop in the cv balls and splines they help a live rear end turn sharper on dirt or sand but not pavement yet. 

although the axle pop is gone I can still feel a bind when on pavement and I am surprised with all that slop in them they don't break easier. I will have to play around with clocking them and I wonder if they need to be aligned like a uj side to side as well as end for end?   don't know anyone with experience with this app, live rear with np 930's.
My axles still lock a bit if just sitting still and trans is in gear-just normal and has no effect when rolling just as yours . the axle can't slide into the cup.It hangs from the top/inner clip and since the star doesn't plunge that's all that's needed. The bottom/outer clip is actually unnecessary but I put it in anyway.

No need for clocking a cv.
  Of course you feel them bind with a locked rear drive just as you do with a UJ. A cv does not/cannot overcome that- sloppy or not.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2012, 08:55:19 PM »

lol we will see
;D ;D ;D ;D At the end of the day,both work. ;) I prefer cv's mainly because midboards demand their use.  rofl
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Carlriddle

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2012, 06:23:10 AM »
So Fabr, what keeps the slip axles from seperating enough for the axle to bump the outter cup.  I was thinking you must have clipped both sides of cv?  But guess not.

I only ran clips on inside RCV 930 mainly because I didn't want to have to try pull the clip thru f150 cv's.  I believe the f150 boot will have no problem running at the angles DS and I are asking.  I ran a over cv boot on inner without the little boot flanges and that was my fault.  Boot flange with f150 boot, which has a nice lip that snaps into groove, and a proper boot tie all should be good. 
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Offline dsrace

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Re: first step of new build
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2012, 07:22:34 PM »
My axles still lock a bit if just sitting still and trans is in gear-just normal and has no effect when rolling just as yours . the axle can't slide into the cup.It hangs from the top/inner clip and since the star doesn't plunge that's all that's needed. The bottom/outer clip is actually unnecessary but I put it in anyway.

No need for clocking a cv.
  Of course you feel them bind with a locked rear drive just as you do with a UJ. A cv does not/cannot overcome that- sloppy or not.



this is part of what I was asking, with your slip shaft axles what keeps the slider from opening and sending you axle into the cup?   I know plunging cv's produce some plunge and is what is referred to as axle pop but to much and you hit the cups. if the plungers need to be clocked then I would guess the np's do to.  I know I notice and hear some off the wall things but getting them right makes them work a whole lot better!
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