Author Topic: Slow Build by Engineer  (Read 46750 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Engineer

  • Inquisitor
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2657
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 11:30:48 AM »
Seriously the mount is my concern. I know for sure that bugpac had total failure of a similar narrow bearing mount with much less HP and had to redesign. His also looked to be bulletproof but IMO only, there has to be serious consideration of the mount rigidity.. It will take mounting the engine and mount into one very stiff,rigid structure that will not allow any flex not only at the mount but also no flex of the motor mounts and frame between the engine and drive. I know I argued high and low about my not having any flex issues with my first drive  on the BBQ buggy but after much thought and rethinking I am certain frame flex was the culprit. The chain will exert,as I'm sure you realize, a large amount of twist into that mount. I'm sure that you'll be able to figure out how much steel to throw at it but ,again, be mindful of the entire cradle package for the engine and drive to ensure chain alignment under WOT power. Remember what we get away with on smaller buggies will bite you in the ass  when busas or Kawi1400 or any other really high output MC engine is used. They will twist stuff every way but loose. LOL!!! I'm liking your work.


Are you suggesting I should cancel the Turbo Order?   rofl

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91571
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 12:42:46 PM »
 nono Perhaps the twin turbo setup is a bit much though. ;D ;D
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91571
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 03:26:38 PM »
I admit I'm concerned with the leverage the overhang of the sprocket  will have on the chain. The mount with only a single bearing concerns me only from the standpoint of rigidity and possible chain alignment issues  the single mount might have due to any possible deflection that will occur under power. The mount will need to be super rigid.Engineer is plenty educated enough to be able to calculate the deflection loads to see what the deflection will be and how much chain alignment will be affected sooooo,engineer,how ya gonna keep it mounted rigidly enough to prevent any deflection ?
I just noticed I said with the single bearing. I meant to say with the closely spaced bearings.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Nutz4sand

  • VIP
  • *
  • Posts: 1904
  • Wishin I was there. "Glamis"
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 04:44:13 PM »
Thats kinda what I wanna see if the offset gives it any trouble.

I know that bearing holds a roughly 3 ton truck up on one side through some pretty brutal beatings when you got a loose nut behind the wheel.

But the tires offset goes back in around the bearing. Kinda centers the load on the bearing carrier.

BUT the bearing STILL has to deal with the entire truck bouncing on it at every goofy angle imaginable while rough off roading is taking place so hopefulley it will be fine.

Heck I see guys with offset rims on the IRS fords and they seen to take it OK so maybe its not so big a deal?

Interesting to see how it fares. Hopefulley very well! 
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Offline Engineer

  • Inquisitor
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2657
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 06:42:50 PM »
That's why I am really anxious to get it going.  My gut tells me no problem but you never know until you try.

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91571
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2010, 07:01:11 PM »
I don't think the bearing will be an issue at all BUT,i was talking to another member today and he was needing to use anspacer of approx 1.5 " on each side of his vw transaxle to change back to cv's(don't ask why please-irrelevant to this). It seems that ,I believe it was Weddle he said ,says the differential bearings will fail thay way due to the offset but the UJ's spaced out there haven't caused any failures yet. SOooooooo,I'm wondering IF there is a possible issue to be concerned with or if the failures he says will occur in 2 trips out or not for 10 years has more to do with the angle of the axles and the loads the bearings see when axles at steep angles are cycling up under long travel constantly more so  than any additional loading the overhang has added.That probably came out gibberish but.....best I could do.LOL!!!! I still can't see any bearing issue- still think mount  rigidity is the key to the narrow spacing success.  eason I mention the steep angles are due to engineer will be running steep angles if keeping that huge 80 tooth sprocket above frame rails. Just a thought. Better to discuss things like this now than later. If any wants to discusss it that is! LOL!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 07:03:49 PM by masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline dsrace

  • VIP
  • *
  • Posts: 6423
  • my one true weakness
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 02:49:11 PM »
fabber I talked to that same member and it was an interesting conversation but alot like talking to a wall!  rofl  as far as the bearings go  engineer have you actually cut one aparts to verify it's a double tappered instead of the more common double ball bearing? I run wheel bearing hub combo's on my v-6 rail which is 1600 lbs to 1800 lbs wet. the bearings came off the front end of a 97 cherokee 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern thru what ever other years and I also believe they fit the v8 grand cherokee models but doesn't matter I can say this they are not 2 tappered timken even though the box said timken on it they are 2 roller bearings as far as i could tell from a website i finally found with some info on them. no I have not taken one apart but will soon. ok the reason I even ask is because when i jump my rail upon landing there is enough flex in my wheel bearing the my rotors lean over just enough that my brake pedal gets just a touch soft on the first push. but only when a hard load is put to them like jumping!  fast corvairs is running the same bearings I believe I wonder if he has noticed this as well? you should hollar at him and ask!  I'm just saying there is a reason factory brakes are on a slide so they can move with the rotor!  just something to think about.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 02:59:02 PM by Dsrace »
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

  • VIP
  • *
  • Posts: 6423
  • my one true weakness
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2010, 05:32:11 PM »
ok I took a few pics to show you guys what I am talking about. engineer I am not trying to pick apart your idea just giving you some info to try and avoid headaches down the road.  now given that when mckenzies screwed up my order at the last minute and sent me 2 piece rims that were bolted instead of welded I wasn't happy but didn't have the time to ship back and wait the supposed 4 weeks to get new ones. I then later learned that the I think cws rims were actually formerly michelle rims so that didn't make me happy and I do believe there is some actual flex in the rim itself as well. I do know that there isn't that much clearance between the nuts and my caliper with the wheel spacer on, about 1/16" and as you can see from the pic those nuts have rub my calipers at times through out a year. now when I installed these wheel bearings the book I had said 80-100ft lbs tq so that is what I did and my brakes were horrible so I switched to a 7/8" bore master cylinder and re tq'd the axle nut to 250ft lb tq with a tq wrench. that took 95-98% of the problem out but I still think there is a little flex in the wheel bearing on my heavy v6 rail. the rotor in the pic is 12.19" od and the caliper is 4 piston 1.75 pistons. now enemy is running the same wheel bearing and a 3/4" master cylinder with the same rotor but 1.38" pistons and he felt the same problems at first and started tq ing down more and got rid of most but not all I think. fast is running front brakes and imo only! I believe this may help mask this if this is what is really going on! he said his cutting brakes act alot like mine after a hard run through rough or low alt jump so to speak. also my rear susp design does not have a camber curve so I wouldn't be adding load from that. I have a used bearing I picked up for mock up, I will have to cut it up later tonight and see what is really inside and post some pics.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 05:34:37 PM by Dsrace »
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91571
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2010, 05:33:50 PM »
fabber I talked to that same member and it was an interesting conversation but alot like talking to a wall!  rofl  as far as the bearings go  engineer have you actually cut one aparts to verify it's a double tappered instead of the more common double ball bearing? I run wheel bearing hub combo's on my v-6 rail which is 1600 lbs to 1800 lbs wet. the bearings came off the front end of a 97 cherokee 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern thru what ever other years and I also believe they fit the v8 grand cherokee models but doesn't matter I can say this they are not 2 tappered timken even though the box said timken on it they are 2 roller bearings as far as i could tell from a website i finally found with some info on them. no I have not taken one apart but will soon. ok the reason I even ask is because when i jump my rail upon landing there is enough flex in my wheel bearing the my rotors lean over just enough that my brake pedal gets just a touch soft on the first push. but only when a hard load is put to them like jumping!  fast corvairs is running the same bearings I believe I wonder if he has noticed this as well? you should hollar at him and ask!  I'm just saying there is a reason factory brakes are on a slide so they can move with the rotor!  just something to think about.
I never would have dreamed they might be roller bearings.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Boostinjdm

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2010, 06:01:45 PM »
yes, a lot of them are roller bearings.  Just a reminder, Timken is a brand, not a type of bearing.... ;D
This post has been edited due to content.

Offline Engineer

  • Inquisitor
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 2657
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2010, 06:56:54 PM »
Good insight!  They might not be taper bearings.  I will look up some info on them.  Let me know what you find when you cut it apart DS.  You can get the same bearing from multiple suppliers besides Timken, but I believe they will all be of the same design regardless of manufacturer.

Which bolt are you talking about torqueing down more DS?  The center bolt that holds the splined stub in?

Offline dsrace

  • VIP
  • *
  • Posts: 6423
  • my one true weakness
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2010, 08:58:07 PM »
yes the axle nut.  I did cut one up and this one came right off a stock axle off of a cherokee I bought from the junk yard before deciding what way to go along time ago. the housing and bearings say timken on them and there are bearing #'s too. now the jeep is a double tapered bearing so that sight I was on that sold tools to rebuild them was showing the wrong image for this wheel bearing but apperantly some of the others are rollers!
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Bennyhanna

  • Guest
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 07:12:22 AM »
I have a 92 cherokee that i offroad and i have blown one apart and it was regular ball bearings, so maybe they come in both versions?

Offline fabr

  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 91571
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 09:18:57 AM »
Hmmmm,that throws an unknown, for sure ,into the mix.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

LiveWire

  • Guest
Re: Slow Build by Engineer
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2010, 09:28:29 AM »
The Set 35 bearing many use and are in the Formula Cross are tapered rollers if a Timken bearing. The other brands are ball bearings. I have never had a Timken fail, but the one time I used one of the others because it was available quick, it failed the first time out. The only reason I had to use the other one was The Timken's inner race stayed on the hub when I removed to replace with different hubs. I did not have the tool I have available now to have removed it. I put the inner race from one side into the outer on the other side then replaced one bearing. Even though mixing parts from 2 used bearings could have resulted in problems, that bearing is still alive and well years later.

I don't think Engineer's bearing will have problems. I bet the only difference between that bearing and the one in my 8500lb GVR truck's is it has 5 lugs instead of 7. The distance from the left CV to the bearing is really close in that setup. I would be more concerned about the mount, but I am sure he'll make sure it is not an issue. While I have a small amount of doubt, I have a lot of curiosity as to if it works ;)

I have some wheels that I made and ran on the front of a 650 lb machine. The center of the wheel is 3/8" thick 7075 T651. I doubt that is flexing. The inner half bolts to the center is Douglas .190 6061 T6. The wheel will flex an 1/8" to rub my ball joints. Actually, they flexed more than 1/8" because it wore through the rim and the tire went flat. So DSRace, I think it is mostly in your wheels.