DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)

Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: dsrace on November 22, 2018, 11:17:27 AM

Title: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 22, 2018, 11:17:27 AM
playing with the match bot calculator on borgwarners site. comparing 6258 vs 6758

so i think i should narrow down where i want/need my power band. looking back at my logs and having driven both ls and st a sand dunes, 2k to 4500 rpm is where i play. 5k to (current rev limit) 6200 rpm is rare and short lived as in 2 to 4 secs at best.  there is no room to run wot at 5 to 6k rpm with time to stop and maneuver around/away from people that have no depth perception. not sure if that problem is dna based or brown bottle flu but sure are a lot of them at the oklahoma dunes these days!

i say this as i adjusted the rpm points on this borgwarner match bot to target 2k to 4500 for my application. i have no issue dropping to 10 to 15 psi boost ( safer) at 5k and 6k rpm. at those rpm's this motor makes more than enough power to hold ground speed w/o issue. when we roll over the dune peaks diagonally we may spike 4.5/5k rpm or better for the top 30' just to hop off the peak to make the transition. once at the peak you have to let off the throttle as to not go sky diving down the back side. at this point i may be down to 2k/2500 rpm then need to rapidly accel again. no matter if i go to a 4 speed trans to drop gearing a bit or not, i have a comfort zone with ground speed. slightly deeper gearing would be for take off and accel but not to run higher rpms for more ground speed, but rather to maintain a comfortable ground speed with less throttle input for better control in those rpm ranges.

so this is why i think the borg warner efr 6258 seems better than the 6758..... opinions?




(https://i.postimg.cc/QFKsfXDt/6258-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/QFKsfXDt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CZj0Vmzp/6758.png) (https://postimg.cc/CZj0Vmzp)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VrgcJvq7/6258map-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/VrgcJvq7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DSGkqBQ4/6758map.png) (https://postimg.cc/DSGkqBQ4)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mtJWz09G/6258turbine-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/mtJWz09G)

(https://i.postimg.cc/67VkPqm9/6758-turbine.png) (https://postimg.cc/67VkPqm9)


Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 22, 2018, 11:21:51 AM
so best i can tell right now my megasand 3 speed is a 9.79 1st, 7.39 2nd and 5.75 3rd.
if i go to a 2d 4 speed i will pick 13.5/14 1st, 9.95/10.2 2nd 7.90 3rd and 5.65? 4th for a high rpm  bbyb gear? ( blow by your buddy)  :D

Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 22, 2018, 08:30:42 PM
It is highly driver preference. I like to run around 1/2 redline normally no matter what I'm driving . Doesn't matter if it's a high strung 2 stroke,a busa, a go kart(YXZ  :m) or a big ol' V8.  I like having the extra rpm on tap. You know,when in doubt - power out stuff.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
did you measure the shocks on the yxz?   

i am right there with ya on half throttle anymore. enemy can attest to that lol. i used to love ringing out the bike rpms but for some reason i have decided i like a 2k to 3k rpm bower band that does it all with a 1500 to 2k rpm band left on tap. now when discussing this on the turbo 2.3 forums they only know racing and dont understand this. big surprise huh well everyone says the 1st turbo is too small in will be happier with the 2nd. 1st is 6258 and 2nd 6758. the 6758 is better suited for 3 to 6k rpm as seen in the map and the 1st is better suited for 2k to 4500 /5k rpm. i can run to 6200 easy enough and seldom exceed 4500 according to my data logs as well at 50 to 60% tps lol  current turbo isnt real responsive with my gearing until 3/3500rpm is faster mph than i pre fer. deeper gearing solve this and runs $7500. this efr turbo would set me back $1700 and be capable of producing 5 to 10 psi  by 1800 rpm and 20 to 28 psi from 2500 or so to 5k rpm. 20 at 6k and 15 safely at 6500 rpm.  as seen in the pics above.

this is why i posted the info.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 23, 2018, 07:50:10 AM
Most hi perf guys/articles/beginners only look for max HP with little to no concern for true drivability. That's fine if all you do is drag race. Not worth a shit if the car has to be drivable/powerful at anything less than WOT. Ya gotta ignore,as I think you are now, those that only look at WOT numbers.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 23, 2018, 07:52:12 AM
yep! that's why i have switched back to the 6258 as i can run the higher boost at a more common/widely used rpm range that i already know i run at. it's hard to discuss this with those guys. they have experience and knowledge on the parts and set up but as you said, wot only.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 23, 2018, 07:59:38 AM
i will say that i do understand where there coming from, higher rpm builds more hp from these motors and equals more ground speed but i already have the ground speed from running the higher rpm because i have the turbo that builds boost in the higher rpm range  ;)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 23, 2018, 08:07:56 AM
yep! that's why i have switched back to the 6258 as i can run the higher boost at a more common/widely used rpm range that i already know i run at. it's hard to discuss this with those guys. they have experience and knowledge on the parts and set up but as you said, wot only.
The drag race performance guys can be equated to the CVT sxs guys. Only thing that matters is WOT. I would bet maybe 1 in a hundred have a clue how to build to a very wide,flat torque curve from mid rpm to redline.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 23, 2018, 08:09:47 AM
yep! that's why i have switched back to the 6258 as i can run the higher boost at a more common/widely used rpm range that i already know i run at. it's hard to discuss this with those guys. they have experience and knowledge on the parts and set up but as you said, wot only.
We have a winner!!!
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 23, 2018, 07:07:37 PM
did you measure the shocks on the yxz?   

i am right there with ya on half throttle anymore. enemy can attest to that lol. i used to love ringing out the bike rpms but for some reason i have decided i like a 2k to 3k rpm bower band that does it all with a 1500 to 2k rpm band left on tap. now when discussing this on the turbo 2.3 forums they only know racing and dont understand this. big surprise huh well everyone says the 1st turbo is too small in will be happier with the 2nd. 1st is 6258 and 2nd 6758. the 6758 is better suited for 3 to 6k rpm as seen in the map and the 1st is better suited for 2k to 4500 /5k rpm. i can run to 6200 easy enough and seldom exceed 4500 according to my data logs as well at 50 to 60% tps lol  current turbo isnt real responsive with my gearing until 3/3500rpm is faster mph than i pre fer. deeper gearing solve this and runs $7500. this efr turbo would set me back $1700 and be capable of producing 5 to 10 psi  by 1800 rpm and 20 to 28 psi from 2500 or so to 5k rpm. 20 at 6k and 15 safely at 6500 rpm.  as seen in the pics above.

this is why i posted the info.
I was changing all the paddles to knobbys today and it slipped my mind. Will try to not forget tomorrow. We're going to terrorize the countryside since it's going to be sunny and 70ish. I did look at the shocks though. 3 have fox performance series that have the same high/low speed compression adjustability with just high speed bump adjustment. 1 has the dual rate spring package on the X2 as you posted. IMO,either would work as well as or better than the ones that are just adjustable with shim pack changes. These can still have different shim packs but with the added external adjustability. I haven't played with adjusting them yet so I have no idea how much of a range the external adjustments will have.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 09:28:48 AM
6258 efr with my info

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.4&displacement=2.324&CID=141.81047999999998&altitude=1400&baro=14.135&aat=85&fueltype=3&turboconfig=1&compressor=62k80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=8&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=58&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1450&pt1_ter=1.36&pt1_pw=2.64&pt1_bsfc=0.62&pt1_afr=9&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=2500&pt2_ve=90&pt2_boost=24&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=62&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1550&pt2_ter=2.05&pt2_pw=6.43&pt2_bsfc=0.65&pt2_afr=8.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=3000&pt3_ve=95&pt3_boost=24&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=67&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=2.18&pt3_pw=18.02&pt3_bsfc=0.69&pt3_afr=8&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=4000&pt4_ve=95&pt4_boost=26&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=74&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=2.47&pt4_pw=33.8&pt4_bsfc=0.72&pt4_afr=8&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=4500&pt5_ve=94&pt5_boost=28&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=76&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=2.69&pt5_pw=36.15&pt5_bsfc=0.75&pt5_afr=8&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=5000&pt6_ve=92&pt6_boost=26&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=75&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=2.69&pt6_pw=38.26&pt6_bsfc=0.79&pt6_afr=8&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 09:29:18 AM
efr 6758 with my info

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.4&displacement=2.3&CID=140.346&altitude=1400&baro=14.135&aat=85&fueltype=3&turboconfig=1&compressor=67x80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=5&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=55&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1450&pt1_ter=1.27&pt1_pw=11.69&pt1_bsfc=0.62&pt1_afr=9&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=2500&pt2_ve=90&pt2_boost=16&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=58&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1550&pt2_ter=1.74&pt2_pw=5.86&pt2_bsfc=0.65&pt2_afr=8.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=3000&pt3_ve=95&pt3_boost=20&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=63&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=2&pt3_pw=19.65&pt3_bsfc=0.69&pt3_afr=8&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=4000&pt4_ve=95&pt4_boost=26&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=67&pt4_te=70&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=2.62&pt4_pw=30.12&pt4_bsfc=0.72&pt4_afr=8&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=4500&pt5_ve=94&pt5_boost=28&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=70&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=2.79&pt5_pw=32.84&pt5_bsfc=0.75&pt5_afr=8&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=6000&pt6_ve=92&pt6_boost=28&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=72&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=3.18&pt6_pw=40.94&pt6_bsfc=0.79&pt6_afr=8&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 09:30:50 AM
the tq diff vs rpm vs boost pressure is amazing between the two compressors. same hot sides just diff cold side.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 10:20:49 AM
just amazing. for comparison i looked at my data log of the last night ride at LS. ilding/curising along at low rpm then giving it 34 to 40%% tps i only see 1 psi boost ( via map sensor through tuner studio) by 2k rpm roughly. so according the bw calculator , i can safely achieve 8 psi by 2 k rpm which is a 68ft lb tq increase from current, that's HUGE!
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 24, 2018, 12:07:22 PM
ain't science cool?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 12:14:33 PM
yes it is! a user on turboford sent me a link with the ford stock timing map for an auto and manual trans. he's running a 2.5 4cyl but runs, basically the auto trans timing map. basically same for he 2.3 and 2.5 ford since the 2.5 is a  factory stroked 2.3. he runs 8 to 12 more * advance than i do in the low load low rpm area's than i and is geared a but high as well in 1 st gear. says it makes a good diff.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 24, 2018, 04:00:47 PM
Not trying to be a smart ass but do you know how to properly read plugs?  Many think they do but don't. I admit I didn't for many,many years.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 05:59:41 PM
lets find out....how does one properly read plugs?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 06:01:07 PM
here are the plugs i installed right before the LS trip, gapped .024. they appear bright white in the pic but they are a very slight tan in person. i like a slight a tan color but have figured the e85 may have an effect on plugs. no real soot or build up either or signs of burning but again 1 trip to LS.

(https://i.postimg.cc/14Z1WCRh/thumbnail-IMG-20181111-120948.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/14Z1WCRh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/w3c8nX3t/thumbnail-IMG-20181111-121550.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3c8nX3t)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 24, 2018, 07:28:04 PM
i read a similar article a while back but basically this is what i have gone by.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Reading%20Spark%20Plugs.html
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 25, 2018, 12:01:05 AM
i read a similar article a while back but basically this is what i have gone by.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Reading%20Spark%20Plugs.html
It is partially correct. I'll be on the road tomorrow. Won't be able to reply/discuss till back.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: budlight69 on November 25, 2018, 07:08:59 AM
i read a similar article a while back but basically this is what i have gone by.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Reading%20Spark%20Plugs.html

You should ignore the first sentence in the article.  You can destroy a turbos bearings quick doing a full throttle run and then quickly shutting down the engine.  The rest was good info. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 25, 2018, 09:57:21 AM
you are correct budlight, that part is pure fiction!  all turbo's need a cool down and actually, even though that slow ride from the gate to the camp ground should be a good cool down for them i still let mine idle for a few mins before shutting it off. the one thing i have never seen nor heard about is how to read them on  e85. this is the part i am hoping fabr can shed some light on, if there is a diff overall.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 25, 2018, 10:10:32 AM
a company called full race sells the efr turbo's. i contacted them via email and told gave them my info on motor and goals. he told me that neither the 6258 nor 6758 are suitable turbo options and that i would need the EFR 7163 ( all top end as i have now). now the 6758 as seen in the pic above works well up to 6500 rpm at 25 psi boost. i don't run 6500 rpm but have pushed 7500 rm with the previous cam and had the engine balanced higher yet. i honestly see no reason to run 6500 rpm especially at LS dunes! so i need/want a turbo that is all bottom end and midrange for throttle control of the power rather than wot to rev limit and shift lol as seen in the map pic, the 6758 would be riding the surge line to the left at 2k rpm and below. possible most/ all sub 3k rpm. this is just un heard of to these people as they don't run those rpms but all of us do! hell to the gate and back to start with let alone many other times. i tried to explain this but he just can't wrap his head around it at all!  i was told that i need to set power goals then choose a turbo based on that. i said ok ....350 ft lbs tq , linear from idle to 4500 rpm. that still didn't get through lol lol i don't care if i have to set my rev limit to 5500 or 6k rpm and even then i will have to pull boost back to 15 to 20 psi via my electronic boost controller by 5500 and 6k rpm. i told this person no big deal as at that rpm the motor already has enough power to finish the climb, pull to the end of the run, basically do what ever i expect of it at that moment in the sand. told him it was rare to even hit those rpms and even then 2 to 4 secs on the long side.  he is a wealth of knowledge with turbo's but just can't grasp this concept.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 25, 2018, 06:55:03 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with the harm in doing a clean cut at the end of a WOT run. I see no harm in it. Everything in the turbo will handle it just fine. On the other hand ,I agree totally if we are talking about doing a clean cut after running the engine for more than just a WOT pull to redline such as after a dune run and everythng is heat soaked but, since we are talking about reading plugs we wouldn't be doing anything other than a WOT run to redline anyway so ,no harm in doing a clean cut.

 Since it's much easier to just post a link to what I believe to be more accurate plug reading info  here is one.    http://www.autorepairinstructions.com/archives/reading-a-spark-plug/    Notice the info on the ground strap and how it relates to timing and not to plug heat range.Also notice the info on the threads and how that is the determining factor for heat range ,not the ground strap.When reading e85 plugs these things are what you are looking for especially since e85 adds little to no color to the plug. Jetting/efi settings are best made with a AFR log or better yet on a dyno and not by plug colors. Bear in mind the only thing any of this applies to is WOT
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 25, 2018, 07:10:48 PM
This is a link to a short explanation of reading the ground strap for timing adjusting from E3. It's got the basic stuff as usual to skip through but reaffirms the difference in what your link says and what plug makers say. This is why I asked about what you know about plugs. What you posted is what I had always been told but now I know better.I found this more accurate info when researching e85 tuning stuff.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/spark-plug-reading-101-dont-leave-hp-table/

Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 25, 2018, 08:54:12 PM
This is a link to a short explanation of reading the ground strap for timing adjusting from E3. It's got the basic stuff as usual to skip through but reaffirms the difference in what your link says and what plug makers say. This is why I asked about what you know about plugs. What you posted is what I had always been told but now I know better.I found this more accurate info when researching e85 tuning stuff.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/spark-plug-reading-101-dont-leave-hp-table/


good article, didn't know about the faint pencil line around the base. also he does state that e85 leaves a lighter color behind than gas. and better defines the ground strap signs. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on April 23, 2019, 09:22:29 PM
installed the 6758 efr turbo and made 10 pass's through the field sat and sun. wow! these turbo's are amazing and the dead stop take off is waaaaaaaay better! the turbo spools insanely fast! i'm only up to 25 psi right now so prob dial it in and turn it up to 30 while at the dunes or maybe leave it as that is a riot too!

shit the ebc ( electronic boost controller ) off to see what spring pressure would be. it sits at 16 psi so really if i was reduced to 91 octane pump gas i would be safe at 16 psi, not as much fun at 25 or 30 psi but can be done.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on April 24, 2019, 11:37:17 AM
just a couple pics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tYBZ0dYP/IMG-20190414-085503.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYBZ0dYP)

(https://i.postimg.cc/crxg5k40/IMG-20190414-092953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crxg5k40)

(https://i.postimg.cc/6TL4cxKM/IMG-20190414-093025.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TL4cxKM)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WF0T2V8C/IMG-20190414-141536.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WF0T2V8C)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ThXWnYzy/IMG-20190414-141606.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ThXWnYzy)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0zH8ncrW/IMG-20190414-142544.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zH8ncrW)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sBQ3N7hV/IMG-20190414-152051.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sBQ3N7hV)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hXGDVH4Q/IMG-20190414-152738.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXGDVH4Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LgRR5W0X/IMG-20190422-194202.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LgRR5W0X)

(https://i.postimg.cc/06T9RjY7/IMG-20190422-194235.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/06T9RjY7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/N24tHxWx/IMG-20190422-194441.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N24tHxWx)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qzwBhkrd/IMG-20190422-202209.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzwBhkrd)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on April 26, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
this new turbo should prove to awaken my rail. we'll find out in a few days!
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 26, 2019, 07:17:54 AM
so i thought would add to this about the 6758 efr turbo selection........... so i can say that on data logs , i see 1 psi boost as low as 900 rpm on a dead stop take off. i am still pertty sure my mechanical timing is retarded alot but we will see soon enough.  the efr turbo hits 30 psi rediculously fast as in pretty much anything over 2500 plus rpm i can go from 10% tps to 90% and control boost level by foot. very impressive little turbo, expensive but very impressive!!  i pulled the rail in fri to start tear down but wound up having to work on something else. so i hope to start this weekend. i will be sending the trans off and while the engine is on the stand it will get a new head and timed properly using a degree ring!  also the ls coils i have been using as has enemy.....are just not strong enough over 25 psi. enemy bought ign 1a coils and i think i will be too. i  believe he was down to .0016 plug gap at 30 psi plus to keep it from blowing spark out. the ign 1a coils are a little hotter lol i can get away with .020 gap up to 25 psi. in fact with the Ls coils i can get away with .024 gap up to 25 psi. go over that and there is just not enough energy there, of course e85 may have something to do with this also. not sure
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 26, 2019, 09:09:17 AM
i havent bought the coils yet but i should've as i will have to make new mounts for them and prob wires. so all the info on the ford turbo 2.3 forums is that ls coils work great. here's the part that has me wondering why enemy and i have issues and the vast majority do not. i have even posted that question and no one has a reasonable answer lol  so i'm obviously  on and off the throttle more than someone on a track. i have higher compressions than most at 9:1 vs stock 8:1.  stock comp they say 145 psi for a cold crank comp test......my weakest cyl is 195 and best is 200 psi. enemies c/r is 8.25:1 and i dont know about comp test. the interesting part is we both have flame blow out about the same rpm ish. so i really wonder A. how many push 30 plus psi....... B. how many do it on e85.  i say this as with more fuel i would guess more to flood a plug along with higher air flow.

when doug had his rail ( turbo 2.3) dynond the first thing that tuner said was plugs are too hot. so he swapped them out to colder ones. those were the same plugs i and enemy used w/o issue and at 10 to 15 psi higher levels than dougs engine. most on the forum say no irridium or platinum plugs just copper but the platnum actually perform better in the form of better throttle response and noticable to myself. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 26, 2019, 01:03:25 PM
current coils ac delco coil d514a 

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ign-1a-race-coil/
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 26, 2019, 01:30:42 PM
really isn't crap for info on the ls coil i run.  The dwell time for an LS2 coil at 13 volts is 3.15ms, taken directly from an LS2 ecu

interesing info on this site   http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=61256
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 28, 2019, 08:37:38 AM
Why don't you guys just run MSD or something better instead of trying to piece together a system that works no better and be done with it?  BTW,just my opinion,those dinky plug gaps are not good in any sense of the word. A nice big spark beats a dinky spark every time.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: Enemy on November 28, 2019, 11:50:10 AM
"My Spark Disappeared" ?
No thanks lol. That would be a step backward! We are running a sequential system just as good or better than oem, problem is EBAY LS "style" coils. Questionable as to what quality we got, but i have them supporting 450ish hp outa 4 holes with a .016 gap. I get blow-out with anymore boost, and I will run a proven reliable coil with more dwell to fix that with more gap. And it's apple to oranges, but the old school turbo 2.3 dudes are pushing over 700+ blowing 35 psi through a carb, a distributor with plugs gaped at .08ish spinning 8000 rpm and a single coil. No MSD.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 28, 2019, 01:22:34 PM
BS. Nothing wrong with msd 6or7 series . Not saying there's anything wrong with what you guys are doing but you are having/have had issues apparently .  I've run msd systems for 20+ years w
Ithout missing a beat. Plenty joules for you too. BUT, I do understand where you are coming from. Carry on. 8)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 28, 2019, 05:51:31 PM
Do any of the high boost guys use a cutback side electrode?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 29, 2019, 07:10:17 AM
i cannot say if they do or not, i can say that most statements i see on the ford forums are stick with oem old school copper plugs.  i have wondered about the no foul plugs used in two stroke boat motors.  i cannot find the article i read but i do remember reading somewhere that the ign a coils were developed for a marine application again if i remember right lol   

enemy has closed his gap to .016 i think, and i have set mine at .020 and turned my tables down to 25 psi and honestly 25 psi is plenty but 30 to 35 is just more fun  ;D ;) LMAO    i would pre fer to run maintain .020 or get back to .024 gap which is why i have been looking at the ign 1a coils.   i could be wrong but the smaller the gap the colder the spark.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3mv3jbh/NGK-5626-ml.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3mv3jbh)



(https://i.postimg.cc/N2KbpYF4/ngk-1006-xl.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N2KbpYF4)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 29, 2019, 07:12:38 AM
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 29, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
i cannot say if they do or not, i can say that most statements i see on the ford forums are stick with oem old school copper plugs.  i have wondered about the no foul plugs used in two stroke boat motors.  i cannot find the article i read but i do remember reading somewhere that the ign a coils were developed for a marine application again if i remember right lol   

enemy has closed his gap to .016 i think, and i have set mine at .020 and turned my tables down to 25 psi and honestly 25 psi is plenty but 30 to 35 is just more fun  ;D ;) LMAO    i would pre fer to run maintain .020 or get back to .024 gap which is why i have been looking at the ign 1a coils.   i could be wrong but the smaller the gap the colder the spark.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3mv3jbh/NGK-5626-ml.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3mv3jbh)



(https://i.postimg.cc/N2KbpYF4/ngk-1006-xl.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N2KbpYF4)
True no matter what the boosted or race application. We can go into why later if you wish. "marine plugs are resistor plugs that use an inductive resistor for the MARINE specific CD ignitions such as Evinrude and another one or 2. Using those plugs with anything other than those few marine cd ignitions will burn out the resistor and permanently kill the plug from any further use. Yes,MSD and other automotive are cd ignitions but they do not function as the marine cd ignitions. Again,more on that later if you wish.

Now let's discuss this notion of blowing out the spark. It DOES NOT happen. Period. What occurs is the spark cannot develop in the first place for just one reason. There are too many oxygen molecules in the gap. The wider the gap the more molecules that can be jammed into the gap. Oxygen and all the other gasses making up our atmosphere are actually insulators and poor conductors.Soooo,the higher the boost,the more insulators are in a gap. Narrowing the gap is just a band-aid for a weak ignition system. The more joules that can be developed by the ignition system,the wider the gap can be. It's just the facts of the matter. I don't care who the manufacturer is. What is the advantage of a tight gap? Basically none and should be avoided. What are the advantages of a wider gap? Welll,a larger,hotter spark kernal that is exposed to a lot more of the fuel to initiate combustion. That's what.

Bottom line is that you need a higher energy ignition system. All there is to it. You are correct ,the smaller the gap the cooler the spark and the more likely it can be quenched . What is spark quench? It is a spark without enough energy to maintain itself due to too low temperature and is basically absorbed back into the center electrode before combustion can be initiated. Nothing that can happen to a spark is even remotely the same as blowing it out. It is just a weak ignition system.

That surface discharge plug you posted is a very limited use plug for rotaries and other specialty use that will not perform well in most things at all.

You CAN get back to .020 or .024 or even more. It's not an issue,not ven black magic,just get your available joules up to what is needed by either buying a proven system or piecing together something that works with enough experimentation.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 29, 2019, 01:37:26 PM
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 29, 2019, 01:50:25 PM
BTW,most forum posters are FOS. There are only a very few forums that I have found with truly informed members. Most are full of dimwits that know a lot about hearsay BS but never bother to dig till they find where the real knowledge lies.It figures though since most of those guys hide from the know it all,won't listen to a thing forum gurus. When I call the manufacturers and get far enough along the chain,I never,ever question what they are willing to share. I just ask for all the info I can get. THEN,usually they get pretty willing to share. Ya better have done your homework first though since they can spot an imposter/uninformed in a heartbeat and they will clam up faster than you can blow out a spark. :m

Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 29, 2019, 02:03:11 PM
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? Can they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 30, 2019, 07:51:27 AM
i did find a pic of the Champion c61hcx, i am intrigued. i did not find any real info on it. i wonder if ngk makes a similar plug?
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXM9Jpx6/index.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nXM9Jpx6)
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 30, 2019, 08:14:33 AM
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? Can they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.

i do know that we are not actually " blowing the spark out" just a term commonly used on the net so i do so for all to follow along.
 
gm ls coils are claimed to run safely up to 4.5 ms before saturation and auto ign becomes an issue. auto ignition is to be avoided at all costs lol very bad lol.  that would be gm ls coils and not the internet knock off specials.  now with shorter spark plug wires and running seq as i am and not wasted spark, i would think i and enemy's would have better recharge times for proper dwell. also have to remember we run the cas system so no dizzy where a number on those forums run dizzy'z.

like i said earlier i have tried the stock plugs, i then tried the split fire iridium many say not too and now just iridium. i can tell a diff and they are def better then stock copper core plugs.  now that champion looks intriguing

another thought is that where i am running a lower resistance wire than stock LS wires i am slighter longer. i have wondered what factor that could throw in as well. those ign 1a coils are higher mj and offer longer spark duration. now i may not even have the mj of the gm as mine are probably not original gm coils. i ran .024 gap before and it ran fine up to 25 psi as well but stumbled beyond. i set them at .020 for the last trip and planned on adding some duty cycle to send it back to 30 but with the exh leak i knew my 02 sensor wasn't going to be right so i left it as is and enjoyed the trip. while it's tore apart i plan on making a change. so great discussion.

 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 30, 2019, 08:15:54 AM
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

this i do not know, but would like to


i have tried the version with the v groove in the electrode. i have not tried the model with multiple ground straps.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 30, 2019, 08:46:40 AM
here is an interesting concept........ a person i have spoken with but do not actually know or have met, runs a dual plug head ( dp head). in the ranger n/a 2.3 4 cyl engines say 97 and later i think, they made dp heads which i believe was for emissions. now BO ( the person i speak of) runs an older pantera ecu that allows him to run all 8 coils. he runs fords coil on plug ( cop) which look similar to the busa coils that i call stick coils. he is able to fire the 2nd set of 4 coils off 9* later than the primary 4 coils and has gained some midrange and top end from this on the dyno. as i said i do not know him, he is a friend of a friend and have only spoken with him, but i do believe him as i can see this. he too runs a turbo 2.3 on e85 with the same size inj's and pump as i do.

another interesting talk i had, with the guy rebuilding dougs 2.3 engine, was that the conservative hot and cold timing maps included with out ecu's from stinger are both overly conservative lol. again i do not know this guy but he is very passionate about the the turbo 2.3's and has built quite a few all tuned on the dyno. we didn't discuss what kind of dyno  and he does not tune them himself but has a good understanding of it. he makes 500 rwhp  out of his 2 current turbo 2.3's ( ones stuffed in a beetle lol ) and has one high comp n/a 2.3. the interesting part was when he told me he makes that at only 20 psi boost. now obviously that is a larger turbo than i run and that deducts from lower rpm spool time. i did not get a chance to ask which coils he ran as we  discussed other things, such as he spins his to 8200 rpm and dougs engine. he asked what my timing was at 20 psi at higher load cells as he runs 27*, we both run e85 fuel. the stinger hot ign map at 5k rpm and 320 kpa is 17* as i am looking at it right now and at 6500 rpm and 320 kpa is 18.5*.  he also told me based on his experience in the 2.3 realm that my 200 psi cold cranking comp test  vs stock 140 psi is actually closer to 10.5:1 rather than the 9:1 comp ratio i believe it to be.  he started to explain why the 2.3 is a trickier engine to calculate than most but the conversation was re directed back to 27* advance timing. we all know what that equates to !! the tuner he works with apparently is well versed with the 2.3 engines as well as several turbo e85 engines.  again i do not know this guy and have only spoken with him as he is re building dougs engine. he is as passionate about the 2.3's as spec was/is about jerkey!  ;D reminded me of paul ( spec ) on the phone.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 30, 2019, 11:07:47 AM
i did find a pic of the Champion c61hcx, i am intrigued. i did not find any real info on it. i wonder if ngk makes a similar plug?
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXM9Jpx6/index.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nXM9Jpx6)
Yes but not as far cut back. The NGK is as in the pic I posted. I like the Champion . It was in the SB2.2 heads I got. Had never seen a factory cut back as far. A spark is easier developed/received from a sharp edge. With it cut back that far there are 2 distinct sharp edges making a spark much more likely to successfully develop.  I'll touch on the other posts later when I get time. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on November 30, 2019, 01:12:53 PM
with it cut back like the champion....i wonder if that helps with flame front during combustion in the champer as well with less shrouding so to speak?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 30, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
with it cut back like the champion....i wonder if that helps with flame front during combustion in the champer as well with less shrouding so to speak?
Absolutely the reason for it.That is also why a plug like it will normally require a bit less advance timing.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on November 30, 2019, 04:57:13 PM
what would be the advantage to the cut back side electrode vs a v fire/split shot or the double electrode style?
The cutback ground strap exposes a lot more of the spark kernel to the mixture and will initiate combustion much better since it is not shrouded or shadowed by the strap.

I have been researching this stuff for the last few months and the info is hard to find on the net but all plug companies agree with what I have said.

Just for grins and giggles google up Champion c61hcx and look at that cut back strap. It is much further cut back than the pic I posted.The spark generated from it will be almost as wide as the center electrode and fully exposed to the air/fuel mixture. A nice big, fat , hot spark. That will actually reduce timing required by 1-2 degrees due to the much better/larger flame that will occur from not being shadowed.

 Answer me this. How many sparks are generated by a split fire or multi ground strap plug and why do they exist?

this i do not know, but would like to


i have tried the version with the v groove in the electrode. i have not tried the model with multiple ground straps.
Have a bit of time to answer this one. More on the others later.

Many people are under the impression that they generate multiple sparks. This is wrong. A plug only generates one spark per coil firing.

The split fire was designed to allow a longer plug service life.  A spark will always take the path of least resistance. With multiple edges available ,the wear that occurs to the ground strap is spread over more edges. This in effect cuts gap opening wear in half or so and allows service life to be increased the theory is. Then the marketing gurus saw an opportunity to hype them as multiple spark plugs even though it is totally false. This info is from the other manufactures. Same exact thing with multi ground strap designs. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 01, 2019, 06:55:17 AM
well i am glad you took the time to contact the manufacturers. that is the only way to get answers anymore. that champion plug at first glance looks tricky to gap but i can see it now. i think i will have to try a set of those to see as i know the irridium plugs i use now do have a seat of pants effect vs the standard copper style.  so i understand what your saying.....the larger the gap, hotter the spark the less timing advance one would need? obviously were not talking about pulling 10* of timing  but some. maybe that's why i feel the diff in a better plug if mike is correct that these motors ( turbo 2.3) can run 27* at 20 psi in high load cells and i am 17*.  it will be interesting to see how well dougs turns out.  i have been contemplating going back to the stock length gm plug wire in the lower resistance wires of course and mounting my coils on the valve cover along with the ign 1a coils and i think i may try those champion plugs if they offer them in the correct size for my application. i have never been a fan of champion brand plugs as i have never gotten any good life out of them but it has been years since i tried them.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 01, 2019, 06:41:47 PM
Another question,how many MS does it take to fully saturate an automotive CD ignition system coil? 1ms or less. Some are as fast as .5msCan they saturate too long?  If they can saturate for too long what is the usual result? I see you know the answer to the last questions.I have the answers ,just wondering if you do.

i do know that we are not actually " blowing the spark out" just a term commonly used on the net so i do so for all to follow along.
 
gm ls coils are claimed to run safely up to 4.5 ms before saturation and auto ign becomes an issue. auto ignition is to be avoided at all costs lol very bad lol.  that would be gm ls coils and not the internet knock off specials.  now with shorter spark plug wires and running seq as i am and not wasted spark, i would think i and enemy's would have better recharge times for proper dwell. also have to remember we run the cas system so no dizzy where a number on those forums run dizzy'z.

like i said earlier i have tried the stock plugs, i then tried the split fire iridium many say not too and now just iridium. i can tell a diff and they are def better then stock copper core plugs.  now that champion looks intriguing  Here is some info I was given .I believe it addresses a couple things.
  Copper is one of the best conductors of electricity and heat, but they just plain dont last mileage wise. Iridium & Platinum last 10 fold longer thus the reason why auto manufactures use these. Coppers can last 5K miles if the engine is operating optimally. Platinum and Iridium plugs have a center electrode (fine-wire) that is thin. Under high boost application they get so hot they will begin to "heat glow" and cause premature ignition in the combustion cycle (pre-ignition => detonation) unless they were properly designed to pull the heat. This is a problem for all of the turbo guys running high boost. Copper on the other hand, has a much thicker center electrode, on top of that, the copper material is able to dissapate heat from the combustion chamber fast enough to keep the combustion temperatures lower. Coppers use thicker electrodes simply based on the fact that they can easily jump the spark, whereas platinum and iridiums will require a fine wire to better direct the spark to prevent missfires.

Remember the TWO primary functions of a sparkplug:
1) To efficiently ignite the A/F mixture without missfires (gap..etc)
2) To pull heat from the combustion chamber into the head, where the cooling system should dissapate that heat. (Heat Range)

A platinum/Iridium plug in a colder heat range usually runs just as hot as a copper in the standard heat range when under high stress. So many people will use a Platinum/Iridum plug TWO steps colder to counter that. But using a plug that is 2 steps colder, will lead to two things:

1) More prone to carbon-fouling on "normal driving" where EGT's are kept low. (Plugs must stay above 550C Deg to burn off excess carbon deposits to "self-clean")
2) As a result, loss of horsepower from a less efficient/inhibited spark.

You need a plug that is actually "hot enough" to ignite the A/F mixture as hot as possible to get the most efficient combustion, as well as burn off carbon-deposits (~550C deg), and yet cold enough to prevent pre-ignition when compression is high (< 870C Deg).


another thought is that where i am running a lower resistance wire than stock LS wires i am slighter longer. i have wondered what factor that could throw in as well. I have that  info somewhere but IIRC ,the higher the resistance in the coil to plug gap circuit the higher the voltage will be and the lower the delivered amps. Hence the general use of helically wound low resistance core wires. Helical wound for EMI suppression which is critical to our ECU's those ign 1a coils are higher mj and offer longer spark duration. now i may not even have the mj of the gm as mine are probably not original gm coils. i ran .024 gap before and it ran fine up to 25 psi as well but stumbled beyond. i set them at .020 for the last trip and planned on adding some duty cycle to send it back to 30 but with the exh leak i knew my 02 sensor wasn't going to be right so i left it as is and enjoyed the trip. while it's tore apart i plan on making a change. so great discussion.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 01, 2019, 06:52:56 PM
well i am glad you took the time to contact the manufacturers. that is the only way to get answers anymore. that champion plug at first glance looks tricky to gap but i can see it now.From what I undestand you won't change it's gap but just slightly.It might not work well for you but the NGK cutbacks should allow a  bit more gap adjustment i think i will have to try a set of those to see as i know the irridium plugs i use now do have a seat of pants effect vs the standard copper style.  so i understand what your saying.....the larger the gap, hotter the spark the less timing advance one would need? obviously were not talking about pulling 10* of timing  but some. Maybe 1 degree but it shows how much better the flame front is propogated.maybe that's why i feel the diff in a better plug if mike is correct that these motors ( turbo 2.3) can run 27* at 20 psi in high load cells and i am 17*.  it will be interesting to see how well dougs turns out.  i have been contemplating going back to the stock length gm plug wire in the lower resistance wires of course and mounting my coils on the valve cover along with the ign 1a coils and i think i may try those champion plugs if they offer them in the correct size for my application. You'd have to call them. The ones that fit my SB2.2 heads are only offered in 3 heat ranges equivalent to NGK 8,9,9.5i have never been a fan of champion brand plugs as i have never gotten any good life out of them but it has been years since i tried them.Same here but I'll be at least trying what this engine had in it initially. I probably should post an brief update on the old cup engine conversion.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 01, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
here is an interesting concept........ a person i have spoken with but do not actually know or have met, runs a dual plug head ( dp head). in the ranger n/a 2.3 4 cyl engines say 97 and later i think, they made dp heads which i believe was for emissions. now BO ( the person i speak of) runs an older pantera ecu that allows him to run all 8 coils. he runs fords coil on plug ( cop) which look similar to the busa coils that i call stick coils. he is able to fire the 2nd set of 4 coils off 9* later than the primary 4 coils and has gained some midrange and top end from this on the dyno.I saved this for last. I honestly don't know what to think other than I gotta see back to back dyno sheets of all coils firing at same BTDC timing and then with 4 firing 9* later, In the meantime I will just say I'm skeptical,VERY skeptical. as i said i do not know him, he is a friend of a friend and have only spoken with him, but i do believe him as i can see this. he too runs a turbo 2.3 on e85 with the same size inj's and pump as i do.

another interesting talk i had, with the guy rebuilding dougs 2.3 engine, was that the conservative hot and cold timing maps included with out ecu's from stinger are both overly conservative lol. again i do not know this guy but he is very passionate about the the turbo 2.3's and has built quite a few all tuned on the dyno. we didn't discuss what kind of dyno  and he does not tune them himself but has a good understanding of it. he makes 500 rwhp  out of his 2 current turbo 2.3's ( ones stuffed in a beetle lol ) and has one high comp n/a 2.3. the interesting part was when he told me he makes that at only 20 psi boost. now obviously that is a larger turbo than i run and that deducts from lower rpm spool time. i did not get a chance to ask which coils he ran as we  discussed other things, such as he spins his to 8200 rpm and dougs engine. he asked what my timing was at 20 psi at higher load cells as he runs 27*, we both run e85 fuel. the stinger hot ign map at 5k rpm and 320 kpa is 17* as i am looking at it right now and at 6500 rpm and 320 kpa is 18.5*.  he also told me based on his experience in the 2.3 realm that my 200 psi cold cranking comp test  vs stock 140 psi is actually closer to 10.5:1 rather than the 9:1 comp ratio i believe it to be.  he started to explain why the 2.3 is a trickier engine to calculate than most but the conversation was re directed back to 27* advance timing. we all know what that equates to !! the tuner he works with apparently is well versed with the 2.3 engines as well as several turbo e85 engines.  again i do not know this guy and have only spoken with him as he is re building dougs engine. he is as passionate about the 2.3's as spec was/is about jerkey!  ;D  reminded me of paul ( spec ) on the phone.
I'm sorry but that speaks for itself....................I would just say start conservative on timing to avoid detonation while being aware that too retarded is just about as bad as too advanced. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 03, 2019, 07:07:31 AM
good info for all
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 03, 2019, 11:37:52 AM
https://www.ngk.com/learning-center/article/772/ngk-ground-electrode-designs
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 03, 2019, 11:46:41 AM
i find the low angled ground electrode .....A smaller electrode requires less voltage to jump the gap, resulting in fewer misfires, which translates to increased fuel economy and horsepower.  A smaller electrode also reduces flame quenching. 
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 11, 2019, 08:57:21 AM
i did some searching and found the ngk cut back plugs. summit has them , would require a .040 spacer , decent price but......none of them are R plugs.  my wires are R but based on what i read on ngk's site, R plugs are to combat emi vs R wires are for rfi. for some reason i cannot look that plug up on ngk so i will have to call and ask if the make a cut back R plug.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 11, 2019, 01:55:28 PM
Spacer?
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 11, 2019, 08:07:38 PM
that plug is .040 longer than mine. so w/o knowing where its longer i just say i would need a spacer.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 11, 2019, 08:37:19 PM
thread length/reach is all that matters. That should be consistent brand to brand. Any overall length diff should be in the body/insulator.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 11, 2019, 08:43:33 PM
i did some searching and found the ngk cut back plugs. summit has them , would require a .040 spacer , decent price but......none of them are R plugs.  my wires are R but based on what i read on ngk's site, R plugs are to combat emi vs R wires are for rfi. for some reason i cannot look that plug up on ngk so i will have to call and ask if the make a cut back R plug.
NGK plugs with an R in the number are not resistor plugs.R stands for racing in NGK lingo. I was fooled by that for some time. I haven't seen any EFI issues with using helically wound suppressor wires and non resistor plugs with EMI/RFI interference -in my application.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2019, 08:47:20 AM
the summit ad said non resistor plug. some plugs an R does mean race and some it means resistor, brand to brand thing. i meant meant resistor as in i need a resistor plug.  no response from ngk yet.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 13, 2019, 06:45:03 AM
so come to find out in ngk's case, red pn# on the plug means non resistor plug. also i sent a pic of the cut back plug to the ngk rep last night to see what he can come up with. based on the specs of my engines his program says i should be running heat range 7 vs the 5's i am currently. 5 is hotter than 7 in ngk's heat range.
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: fabr on December 13, 2019, 07:40:41 PM
Here is a link to "all" the NGK numbering systems. I say all because the plug I was using is a R5671A-8  or 4554. It doesn't correspond to anything but the heat range at the end. This is where I got confused since NGK told me the R didn't stand for resistor and it doesn't for this plug.Apparently an R at the beginning stands for racing but if elsewhere in the number it is for resistor. 

https://www.ngk.com/learning-center/article/174/ngk-numbering-systems
Title: Re: turbo selection
Post by: dsrace on December 15, 2019, 06:41:26 AM
there a hard company to read lol  i really like the idea of the cut back plug style but they don't offer it in a resistor plug i guess. he only said they don't offer a cut back for my application. didn't elaborate on that but he did ask for specific info on how my engine was built. he specifically asked what my cold crank comp was as well as a few other specs. i was surprised that there data says i should be running a #7 heat range which is 2 heat ranges colder than my current plug which is a 5. i will give that a try and see what changes it makes but what i can say for sure is that at .024 gap on tr5 plugs vs the autolite copper ( stock) i did notice a better throttle response. i am now gapped .020 and do not want to go smaller which is why i am going with the ign ia coils.  honestly i  should be able to keep them gapped .024 and be fine but if need be i can always limit boost to 25 or 27 psi rather than 30.