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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on May 07, 2019, 08:55:19 PM

Title: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2019, 08:55:19 PM
I have such a large investment in Gen1 small block Chevys. Lots of shit actually. Waaaayyyy too much to just dump for nothing on ebay or whatever.Soooo I've really hesitated to make a change from the Brodix heads that have given me such grief. Anyway,I've been mulling over my options. I think I have the solution. I have one fresh pair of the brodix heads,and another set that will be fresh after repairs. Both sets are worth at least $5K per pair with rockers setups and pushrods.Sell them both,keep the high $$$$ rotating assemblies and change to the Chevy SB2.2 upper end platform that will allow me to continue running my bullet proof assemblies and bolt on the SB2.2 stuff. All I will have to rework will be headers and a few coolant lines. SWEET!!!!  BTW,the SB2.2 stuff is what nascar ran for a long time in a 360 max CID. I will be running my 427 rotating assemblies. Won't be dougy power but 800+ should be sweet enough and won't cost hardly anything(relatively speaking) to make the conversion to reliability.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2019, 08:59:03 PM
All I have to do now is decide if I want a complete engine with fewer than 600 laps on it or a fresh engine fresh off the dyno. Approx $8K difference,engines come complete ,ready to run.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fastcorvairs on May 08, 2019, 05:13:19 AM
I have such a large investment in Gen1 small block Chevys. Lots of shit actually. Waaaayyyy too much to just dump for nothing on ebay or whatever.Soooo I've really hesitated to make a change from the Brodix heads that have given me such grief. Anyway,I've been mulling over my options. I think I have the solution. I have one fresh pair of the brodix heads,and another set that will be fresh after repairs. Both sets are worth at least $5K per pair with rockers setups and pushrods.Sell them both,keep the high $$$$ rotating assemblies and change to the Chevy SB2.2 upper end platform that will allow me to continue running my bullet proof assemblies and bolt on the SB2.2 stuff. All I will have to rework will be headers and a few coolant lines. SWEET!!!!  BTW,the SB2.2 stuff is what nascar ran for a long time in a 360 max CID. I will be running my 427 rotating assemblies. Won't be dougy power but 800+ should be sweet enough and won't cost hardly anything(relatively speaking) to make the conversion to reliability.

Dump them.  Done gave you to much grief.  Go with the newer stuff. 
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on May 08, 2019, 08:23:16 AM
did you get your heads off? it was another cooling port? i just find it amazing that there that weak! i know there not virgin and prob been buffed to thin but still , damn the headaces you've had and loss of run time!   i would tend to agree with your thought on sb2.2.     so i just have to throw this out there as a thought.  there are many that make an easy 600 to 800 hp with a 6.0 chevy with a bolt on turbo to ported head and better valves with good intake.  i think an easy 600 out of a 5.3 ltre even. just a thought is all.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: lsxsonoma on May 08, 2019, 08:59:22 AM
My personal opinion, as i am fairly well versed in the ls series engines... why not take a 5.3 or 6.0, boost it stock on 8 or so psi like what dsrace said. And if that’s not enough, boostline rods, weisco junkyard dog pistons and a stock crank will reliably make you 800-1000 without sweating (as long as the tune and supporting mods are there) I build turbo ls powered stuff for myself and others and will eventually have a ls powered rail of some sort.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xp66LZDR/F92895-EE-C90-F-435-B-ACA9-C66-E9-AA5-BE96.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Xp66LZDR)

My latest project coming to a close. Aluminum block 5.3, s475 turbo, Ms3pro, 4l80e. All built and tuned by me.

Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: Enemy on May 08, 2019, 09:14:06 AM
I am a boost junkie but love the instant gratification off idle from a high compression NA mill, so understand both perspectives.
But can somebody please school a guy that would have planted a 427sbf in it by now lol?
What is the differences between sbc and the sb2.2 stuff?  Just intake and head design??
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 08, 2019, 02:00:43 PM
I'm staying N/A for several reasons I won't get into. As most here know I am a boost lover though. My reason for not going to an LS based engine is still so I can use up a LOT of high$$$ parts I have now. Rods,cranks,blocks,rods.The SB2.2 allows me to utilize them with a reliable top end that bolts right onto the Gen1 SBC stuff.   YES,there are better engine combos but nothing that will allow me to use up my good stuff for quite a long time into the future. Anything that will make me 700-800HP and a nice flat tq curve covering a 4500 rpm band in the rpm range I want is just fine. The sb2.2 stuff will do that.

Enemy,the head that just cracked was a virgin. As I have said before I never had any issues with the dragster till the very end. I had no idea ,till all this crap,that there was a design issue with the Brodix heads castings with the middle 2 exhaust port water jackets. Brodix did let me in on it last year when the first casting cracked.According to them the 2 I have that have not cracked would likely be good here on but I'm over it and am making the change. 
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 08, 2019, 02:02:10 PM
LSXsonoma,I agree but wish to stay N/A on this car.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 08, 2019, 02:04:02 PM
DS,all good thoughts but you know me,I like to travel a different path .
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on May 08, 2019, 03:41:49 PM
DS,all good thoughts but you know me,I like to travel a different path .

 ;) yes i do

i can understand with a healthy inventory of parts. i was just thinking if your buying a whole new built motor then might consider another path. i hate to say it but the v8's are a lot of fun  ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 08, 2019, 06:20:05 PM
I am a boost junkie but love the instant gratification off idle from a high compression NA mill, so understand both perspectives.
But can somebody please school a guy that would have planted a 427sbf in it by now lol?
What is the differences between sbc and the sb2.2 stuff?  Just intake and head design??
Basically ,yes. The true SB2.2 is a standard layout GM compacted graphite race block . The lifter bores are position altered to better line up pushrods to the rockers. A standard lifter bore arrangement can (is is commonly done) be used with the SB2.2 heads as well. Hence my 427-434" sbc block/rotating assemblies can be used with appropriate pistons being the only thing needing changed. These heads on a 358" engine have a pretty high power band but it is WIDE. On the 427+" motors the rpm range should be lowered approx 1500 rpm and still be wide as the grand canyon.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 08, 2019, 06:26:19 PM
BTW,I just bought a Richard Childress engine. One race on it-supposedly. It still has the nascar seal tag on it anyway.Bought complete engine including 5 stage dry sump for less than just a set of heads would have cost. I'm just going to do a leak down on it and if all is well there I will bolt the thing in and run the piss out of it till winter and convert it to the 427" lower end for next year. If the leak down is disappointing or indicates heads needing freshened I will do the conversion now. I'll know first of week what will happen. Going on a 12 hour one way road trip probably this week end.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on May 11, 2019, 06:49:43 AM
well i REALLY hop this works very well for a long time! want to see you run with us again!
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on May 11, 2019, 10:20:16 PM
Just got back from picking it up.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on July 05, 2019, 08:44:30 PM
Update on the Sb2.2. Had comp grind me a bit more appropriate cam for this 358C.I. motor. The cam that was in it was .880 lift and a shit ton of duration that the heads would love at 9300rpm all day but I felt a smaller cam that would bring the power more into the 3000-8000 range would be a lot better and not hurt the power too much.Comp suggested a grind intended for 24 hour endurance road racing would be a lot easier on the valve train. I agreed with that. Ended up with a .760 lift and about 260* @ .020 lift duration.

I was surprised when I took the valve covers off. The T&D shaft rockers are non adjustable. Yup,solir roller cam with a non adjustable valve train. I had never seen such a thing before sooooooo a quick call to T&D was in order. They told me many nascar teams use non adjustaable valve train . Just 16 more things that can't cause problems and lose a race. OK.........how does a person set lash? Custom length push rods and varying thickness lash caps. That's how.Titanium intake valves are only 6mm stems and exhaust are 7mm. Skinny little things.  :nw  THEN I went to looking for lash caps for those stem sizes. Seems like they are rare little bitches. Rare as in I only found one place to get them.  https://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/cv-racing-products/
Pretty much a hardcore nascar/busch/whatever supplier. Thank heaven there are still lots of guys running these things. 6mm caps are available in a .020 range of thicknesses @.001 increments and 7mm ones are a .040 range. I'll have Trend do the pushrods.

Engine is back together now except for the push rods and lash caps. Waiting on a stand height gauge from T&D so I can bolt the rocker stands on at the right height. The .100 lower lift will require adjusting the height for the stands so the rocker geometry stays spot on and centered on those skinny ass valve stems. Trend makes custom push rods in just a few days. Damn fine company for sure.

Got new headers done tonight. I phucking HATE fitting welding up headers, Seriously,I HATE doing it. Oh well,they're done and are going to OKC ,Ok monday foe Jet-Hot to do the ceramic coating thing. There is just no equal to Jet-Hot other than Swain but Swain only has a 2500* coating . Not only very high temp but high $$$$$$$$$$$ as well. Jet-Hot has an equal but their 1300* coating is amply good for N/A cars. Still about $360 including return freight to have 2 headers coated inside and out.

It has the obligatory belt cam drive and as is normal ,replace any cam belt if you don't know it's history and time of use.No biggie,just call Jesel and get a new one.  LMAO 5: LMAO uh huh.....sure. I tell the guy I need a belt for a SB2.2 he says OK,a 20 or 25mm wide belt. I say I have a 30mm wide belt. He says they never made any 30mm wide cam drives. I tell him it was in a Richard Childress cup motor. He says no it wasn't. It can't be a Jesel cam drive if it uses a 30 mm belt. I say,"well that's funny since everything on this drive says Jesel all over it. Things went downhill fast after that. I didn't get any help on a belt either so I went looking for a belt. Can they be found by the part number on it? OH,HELL NOOOOOOO!  The belt wasn't a Jesel that was on it since I'm sure it wasn't the original Jesel.  It was Goodyear and I thought -name brand ,cool.  I look up Goodyear 300 S8M 576 CSY.  There is absolutely NO mention on the internet about such a belt. 300 refers to 30mm wide. S8M is the pitch and tooth profile. 576 is mm length or 72 tooth. CSY? Who the hell knows. Turns out Goodyear sold their timing belt line to Continental and then to Conti-tech . I got hold of contitech and they say huh,that's off a Cup car. Cool,I found it. Nope,Contitech doesn't stock ANY timing belts and they are all made to order. OK,I want to order one. Nope,they are made on a big mandrell and then cut to width. Something like 20 belts worth. Well,can you tell me what the CSY suffix refers to? It's a highly wear resistant tooth facing that is used on very few belt offerings.  Anyway I got referred to CV products. Yup the lash cap guys. I call them and $109 later it is on it's way. All 25 mm of it. WHAT?????? The damn thing is only 23mm wide. Correct part number,Goodyear and Nascar all over it. I call CV back and tell them of this,mThey say no way,the part number is correct and the belt must be 30mm. They agree to send me another and send a call tag for this one. The second one was 30mm as it should be and know what? It was a Contitech!! :m  It took a few extra says and I'll bet they had a new/correct batch made.

Damn weight conscious Nascar boys mill off every extra ounce they can fron these things and since they use a front motor plate the blocks side motor mount bosses have been milled off. Probably save all of a half pound. That necessitated making a front mpunt but it is actually better now. Opened up some room /incorporated crank trigger pickup into it as well /made routing dry sump hoses easier also.

The radiator setup was fine but I was able to get rid of the coolant return manifold thing the Brodix heads necessitated. That really opened up some room around the distributor. Much nicer now.

Finally , when I drained the engine oil from the dry sump tank,it of course had coolant in it from the water works. What I didn't expect to see was coolant in the torque converter tank. WTF!?!?!?!???? Seems the Moroso dual pressure section pump lost the seal between sections and was mixing tranny fluid and engine oil. DAMMIT!!!! I called the converter builder  https://www.tcsperformance.com/  and asked if it is OK to just run engine oil in the converter since it is for the converter driving a manual trans only and not an automatic trans.  They said sure , no problem and several offroad guys do it. Good enough for me. I get to get rid of one oil tank. Weld in an extra pickup and 2 more returns on the dry sump tank and I'm good to go. COOL!

Bottom line,this has been a PITA and a lot of work but less then going a totally different way would have been. I'll get a 427 inch short block ready this winter and break it out next spring.That will really make the heads work well. See you guys in Sept.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on July 06, 2019, 07:17:12 AM
well, holey $hit!  rofl damn that was a lot of work arounds  rofl  glad you got it sorted out ....for now? just kidding i hope this is the last time!!!!! so any thoughts on the head gasket issues? i new good year sold there belt line to cont, i know a guy that still works there as my little brother used to. they have so many lines it would take the right guy at the right moment to ask the right question to as to spark the right memory just for a chance to find something  LMAO
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on July 06, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Talking with Comp has me believing the cam was actually the issue with the Brodix CV heads. The heads flow so much at mid rpm (as do the SB2.2,hence the new cam)that the VE is actually way above 100% and at mid rpms will actually over pressure the cylinder(sort of like too much boost way too early) . Using the E85 prevented any detonation but also allow it to run really well while slowly pushing the gasket. That's why it ran so long before it pushed to water . They suggested O ringing the block or MLS gaskets but I'm done with them at least for now. Honestly,I'm going to hold on to them until I decide if I will give them another chance with a different cam that will still fill the cylinder but also bleed off excess compression at the mid rpm range.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on July 07, 2019, 06:08:41 AM
that actually does make sense.  how much cyl pressure do you have or had on cold crank? if nothing else you def were consistent on life expectancy with your head gaskets which was no coincidence !
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on July 07, 2019, 09:04:20 AM
Can't answer that . I didn't check because Comp said cranking compression wouldn't indicate a problem and neither would compression ratio. I do know I was @ 14:1 and that is lower than  many are running today. Comp said it was a cam issue or rather a poor cam choice issue. They said the one time was likely aggravated by the uneven torquing due to the torque wrenches not being calibrated the same but was not likely the root cause.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2019, 08:04:34 PM
Well,FINALLY,the SB2.2 is going in the car.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 11, 2019, 07:37:04 AM
i REALLY hope this go round it holds as expected! 
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 11, 2019, 09:03:36 AM
You aren't the only one.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 11, 2019, 09:37:54 AM
oh i know that  :m    sounds like this new cam should dial the cyl pressure down a bit in mid range.    besides once you get this one finished the blue " mini   ;D " rail  will be freshened up quickly  :nw  :D
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 11, 2019, 09:39:49 AM
how muc does that blue " mini " busa rail weigh again?? i know its a little heavier than mine.  i bet mine weighed 1650 to 1750 with the turbo busa in it.   
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 11, 2019, 11:51:15 AM
IIRC with dune tires,full tank of gas and no passengers it was 1850ish.Dirt tires added about 150 I think to that.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 11, 2019, 06:35:05 PM
lighter than mine lol
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 12, 2019, 07:32:35 AM
out of curiosity.....did you even data log even a short run on the sand in your v-8 rail?

the reason i ask is ( based on what the cam guy told you) i would think that would be shown on the data log. i do not doubt it at all, i would really like to see it on the data log as imo that would be very impressive!  if that is true ( again i do not doubt it as it makes sense) that would mean you actually built a nascar engine for your rail !!  rofl talk about taking it over the top  :m ;D ;D i don't care who or what anyone thinks, to build that and stuff it in a rail ......i have to tip my hat for that one!  ;D that just makes fast look normal  LMAO LMAO

on the data log i would think that in the midrange at prob 62% and greater tps, one would see something in the range of 95 to 101 kpa?? your ve should be up as well ? if do have the data log save it because i would like to see it just because. i don't know and i bet with the limited run time but say if your inj's were well matched for the build then you were prob say 65% in that mid range? actually interesting to think about when talking about an n/a motor when you think about it!
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 12, 2019, 03:40:02 PM
VE @ 44% TPS was reading 107% with load of 70% IDC was 38% @5000rpm

VE@100% TPS was reading 111%  with load of 95%  IDC was 80ish @7500 rpm

I did not have KPA readings but load and KPA pretty well mirror each other.

IDC was high at 7500 due to dropping fuel pressure. Got to sort that out. I think the engine just gulps fuel faster than the pumps can supply under fast engine acceleration . Base pressure on the gauge is set to 43psi but logs only show around 38. Sensor and gauge are right next to each other. FP drops consistently on any fast acceleration condition.

 The FAST throttle body has 8 injectors that are staged to run at low load on 4 with the secondary 4 kicking in as needed yet is able to maintain AFR's as FP drops from a logged 38ish to 20ish.This is a return system with the sensor and gauge on the return side after the TB.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 12, 2019, 04:19:50 PM
The injectors are all 74 lb /hr.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 13, 2019, 07:24:38 AM
so that it impressive and on fuel pressure do you have a vac line connected to the fuel reg? if so disconnect that, it's only used for forced induction. no matter what dripping down to 20 ish psi is an issue but again that could be vac doing that. just for example....my rising rate fuel reg is rated for up to 100 psi. wasn't easy finding one that actually put a rating on it! mine raises fuel psi 1 lb per 1 psi boost up to 25 psi then it drops to .75 lbs per 1 psi. i run 130 lb inj's also. i tried an actual walbro 450 pump but it began failing quickly or it couldn't move the fuel it was rated for. either way i went to the a1000 which is over kill for myself. the walbro worked correctly for the first several runs but by the 3rd day at st a it started dropping to the point it wasn't supporting 18 psi boost.  i did read a post that load/kpa mirror each other up to 100 at sea level and at altitude that changes but seems to part ways by 80 at altitude. so no matter what your motor moves some air n/a!
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 13, 2019, 07:33:49 AM
based on that info your on the threshold of 0 vac. do you know the fuel pressure sensor reads correctly on your data log? i have one installed but its not stable at idle. i used the same one enemy uses and it is rock solid for him but not for myself. i have mine mounted in the same place he did as well.  also, does your fuel pump see batt voltage? have you ever checked the ecu to verify that it is reading the same voltage as the batt? i had to correct my megasquirt, it red 1.5 volts less that what i saw at the batt. if the ecu thinks you have more or less voltage it changes everything.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 13, 2019, 09:23:29 AM
out of curiosity.....did you even data log even a short run on the sand in your v-8 rail?

the reason i ask is ( based on what the cam guy told you) i would think that would be shown on the data log. i do not doubt it at all, i would really like to see it on the data log as imo that would be very impressive!  if that is true ( again i do not doubt it as it makes sense) that would mean you actually built a nascar engine for your rail !!  rofl talk about taking it over the top  :m ;D ;D i don't care who or what anyone thinks, to build that and stuff it in a rail ......i have to tip my hat for that one!  ;D that just makes fast look normal  LMAO LMAO

on the data log i would think that in the midrange at prob 62% and greater tps, one would see something in the range of 95 to 101 kpa?? your ve should be up as well ? if do have the data log save it because i would like to see it just because. i don't know and i bet with the limited run time but say if your inj's were well matched for the build then you were prob say 65% in that mid range? actually interesting to think about when talking about an n/a motor when you think about it!
I agree with what you said and yes,it was a pretty good air pump.With the cam I had in it ,too good at mid range. This new setup should be at least as efficient at moving air.The Brodix heads and the Sb2.2 heads should be approximately the same air flow capability.Approximately 400 CFM @ 28". I will assume for now the new cam will be a bit more mid range friendly. I'll know before long.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 13, 2019, 09:33:21 AM
based on that info your on the threshold of 0 vac.Yes,a very low restriction intake tract. do you know the fuel pressure sensor reads correctly on your data log?Not at this time but is on list of things to check. i have one installed but its not stable at idle. i used the same one enemy uses and it is rock solid for him but not for myself. i have mine mounted in the same place he did as well.  also, does your fuel pump see batt voltage? Yes,but will of course double check.have you ever checked the ecu to verify that it is reading the same voltage as the batt?At this time all I can say is battery voltage is steadyacross all rpm ranges. 13.6-13.9 i had to correct my megasquirt, it red 1.5 volts less that what i saw at the batt. if the ecu thinks you have more or less voltage it changes everything.SFAIK the FAST ecu doesn't reference battery voltage but the battery and logged voltage are right on .
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 13, 2019, 08:47:15 PM
so that it impressive and on fuel pressure do you have a vac line connected to the fuel reg? if so disconnect that, it's only used for forced induction.Uh,no,that is incorrect.The regulator is for vac and/or boost referencing. It should be used whether N/A or boosted.See link below.  no matter what dripping down to 20 ish psi is an issue This is correct for sure but I don't have enough vac under WOT or mid throttle to pull it anywhere near that low. I believe I need to pull the pumps and do some investigating the supply side.but again that could be vac doing that. just for example....my rising rate fuel reg is rated for up to 100 psi. wasn't easy finding one that actually put a rating on it! mine raises fuel psi 1 lb per 1 psi boost up to 25 psi then it drops to .75 lbs per 1 psi. i run 130 lb inj's also. i tried an actual walbro 450 pump but it began failing quickly or it couldn't move the fuel it was rated for. either way i went to the a1000 which is over kill for myself. the walbro worked correctly for the first several runs but by the 3rd day at st a it started dropping to the point it wasn't supporting 18 psi boost.  i did read a post that load/kpa mirror each other up to 100 at sea level and at altitude that changes but seems to part ways by 80 at altitude. so no matter what your motor moves some air n/a!
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-how-a-fuel-pressure-regulator-works-with-efi-university/
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2019, 07:16:46 AM
you are correct, they are for vac/boost reference.  i know on the passenger vehichles i have worked on the vac reference is usually a 5 psi diff. in my case i set 43.5 psi with vac hose disconnected reconnect and it drops. i have 21" vac at idle. i read that article you posted the link too......very good article! i just would't have thought one would require such a large swing on psi but i can see why now.  your right, it must be your pumps or in the fueling system. 
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2019, 07:39:04 AM
based on that info your on the threshold of 0 vac.Yes,a very low restriction intake tract. do you know the fuel pressure sensor reads correctly on your data log?Not at this time but is on list of things to check. i have one installed but its not stable at idle. i used the same one enemy uses and it is rock solid for him but not for myself. i have mine mounted in the same place he did as well.  also, does your fuel pump see batt voltage? Yes,but will of course double check.have you ever checked the ecu to verify that it is reading the same voltage as the batt?At this time all I can say is battery voltage is steadyacross all rpm ranges. 13.6-13.9 i had to correct my megasquirt, it red 1.5 volts less that what i saw at the batt. if the ecu thinks you have more or less voltage it changes everything.SFAIK the FAST ecu doesn't reference battery voltage but the battery and logged voltage are right on .

what i was getting at on batt volatge it that......inj dead times spec sheets show what they flow at different voltages. the ecu needs that infor or should need that info to calculated required fuel based on available voltage. this will not cause fuel pressure to dip to 20 psi of course but if its off a bit then it could cause the inj's to flow less fuel than the ecu thinks and in turn you turn the pw up to compensate. i would assume you needed or there is a place to add the inj deat time/flow info in the faste ecu?     i was mistaken earlier, my batt v's were only off .5 v from batt to what the ecu read.  my v gauge on my dash was off 1.5 v's.....chickity china gauge that is gone. 

on another note lol i forgot to reconnect my alt wire back to my batt after working on something before the fall dune trip. i turned the engine on and could not figure out why my afr gauge was reading low 15' to low 16's at idle! my alt keeps my v at 14.1 to 14.8 while running. usually 14.1 to 14.4 but after a few more cold start cranks than normal i will see 14.8v for a bit. so my pump running at 11.5 vs 14.1 reduced fuel flow. not your issue but worth checking if there's a v drop??
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 14, 2019, 10:23:08 AM
you are correct, they are for vac/boost reference.  i know on the passenger vehichles i have worked on the vac reference is usually a 5 psi diff. in my case i set 43.5 psi with vac hose disconnected reconnect and it drops. i have 21" vac at idle. i read that article you posted the link too......very good article! i just would't have thought one would require such a large swing on psi but i can see why now.  your right, it must be your pumps or in the fueling system.
I have read that 2"vac =1psi.  with a 1:1 rate regulator I would expect to see your43.5 base without vac connected lower to approximately33psi. Is that what you see or do you use a rising rate regulator?
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 14, 2019, 11:01:34 AM
based on that info your on the threshold of 0 vac.Yes,a very low restriction intake tract. do you know the fuel pressure sensor reads correctly on your data log?Not at this time but is on list of things to check. i have one installed but its not stable at idle. i used the same one enemy uses and it is rock solid for him but not for myself. i have mine mounted in the same place he did as well.  also, does your fuel pump see batt voltage? Yes,but will of course double check.have you ever checked the ecu to verify that it is reading the same voltage as the batt?At this time all I can say is battery voltage is steadyacross all rpm ranges. 13.6-13.9 i had to correct my megasquirt, it red 1.5 volts less that what i saw at the batt. if the ecu thinks you have more or less voltage it changes everything.SFAIK the FAST ecu doesn't reference battery voltage but the battery and logged voltage are right on .

what i was getting at on batt volatge it that......inj dead times spec sheets show what they flow at different voltages.True the ecu needs that infor or should need that info to calculated required fuel based on available voltage. this will not cause fuel pressure to dip to 20 psi of course but if its off a bit then it could cause the inj's to flow less fuel than the ecu thinks and in turn you turn the pw up to compensate.I believe FASTs strategy is to use O2 readings to do the compensation instead of flow rates based on voltage. i would assume you needed or there is a place to add the inj deat time/flow info in the faste ecu?     i was mistaken earlier, my batt v's were only off .5 v from batt to what the ecu read.  my v gauge on my dash was off 1.5 v's.....chickity china gauge that is gone. 

on another note lol i forgot to reconnect my alt wire back to my batt after working on something before the fall dune trip. i turned the engine on and could not figure out why my afr gauge was reading low 15' to low 16's at idle! my alt keeps my v at 14.1 to 14.8 while running. usually 14.1 to 14.4 but after a few more cold start cranks than normal i will see 14.8v for a bit. so my pump running at 11.5 vs 14.1 reduced fuel flow. not your issue but worth checking if there's a v drop??I don't believe I have the issue but will check.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2019, 11:43:40 AM
mine is a 1:1 reg. i will have to turn it on and look at the gauge again to know for sure i do know it dropped it more than i thought it should.

it would be interesting to know how fast controls inj's w/o knowing dead times or flow rates. must be a pre set dead time setting and you just input what size inj's ? this of course is not your fuel psi issue just my curiosity on the system.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: fabr on October 14, 2019, 01:11:53 PM
FAST has differing levels of their EFI. The ones that use the 8 injector throttle bodies all use the same 74# injectors so I believe they have that info programmed into the software. For the top of the line system that allows the use of whatever injectors wanted I am sure the info is input to the software as with your system.
Title: Re: Soooooo How To Stop The Waterworks
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2019, 03:31:59 PM
hmmmm interesting.