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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: BrianN on June 22, 2018, 06:06:30 PM

Title: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 22, 2018, 06:06:30 PM
I am planning on building 5 link suspension for the rear of my mid engine sandcar. Is there certain dimensions/formulas/lengths/angles etc. I need to follow? Fairly light car. Subaru motor/trans. 2 seater. Using 4130 tubing, what od/wall thickness needed. What size/design of heims? Weekend warrior at the sand dunes. Distance between pivot points? Lengths of links identical? Thanks.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 07:33:45 PM
how much travel are you shooting for? have you designed and built your wheel bearing carriers yet? are you planning on micro stubs or type 1 with 930 flanges? length of axle chosen?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 07:57:49 PM
Always with the questions!!!  :m All questions that must have an answer before a person can begin though. Brian,ds knows his stuff and will steer you right if you have accurate answers to his questions.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 22, 2018, 08:06:34 PM
Nothing built yet. I was just posting a new question here about this subject. This may sound silly, but I was wondering if anyone has tried using the stock Subaru CV shafts? I am planning on using a mt5 transaxle converted for the front diff only. Stock motor. Not looking for huge travel. Just guessing 12", but more if possible. Honestly, I know nothing about micro stubs or 930 flanges. Sorry for my ignorance.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 08:15:19 PM
Ds (also Brian) will school you on what will work best and most economical if that is a goal.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 09:21:29 PM
so that's an interesting question brianN. i know no one that has tried the stock cv's or the trans but read a lot on that trans. now even if the outer stock cv's are up to it i am not sure the axle shafts themselves are so that will be a try and see from myself. if the both sides of the cv are 6 ball cv's then they may work. most front wheel drives are tri pod inners........those won't make 30 mins if they even make it into the sand!  the tri pod cv's are meant to handle any real angle. a cv holds the same tq rating at basically all of it's angles but the higher the angle , the higher the heat. heat kills cv's almost as much as over angling them.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 09:30:25 PM
i have built quite a few 4 link, 5 link and 6 link rear ends. all basically on the same principal and for the record they are called multi link rear ends. your looking at designing and building a 5 link in particular so lets start there.  so you  will need to first design the wheel bearing carrier. no the stock spindle knuckle off the subaru will not work. i shouldn't say that w/o actually looking at one but even if it was built out of a strong enough material it is set up for ball joints and you need heims in double shear.  so first thing is first......you need to design and build the wheel bearing carriers and decide which wheel bearings your going to use. once you do this then you will be able to determine how to mount the trans and where to weld on your tabs around the output flanges of the trans as they need to match the pivot points of the wheel bearing carrier or as some call it the rear spindles.      there are 3 inboard rods and 2 lateral rods on a 5 link.   ALL pivot points must be the same on both ends of the rods. in other words they match the carriers at the frame. in all dimensions and this is very important. the easiest way is to make a jig off the  cv flange at the carrier including the pivot points of the rods then bolt that to the out put flange of the trans and weld your tabs on so they match. the lateral rods can be mounted a touch lower or higher but have to be equal at the frame as well. i would mount them as low as possible.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 09:46:52 PM
now as far as heim size with a lighter rail running a turbo suby and stock style suby trans.....chromolly 5/8" rod ends should be strong enough but if you pre fer over built then use 3/4".  you'll want to buy weld bungs for that chromolly tube you said you want to use to make the rods. i built a 3.8 litre engine 2 seat rear engine rail, 1800 lbs. i used 5/8" chromolly rod ends on the rear using 6061 aluminum rods on the inboard only. i tried them on the lateral and they folded so steel is a must on the forward rods. as far as wall thickness of the chromoly tube.....i would say .095 and find the weld bungs to match and probably 1.25" od but if you choose 3/4" heims then you'll probably have to go 1.5" od.

here is a link to the rods i have always used on the inboard rods.    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Swedged-6061-Aluminum-Radius-Rod-for-5-8-Inch-Heim,53184.html


so when you design the carriers, make sure that the heims pivot down the center of the cv. so if you draw a line through the mounting points of the heims as in left to right then that center point need to be parallel with the center line of the cv. the top pivot point should also run that same line but there is some grey area with that too. if you want SAI ( king pin inclination) or a camber arc then the top will need to pivot inside of that line but also match at the trans out put flange. remember that all points must pivot at the same time on the same plane or they will bind or create bump steer which is toe or out. also they must be the same to minimize axle plunge.

i can give you all the info you need but first thing is first, you need to decide what wheel bearing and stub axle your going to use then decide or design and build your carriers. after that everything will need to match those points. axle length will determine the rod length on the inboards. now for the forward link, i have always pre ferred a min of 30" rods. few inches longer works too as at this length running 24" wheel travel, the wheel only moves back 1.75" thru the stroke. so in other words your wheel base only grows 1.75" peak. at full droop, i like to mount the lateral or forwards rods where the axle is straight out from the trans. if you ran a rod through the diff straight out then that is what i call straight out. with the wheel in full droop and the axle straight out, then when the wheel base grows 1.75" you will push the axle back past that straight point helping to minimize axle plunge as the wheel strokes up and down. the less travel you use the less this effect is and less important this location is. 
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 09:51:36 PM
http://www.sandparts.com/5-Lug-Micro-Stub-Brake-Kit_p_83605.html

that is a micro stub axle kit. this particular kit doesn't come with the brake caliper mount so you need to order that seperately. you can use that to make the carriers. since it already is laser cut for the wheel bearing then you can weld this to the face of the carriers you design.  http://www.sandparts.com/LR-501480.html

it sounds a lot more difficult than it really is but still more difficult than trailing arms but out perform a trailing are as well.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 10:01:30 PM
Damn ds! You gave him a lot to digest there. :m Brian,I/we KNOW you will probably have a lot of questions about what ds just posted. PLEASE don't be shy. Ask all the questions you need to understand it. We've ALL been there and we are very happy to help you in this endeavor. Most of us have learned a lot here and some knew absolutely nothing about suspension design yet most of us are pretty well versed now. I just happened to have ignored the multi link topics since I favor a arm rear suspensions.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:02:44 PM
time for the picture parade yaaaaaaaaaaaaa  LMAO
(https://s15.postimg.cc/q83ek0lef/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q83ek0lef/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/o3j1ixrhj/DSCN0958.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o3j1ixrhj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/8ut456kyf/DSCN0959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/8ut456kyf/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/uh84m7bt3/DSCN0960.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/uh84m7bt3/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/9x3anqbhj/DSCN1927.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9x3anqbhj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/texy3og53/DSCN1929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/texy3og53/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/p5t81iklj/DSCN1930.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/p5t81iklj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/5b76fed3r/DSCN1931.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5b76fed3r/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 10:14:46 PM
oldies but goodies!. those are from when you were running u-j's. pics truly are worth a thousand words,yet it takes both to complete the project.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:19:34 PM
yes those are u joints but the same principals apply to cv's. if you use the brake caliper mounts that you can purchase and i posted a link to then cut the center hole ( pilot hole) 1/2" larger than the center hole in the caliper mount so you can weld the two together inside and out.  i pre fer 1/4" hot 50 allow so once you weld that caliper mount to it then you have a 1/2" thick center. if you choose not to then go with 3/8" thick flat plate. the pics are of a 6 link so you would just mount the upper rod as close to center as possible and also your shock mount need to me as close to center above the axle as possible. mounted behind it and you'll be trying to rotate the carrier to much when you compress your shock. 




(https://s15.postimg.cc/ky316pb6f/DSCN2734.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ky316pb6f/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4zubgl43r/DSCN2735.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4zubgl43r/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/9x3anqbhj/DSCN1927.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9x3anqbhj/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/bdjejvypz/DSCN1829.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/bdjejvypz/)



(https://s15.postimg.cc/h2zn3o9vr/DSCN0934.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h2zn3o9vr/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:23:28 PM
oldies but goodies!. those are from when you were running u-j's. pics truly are worth a thousand words,yet it takes both to complete the project.


yep! i have a ton more but unfortunately there on a lap top that i accidentally knocked off the table and shattered the screen. i need to run it to enemy and have the them recovered. i still pre fer u joints because of the ease and no cv grease!! lol but they will not handle the tq load like a cv at higher angles with out going larger which reduces angle etc etc.  that was a fun v6 rail for sure!   
(https://s15.postimg.cc/eyfa30g3b/DSCN2969.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/eyfa30g3b/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:25:03 PM
Damn ds! You gave him a lot to digest there. :m Brian,I/we KNOW you will probably have a lot of questions about what ds just posted. PLEASE don't be shy. Ask all the questions you need to understand it. We've ALL been there and we are very happy to help you in this endeavor. Most of us have learned a lot here and some knew absolutely nothing about suspension design yet most of us are pretty well versed now. I just happened to have ignored the multi link topics since I favor a arm rear suspensions.

 ;D ;D he asked  rofl brianN ask all the questions you need as fabr stated. were here to help! no such thing as a stupid question as long as it isn't why aren't utv's better than rails  LMAO
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:31:19 PM

i forgot about this pic  LMAO LMAO

(https://s15.postimg.cc/wczib9anb/aka3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wczib9anb/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 22, 2018, 10:36:40 PM
I can't believe you actually understood what I was asking!! Believe it or not, I actually understand most of your info, after reading it once. Thanks. I will research the micro stubs more. I will not be aiming for 24" of travel, because I need to save money by using my Fox reservoir shocks. (Forget stroke length at the moment). I also need to know how to buy/build axles to mate to the Subaru mt5 transaxle, if the stock axles won't handle it. It was just a hope to keep things simple. I will get better pics of my project tomorrow. It is refreshing to learn from people with an open mind. All my stuff is hand made, so usually "goofy" . compared to "factory built"! Thanks to anyone with advise, and I hope to share info after I learn more myself. I don't see any links to pics that people are sending. Except for the sand parts and stubs.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:44:35 PM
the pics should just be there. here is a link to a video of mine. the purpose of the video isn't important but you can see pics of the carriers i built using the micro stubs and caliper mounts i posted links to. made them out of hot 50 steel.

http://youtu.be/UkB1f1dKPi8



here is a link to a build thread but this page has pictures of those carriers. now this is an a arm rear end but basics still apply.

https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5336.180

Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 10:48:02 PM
I can't believe you actually understood what I was asking!! Believe it or not, I actually understand most of your info, after reading it once. Thanks. I will research the micro stubs more. I will not be aiming for 24" of travel, because I need to save money by using my Fox reservoir shocks. (Forget stroke length at the moment). I also need to know how to buy/build axles to mate to the Subaru mt5 transaxle, if the stock axles won't handle it. It was just a hope to keep things simple. I will get better pics of my project tomorrow. It is refreshing to learn from people with an open mind. All my stuff is hand made, so usually "goofy" . compared to "factory built"! Thanks to anyone with advise, and I hope to share info after I learn more myself. I don't see any links to pics that people are sending. Except for the sand parts and stubs.

glad you understood and they make 930 flanges for that suby trans. so just get there flanges and go to 930 cv's. you want the high angle ones with over the boot flanges. this will simplify the work and i completely get the thought of stock axle assemblies. again i don't know if there 6 ball cv's on each end of the stock axle so i cannot say but i can say if there a tri pod on the inners then they will not work at all. if they are equal cv's on both ends then why not? if travel isn't important then then i would give it a try but look to see what years and models used the same spline count on stub axles so you can buy the longest axles suby offered. up to 28" long that is. if you go that route and suby used a 3 bolt wheel bearing then you'll need to make carriers to match that but as you know it's all doable! keep us posted and post pics.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 10:58:03 PM
Damn ds! You gave him a lot to digest there. :m Brian,I/we KNOW you will probably have a lot of questions about what ds just posted. PLEASE don't be shy. Ask all the questions you need to understand it. We've ALL been there and we are very happy to help you in this endeavor. Most of us have learned a lot here and some knew absolutely nothing about suspension design yet most of us are pretty well versed now. I just happened to have ignored the multi link topics since I favor a arm rear suspensions.

 ;D ;D he asked  rofl brianN ask all the questions you need as fabr stated. were here to help! no such thing as a stupid question as long as it isn't why aren't utv's better than rails  LMAO
Hey now! I've passed into the dark side ya know......................... well ,at least I still have the real buggies also.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2018, 11:07:47 PM
I can't believe you actually understood what I was asking!! Believe it or not, I actually understand most of your info, after reading it once. Thanks. I will research the micro stubs more. I will not be aiming for 24" of travel, because I need to save money by using my Fox reservoir shocks. (Forget stroke length at the moment). I also need to know how to buy/build axles to mate to the Subaru mt5 transaxle, if the stock axles won't handle it. It was just a hope to keep things simple. I will get better pics of my project tomorrow. It is refreshing to learn from people with an open mind. All my stuff is hand made, so usually "goofy" . compared to "factory built"! Thanks to anyone with advise, and I hope to share info after I learn more myself. I don't see any links to pics that people are sending. Except for the sand parts and stubs.
YES!!!! You are going to fit right in here!!!
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2018, 11:51:57 PM
Damn ds! You gave him a lot to digest there. :m Brian,I/we KNOW you will probably have a lot of questions about what ds just posted. PLEASE don't be shy. Ask all the questions you need to understand it. We've ALL been there and we are very happy to help you in this endeavor. Most of us have learned a lot here and some knew absolutely nothing about suspension design yet most of us are pretty well versed now. I just happened to have ignored the multi link topics since I favor a arm rear suspensions.

 ;D ;D he asked  rofl brianN ask all the questions you need as fabr stated. were here to help! no such thing as a stupid question as long as it isn't why aren't utv's better than rails  LMAO
Hey now! I've passed into the dark side ya know......................... well ,at least I still have the real buggies also.

 LMAO
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 23, 2018, 09:51:49 AM
you should be able to see the pics i posted. they aren't links they are attached.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 23, 2018, 06:05:59 PM
Yes, the pics are here. I haven't had time to watch vids or look at parts yet, but will shortly. Here are a few pics of the original car I bought, (purple) and things I have built. I barrel rolled and flipped it at high speed, when it was purple, because a spindle came apart, then the steering gear broke after that. That was when I unloaded it at my house, and cut the car apart before even going in the house. That way, I had to fix it! I have a WIDE cage now.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/boao8612f/0603152136.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/boao8612f/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/hp8d5eg0n/IMG_20170523_205221967.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hp8d5eg0n/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/ugmjbwxif/IMG_20170523_205325914.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ugmjbwxif/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/6pn5tshvr/IMG_20170528_152434084.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6pn5tshvr/)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/4xu6yvj3b/IMG_20171007_124434180.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4xu6yvj3b/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 23, 2018, 06:15:01 PM
Before.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/phkib7icx/1217140943.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/phkib7icx/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 23, 2018, 07:17:03 PM
well looks a lot better than the origanal! so did you design and build the a arm front end? a arms look strong enough. no offesne on the spindles but they look a little weak as they look like link pin spindles. if they work and have been solid for you then they are strong enough! i see its a swing axle, so are you going to swap to an irs trans?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 23, 2018, 09:28:14 PM
Yes, I made the entire front of the car, and suspension. I am surprised that the spindles look weak. They are very heavy duty. I will get  close up pics and post. The shafts are actually 4340 annealed material, full diameter entire length, gusseted through the 1/4" thick body. I built and installed bronze hubs into those wheels, to use large diameter bearings.No offense taken. I did put the tie rod mounts at a wrong angle, though. I couldn't fix, though, because they are actually fitted through the entire body, which attaches to the shaft, also. I already had about a zillion hours in them, so still use them. Yes, irs is the whole purpose of the multi link suspension. But I have the challenge of fitting axles to the Subaru trans.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 23, 2018, 11:15:54 PM
Nice work. Where do you ride at? I see you're from Oklahoma so I assume Little Sahara?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 23, 2018, 11:37:53 PM
Yes, Little Sahara. Not near as big as it was when I was a youngster, and 10 times as many people!  Mostly side x sides. Still fun, but the sand gets destroyed and rough. That probably isn't a problem at places like Glamis, but LS is only a couple of hours away.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 23, 2018, 11:45:30 PM
We have a couple places there. I try to avoid any and all weekends or holidays. Much more fun when we have it nearly all to ourselves. You might give a heads up when you go next time.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:57:53 AM
Yes, I made the entire front of the car, and suspension. I am surprised that the spindles look weak. They are very heavy duty. I will get  close up pics and post. The shafts are actually 4340 annealed material, full diameter entire length, gusseted through the 1/4" thick body. I built and installed bronze hubs into those wheels, to use large diameter bearings.No offense taken. I did put the tie rod mounts at a wrong angle, though. I couldn't fix, though, because they are actually fitted through the entire body, which attaches to the shaft, also. I already had about a zillion hours in them, so still use them. Yes, irs is the whole purpose of the multi link suspension. But I have the challenge of fitting axles to the Subaru trans.

i guess i should've said the spindle stubs look weak as they appear to be link pin and but welded. 4340 annealed, passed through and gusseted def is stronger than the stock mild steel hardened spindle stubs some places use. i run combo link myself as i did bend a link pin spindle once years ago. as a result i went to 4130 link pin spindle stubs and never had an issue again. i am now using 4130 combo link for the bigger dia stub and larger bearings just to be safe.

if you got the tie rod mounts in the wrong location can you move the rack?   i have heard some real good info on the subaru trans so this conversion will be interesting to see unfold! i too ride at LS a couple times a year. we go earlier in the week (more vacant) and leave sat morning as to avoid all the little kids and nut jobs. i am a 7.5 hr drive north of the dunes so cannot make it a weekend trip lol  :D
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 09:05:22 AM
there will be a dts group run oct 21 thru 27 ....you should stop by cowboy and introduce yourself and show the rail off.  :)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 24, 2018, 05:43:06 PM
If I can dream hard enough, I will have the car done(again) by then. I do not show off, because I have seen the stuff people have nowadays. Mine is very low budget!! I looked up the parts to convert Subaru trans to 930 CV. Subarugears sells the flanges for the trans, I think, and, if I read it right, I can use the 930 to type 1 stub axles, since I already have the hubs/breaks from my swingaxle. Hopefully.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 24, 2018, 05:51:08 PM
My electric is out right now, from a storm, but here is a little better pic of a spindle.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/e7spjcbap/IMG_20180624_184620504.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e7spjcbap/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 24, 2018, 05:55:29 PM
Come on down this fall and join the group!!
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
i like the double plating around the bolt holes.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:07:57 PM
oh and believe me.....know one shows off in our group. we ride then we get stuffed, wait for it to digest and repeat lol   watch out for fabr when he leads the group on the night runs  LMAO
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 24, 2018, 08:34:19 PM
 LOL!!!!!! Nothing to see there. I'm a daylight person.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 24, 2018, 08:39:19 PM
Come to think of it,I don't believe I've ever led any runs. More fun to follow and watch for me.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:51:59 PM
LOL!!!!!! Nothing to see there. I'm a daylight person.


 LMAO LMAO ;D
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:52:20 PM
Come to think of it,I don't believe I've ever led any runs. More fun to follow and watch for me.

time to change that  ;) ;D
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2018, 08:54:23 PM
here's a shot before i converted mine to a arm rear end. i did so at the time i converted from turbo hayabusa bike engine to ford 2.3 4 cyl.


(https://s15.postimg.cc/o4zvf7g13/10390208_4319750049265_5048096162719463005_n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/o4zvf7g13/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 26, 2018, 10:39:52 AM
I think there is a change of plans for using the Subaru transmission. I posted this in my other subject, also. Subistuff says it will basically be 1tire drive in the sand. He even suggested to not stop, unless on top of a hill, because you will get stuck! About $4000.00 to have my trans converted to 4:86 R.P. and limited slip. I guess I will have to buy an adapter and maybe a VW bus transaxle. Bummer. Any other options from experience?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 26, 2018, 12:41:19 PM
a mendi E box is $5500 new and a proven design. just saying.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 26, 2018, 12:43:57 PM
just throwing this out there....i know someone with a 094 vw trans. has a super diff and side shifter adaptor to connect to stock shifter location. hes asking $1k but will deal. the 094 has the strongest reverse gear. rear engine only btw
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 26, 2018, 01:59:54 PM
just throwing this out there....i know someone with a 094 vw trans. has a super diff and side shifter adaptor to connect to stock shifter location. hes asking $1k but will deal. the 094 has the strongest reverse gear. rear engine only btw
Stock internals except for super diff? 4 spiders?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 26, 2018, 03:08:08 PM
Ok. But I plan on keeping it a mid engine. I will ask if spiders can be added to the Subaru.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: Enemy on June 26, 2018, 03:28:53 PM
I think there is a change of plans for using the Subaru transmission. I posted this in my other subject, also. Subistuff says it will basically be 1tire drive in the sand. He even suggested to not stop, unless on top of a hill, because you will get stuck! About $4000.00 to have my trans converted to 4:86 R.P. and limited slip. I guess I will have to buy an adapter and maybe a VW bus transaxle. Bummer. Any other options from experience?

Cannot give any advice on a transmission to use, but many of us in the sand are running a one-wheel-wonder with great success. Trails, dunes, hardpack, mine will always light both wheels up unless in a slow severe cornering situation on hardpack. Add turn brakes and the open dif works just fine. Now, I am not a very heavy car and that may help to contribute as well as how tight the spider gears are set up.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 26, 2018, 03:45:10 PM
I have always wondered how a VW transaxle could spin both tires in the sand. I have never seen one throwing only one "rooster tail".
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 27, 2018, 12:01:08 PM
I am ready to order 930 cv's, bearing carriers, and Type1 to 930 stub axles. To get the fabrication started. No insult intended to anyone out there, but I am not a fan of Empi. But I also like dealing with Appletree. Do you guys have a preference? Once again, I will not have huge horsepower or 24" of wheel travel. I may wait to order axles, unless you think the longest possible is best.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 27, 2018, 09:37:28 PM
never been a fan of empi either but as cheap as they are and for what your doing i would give them a try just buy the high angle ones and with chromoly cages if offered. i personally would go straight to 28" axles but thats just me.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 28, 2018, 07:24:53 AM
Longest axle will be best from a cv angle standpoint for sure.  Everyone will have differing opinions on what cv's to use. Empi's would probably be Ok for you but investigate the cost difference between them and GKN 's. Just one of probably hundreds of places that offer them.  https://www.kartek.com/parts/gkn-stock-german-porsche-930-cv-joint-for-28-spline-axles-with-stock-cage.html
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 28, 2018, 12:45:03 PM
in the short time i have ran cv's i have always been an advocate of rcv cv's.....until i found how first hand how there cv's do not operate ad advertised. they advertise 28*......cannot get them past 24*, on plungin axles.  fabr is correct the gkn's would be preferrable . 
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 28, 2018, 04:42:39 PM
Thanks. Those comments actually just reinforce my opinions.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 28, 2018, 09:32:09 PM
wow i really should've proof read that post lol my grammar was terrible!  so i can tell you this ....... i know 2 people that have ran the empi high angle cv's. 1 in a stroker vw and the 2nd with a 3.8 series I v6 engine. both have my a arm front end kit on them. the v6 runs a 5.14 r&p, he ran (i think) 1650 paddles and the stroker aircooled 1450's, cv's on both are going strong still. the v6 had one outer hosuing crack but then again i did to on my rcv performance non plunge chromolly 930 cv's. the empi's will max out at 27* even though they advertise them at 28*. the rcv plunging 930 max's out at 24* and are advertised as 28*. dunebound69 figured out they aren't machining the outer housing correctly for high angle clearence to the star and cage. he buffed the inside of the hosuing a bit and we got them operating at 28*. the customer should not have to do that so even with there lifetime warranty ( they do stand behind them) i don't feel there worth the $125 each. gkn are better than the chicky china empi's but i have seen the empi's take a beating  at Ls oklahoma.    on another note......if they can put 4 spider gears in the suby diff, it will still be classified as a 1 wheel wonder but it will still hook up like a limited slip for the most part. this i can state for sure.  up until my current rail, i have always ran u joints. i still believe in them for a few reasons but decided to try cv's again. i hate cv grease more than anti freeze but the non plunge ran and lasted at 35* max for 3 years. now operate at 30* max on 28" axles and i get 23.5" wheel travel with 4" ground clearence at full bump. thats an a arm rear end but same applies to a 5 link or 6 link rear end. this is why i say just go 28" long axles now and you'll have the room to grow in the future IF you ever decide you need more.  :)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 29, 2018, 12:50:03 PM
Thanks for the update. I am deciding today. Subistuff doesn't know of any way to add spiders. I ordered the shafts and drive flanges for now, to get the fab started. Subarugears has a video on YouTube showing how to change r&p and diff. Maybe in time, I will try to save sending a trans to California and the labor, and do it myself. And I guess I missed your bad grammar. I am an Okie, though!
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 29, 2018, 03:34:37 PM
so they don`t offer a super diff for the suby? they did atleast understand what you were asking for by using 4 spider gears??
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on June 29, 2018, 05:02:57 PM
Well, I think he understood. I explained my situation over several calls and emails. He never offered any other options. I would hope to skip the R&P, because they are $1300.00. The LS diff was about $1085.00. Maybe I will learn more as time passes.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 29, 2018, 06:03:36 PM
If you are worried about just one tire spinning you could always do what I think fast may have been hinting at. Weld the spiders to the side gears. Worked in the day anyway. Use a high nickle rod and do a bit of preheating first.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on June 29, 2018, 06:04:59 PM
just throwing this out there....i know someone with a 094 vw trans. has a super diff and side shifter adaptor to connect to stock shifter location. hes asking $1k but will deal. the 094 has the strongest reverse gear. rear engine only btw
Stock internals except for super diff? 4 spiders?
^^^^^^?????? I might be interested.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on June 30, 2018, 09:02:25 PM
i didnt think that would be something your interested in with a fortin aut trans in your desert runner.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on July 01, 2018, 12:41:23 AM
Think blue buggy with a much stouter reverse. Yes I might be interested.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 01, 2018, 09:32:17 AM
Think blue buggy with a much stouter reverse. Yes I might be interested.

well i can give you his #, deano has it and sold his rail . the gears are stock but it does have a super diff  ( transman pulled it apart and looked) , also he has the shifter conversion to attach to the stock location as a standard vw rear engine shifter. now your not mid engine but the linkage is on the side rather than tail so you may be able to modify the linkage for use as a mid.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 01, 2018, 08:40:24 PM
Got a couple of motor mounts and transmission mounts built and tacked in. Shortened the wheelbase by 9 inches. Hope I am not sorry for that!
(https://s22.postimg.cc/m4qafz7st/IMG_20180701_204927600.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m4qafz7st/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/mhhom6d7x/IMG_20180701_204939540.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/mhhom6d7x/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 02, 2018, 06:01:54 PM
is that trans in stock for still as a awd? how long is it over all? from the face of the bellhousing to the center of the flange....what is that distance?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 02, 2018, 08:10:40 PM
Right now it is locked for rear wheel drive. I will be changing it to "front" wheel drive. The rear housing will be gone. No drive shaft. I will get measurements tomorrow morning. I work nights. Explain what you mean by "center of flange".
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 02, 2018, 08:13:28 PM
Axle center?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on July 02, 2018, 08:55:38 PM
Axle center?
yes.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 03, 2018, 06:41:44 AM
yes, from the front edge of the bell housing to the center of the drive flange that your 930 cv will bolt to.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 03, 2018, 12:16:51 PM
OAL of mt5: 31-1/2", w/o tail housing: 26", face to flange center: 6-1/2".
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 03, 2018, 03:26:19 PM
6.5".....WOW !!!! that is close no wonder you shortened your wheel base. do you still have that 091 there to compare over all length and flange distance to bell housing? it looks like the out put flanges are lower in the case compared to the 091.....is that true?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 03, 2018, 04:11:00 PM
Yes, they are lower than a VW. I think that is the reason you can't simple flip the r & p to use as a rear engine. They are not on center. Subarugears makes a "reversed" r & p, though. I do not have a 091. I was using a Type1 bug trans. (I don't think that is a 091) It measures about 7-1/2". Since I am starting from scratch on my rear suspension, I moved everything forward to shorten wheelbase. I would also like to move the fuel away from the driver and passenger. When I crashed mine and landed upside down, I had fuel running out right behind me, and the motor was still running. I had a broken/dislocated wrist and couldn't pull my seatbelt lever. Sucked.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 03, 2018, 05:00:35 PM
If anyone reading this subject is interested, I do have my motor/transaxle for sale, I guess. 2275/type1 trans. I do not have a clue what any of it is worth. If there is a "for sale" section on here, I have a bunch of stuff I need to sell.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fastcorvairs on July 04, 2018, 06:06:16 AM
https://dtsfab.com/index.php?board=21.0

Here's the buy and sell form.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2018, 07:05:56 AM
If anyone reading this subject is interested, I do have my motor/transaxle for sale, I guess. 2275/type1 trans. I do not have a clue what any of it is worth. If there is a "for sale" section on here, I have a bunch of stuff I need to sell.
                                      i see fast posted a link to the for sale section for you. also you should list it in your local craigslist ads since it an aircooled engine and prob pretty popular down around the dunes. i have no idea what either is worth but still a lot of air cooled people out there. not just in sand rails either.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 07, 2018, 09:00:40 PM
Got a couple more motor mounts tacked in, and my fwd conversion hub fabricated and welded. Expecting suspension parts this week.
(https://s22.postimg.cc/ntifendjh/IMG_20180707_211952337.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ntifendjh/)

(https://s22.postimg.cc/loy2ditwd/IMG_20180707_212009444.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/loy2ditwd/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 08, 2018, 07:36:31 AM
moving along pretty fast!     have you built the carriers for the wheel bearings yet?
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 08, 2018, 05:33:06 PM
No. I should have parts on Monday. Gotta get heims ordered and start staring (you being a fabber probably know what I mean) at the car, and deciding on how I want the end to look like. Did you mention before that I could use aluminum rods for (forgot term) links from carriers to frame at the trans? (Not the 2 forward pushing links).
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 08, 2018, 06:05:52 PM
yes on the swedged 6061 aluminum radius rods. i posted that speedway motor link early on. there like $10 from them. i get the carrier design study session, make it a sober one lol   not sure which stubs you decided on but if micro stub kit i have 6 blank carriers still.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 08, 2018, 07:18:14 PM
I ordered the type1 to 930 so I can use my brakes are hubs. And ordered the aluminum carriers for fabrication of my "birdcages". Sorry, I come from a Sprint car background! I hope I understand what I am doing. I will order the radius rods when I figure the lengths, and build my own 4130 rods for the "pushers". Don't worry, I will get my terminalogy straight! If I forget to say it-- Thanks to all for advice and opinions.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 08, 2018, 07:43:10 PM
i call them wheel bearing carriers but birdcages works too. i have always run mild steel forward rods but chromolly will be very strong. anytime on the advice and we're all full opinions lol
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 08, 2018, 07:45:18 PM
if you build aluminum carriers that you make them more than stout as they take a lot more load than a sprint car. as in many diff directions and a pounding from all the bumps in offroad.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on July 08, 2018, 08:40:23 PM
if you build aluminum carriers that you make them more than stout as they take a lot more load than a sprint car. as in many diff directions and a pounding from all the bumps in offroad.
^^^^^^ YUP
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: Carlriddle on July 09, 2018, 06:08:47 AM
I take it he plans to use the alum bearing bolt in units for type one stubs.

Sounds like you got a good plan, steady preplanning will keep ya from collecting many unusable parts.  Another leason I learned hard way.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 09, 2018, 07:05:09 AM
here are a set i used to build. you could make these out of the steel type 1 carriers but need to make the heim locations in double shear.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 09, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
another angle
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 09, 2018, 07:32:10 AM
https://www.appletreeauto.com/AXLE-BEARING-HOUSING-17-2707-0/
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 14, 2018, 06:51:59 PM
I ordered axles way too long. Did I read on here to measure axles: with axles straight, level with ground, measure from back edges of both cv's, then add 1/2"? Also, what is the width of your cars from outside edges of paddle tires?
(https://s33.postimg.cc/e1q9h5tx7/IMG_20180714_194934682.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e1q9h5tx7/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fastcorvairs on July 14, 2018, 07:20:34 PM
Brian

The width of your car should be maintained to what the door opening in your car trailer is.  If your opening is 90 inches then you want to be able to drive your car in so keep the width at say 86/88 with paddles on.  That way you don't spend a lot of time changing tires going to and from the dunes.
I don't know where you got the infore on the axle measuring but it's way off.  From where you are at in the build you need to determine how wide you want the car, then you need to find your true travel of the suspension before you can determine the axle length.  You pretty much need the suspension all hooked up to the car so you can then cycle it up and down to get the axle length.  What you will want is at full droop the axle will have about a quarter of and inch play back and forth. Then at the middle of the travel the same and then at the top the same.  Some people like to start at the mid way point and work up and then down.  This masument will come from the bottom of the cv cup on the wheel to the bottom of the cup on the transaxle.  use and old broom handle and cut and trim as needed then when you get where you want to be then mausere what you have and order up a new set or just bring me the long ones and I'll cut them down to fit. 
Brian if you ever need help or want to talk about it just ring me up 316-655-3162 Ask for Glenn.

I need to add that all this this time you need to keep the angle of the axle at what the cv manufacture wants the cv's to be maxed out at. 
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on July 14, 2018, 07:50:53 PM
Brian

The width of your car should be maintained to what the door opening in your car trailer is.or as wide as the front tires.  If your opening is 90 inches then you want to be able to drive your car in so keep the width at say 86/88 with paddles on.  That way you don't spend a lot of time changing tires going to and from the dunes. Many people do not but Fast's advice on that is very,very good advice from a convenience standpoint, if convenience is at all important to you ,follow it.  ;) ;)
I don't know where you got the infore on the axle measuring but it's way off.  From where you are at in the build you need to determine how wide you want the car, then you need to find your true travel of the suspension which is limited by the cv max anglebefore you can determine the axle length.  You pretty much need the suspension all hooked up to the car so you can then cycle it up and down to get the axle length.  Yup!What you will want is at full droop the axle will have about a quarter of and inch play back and forth. Then at the middle of the travel the same and then at the top the same.  Some people like to start at the mid way point and work up and then down.  That is a goal that may not be attainable due to many factors but there needs to be at the very least 1/8 inch axle end play throughout full suspension travel.You can take into account cv plunge when doing this also .It would be best if the cv plunge is limited but many times full plunge will be needed. This masument will come from the bottom of the cv cup on the wheel to the bottom of the cup on the transaxle.  use and old broom handle and cut and trim as needed then when you get where you want to be then mausere what you have and order up a new set or just bring me the long ones and I'll cut them down to fit.  Now that's an offer that shouldn't be left unused!!
Brian if you ever need help or want to talk about it just ring me up 316-655-3162 Ask for Glenn.

I need to add that all this this time you need to keep the angle of the axle at what the cv manufacture wants the cv's to be maxed out at.


 Good info for Brian right there. DS has been a big ,big help as well. One thing about DTS is there are many here that truly know what they know for sure.

Sorry to have hacked up your post fast but it was just easier.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: fabr on July 14, 2018, 08:02:54 PM
I ordered axles way too long. Did I read on here to measure axles: with axles straight, level with ground, measure from back edges of both cv's, then add 1/2"? Also, what is the width of your cars from outside edges of paddle tires?
(https://s33.postimg.cc/e1q9h5tx7/IMG_20180714_194934682.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e1q9h5tx7/)
I have 2 @ 64" (flippin sxs's  5:),1 @ 90(IIFC) and 1 @ 98ish/paddles-96 with dirt tires. These numbers aren't exact but close enough.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 14, 2018, 09:13:25 PM
fast ( glenn) has provided the right info on axle length. with a 5 or 6 link i have measure from cv flange face ( where cv mounts to) to the same surface on the otherside and added 1/2" to 1" depending on cv's. that has alway gotten myself very close and the rest can be adjusted through the links. now with that being said i also always go 28" for max width. on this last conversion i do have to change tires and it is a paint but not the end of the world. 
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 14, 2018, 09:23:23 PM
i should meantion last time i measured the axles that way i wound up with rods 3/8" short but 3/8" is a same amount to adjust out with those 6061 sweded rods. or was for myaself.
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: BrianN on July 15, 2018, 07:03:23 PM
OK. I will continue building the suspension, and measure for axles next. My axles will be shorter, I think, because I am using stub axles at the bearing carriers to convert from type 1 to 930. This saved me a bunch of money, because I already had hubs and brakes that I like. I am fitting tubes to locate the links, now. Gonna be trial and error for a while, but that is how I work!! Darn, it is hot. Luckily, I still have my brothers tube bender. He is what a consider a real fabricator. He has built stuff, including race cars and exhaust (a special art in my opinion), that will blow your mind. Did I mention it is hot here? Looks like my width will be 86". I use an aluminum flat bed trailer. Looks like I will widen my front end, but that is in the future.
(https://s33.postimg.cc/ikq3jheq3/IMG_20180715_195911643.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ikq3jheq3/)
Title: Re: 5 link rear sandcar suspension
Post by: dsrace on July 15, 2018, 09:02:38 PM
type on stubs do add width as they are longer than micro stubs.