Author Topic: Fabr's Car-VW/busa crossbreed  (Read 157475 times)

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artie on edge

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2008, 12:16:27 AM »
Actually 455, the cv mounts are in the centre of the trans (or close to it), it looks like they are low because the bell housing sits up so hi



Machine off the bellhousing and flip her over...

Offline fabr

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2008, 06:00:26 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the bellhousing casting just bolt on the front of the case on an 091?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

borris

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 06:40:22 AM »
yes?

artie on edge

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2008, 02:10:20 PM »
Yes but you need the end of it to seal the trans and support the casing as the crown wheel and pinion try and "spread" under load.

The front cover (bell housing) does not support the input shaft though. It does house the seal and its a flexiseal (allows quite a lot of sideways movement).

the input shaft is a two piece unit (screws together) which comes apart to allow service of the crown wheel and pinion). Interesting design.

Still think its all too heavy though...been a fun exercise though..

borris

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 02:58:52 PM »
Replace the removable bellhousing with an adapter to direct couple the busa to the 091. Input shaft pilots in an adapter on the busa output shaft. Heavier than would be desirable for a small buggy but for a mid size...........

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 03:04:56 AM »
I would guess that the Bellhousing is literally the perfect mount for the bearings needed to hold it straight. Its not that far off the front of the tranny. Bolt a flat plate to it and bore a hold dead on the shaft for the bearing housing and then add stabilization fins. But thats me.

VW trannies to hook up well built VW's (and last) are usually a good few bucks. Audi transmissions are far stronger but heavy. I am wanting to go find and Audi and measure it for length. I do not doubt an Audi tranny would hold up well to the power of a Hayabusa though. Especially if the car was light.

Not to mention that ANY 90 degree power transfer (like a ring and pinion) is MUCH more parasitic drag than gears running in parellel. This drag gets worse as speed and power climb.

Makes one wonder if a simple square aluminum box (budget) or a fancey case (high end) three gear box could not be made to couple directly to a bike motors output shaft then send power back to where it feeds out to the car tranny. Instead of fancy gears take VW gears right from VW as they are already made and cheap (compared to making) It sounds sooooo easy!

I have heard that the street bike Vmax is a shaft drive. But the little part that converts the power from the motr to the driveshaft can be removed and it can be made into a chain drive. IF this is true you may be able to use TWO of those to get the power to the tranny but you get a lot of drag compared to a chain. They are tough as Vmax street bikes are brutally fast. But stock Hayabusa being newer and faster may still be able to put the hurt to them.

Just toss all the chains and gears in the dumpster and put a hydraulic pump on the motor and feed it to Hyd motors at the wheels. I always wondered about this watching HUGE bushhogs with hydraulic spun blades. They spin those massive steel discs of knives up to speed brutally quick. And they hit some dang good RPMS. Just need a big oil radiator.   

Then I think back to a Vmax street bike or a Honda gold wing. They have a small and lightweight 90 degree drive at the rear tire. These are VERY strong as most of you know. Set the Hayabusa sideways in the chassis and feed it into one of these then into a Hondas car tranny. You would have to fab the adaptors but NO CHAINS.   
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

borris

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 06:53:52 AM »
I would guess that the Bellhousing is literally the perfect mount for the bearings needed to hold it straight. Its not that far off the front of the tranny. Bolt a flat plate to it and bore a hold dead on the shaft for the bearing housing and then add stabilization fins. But thats me.

VW trannies to hook up well built VW's (and last) are usually a good few bucks. Audi transmissions are far stronger but heavy. I am wanting to go find and Audi and measure it for length. I do not doubt an Audi tranny would hold up well to the power of a Hayabusa though. Especially if the car was light.
Built VW 091 with Weddle parts are capable of 300ft.lbs. torque input.
Not to mention that ANY 90 degree power transfer (like a ring and pinion) is MUCH more parasitic drag than gears running in parellel. This drag gets worse as speed and power climb.
I agree completely but are stronger by far.

Makes one wonder if a simple square aluminum box (budget) or a fancey case (high end) three gear box could not be made to couple directly to a bike motors output shaft then send power back to where it feeds out to the car tranny. Instead of fancy gears take VW gears right from VW as they are already made and cheap (compared to making) It sounds sooooo easy!
Others have done that with varying success. Yep,it SOUNDS easy. :)

I have heard that the street bike Vmax is a shaft drive. But the little part that converts the power from the motr to the driveshaft can be removed and it can be made into a chain drive. IF this is true you may be able to use TWO of those to get the power to the tranny but you get a lot of drag compared to a chain. They are tough as Vmax street bikes are brutally fast. But stock Hayabusa being newer and faster may still be able to put the hurt to them.
Open chains SUCK. The quest is to avoid them if at all possible. IMO a built or t'boed busa with the added weight and drag of a mid size buggy would kill them.

Just toss all the chains and gears in the dumpster and put a hydraulic pump on the motor and feed it to Hyd motors at the wheels. I always wondered about this watching HUGE bushhogs with hydraulic spun blades. They spin those massive steel discs of knives up to speed brutally quick. And they hit some dang good RPMS. Just need a big oil radiator. 
And talk about parasitic losses!!!

Then I think back to a Vmax street bike or a Honda gold wing. They have a small and lightweight 90 degree drive at the rear tire. These are VERY strong as most of you know. Set the Hayabusa sideways in the chassis and feed it into one of these then into a Hondas car tranny. You would have to fab the adaptors but NO CHAINS.   
Just my gut feeling but I doubt the90* drive would  take the abuse

Offline Engineer

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2008, 10:18:06 AM »
The first MC powered car I ever saw was 15 years ago at LS.  He had taken a mid engine VW buggy and dropped a 1000CC MC engine in in place of the VW.  I was to young and dumb to pay attention to how it was coupled, or exactly which VW trans it was.  He was eating up the VW's at the dragstrip.  It seems like a good Idea, here are my thoughts.

Coupler:  Everyone dealing with the Transworks seemed to have trouble because of the coupler. (among other things) I would suggest DO NOT try to support the front end of the input shaft.  Instead use Arrowheads method and strongly bearing support your coupler, and use the middle of a clutch disk, engaged on the VW input splines to drive the tranny.  This will keep the input out of a bind.  As will the CV, and other coupler solutions people have been finding.

Horsepower:  I am waiting to see about the endurance of the honda tranny behind a busa that someone is driving like a rented mule.....  Here is what scares me with both the honda and VW tranny.  You are connecting to the tranny where the engine originally set, and running the tranny in 3rd or 4th gear.  Lets just say the tranny will stand up to 300HP/200 Ft-Lbs of Honda or Turbo VW power.  You slide your 300HP/175 Ft-lbs turbo busa in and put it in 1st gear......  What is the Torque at the input shaft of the tranny???  (Busa Secondary reduction is 2.352 and first gear is 2.615 so (2.352 X 2.615 = 6.150)  You pop the clutch and the input shaft sees 1076 Ft-Lbs of torque......  Pucker time.....  You better hope you built that buggy really light, and that the tires blow off....  Or all you will hear is POP!

Even in High gear a Busa is (2.352 x 1.043 = 2.453) so 175 Ft-lbs = 429 Ft-lbs at the output shaft.  This is why the tranny will hold up to a VW becase the VW never has any leverage on it.  Just my $.02.

Please hurry up and finish some Honda and VW tranny cars, so I can see if they hold up.  8)

Offline fabr

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2008, 11:02:56 AM »
Engineer your figures are what scares me also. I've done the math also. I've got to get on the road to the dunes in a few minutes but I'd like to continue this when I get back.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2008, 06:27:01 PM »
http://www.europeancarweb.com/projectcars/0310ec_1986_porsche_944_turbo_specifcations/index.html

These trannys already have the nosecone built for you. Just flip the Hayabusa sideways and get a driveshaft adaptor. Get a lil driveshaft made up. It would be a tad longer though.   

You can see all the specs above at the link but the car weighs 3040 pounds and the motor stock makes:
 Power (SAE net): 217 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 244 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm

Plus HUGE tires on pavement.

Just some food for thought. You be your own judge on it but share opinions with us!
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Offline Punkur67

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2008, 06:32:09 PM »
Its better to be a smartass than a dumbass!

Admin

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2008, 06:39:10 PM »
I think they used a type 1 so the could flip the ring a pinion for a mid engine application

Im 99% confident he copied the type 1...It is not a type one case tho, he has them cast in china or some shit...

Offline Punkur67

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2008, 06:58:05 PM »
I think its a great idea. A built bus box should be able to handle 300hp and the lower torque #s from a bike motor will help not killing the trans. If I did this I would make it a rear hanger and not flip the box. I wanted to do this and was talked out of it by a couple of trans shops and a couple of forums. A bus box in standard configuration is a well proven setup. I woud love to see one of these setups.
Its better to be a smartass than a dumbass!

Offline fabr

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2008, 08:43:22 PM »
I think its a great idea. A built bus box should be able to handle 300hp and the lower torque #s from a bike motor will help not killing the trans. If I did this I would make it a rear hanger and not flip the box. I wanted to do this and was talked out of it by a couple of trans shops and a couple of forums. A bus box in standard configuration is a well proven setup. I woud love to see one of these setups.

But as engineer points out the busa torque will be multiplied but the busa tranny before the 091 box
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)

Offline fabr

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Re: busa/VW crossbreed?
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2008, 08:48:33 PM »
My math ,if I recall right , came up a little different tho. I've got to check what I came up with.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots" Albert Einstein  (IT'S OFFICIAL THAT DAY IS HERE NOW!)