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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" Member Project Logs => Topic started by: dsrace on December 03, 2016, 11:50:32 PM

Title: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 03, 2016, 11:50:32 PM
well here you go glenn, not much to see yet just stripping it down so i can start cutting out the sections for conversion to fit the new mid engine megasand and turbo 2.3 ford engine.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 04, 2016, 04:42:41 AM
Quote well here you go glenn, not much to see yet just stripping it down so i can start cutting out the sections for conversion to fit the new mid engine megasand and turbo 2.3 ford engine.Quote

You are so going to love the boost  2:.  Even with it going to be a mid engine you mite move some weight up front.

Note: to self, start planing the twin turbo six cyl subi.   gg:
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 08:23:08 AM
you are right i will love the boost on the 2.3, enemy loves it in his ranger lol
   i have a megasand 3 speed mid engine trans. every trans shop i have talked to ....wright, marks sands trans, rancho and weddle all say 300 ft lbs tq trans. that's the megasand in general not the 3 speed specifically. they all called it a bastard trans  rofl so anyway i know the terrain in LS is diff than st a but scottsmith's bud and pretty much whole group he rides with running the turno 2.3 but his bud BO in particualar is i thinnk 365 to 400 hp at wheel running an old megasand with the weakest case they made and has had no issues for years now. so here's the plan as of right now.......... i am going to build the motor safe to 500 hp and have it balanced to 9000 rpm. i am using forged cp flat top pistons to raise comp from stock 8-1 to 9-1 for better turbo response as well as throttle. sportsman forged rod as well. now one of the easiest and fastest power mods on the 88 thunder chicken motor is to install the ranger roller cam along with its roller rockers and followers. this is a huge wake up for the stock engine. stock turbo cam is a slider cam and a slightly higher valve lift but the ranger roller ( RR cam) does a better job. neither cam have near enough. duration on the exh side and enemy brought another cam to my attention i will be purchasing. it is called the hot pinto cam. i was looking at an esslinger cam. the hot pinto cam is rated for 2000 to 6000 rpm and has a 4.20 lift vs the 3.90 RR cam lift but has longer duration on the exh side for a turbo. stock RR cam drops at 5500 rpm but enemy can remark from personal experience on this one lol  i have taken the time and did a very very mild port job on the head. just cleaned up all the slag and scale in the runners and comb chamber basically but went to town on the valve bowl area.

my point in all this is since i will have to cap the motor at 400 hp i want that power as low in the rpm band as possible so i am selecting the parts for quickest spool. i am looking at the borgwarner efr 6258 turbo for quickest spool up. if i can't build the 500 hp i wanted then i will shoot for 400 as soon as poss  rofl now the 3 speed has stronger gears than the 4 speeds do. fast you know what i'm talking about.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 08:36:07 AM
for the rear end i will be fabbing an a-arm rear. i plan ( at this time) to lay my shock line up inboard rather than forward.  so any pointers on the a-arm rear end fabr?? or any one else
i don't have any pics but i have spent some time constructing a custom upper intake for the engine with the special adaptor doug hiem made for me......damn fine work on that doug! and i will be going e85 as well so starting with 130 lb injs and i have a crank trigger conversion so no stock dist on this motor either all micro squirt pimp system and enemy has the ls1 coil ignition figured out along with flex fuel sensor and custom ccv breather box for higher boost....so will be doing that as well for sequential fire as well as injection. nice work enemy!!!!! pics to come
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 08:43:34 AM
3 speed mid.....note specail thanks to lancew for picking this up for me!!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 08:53:06 AM
for those that understand this....
stock cam 2.3 TURBO
Valve Lift (Intake / Exhaust) .354 / .353 .050" Duration (Intake / Exhaust) 188 / 188 Lobe Separation Angle 120 / 104 2k to 5k rpm

stock ranger roller cam 2.3 1987/90
Valve Lift (Intake / Exhaust) .390 / .390 .050" Duration (Intake / Exhaust) 187 / 190 Lobe Separation Angle 108 / 116 2k to 5k rpm

hot pinto has a .426" int  with 262* duration and .418" exh lift 258* duration 114* lobe seperation. 2k to 6k rpm but many report pulls well to 6500 rpm.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 12:30:42 PM
got to love plasma cutters  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on December 04, 2016, 04:05:34 PM
My dad has a 2300 NA motor that we are swapping for my old subaru. That thing runs great. Should be a fun ride with the new setup. How is the trans gearing setup? I know I wish I had a 5th gear so having 3 would be tough for me. Is it just set up for duning with a low top speed?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 04:09:53 PM
comparable to the built 091 that had a 4.57 r&p running 33 blaster paddles i had but they drop 1st and bring 2  3rd  4th down lower 4.43 r&p then they make the gears wider. 2nd 3rd will be an inline shift with this one. i never used 4th at ls in my 3.8 v6 rail. i will be running the stu 1300 on this one as well. they are heavier than the suby's but will take a lot of abuse and boost.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 05:44:35 PM
Gotta love  a man with a plan!. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 05:52:17 PM
you are right i will love the boost on the 2.3, enemy loves it in his ranger lol
   i have a megasand 3 speed mid engine trans. every trans shop i have talked to ....wright, marks sands trans, rancho and weddle all say 300 ft lbs tq trans. that's the megasand in general not the 3 speed specifically. they all called it a bastard trans  rofl so anyway i know the terrain in LS is diff than st a but scottsmith's bud and pretty much whole group he rides with running the turno 2.3 but his bud BO in particualar is i thinnk 365 to 400 hp at wheel running an old megasand with the weakest case they made and has had no issues for years now. so here's the plan as of right now.......... i am going to build the motor safe to 500 hp and have it balanced to 9000 rpm. i am using forged cp flat top pistons to raise comp from stock 8-1 to 9-1 for better turbo response as well as throttle. sportsman forged rod as well. now one of the easiest and fastest power mods on the 88 thunder chicken motor is to install the ranger roller cam along with its roller rockers and followers. this is a huge wake up for the stock engine. stock turbo cam is a slider cam and a slightly higher valve lift but the ranger roller ( RR cam) does a better job. neither cam have near enough. duration on the exh side and enemy brought another cam to my attention i will be purchasing. it is called the hot pinto cam. i was looking at an esslinger cam. the hot pinto cam is rated for 2000 to 6000 rpm and has a 4.20 lift vs the 3.90 RR cam lift but has longer duration on the exh side for a turbo. stock RR cam drops at 5500 rpm but enemy can remark from personal experience on this one lol  i have taken the time and did a very very mild port job on the head. just cleaned up all the slag and scale in the runners and comb chamber basically but went to town on the valve bowl area.

my point in all this is since i will have to cap the motor at 400 hp i want that power as low in the rpm band as possible so i am selecting the parts for quickest spool. i am looking at the borgwarner efr 6258 turbo for quickest spool up. if i can't build the 500 hp i wanted then i will shoot for 400 as soon as poss  rofl now the 3 speed has stronger gears than the 4 speeds do. fast you know what i'm talking about.
You do realize that all inline engines cranks are naturally balanced? All that needs to be balanced is total piston weights and rod big/small end.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 05:56:54 PM
for the rear end i will be fabbing an a-arm rear. i plan ( at this time) to lay my shock line up inboard rather than forward.  so any pointers on the a-arm rear end fabr?? or any one else
i don't have any pics but i have spent some time constructing a custom upper intake for the engine with the special adaptor doug hiem made for me......damn fine work on that doug! and i will be going e85 as well so starting with 130 lb injs and i have a crank trigger conversion so no stock dist on this motor either all micro squirt pimp system and enemy has the ls1 coil ignition figured out along with flex fuel sensor and custom ccv breather box for higher boost....so will be doing that as well for sequential fire as well as injection. nice work enemy!!!!! pics to come
If I understand your terminology correctly,yes.So far,I'm tickled pink with desert cars setup.Need to get it out where I can open it up.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:07:20 PM
You do realize that all inline engines cranks are naturally balanced? All that needs to be balanced is total piston weights and rod big/small end.

i did not realize that so thanks for the info. this engine and these do not have harmonic balancers but later models did get them. not sure what year. planned on the rods and pistons. i figured i would have the crank with the flywheel balanced but maybe just the flywheel now.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:08:39 PM
If I understand your terminology correctly,yes.So far,I'm tickled pink with desert cars setup.Need to get it out where I can open it up.

laying the shock inline with the axle as in from wheel to center of frame rather than forward like it was as in from wheel to back of seat. i have enough room just need to see how it will lay out.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:17:11 PM
so here are some pics of the head. stock spare head first then the head i ported/polished so you can kind of see what i did. i know pics aren't the same as in person but..... now i didn't take any real material off the short side in the intake or exh runners just cleaned all the slag and polished the wall as best as i could. not a lot of material in those spots and read many posts that they can crack easy if you take much. i did go to town in the bowl area and the slag was bad in there. cleaned and took a little out of the cc as well. funny thing is it looks a lot smoother in person but the camera really picks up the marks. so fabbr you've done a few heads so good or bad ...thoughts?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:20:46 PM
 not sure if i hurt anything or not but since my turbo manifold is a d port flange i made a pattern off of it and gave the exh ports on the  head a slight D shape. so the intake are D shaped and this is a D port head, and the exh side is now too.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 09:29:49 PM
i did not realize that so thanks for the info. this engine and these do not have harmonic balancers but later models did get them. not sure what year. planned on the rods and pistons. i figured i would have the crank with the flywheel balanced but maybe just the flywheel now.
Balance flywheel separate from rotating assembly.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 09:31:24 PM
laying the shock inline with the axle as in from wheel to center of frame rather than forward like it was as in from wheel to back of seat. i have enough room just need to see how it will lay out.
Yes,in line with axles. Try to hit perpendicular with axle at full bump.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:32:34 PM
Yes,in line with axles. Try to hit perpendicular with axle at full bump.

thats my goal


Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 04, 2016, 09:33:19 PM
so here are some pics of the head. stock spare head first then the head i ported/polished so you can kind of see what i did. i know pics aren't the same as in person but..... now i didn't take any real material off the short side in the intake or exh runners just cleaned all the slag and polished the wall as best as i could. not a lot of material in those spots and read many posts that they can crack easy if you take much. i did go to town in the bowl area and the slag was bad in there. cleaned and took a little out of the cc as well. funny thing is it looks a lot smoother in person but the camera really picks up the marks. so fabbr you've done a few heads so good or bad ...thoughts?
I'll look at these on my big monitor at work tomorrow.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 04, 2016, 09:37:33 PM
also i should add that both of those heads were what they call heart shape comb chambers. stock turbo heads are a straight line like a D shape. i have two cracked turbo heads so i scribed a straight line to cut the comb chamber into the same shape.  also the turbo head is a 62 cc comb chamber and the heart shaped n/a heads 58 cc i believe. i have not re installed vavles yet to cc the head after my work but plan on it. i cannot take a clear pic of the runners around valve stem to show the solid square ledges there machine work left behind which is what i ground out of the other. it too dirty to see the slag either and i call it slag cause that's what it kind of looks like to me. a lot of hours went into doing what i did! also i did make sure when the valve is open i have 3/16" clearence to the comb chamber wall at it's tightest spot in an attempt to unshroud the valves. i plan on going with the flat top piston rather than the dished like factory. now on the n/a head with about 58 cc it raises the comp ration to 9.3 to 1 but on a turbo head of 62cc's its 9 to 1. i'm shooting for 9to1 only to help promote quicker boost or a more responsive turbo. also staying with stock dia valves. i don't see the larger ones many on the turbo ranger forum go with doing that much more for this build rather a slightly higher lift from the cam and hope to maintain better velocity that way. plus not enough material around the valve to remove to keep that 3/16" clearance imo lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: D Walker on December 05, 2016, 02:33:12 AM
If you're not a member already, this site has lots of info and tech available for the 2.3. I've got 2 of these stock motors in my shop for a build someday.

http://www.turboford.org/ (http://www.turboford.org/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on December 05, 2016, 05:40:39 AM
Woohoo pics of ya gettin the car naked!!  That 2.3 should have the torque and hp ##'s to move that fat pig along like you wanted the busa too.  Lookin good.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 07:01:20 PM
Can't tell for sure but I think you may have made a rookie mistake. Looking at the pic it appears you ground the intake port just below the valve seat all the way or ,very close,to the seat with a straight wall below the seat. That actually kills flow if you did. It needs around a 60 degree angle,smoothly blended to the intake port sort of like a carb venturi. It helps the flow to make the turn over the seat and into the combustion chamber.The "throat" just below the seat area should be somewhere around 85% of the inside diameter of the valve seat. I'll see if I can find some pics of what I'm describing.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 07:22:58 PM
Here's 3 pics that might help. First pic shows the seat in red and the area in blue is what I'm talking about. second one ,the area shown as the expansion area is just below the valve. The last one may show pretty much what is needed roughing it in before final blending. The reason you need the expansion area before the valve/seat is to slow the high speed airflow so it can make the turn around/through the seat area much more effectively.  The area in blue (pic1) is the dark area just below the seat in pic3.
The 2.3 should be a very reliable engine. I've built a few in years past .
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 07:40:29 PM
Believe it or not,a rough intake port will outflow a polished intake port,all things equal otherwise.  a polished port will actually grab onto the airflow and reduce it to near zero ,or at least dramatically slower ,close to the port walls. That in turn tries to slow the overall port flow.  A coarse ground surface or an as machined in the case of a cnc ported head will easily outflow a polished one.  The opposite is true of the exhaust. Doesn't really hurt flow polishing the ex port but it does little to enhance it either.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 08:09:26 PM
thanks for the info and now i will have to go look. i smoothed the transition and ground all the chunky slag out but didn't really cut into the wall but did round the area in front of the valve stem throat and on the sides similar as the bo port head was in the head enemy bought. now i will have to go look close right below the valve seat.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 08:11:20 PM
Believe it or not,a rough intake port will outflow a polished intake port,all things equal otherwise.  a polished port will actually grab onto the airflow and reduce it to near zero ,or at least dramatically slower ,close to the port walls. That in turn tries to slow the overall port flow.  A coarse ground surface or an as machined in the case of a cnc ported head will easily outflow a polished one.  The opposite is true of the exhaust. Doesn't really hurt flow polishing the ex port but it does little to enhance it either.

understand what your saying.....don't want the intake charge to hit a brick wall. i did hear a polished port will slow the flow in a sense as well.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
and what are your thoughts on the poss effect, cutting the round exh port into a slight D shape like the turbo manifold inlet port i bought?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 08:29:14 PM
here is a pic of the exh manifold and lower intake manifold stock and what i did to knife edge for a diff upper.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 08:50:53 PM
well here are some better pics... i hope.... to see if i made a rookie mistake and not saying i didn't as this is my first attemp....hence the spare head lol this is the intake side.   does the same principal apply for the exh port just under valve seat?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:05:33 PM
Pics aren't good enough for me to say.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 09:06:29 PM
and exh side
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:09:56 PM
and what are your thoughts on the poss effect, cutting the round exh port into a slight D shape like the turbo manifold inlet port i bought?
Just port match it or at least have no portion of the header hanging into the ex port area. It really isn't too important.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 09:13:54 PM
gotcha and re read what you said about intake port. the top side right under the valve seat should have about a 60* angle vs the rest heading down. if i understand that correctly.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:30:45 PM
well here are some better pics... i hope.... to see if i made a rookie mistake and not saying i didn't as this is my first attemp....hence the spare head lol this is the intake side.   does the same principal apply for the exh port just under valve seat?
Pretty much so.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:32:19 PM
gotcha and re read what you said about intake port. the top side right under the valve seat should have about a 60* angle vs the rest heading down. if i understand that correctly.
Yes. I actually do it in more of a big radius ,blending one angle into the next.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 09:38:43 PM
i went and looked at the unmolested factory head. i see exactly what your talking about now. that angle on the factory head extends below the valve seat about 1/4" to 5/16" and only is found on the back side directing the stream into the middle of the combustion chamber. i learned something today!! i cannot take a good pic that will show it as i tried but ........ anyway the majority of that angle is still there but i did blend into it but not by much basically took the sharp angle off of it. i can see it and feel it with my finger. now the exh port is a diff story where it is still mostly there i did take more out on the exh side. the exh port coming out of the head is still slightly smaller than the header inlet port, i didn't want to open it to the full size.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:40:03 PM
Most 5 angle valve jobs run something like this,15/30/45/60/75,top to bottom. Blending angle into angle makes for happy airflow. The seat should be a true 45 of around .060-.100 wide. Turbo use ,I'd like to see it near the .100. A wider seat helps cool the valve. On the intake side .040-.060 wide.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2016, 09:43:07 PM
i went and looked at the unmolested factory head. i see exactly what your talking about now. that angle on the factory head extends below the valve seat about 1/4" to 5/16" and only is found on the back side directing the stream into the middle of the combustion chamber. i learned something today!! i cannot take a good pic that will show it as i tried but ........ anyway the majority of that angle is still there but i did blend into it but not by much basically took the sharp angle off of it. i can see it and feel it with my finger. now the exh port is a diff story where it is still mostly there i did take more out on the exh side. the exh port coming out of the head is still slightly smaller than the header inlet port, i didn't want to open it to the full size.
Perfectly fine and opening it up would not help . That mismatch helps minimize exhaust gasses reversion.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2016, 10:58:11 PM
Most 5 angle valve jobs run something like this,15/30/45/60/75,top to bottom. Blending angle into angle makes for happy airflow. The seat should be a true 45 of around .060-.100 wide. Turbo use ,I'd like to see it near the .100. A wider seat helps cool the valve. On the intake side .040-.060 wide.

funny you mention this because i was discussing this with the machine shop that is going to do the bore and valve work. he suggested a 4 angle or 5 angle. he was explaining it to me but all i really got from it is that air loves short edges lol  i will have pay attention more now.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: BDKW1 on December 06, 2016, 02:31:39 AM
The word of the day is "boundary layer"....... Well, 2 words......
Skip the 5 angle on the exhaust side and go full radius.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 06, 2016, 05:22:44 AM
The word of the day is "boundary layer"....... Well, 2 words......
Skip the 5 angle on the exhaust side and go full radius.

This leaves no margin of heat transfer. You are not going to gain that much more HP and we are not talking cutting seconds from a quarter mile time. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 05:58:45 AM
This leaves no margin of heat transfer. You are not going to gain that much more HP and we are not talking cutting seconds from a quarter mile time.
CORRECT! On a turbo engine especially,a slightly wider than usual seat is a necessity.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 06, 2016, 09:15:03 AM
CORRECT! On a turbo engine especially,a slightly wider than usual seat is a necessity.

Correct.  The seat is where the heat in the valve is extracted.  With a full radius seat there would only be a thin line where the valve will contact the seat.  There would be no heat transfer from the valve.  This arrangement is suited for and engine that will be taken down after a couple of races and freshened up.  There is no reason for a special vale seat grinding for a turbo engine.  For a turbo engine boosting 25/30 psi that kind of pressure don't care what the valve seat configuration is, It is going into the cylinder via any route it can find. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 10:09:27 AM
Correct ! The only place all the porting and polishing and 4-5 angle seats will be improving performance is off boost. Once boost kicks in all that becomes nearly irrelevant.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 12:50:59 PM
ok so now i'm lost......4 to 5 angle grind is bad for heat dissipation and full radius is best or vise a versa? and porting, sort of polishing and 4 to 5 angle grind are to get it off boost faster? or atleast that was my thought and reason for doing so that and a little more cfm capable flow from head.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 12:54:38 PM
also been looking at these.....http://www.flowperformance.com/system.html (http://www.flowperformance.com/system.html)
thoughts?   not looking for peak cfm just consistent cfm reading so i can flow match and was considering doing so with intake on?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 01:04:28 PM
http://www.flowperformance.com/price.html (http://www.flowperformance.com/price.html)    the $997 one or cheap one lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 07:28:07 PM
ok so now i'm lost......4 to 5 angle grind is bad for heat dissipation and full radius is best or vise a versa? and porting, sort of polishing and 4 to 5 angle grind are to get it off boost faster? or atleast that was my thought and reason for doing so that and a little more cfm capable flow from head.
On a turbo engine the width of the 45* valve seat is crucial to cooling the head of the exhaust valve. IMO,it should be in the area of .100 and if running boatloads of boost a bit wider. If performance off boost or what is the equivalent of a normally aspirated engine is important to you then a radiusing of the 15*/30* angle top cuts and a radiusing of the 60*/75* bottom cuts will show slight gains usually but a quality 5 angle configuration is basically the same for all practical purposes. The 45* seat is left flat. On a pure drag engine some head builders will radius the 45* seat as well . The radius seat seals very well due to the high PSI load in the very narrow contact band but will transfer very little heat from the valve head which isn't much of a concern for the very short operating time of a drag engine. Endurance heads will never have fully radiused seats for that reason. The exhaust valve would be begging to fail. Pretty much the same applies to the intake valve.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 07:50:56 PM
also been looking at these.....http://www.flowperformance.com/system.html (http://www.flowperformance.com/system.html)
thoughts?   not looking for peak cfm just consistent cfm reading so i can flow match and was considering doing so with intake on?
NO! You need at the very least ton  be able to flow test the port shape at the same or more flow and pressure it will see in operation . Flowing at lower rates will give you bogus,useless info since as the flow increases the port shape requirements change as well. Remember that air is a fluid and it behaves similar to water in a port. Take the bare head or the one you have been working on and use a garden hose water stream at different flows and compare the big difference you will see in the pattern exiting the valve. Air behaves similarly. In other words,even though a port may flow the same as the next one at low flow rates ,due to small differences in your port work,they may flow quite differently at real life flow rates. I would look for a used superflow 600 or equivalent if looking into a flow bwnch. That 600 stands for 600 cfm @ approx. 30" pressure drop. It takes several shop vac blower motors to do that. It takes even more if you are flowing a turbo head since you need to maintain boost pressure and flow to test them. If I were you and were not interested in starting a whole new career including 5 axis machining center to duplicate whatever you hand grind developing a port shape I'd just do the best I could and call it good as you are doing.  FAST is right that under boost,port shape/efficiency/size/etc. becomes a bit irrelevant since air under pressure will flow will definitely get in the cylinder.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 08:02:23 PM
I had a superflow110 and also a superflow 600 when I was doing this stuff for real. Both are very good machines and might be found used but the amount of calculations needed make them a dinosaur compared to the new digital SF260 and SF 750 benches. What used to take a few hours is done in minutes now.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2016, 08:24:04 PM
Here's a link to where I bought replacement blowers a couple times. 2 stage ones are best. Takes several to get a good bench built if thinking of DIY. Remember the cabinets will be under high vacumn and pressure. They need to be very,very stout.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 10:10:23 PM
beyond what i was looking to spend on this head lol  ;D but it was a thought to get the cyl filment as equal as possible. for off boost and low boost efficency. the lower in the rpm i can get good usable power the better and that is the goal. i have been working on a n/a D port head. here is a chart of the diff styles being used. http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/4125/2-head-flow-comparison-chart 

and just interesting info on this engine
"These are just general guidelines, it doesn't mean you are guaranteed not to blow something up well before these ratings. It also doesn't mean people haven't made more power than this with stock components. These are generally "safe" power ratings that should last quite a while at these power levels. These are for EFI Turbo engine components. Pre 91 cranks and rods are the same as turbo in n/a engines."

Rods: 420rwhp
Pistons: 450rwhp
Crank: 600+rwhp
Block: 750+rwhp





Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 10:34:23 PM
i understand and agree what fast and yourself are saying, under boost as in 20 to 35 psi the charge will find it's way in, and it will... but with a mild to wild port job the efficiency goes up allowing for more performance when properly done of course. that is all i am shooting for across the board on performance, but low to mid rather than high rpm. there is a point where trying to push high boost through to small of a port is just building heat.  there are many posts on the ford 2.3 forums like turbo ford with a mild clean up as i have attempted to do, based off of what i have read, have made very good to substantial differences in performance, given the fact these are sohc 8 valve heads. is a mild to wild port job needed to make 350 - 400 hp out of a stock head....no it can be done but can only help when properly done. the volvo dohc head in stock form flows the best for stock, but is an undertaking to adapt and not something i am going to do.  i am not going wild because i have to keep it more tame,costs down lol at $1900 from bo port and a stock motor would be capable of sustaining the power level i'm shooting for however, not knowing what kind of shape internals are in, i feel better rebuilding  with better forged pistons and rods to be safe. i would like to flow match the ports in the head. i found a shop in omaha i will have to call again and see what he can or will do. if not to much i will do it. may not yield much diff but can't hurt.
i know you two have quite a bit of experience with this and that is why i have asked and i appreciate the info!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2016, 10:37:57 PM
On a turbo engine the width of the 45* valve seat is crucial to cooling the head of the exhaust valve. IMO,it should be in the area of .100 and if running boatloads of boost a bit wider. If performance off boost or what is the equivalent of a normally aspirated engine is important to you then a radiusing of the 15*/30* angle top cuts and a radiusing of the 60*/75* bottom cuts will show slight gains usually but a quality 5 angle configuration is basically the same for all practical purposes. The 45* seat is left flat. On a pure drag engine some head builders will radius the 45* seat as well . The radius seat seals very well due to the high PSI load in the very narrow contact band but will transfer very little heat from the valve head which isn't much of a concern for the very short operating time of a drag engine. Endurance heads will never have fully radiused seats for that reason. The exhaust valve would be begging to fail. Pretty much the same applies to the intake valve.

ok now that makes sense....learned something again and thanks for the good info!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on December 07, 2016, 08:48:58 AM
Posting up the new intake adapter that DS designed for this build to use a 4.9 intake elbow and 65mm throttle body from a Crown Vic (I think?) on a stock 2.3 lower.  DS will have the details..
Some take the factory 2.3 intake elbow, gut it, knife edge the lower, adapt a larger TB, then cut and rotate it to simplify plumbing to the the intercooler, which is what I did on mine except for the gutting part..


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2F1988%2520Ranger%25202_3Turbo%2FDSCN0064_zpskctjlzmt.jpg&hash=c59e0328136cbb24488b078d2fb27e3b) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/1988%20Ranger%202_3Turbo/DSCN0064_zpskctjlzmt.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2F1988%2520Ranger%25202_3Turbo%2FDSCN0066_zps2vgm3meu.jpg&hash=fa06dfdccb6619aff9791ebad834185d) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/1988%20Ranger%202_3Turbo/DSCN0066_zps2vgm3meu.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2F1988%2520Ranger%25202_3Turbo%2FDSCN0067_zpsbpu4njl7.jpg&hash=2af089d8eda6e1545a9c521bc979802d) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/1988%20Ranger%202_3Turbo/DSCN0067_zpsbpu4njl7.jpg.html)

Stock for comparison..
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2F1988%2520Ranger%25202_3Turbo%2FDSCN0009_zps3s3akhem.jpg&hash=ed1c8cb577315c0ee25003b59e4ebfae) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/1988%20Ranger%202_3Turbo/DSCN0009_zps3s3akhem.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on December 07, 2016, 10:05:48 AM
Dang, shinny alum part adds hp!!  ee:

Come on ups, oh and lotto to speed it along.  I'm getting behind. gg:
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on December 07, 2016, 10:27:49 AM
30hp, minimum!
Highly recommended lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 07:13:01 PM
thanks for posting the pics enemy. if everyone could see the inside of the stock upper intake manifold you would see how restrictive it is and the n/a upper as seen in enemys pic is the same as the turbo model. not only are the small round runners but ford didn't do a good job lining them up. almost off 1/8" in a spot from lining up with the lower intake which stock has round small holes. what i did to open the lower they call knife edging and is one of the first mods they do on the turbo ford forum to improve performance on a few levels. this has been debated with an upper manifold or a adaptor like is being used on dougs to bolt the throttle body directly to a knife bladed lower intake manifold. many of them gut the stock upper so it's one hollow tube rather than hollow half way down and individual tubes through the last half. they also replace the factory throttle body with a larger 60m or 65mm one. i don't think that really helps to much under boost imo. there are mixed reviews on its effect but of course this is all based on the engines in cars or rangers. i really don't agree placing the throttle body directly on top of the lower intake ,because i believe it feeds 2 cyls more than the other until 3/4 to wot by the flow directed off the butterfly. this is my opinnion what do are other thoughts?? i do value everyone's opinions as these are easy mods to experiment with or modify now. 

 so i asked doug to make an adapter for the 90* upper off the v8 crown vic i found.
the base of the 90* crown vic intake is not round like the top it looks like two capital D's back to back like and oval with straight upper and lower walls. which in my opinion would squeeze the feed and help fill the lower equally. now the lower has to flow equal and this is also the reason i was wanting to flow match the intake with upper and lower intake on the head. not saying this will help aid in gaining higher horse power but if i can get the cyls to fill more equally it may make for my usable power in the low to mid range to help grunt over the dune tops at st a  ;D for those of us that like to drive slower lol doug did a fantastic job making these adapter as i asked!! now if you picture this pic with an adapter to contour it down to the knife edge which i like to refer to as a juicer cut lol then you can understand what my thought was to help insure a more equal feed. the stock upper as you  can see in enemy's pics is a long relaxed 90* like a giraffe neck. i'm hoping to maintain stock velocity  with a tight 90*and the larger double d outlet. i could be way off and was hoping enemy would bolt it on and try it  ;) ;) ;D but it will be tried. here is the base of the upper intake i chose.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 07:14:24 PM
with an adapter contouring it down to the lower of course it turns sideways. i am prob over thinking this but worth a try.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 07, 2016, 07:28:05 PM
Once you hit boost,it won't matter much.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 07:28:47 PM
here is a pic of the stock upper on a d port head like the big giraffe necked 90" that enemy posted a pic of. here is a pic of the stock and a ported one most do right off the bat. i wonder if it reduces velocity some for throttle response??
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 07:30:28 PM
Once you hit boost,it won't matter much.

i have wondered that too but if air acts like a fluid wouldn't we still want to funnel it equally or as equal as possible? or once pressurized each will take what they want/can allow?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 07:39:13 PM
i've had a lot of time to think about this lol  ;D ;D and the adapter scotts friend made for those builds that is on dougs rail are really nice space savers but an inch or so above the lower intake ports so that is why i think they are directing flow unequally coming off the butterfly plate.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 07, 2016, 08:19:28 PM
I'm thinking that without a flow bench and knowledge of how to use one to it's fullest it is just a guess what you are doing. There is a lot more to it than just flow numbers. Not trying to be a smart ass or one of those know it all moofers but a person might as well try to copy whoever is the smart guy of the week that you respect their work  or spend a LOT of time at the bench after spending a lot of time boning up on all the shit you can find .  I was very lucky early on ,was invited to Superflows once a year gathering of about 20 of the most respected names in the high performance world. About a hundred of us know nothings  had the opportunity to pick the brains of them for 3 days/nights. I learned more in those 3 days than the previous 2-300 hours at the bench. I guarantee you ,those guys were the gurus of gurus. The bottom line though is that theory still has to be developed at the bench and proven on the dyno.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2016, 08:47:02 PM
it absolutely does and i wish i had the resources and equipment to do just that.... but like you said right now it's theory's and trial and error. just looking for input good or bad cause you never know when it sparks a thought and when i'm over thinking it and need pointed in another direction. not trying to re invent the wheel either just looking to obtain a goal. those three days are an opportunity i wish i could have! especially with guru's that were well acquainted with this engine.  i also understand it's not all about tip cfm flow and that is what i'm trying to learn. i know it takes many hours to begin to learn and i lack the equipment to do all of it but principals help.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2016, 06:14:29 AM
The only thing that really matters when working with a casting is the first inch below the valve and matching the intake ports to the manifold. Almost nothing you do deep in the port itself will improve flow more than a percent or 2 and that is only at higher rpm's.  Opening up a port will usually just kill flow velocity at lower rpm's. For the purpose of a turbo head,you need to concentrate on anything that enhances lower rpm flow off boost. That is the first inch below the valve.  Concentrating on just that will yield ,by far,the biggest performance increases.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2016, 06:18:05 AM
Want to further cloud the subject? Ever hear of swirl and tumble?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on December 08, 2016, 06:41:18 AM
The only thing that really matters when working with a casting is the first inch below the valve and matching the intake ports to the manifold. Almost nothing you do deep in the port itself will improve flow more than a percent or 2 and that is only at higher rpm's.  Opening up a port will usually just kill flow velocity at lower rpm's. For the purpose of a turbo head,you need to concentrate on anything that enhances lower rpm flow off boost. That is the first inch below the valve.  Concentrating on just that will yield ,by far,the biggest performance increases.

The local guy that did the porting on my heads for my Fairlane said he preferred to keep the ports smaller to increase velocity rather than making them as big as possible.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 08, 2016, 07:08:25 AM
The only thing that really matters when working with a casting is the first inch below the valve and matching the intake ports to the manifold. Almost nothing you do deep in the port itself will improve flow more than a percent or 2 and that is only at higher rpm's.  Opening up a port will usually just kill flow velocity at lower rpm's. For the purpose of a turbo head,you need to concentrate on anything that enhances lower rpm flow off boost. That is the first inch below the valve.  Concentrating on just that will yield ,by far,the biggest performance increases.


NOW YOU TELL ME after all those hours grinding on that head!!!!  rofl rofl now see this is the best info to know!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 08, 2016, 07:08:40 AM
Want to further cloud the subject? Ever hear of swirl and tumble?
please explain
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2016, 07:09:11 AM
The local guy that did the porting on my heads for my Fairlane said he preferred to keep the ports smaller to increase velocity rather than making them as big as possible.
Smart man.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2016, 07:09:56 AM

NOW YOU TELL ME after all those hours grinding on that head!!!!  rofl rofl now see this is the best info to know!
You never asked.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Yummi on December 09, 2016, 06:23:04 AM
Quote from: Punkur67 on Yesterday at 06:41:18 AM

    The local guy that did the porting on my heads for my Fairlane said he preferred to keep the ports smaller to increase velocity rather than making them as big as possible.

DS Race,

and i wasn't trying to make the ports bigger just smooth all the sharp leadges in them and there were a lot of those! i wish i could get a clear pic of the stock ports it would amaze everyone it looks like a set of steps in there litterally.


Back to swirly things. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2016, 12:20:29 PM
lost quite a bit, oh well lol....thanks for getting it unlocked yummi.  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2016, 12:23:51 PM
this is one of the builds i have been watching that enemy brought to my attention as well as another user on turbo ford called onesillynotch.

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi202.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa298%2Fonesillynotch%2Fturbo%2520notch%2FMattS-1st_zpsix0cqrqt.png&hash=125e9f381fe14e5813423c89629b0ce3) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/onesillynotch/media/turbo%20notch/MattS-1st_zpsix0cqrqt.png.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2016, 12:24:12 PM
i am hoping to get that 10 psi by 2800 rpm....hoping!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2016, 12:25:33 PM
here is a link with really good pics of the ports in the heads. you can see the top step in a couple that i have been referring to.

http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=058466;p=0 (http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=058466;p=0)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 09, 2016, 07:52:26 PM
Are you beefing up the lower end? Reason I ask is if the boost comes on as early as you want,will the innards be up to it?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 10, 2016, 06:45:18 AM
That was an EXCELLENT write up on porting basics. Pretty good detailing of how to develop that first inch and how to approach the short side radius. The short side is very important.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 10, 2016, 09:03:47 AM
yes it is and i have read it many time lol i didn't feel i needed to do all he did so followed that and just cleaned up those areas rather than really taking much out as he did. now it's really hard to see and i did not know about that first 1" below valve seat so that was good info. there is a lot of restriction in those ledges in a stock head on these and all the info you want based on casting #'s because 1 plant did the best job out of 4 total so those are the most saught after for the guys leaving them stock. i have 5 total heads,,,,3 are cracked. stock turbo heads got good valves but did not get hardened seat for some dam reason so 99% of them out there are cracked from the exh valve seat. now as far as boosting down low......these motors will handle that just fine. here is a list of known turbo selections that have been field tested well over time from stinger performance. he is a very well respected shop on these 2.3 engines. the top two are stock 2.3 turbos only let go 10 - 14 psi factory. they had a switch on the dash on the 87-88 thunderbirds if you ran premium fuel then it would go to 14 psi. the second is the garrett turbo in the 86 and older thunderchickens and mustangs and 4xrti models or whatever had the turbo 2.3....notice the rpm ranges . max boost on the ihi turbo is 18 psi and on the 83 to 86 garrett is 22 psi but anything over 20 pis is like russian rulet from what i read  rofl   also plenty info out there stating for 25 - 35 pis do not want to see full boost under 2800 rpm. so 10 - 15 by 2800 shouldn't be an issue imo



What turbo should I get for "X" hp?
Remember these are estimated "maxed out" power quotes. It does not mean you'll make this much power automatically with this turbo.
-Stock (87-88 Turbo Coupe) Ishi-Warner IHI: Less than 250rwhp, super quick spooling (full boost at 1800-2000 rpm with a few airflow mods) but runs out of steam at higher engine speeds. Great for heavy cars or daily drivers. Good to 18psi or so.
-Stock (83-86 Mustang/Turbo Coupe, 84-89 Merkur) Garrett/AiResearch T3: Up to about 275-300rwhp. Full boost at 2500 rpm or so with a few airflow mods, pulls pretty well up top. Has a very hard "kick" when boost kicks in. Great for a daily driver/street terror with minor mods. Good to 23psi or so.
-T3/T4 Hybrid T04E 46 trim compressor/Stage III exhaust side with .48 a/r for street cars, .63 a/r for street/strip. Great for engines in the 250-350rwhp range. Full boost at 3100rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Nice linear power throughout rpm range. Great for street/strip cars in the 12-13 second 1/4 mile range. Good to 25psi or so.
-T3/T4 Hybrid T04E 50 trim compressor/Stage III exhaust side with .48 a/r for street cars, .63 a/r for street/strip: Great for engines in the 300-410rwhp range. Full boost at 3300rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Nice linear power throughout rpm range. Great for street/strip cars in the 11-12 second 1/4 mile range. Good to 35psi or so.
-Holset HY35: Great for engines in the 300-450+rwhp range. Full boost at 3600rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Pulls like a freight train in the higher rpm range. Great for street/strip cars in the 10-12 second 1/4 mile range. Loves 30+psi of boost.
-Holset HE351: Slightly upgraded version of HY35. Great for engines in the 300-460+rwhp range. Full boost at 3600rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Pulls like a freight train in the higher rpm range. Great for street/strip cars in the 10-12 second 1/4 mile range. Loves 30+psi of boost.
-Holset HX35: Great for engines in the 380-475+rwhp range. Full boost at 3800rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Pulls like a freight train in the higher rpm range. Great for street/strip cars in the 10-11 second 1/4 mile range. Loves 30+psi of boost. Split scroll exhaust housing causes boost control problems unless an external wastegate is used or the divider is cut out.
-T61: Great for engines in the 400-600rwhp range. Full boost at 4000rpm or so with a header and supporting mods. Great for serious street cars or drag cars in the 9-10 second 1/4 mile range. Can handle upwards of 40psi.
-There are also many new GT series turbos that will work on 2.3T applications. I did not include them because they are a much more expensive turbo and since they have many more options available, they should be spec'd out specifically for your setup. The same can be said for the newer Borg Warner EFR turbos. They perform VERY well and spool faster than other turbos of the same size but are quite a bit more expensive than those listed above.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 10, 2016, 09:30:20 AM
this is a response i got from stinger performance. now he is the one that told me running 25 to 35 pis that i don't want full boost under 2800 rpm i believe he said 2750 but i'm rounding up to 2800 and i am saying 10 or lightly more by 2800 rpm as a choice to keep things more reliable. here is his response....


"Raising compression can improve spool time a bit (and make slightly more power out of boost) but it limits how much boost you can get away with for a given octane as well. Increasing airflow through the engine also spools up the turbo quicker (ported head/intake) and increasing displacement does the same thing (running a 2.5 crank for instance). The more effective means of speeding up spool time is to use a modern turbo like the Borg Warner EFR series which spool VERY quickly compared to normal turbos. With that said though, you have to watch what you're doing when trying to get boost as low as possible as full boost too early sends cylinder pressure through the roof and can bend rods, cause detonation, blow head gaskets, etc. It's the same reason you can't spray nitrous at lower RPM, cylinder pressure gets too high and something breaks. "

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 10, 2016, 10:18:35 AM
anything beyond the stock turbos that require supporting mods......one of the first supporting mods is porting the heads. these stock heads just don't flow enough for the higher cfm comp wheels or atleast that is what i take from all that i have read over the last 2 years.



fast i asked this question but it went away when i locked up the post by posting what i now believe to be too large a pic. when you put that spare motor in your green rails you sold to canadian ron you told me it had turbo heads on it so i  took that as the old one did not. you said it made more power and so you turned the boost down for fear ron may hurt himself until he learned to drive the rail. did you ever look into the differences in those heads?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 10, 2016, 12:07:02 PM
I agree with all stinger said.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 10, 2016, 01:40:04 PM
the "What turbo should I get for "X" hp?" is off stingers site.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 10, 2016, 02:21:24 PM
Just my opinion but for dining I'd think   I'd forget the stuff that spools up at higher rpms. I'd shoot for one that sacrifices ultimate HP in favor of earlier spool up. Too much turbo is like too much cam.  Drivability is much more than 1/4 mile ets.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 11, 2016, 11:55:01 AM
Just my opinion but for dining I'd think   I'd forget the stuff that spools up at higher rpms. I'd shoot for one that sacrifices ultimate HP in favor of earlier spool up. Too much turbo is like too much cam.  Drivability is much more than 1/4 mile ets.

yep that is why i am doing a few things diff to get quickest spool. and why i believe i will use an borg warner efr turbo, they spool the fastest. just want as much low and mid i can get.....top end i really don't care about.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: budlight69 on December 11, 2016, 12:02:21 PM
yep that is why i am doing a few things diff to get quickest spool. and why i believe i will use an borg warner efr turbo, they spool the fastest. just want as much low and mid i can get.....top end i really don't care about.

I think you have a great plan DS.  It also depends on how you drive it.  I don't wrap mine too tight, I think it saves the engine for years of trouble free driving.  Going up choke cherry, mine will run about 5200 rpm.  Then I used to watch fast in the green car, bouncing the engine off the rev limiter.   rofl  Give her hell   rofl  But we all know how he drives   ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 11, 2016, 06:04:48 PM
lol i know! that the reason i'm shooing for effecient low and mid power ranges lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 12, 2016, 05:09:31 AM
I think you have a great plan DS.  It also depends on how you drive it.  I don't wrap mine too tight, I think it saves the engine for years of trouble free driving.  Going up choke cherry, mine will run about 5200 rpm.  Then I used to watch fast in the green car, bouncing the engine off the rev limiter.   rofl  Give her hell   rofl  But we all know how he drives   ;D

 :i
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on December 12, 2016, 05:36:27 AM
The rev limit is safe, and if they didn't want you to rev that high, they woulda set it lower!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 06:47:52 AM
The rev limit is safe, and if they didn't want you to rev that high, they woulda set it lower!!!  ;D ;D

exactly and i have always said the factory rev limiter is nothing more than a shift light with out the light part  rofl rofl

fast ......so did you ever look to see why the factory turbo heads out performed the n/a head on your other motor was it a diff cam in that spare engine?????

also i purchased a micro squirt pimp pcm last night. there is a guy from stinger performance that is making a conversion assy that uses the dizzy but replaces the rotor and cap with a 24-2 trigger for cam and crank signal so that it is easier to go seq fuel and spark now enemy will have to shed some light on just how and why as he is the one thats going to be doing the tunning  ;D ;D ;) ;) rofl     i have a 36-1 conversion for this at the crank but i would pre fer this set up so if that dist gear breaks or strip which btw is driven by the oil pump then it shuts the engine down rather than continuing to run with no oil psi.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 08:50:30 AM
tHE REV LIMIT IS FINE FOR THE STOCK CONFIG. aDD A BUNCH MORE POWER AND IT MAY WELL NOT BE WITHOUT INTERNAL MODS.  Damn caps lock...............
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 09:15:29 AM
FWIW,and yes,this is a true story but ,I have never used a rev limiter or tach on my drag engines. I used an electric solenoid shifter triggered my an MSD rpm module. Welllllll,one time I had just put in a new engine and somewhere along the line the chip was dislodged. I made a full pass in first gear. Only lost a couple tenths et. The amazing part was that the data logger showed that I went thru the trap at over 12,000 rpm. 428 inch SBC. Had I not had all the very best parts available in it I would have scattered a lot of pieces everywhere. Amazing what can be done with good parts and  $$$$$$. Of course ,that engine made best et's shifting at 6700. It's identical brother is in the new buggy with the limiter set @6500. I have a bit of safety margin. ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 09:47:40 AM
oh can believe that and yes stock parts will take a little more than performance parts but not double the rpm lol
since i have chose the hot pinto cam rated with a power band from 2k to 6k and most that run it say good to 6500 i believe my soft cut will be 6500 and hard cut 6800 or so.  plenty of documentation that the stock crank good to 7500 rpm and plenty out there that these stock blocks cranks bottom ends and iron heads are good to 600 rwhp. now the guys putting down 1000 hp out them well i bet the only ford left in them is the oil pan and throttle body but would have my doubts on that even  rofl   how long do those last....prob not long.

fabr that was a damn good way to check your internals on that engine lol and now you know how fast you can spin the new one if the components are as strong as the ones in the other motor. things change from batch to batch so never know for sure.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 10:13:09 AM
i am building with cp forged pistons.....best out there for this engine. je, weisco, mahle, kp etc etc all make them and are about $250 cheaper but every report i can find on 4 diff sites all state don't use anything other than cp if your going big boost because they will not last! so after you read that 30 to 40 times from diff posters that had an engine go down form piston failure you start to believe  ;D ;D i will be using crower rods https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-sp93231b-4/overview/make/ford  that are rated at 8200 rpm and 500 hp. so over kill is a good thing as fabr just stated with his story!!  rofl or atleast that's how i took it lol   
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 10:50:50 AM
Its not just the internals. For years I used all the good internals yet still had durability issues until I finally bought a rodeck alum block and a GM CNC NASCAR block. Instantly my maintenance costs went away. Instead of needing a tear down every 30 runs or so I now was able to go all year without any worries of bearing issues. Long story made short, I'd advise building to no higher power level than what is accepted as safe in an endurance application.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 10:57:44 AM
Nothing wrong with Crower but I prefer Oliver rods. On another note, what are you doing with the valve train? Remember that the valve train is the most vulnerable part of any build and has been the downfall of the majority of all builds.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 11:13:08 AM
Nothing wrong with Crower but I prefer Oliver rods. On another note, what are you doing with the valve train? Remember that the valve train is the most vulnerable part of any build and has been the downfall of the majority of all builds.

well as luck would have it there is an engine machine shop 1 mile from my house and he is in the top 5 in lincoln and surrounding area. i am dropping it off with him lol he said he will be doing 5 angle grind and yes i told him boosted on e85, using ss and ferra valves, the better valve guides and seals. i will purchase the cam and rocker arms together but  stock ranger roller rockers have proven to hold up very well to higher performance and rpm builds and i have stock rollers. now the only thing i am still on the fence about is the hydrolic lifters.......... 1 guru told me after 6500 rpm its russian rulet on hydrolic lifters. i did not ask if that was stock or any. they do sell solid lifters that need periodic attention and that's not an issue at all but sort of already have the hydrolics????????????

and of course beehive springs instead of duals, hardened valve seats,better caps and keepers. sohc of course



never heard of oliver so now i will have to check.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 11:18:53 AM
they don't list the rod on there site so i emailed them asking so we'll see what they offer.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 11:49:17 AM
I was just mentioning Oliver rods. I have no idea if they offer them for the 2.3. Whatever rods you use though,do NOT just torque them. Use the stretch specification no matter the torque need to attain proper stretch.

 As for the valve train,I will never again use stud mounted rockers,period ,unless there is no shaft system available. It's been a very long time since I worked on a 2.3 and to be very honest I can't remember if it uses stud mounted rockers or not but if it does and you want to not have any worries then a shaft system is the only way to fly.Studs do nothing but deflect and create instability to the valve train that will destroy an engine faster than any other cause,IMO.  I think your engine is an overhead cam though with the rockers directly operated off the cam so none of that is relevent.

Now,hydraulic lifters-fine till they aren't. :lol:  On a street engine,mild performance,I'd use them. On your engine..............probably not unless you stick with stud mounted rockers if that is what you have. Having said that,I'd stick with whatever the current TRUE gurus recommend.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 11:52:29 AM
Oh,beehive springs would NOT be my choice unless (and again,I don't remember for sure)the water jackets are too close to the spring seat to allow them to be opened up for larger OD springs. Just always keep in mind that correct valve train geometry is your friend and being "close enough" ,in this case, is NOT close enough.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
no shaft and no stud in this case sort of a pinned fit....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4rCXsDDZKg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4rCXsDDZKg)   

this will show you .....if you look you'll see the spring basket now there are a couple cam options out there as the one i chose that are very min additional lift over stock so no need to alter spring basket however there has been discussion on double over the beehive and specifically the what if you break a spring with a double you have a catch spring. i would have to do a search to explain that one properly as to the advantages of the beehive in this motor. and yes seats are right over he water major artery lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 01:59:23 PM
In this case it is extremely important that the valve job is done with consideration of installed valve stem height . If it is not right and / or the cam base circle is different than stock your stem to rocker contact geometry will be crap. IMO, never assume the machine shop did it right. Use a bit of Prussian blue on the valve tip to verify the contact area is centered over the stem. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 02:00:49 PM
FWIW a beehive spring never is preferred unless it is the last resort only option.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 02:27:26 PM
well other than the obvious from having seen both i cannot say i know why one would be better than the other so please explain.......also yes on valve stem height, wishman machine is one of very few i trust to work on my engines and he is also the one that did enemy's machine work on his ranger engine which has been damn good. i will give him the specs however that hot pinto cam states from engle no direct drop in no mods needed. but yes always need to verify. is that prussian blue available at parts stores?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 02:36:29 PM
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/beehive-springs-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/ (http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/beehive-springs-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 12, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
ya know what upon what i've read and just discussed i am leaning towards dual springs again but i will discuss this with the machine shop again when i get there. i just stopped and talked to him but it's cold out and dinner was calling and not important at this time but will be. i understand or have a pretty good grasp of the fundamentals of the beehive spring but and i have been told that for the 2 step launch they are per-erred but for constant on and off throttle under 6500 rpm, if one breaks the idea of dropping a valve just doesn't sit well where there duals have an inner to hold it. these are non interference motor btw with dual springs that is lol on the fence again
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 07:32:31 PM
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/beehive-springs-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/ (http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/beehive-springs-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/)
This,from that link is why I will not use beehives unless there is no other choice.

Rick Moody
Every set of beehive springs I have bought broke in the area where they narrow down. I don't use them on street applications for that reason. Additionally,I prefer the benefit of a dual spring being able to possibly save your engine in the event of a broken spring. I have had that happen personally.

The benefits,which I do not dispute,for a drag race engine could be a plus as the benefit to a high rpm endurance application  could be a plus as well if we were in a competition event are not worth the negligible performance increase for our use in the dunes.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 07:43:18 PM
Parts stores will likely have the prussion blue. It is commonly used to check gear mating surfaces. Use it VERY,VERY sparingly,it goes a LONG way.  Put a light coating on the valve stem tip and wipe most of it off , rotate the cam through a couple revolutions. You will want to do this before the head is assembled ,just keep the valve in contact with the rocker with your finger. Do one valve at a time,being sure to number their position in the head.  Buy the smallest tube you can buy. It will be a lifetimes supply.  rofl
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 12, 2016, 07:49:17 PM
ya know what upon what i've read and just discussed i am leaning towards dual springs again but i will discuss this with the machine shop again when i get there. i just stopped and talked to him but it's cold out and dinner was calling and not important at this time but will be. i understand or have a pretty good grasp of the fundamentals of the beehive spring but and i have been told that for the 2 step launch they are per-erred but for constant on and off throttle under 6500 rpm, if one breaks the idea of dropping a valve just doesn't sit well where there duals have an inner to hold it. these are non interference motor btw with dual springs that is lol on the fence again
They're non interference engines so long as you don't drop a valve........................ ;) ;) Break a cam belt though and you're golden. ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 13, 2016, 08:00:53 PM
Link to an excellent very short topic on porting . Some good stuff there to make you think. Nothing specific,just a little food for thought.

http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm (http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 13, 2016, 09:18:18 PM
good info .....ya know i have seen a few video's of guys using jb weld but i would be skeptical of it vibrating loose. i know it's strong enough to thread and the slower curing is better to use in this case as it's stronger as well as prep etc etc but, still?? saw a couple video of guys welding in diff spots on iron heads. i'm not real worried about what i did as i didn't take out much just mostly smoothing and de burring. i am concerned that i may have thinned a spot where water pass's behind but i'll find out i guess. i didn't hog anything out in the base of the port. the one link i posted was very interesting and i have read it several times. when i get time i am going to check that 22* angle and see how far off that is. bo port is catching up and may be open for new business and once he is i have considered sending my spare in for his stage 1 build which is 180 ish cfm that is a good mild upgrade in flow but professionally done. would make my conscience feel better even though my wallet won't be  rofl
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 13, 2016, 09:24:27 PM
also dropped block and crank off at machine shop this am to have it checked for bore so i know which pistons to buy. 3 to 4weeks to get the cp flat top pistons i want. should be 9 to 1 comp to 9.3 to1. i need to check comb chamber cc again then wishman can check the rest to know. i'm shooting for 9 to1 where factory is 8 to1. now a couple of scotts friends with better cam and i think larger valves with mild bolt on upgrades are making 360 hp at the wheels on the dyno at 15 psi boost. bo however has been pushing 35 psi on e85 on a megasand and the older weak case on 1300 paddles. hard to believe that trans holds up but 1300 paddles at st a so......
i have been looking at 1300 plus paddles myself and will go larger fronts also adding the eps out of the saturn vue i have had for a while. they off er 100 amp to 200 amp alternators for this engine wouldn't think i would need more than the 160 amp. basically the same price. the borg warner efr turbo is oil and water  so stock water pump has a port for the factory turbo water and a return port in the block as well. that'll be easy. i want to add an oil cooler external as well but we'll see.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 13, 2016, 09:51:38 PM
I always used Devcon aluminum epoxy putty , JB works equally as well but a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 13, 2016, 09:55:31 PM
Devcon works so well,I have even intentionally cut out a port wall into water jackets to drastically reshape ports ,used aluminum fine mesh screening as reinforcement and reconstructed a new intake port wall. Same goes for when raising a port to make it taller and wider where it actually cuts into the rocker area under the valve cover. Never had any problems there either.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 13, 2016, 10:33:54 PM
well now that gives me a couple ideas! i wonder if i could use the jb since it's iron to fill in the base just a little to straighten the runner so to speak?? i could make a template like that 1 link and cut that 22* angle and flatten as he states then fill in the base of the bowl sort of to help to angle up like that 60* angle just under the valve seat. wonder what that would do? in theory
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 13, 2016, 10:39:27 PM
if so would a matching 60* angle at the base like the top do anything as in matching that angle with a bit of a straight wall to the top, at the back?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 14, 2016, 05:40:14 AM
Got any sketches of what you mean? Ya lost me.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 14, 2016, 04:02:22 PM
no  i don't really but let me see what i can do. if you send air into the intake port ....where it hits the back wall behind he valve stem and below the valve seat in below that area you said never grind into, that base or floor at that point is not raised so much so sharp 90* turn. i was wondering if i were to use some  jb weld to turn that sharp 90 into a very shallow or 60* turn if that's even worth the effort.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 14, 2016, 05:06:27 PM
I assume you mean on the long side radius. IF I were to do anything I would work on raising the floor and increasing the short side radius. You will find more improvement there. All this being said though I would not go to the effort at this time. Later,after you get it dialed in is when I'd look for flow performance improvements above what you already are doing. That way you can tell if you have improved things or not with your porting efforts.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 14, 2016, 09:42:04 PM
i am talking about the floor back right underneath the valve seat up against the back wall of the throat. but i need to get the motor rebuilt and running so that may have to wait.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 17, 2016, 09:19:01 PM
well stinger made a good recommendation on this 90* upper intake.... he said the sharp inside turn....short side...... so there is room to weld in the back side so i can cut 1/4" out and round that off. i will do it as i can see what he's talking about. machinist has not measured my bore yet so still haven't ordered pistons but got "pimp" micro squirt pcm by stinger and all my gaskets bought etc etc

on anther note i have been wanting a single row led bar for a while to put in a diff location. so i decided to try this one......http://extremeledlightbars.com/pro-series-2d-40-single-row-led-light-bar-16000-lumens-combo-beam (http://extremeledlightbars.com/pro-series-2d-40-single-row-led-light-bar-16000-lumens-combo-beam)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 17, 2016, 09:34:07 PM
it is sharp corner...

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2FDSCN3430%2520-%2520Copy_zpsapk151dh.jpg&hash=7ecdc82359021aaf9eb087a99d5544f2) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/DSCN3430%20-%20Copy_zpsapk151dh.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2FDSCN3437_zpsauapxdlm.jpg&hash=a1d4c5ebf69de296183d8dee79df8d0b) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/DSCN3437_zpsauapxdlm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 17, 2016, 10:59:51 PM
well stinger made a good recommendation on this 90* upper intake.... he said the sharp inside turn....short side...... so there is room to weld in the back side so i can cut 1/4" out and round that off. i will do it as i can see what he's talking about. machinist has not measured my bore yet so still haven't ordered pistons but got "pimp" micro squirt pcm by stinger and all my gaskets bought etc etc

on anther note i have been wanting a single row led bar for a while to put in a diff location. so i decided to try this one......http://extremeledlightbars.com/pro-series-2d-40-single-row-led-light-bar-16000-lumens-combo-beam (http://extremeledlightbars.com/pro-series-2d-40-single-row-led-light-bar-16000-lumens-combo-beam)
I have a set of the extremes and honestly,can't tell a bit of difference in them and rigids.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 18, 2016, 09:58:43 AM
good to know and as far as rated lumens....that one is 2k lumens short of the two rigids i ran but none of it matters because I WILL NOT be going for night rides at st A and i can't see worth a damn at night to lead at LS so we'll let carl , enemy, shane if he ever makes it again or fast lead from now on  rofl rofl now that was a run ride through the fence  LMAO LMAO sorry fast couldn't help it
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: BDKW1 on December 18, 2016, 02:20:18 PM
This,from that link is why I will not use beehives unless there is no other choice.

Rick Moody
Every set of beehive springs I have bought broke in the area where they narrow down. I don't use them on street applications for that reason. Additionally,I prefer the benefit of a dual spring being able to possibly save your engine in the event of a broken spring. I have had that happen personally.

The benefits,which I do not dispute,for a drag race engine could be a plus as the benefit to a high rpm endurance application  could be a plus as well if we were in a competition event are not worth the negligible performance increase for our use in the dunes.
A few million LS motors would beg to differ on street use on beehive springs. Spring failure is usually due to incorrect selection or installation.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 19, 2016, 06:05:35 AM
A few million LS motors would beg to differ on street use on beehive springs. Spring failure is usually due to incorrect selection or installation.
I won't argue that LS motors successfully use them or that they are inherently bad. I WILL say that many,many cam mfg's don't sell the best springs in their kits and beehives are no exception.If they are not well designed ,installed,IMO,they are more prone to breakage. That being said,I'll stick with dual srings for that small extra safety factor in case of a spring failure. All of this is just personal preferences based on past experience. I will only use springs of the highest quality no matter the design. Honestly,when DS said beehive I assumed he meant beehives used to avoid cutting the spring pocket to a larger size .THAT will never be used on any engine I build. Beehives used with reduced OD at the top are a different animal. Google up some spintron vids of springs @ high rpms.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 02:41:47 PM
ok so don't have any update pics that i want to share just yet but soon. here is a vid i took for rcv. i bought there 28* plunging cv's they advertise good to 28*. they won't even handle 25* but better at 24*. i sent this to them to prove this. i tried every which way i could think of rotating the cv spline by spline with 1" of axle outside of each cv to 12" of axle plunge. btw i measured my axle plunge using both my fixed 930 cv's and 1/16" on pass side through a 24" wheel stroke. so what am i doing wrong. i did make sure they were clocked internally correctly and end for end which is why i decided to try spline by spline even tired facing them the backwards. fixed cv's work great and rcv says they are machined to 30* but i will need to fix the axle to one cv on one end so it doesn't pull out on the cv. i said then how do the $62 empi chinese cv's work on trailing arm rails at 25* to 28*????????????? he said he doesn't know. they are willing to refund my money but what are your thoughts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkB1f1dKPi8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkB1f1dKPi8)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 02:42:13 PM
those are mock tubes not the actual a-arms btw
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on February 21, 2017, 03:02:33 PM
Did you get the undersized balls? I just put the RCV 300M 930 cv's on my car and they are at 26* and perfect. They may be even more angle than that now that the limit straps have had time to stretch.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 03:46:09 PM
no i did not get the undersized balls. they said these are machined to 30* but not to let them past 28* they sent 10 by mistake and i have tired 6 out of those 10 with same results as video. i sent 6 back and am about to send 4 more back and get the empi ones if these won't do it. i don't plan on running them at 28* but they won't even do 25 as you can see in the video. i ran the fixed 930s at 35* peak for the last 5 years on the turbo busa with no issue. i even asked rcv how trailing arm cars can operate at 25* or even 26* or 28 if i supposedly need to c clip both sides of one cv????? they suggest a fixed 930 on wheel side and plunger on trans side using a c clip on both sides of fixed cv to keep upper running in the middle. fine and dandy but still cannot operate theres at 28* and they can't tell me why.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 21, 2017, 05:39:40 PM
First thing I'd do is ditch that POS inclinometer. No offense meant but I have been bitten by those POS before.I have a couple in the tool box but I only use them to get a rough approximation.Get a decent digital and recheck. AN example would be one time I was bolting the rear arms on and used one. They just did not look right. Both sides visually appeared to lean out. WTH? I got out the digital and did some investigating. They did indeed lean out about 3 degrees according to the digital. I then went about checking out the POS's. Ended with one have a bogus scale and the others pivot was off center and did not swing correctly. The v groove on the edge was not parallel with the base on one as well. Before you throw in the towel,get a digital. Even a HF digital is better than what you are using,usually. Does you phone have an inclinometer app? If so I'd even trust it more than what you are using. That is where I'd start before I sent the cv's back and went with EMPI "stuff".
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 21, 2017, 05:41:20 PM
Now,why are you using plunging cv's in the first place?  I assume you are designing the a arms with near zero plunge?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 21, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
One more thing,I am not a fan of those greasers. Ditch them and drill/tap the cv body for a zerk. Much better for the cv bolts. Gee,I'm being an ass aren't I?  ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on February 21, 2017, 06:10:51 PM
Something like these work great. I have had a craftsman one for years. Very nice to make sure you have equal angles on tubes in the car too.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357?cm_mmc=Shopping (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357?cm_mmc=Shopping)|THD|google|&mid=syrjdvt4k|dm_mtid_8903tb925190_pcrid_50250225219_pkw__pmt__product_205999357_slid_&gclid=Cj0KEQiA56_FBRDYpqGa2p_e1MgBEiQAVEZ6-06IX3qLlQK6loUTCWmQF_qP92jp6EmjFiWD6Ldw0JUaAnp68P8HAQ
First thing I'd do is ditch that POS inclinometer. No offense meant but I have been bitten by those POS before.I have a couple in the tool box but I only use them to get a rough approximation.Get a decent digital and recheck. AN example would be one time I was bolting the rear arms on and used one. They just did not look right. Both sides visually appeared to lean out. WTH? I got out the digital and did some investigating. They did indeed lean out about 3 degrees according to the digital. I then went about checking out the POS's. Ended with one have a bogus scale and the others pivot was off center and did not swing correctly. The v groove on the edge was not parallel with the base on one as well. Before you throw in the towel,get a digital. Even a HF digital is better than what you are using,usually. Does you phone have an inclinometer app? If so I'd even trust it more than what you are using. That is where I'd start before I sent the cv's back and went with EMPI "stuff".
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Now,why are you using plunging cv's in the first place?  I assume you are designing the a arms with near zero plunge?

i checked the pass side and have only 1/16" plunge and i really thought about drilling the cv housings but had already set spacing for the greaser plates. i asked to return these and buy non plunge. they do actually run cooler anyways. just thought i would try the plunging in case i was off on spacing. plus they were cheaper lol $120 each vs $285 for the fixed
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 08:55:51 PM
Something like these work great. I have had a craftsman one for years. Very nice to make sure you have equal angles on tubes in the car too.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357?cm_mmc=Shopping (http://m.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357?cm_mmc=Shopping)|THD|google|&mid=syrjdvt4k|dm_mtid_8903tb925190_pcrid_50250225219_pkw__pmt__product_205999357_slid_&gclid=Cj0KEQiA56_FBRDYpqGa2p_e1MgBEiQAVEZ6-06IX3qLlQK6loUTCWmQF_qP92jp6EmjFiWD6Ldw0JUaAnp68P8HAQ

thanks i will check one out at home depot
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 08:56:35 PM
One more thing,I am not a fan of those greasers. Ditch them and drill/tap the cv body for a zerk. Much better for the cv bolts. Gee,I'm being an ass aren't I?  ;) ;D ;D

lol nope just yourself lol and i already have the longer bolts and spacing set up for them
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 09:05:24 PM
what about these?

https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Protractor-Inclinometer-Backlight-Magnetic/dp/B00WQLHG2G/ref=sr_1_1/167-8247676-2214637?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1487735818&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=digital+angle+finder&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Protractor-Inclinometer-Backlight-Magnetic/dp/B00WQLHG2G/ref=sr_1_1/167-8247676-2214637?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1487735818&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=digital+angle+finder&psc=1)

https://www.amazon.com/Calculated-Industries-7434-AccuMASTER-Inclinometer/dp/B0148M7P4O?SubscriptionId=AKIAIKOHFALUJCKC3KXQ&tag=bdyahoo-desk-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0148M7P4O&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER (https://www.amazon.com/Calculated-Industries-7434-AccuMASTER-Inclinometer/dp/B0148M7P4O?SubscriptionId=AKIAIKOHFALUJCKC3KXQ&tag=bdyahoo-desk-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0148M7P4O&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER)

http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-angle-gauge-95998.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-angle-gauge-95998.html)

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 21, 2017, 10:03:09 PM
i checked the pass side and have only 1/16" plunge and i really thought about drilling the cv housings but had already set spacing for the greaser plates. i asked to return these and buy non plunge. they do actually run cooler anyways. just thought i would try the plunging in case i was off on spacing. plus they were cheaper lol $120 each vs $285 for the fixed
Remember that the fixed cv's still have plunge. The axle can freely plunge in the star. Just use a clip on the upper cv/trans side. You would have at minimum an inch or so of plunge. Honestly,if it were me there would be no decision to be made and non plunge it is. Yes, quite a price diff but I firmly believe they will save you money in the long run. Less maintenance,heat,thrust load to the trans side case bearings,etc..
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 21, 2017, 11:06:25 PM
agree and already proved the heat part in the last 5 years even the guys at rcv were surprised i kept track of temps on those cv's....have to ask because i used clips on both end for when i bottomed my suspension out. do you only use a clip on trans side? i know you have diff axles and already told them i would ship back and exchange with more cash for fixed because i would like to set max at 28* safely and only way to do that is with fixed imo. i took temps on mine with them set a max of 35* for that 5 years. yes diff tq load then i will be putting to them in the future but angle is the heat with cv's!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on February 22, 2017, 05:27:54 AM
Are you testing them dry?  I know that makes a diff in how the spin too.  If they sent ya 10 for the price of 4 then they should upgrade ya to non plunge for free for being a nice guy. lol.

But with A arms, I'd go non plunge too never look back, only money...  They will put in grease fittings I believe when ya order.  Spacer/greaser are 3/8", so just shorten the tabs a bit.  Cause I'm sure you only tack welded, right? 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 22, 2017, 06:04:55 AM
agree and already proved the heat part in the last 5 years even the guys at rcv were surprised i kept track of temps on those cv's....have to ask because i used clips on both end for when i bottomed my suspension out. do you only use a clip on trans side? i know you have diff axles and already told them i would ship back and exchange with more cash for fixed because i would like to set max at 28* safely and only way to do that is with fixed imo. i took temps on mine with them set a max of 35* for that 5 years. yes diff tq load then i will be putting to them in the future but angle is the heat with cv's!
yesUnnecessary.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 22, 2017, 06:08:38 AM
Non plunge cv's make a lot less heat due to the parallel tracks vs the angled tracks of a plunging cv.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 22, 2017, 06:10:05 AM
Are you testing them dry?  I know that makes a diff in how the spin too.  If they sent ya 10 for the price of 4 then they should upgrade ya to non plunge for free for being a nice guy. lol.

But with A arms, I'd go non plunge too never look back, only money...  They will put in grease fittings I believe when ya order.  Spacer/greaser are 3/8", so just shorten the tabs a bit.  Cause I'm sure you only tack welded, right?

tack welded until the fixed cv worked then fully welded and didn't know they would drill the cv for me. the greaser plate basically 1/4" thick and i did not grease the cv but it has plenty of what smells like gun oil they cam with plus i sprayed some wd40 while i was trying it. the prob is it keeps trying to roll over at that angle which it shouldn't do that.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 22, 2017, 06:12:15 AM
Non plunge cv's make a lot less heat due to the parallel tracks vs the angled tracks of a plunging cv.

correct and  i told rcv that i had checked my fixed cv's at 35* about a dozen times for heat and that the hottest i ever saw was 175* on the outters . those were the f150 cv's but they had a wind block were the uppers were wide open so i always wondered if that was part of it.  the interesting part was they said that was impressive as they have seen many utv cv's operating at extreme angles hitting 300* and melting because of it. ya know they didn't want to go wider just taller lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 22, 2017, 06:59:13 PM
so they asked me to try a plunging at the trans and fixed at wheel. so i did tonight. the plunging are in a box and going ups back to rcv tomorrow and fixed are going to head this way. they do not even work at 26* they are at 27* in the vid based on what both inclinometers say. i did order a digital one but will be a few days before it shows. it cannot be the way i am setting them up they must have put to large a ball in them or machined wrong.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vRWVjzLlik&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vRWVjzLlik&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 24, 2017, 12:11:37 PM
once i get this side complete i can make the other
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 24, 2017, 12:12:36 PM
debating on the shock in this config or like i had it before but leaning hard on this direction as it appears to have to be the most benificial
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 24, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
Brian,I hope we both are close enough friends for me to say this without pissing you off but do you think you might need to step back for a bit,clear your mind and think this rear layout over a bit? My front arms on the new buggy fall into that category. I should have taken a week off doing them,bought shorter shocks/bypasses and I woyld have been a lot happier. (Guess what is already CADded up for when  I get a bit more time.)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 24, 2017, 05:14:21 PM
i am not sure exactly what you mean so spit it out? friendship or not ( not much piss's me off and you know that) i value honest opinions so let it rip lol the lower is a bit gawdy and as far as shocks go that is what i have and trying to keep these 2.5 airs at 1.5 to 1 ratio. i did buy enough 1.5 tube to build a complete new chassis and decided to guinny pig this one. already have a list of design changes so like i said spit it out
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 24, 2017, 05:16:30 PM
and after seeing enemy's bend the cage design is first on the list. the nose is in for a change too for better shock angle and rear as well as i like the shocks in board like this but more to the outside
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 24, 2017, 08:13:15 PM
OK,my take. Lower arm is unnecessarily wide at frame/too much bracing. A.75:1 ratio would be ample for strength. In other words if arm is 24" long then a arm mount spread at frame of 18" would be ample. Simple triangulation from front pivot to rear heim is also more than adequate.

 Upper arm spread,IMO is too narrow at frame pivots. Again ,something in the area of .65:1 would be the right ballpark. However,I'd run the shock thru the upper arm and that would make the wider mounting work well. The upper arm gets a lot less loading than the lower and just needs minimal reinforcement.

 I see those double adjuster in the pic and that was a very ,very good addition to the design of the rear hub carriers!!!!!!!!!!!

 LMAO,ya my paint skills suck.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 24, 2017, 08:18:04 PM
Red is lower arm and this shows upper in whatever the hell that color is.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on February 24, 2017, 09:36:26 PM
Red is lower arm and this shows upper in whatever the hell that color is.  ;D ;D
Ohhh. Are those the new King shocks? Haha
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 24, 2017, 09:53:37 PM
yup,latest and greatest!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 25, 2017, 10:19:31 AM
i could mount the shock on the outside of the frame but.....that poses a problem with wheel travel as it is a 14" stroke shock. however i will go look at that as it is an interesting thought. as far as the spread number/ratio's you posted i agree. those numbers work great for the front and have proved to work well on the rear in your busa rail. i know you have applied them to you offroad v8 build as well. i have always liked the look and principal of the formula 1 lower control arms and if you look at the pic i included they are close to a 45* angle. now the later years don't use a 3 point at the frame design. i have seen that design however but i believe it's an older design however they don't hit or up root trees lol i am not using rear steer either however interesting thought lol

the lower control arm i have built has a 45* third arm going forward. it does not look proportionately correct with the rest of it. my rod length is 28" on the main link which is almost straight out and 1.5" od .25" wall, the rest is 1.25" od .120 wall. that is what i called gawdy looking but that load is what i was aiming for. as it has proven to work well on enemy's and carls rails. now as you can see in the pics........my upper has a narrower mounting point at the frame because of the starter. if i had a mendi with a starter on top of the bell housing i would have a much larger stance. i admit that bracing on the top is excessive but i like the way it looks and because of the narrower stance i figured it needed a little extra bracing.

i decided to try this rear end using 3/4" chromoly heims. those double adjusters are called jack screws. they too are 3/4" chromoly and i really wanted to be able to make quick and easy adjustments. when i build the next chassis i prob will be using a trans with a top mount starter giving me plenty of room! now from all my years of designing and using multi link rear ends i have learned ( the hard way once lol) that the lower lateral rods take more load than the upper lateral rod.  as you can see in the one pic it folded however it folded up not down. so i have always taken that as the carrier wants to rotate opposite of the wheel. that was the last time i used aluminum lateral rods btw. this is diff from a multi link. i am def open to ideas and this is the chassis to try them out on as it is a guinea pig lol

also i have worked on car suspension for about 26 years now. the interesting thing i have always noticed is with 4 cyl cars the lower control arm stance is narrower than a v6 or v8 front wheel drive. on the v8 or v6 the frame stance is actually much wider than the arm is long and there is a 45* or 40* pitch for lateral support. i always assumed that was also because the upper was a strut.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 25, 2017, 10:22:30 AM
the starter and in front of it,,,,, the bell housing are in my way of a wider stance for the upper at this time. short of mounting the upper to the engine block i am not sure how i would get that extra space. i would pre fer it.  hmmmmm i wonder....i'll have to check just had an idea
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 25, 2017, 12:31:40 PM
ya that won't work lol the bell housing and starter are in the way so that's it for the upper at this point. as for the lower yep it's over kill and with that .75 to 1 on a 28" arm length ( center of heim to center of heim) then if i came straight out that would be 45* towards the front which is what i have on the front section. 21" spread. the rear section of the lower is 13" spread and the upper has only a 10" spread which is a 26" long rod. the rear has a 2* neg camber pitch at full bump at this point based on a usable 22" wheel travel which will leave me with 4" gc but that will be determined by shock placement so if left with 20" then gc at full bump goes up. and no matter what i always want 3 points of connection at the frame on the lower. personal preference.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on February 25, 2017, 02:42:30 PM
Thats it, I'm backroading it tonight to check this out..
Whether yer home or not.. I know how to crawl through your cat door  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on February 26, 2017, 04:43:17 AM
Thats it, I'm backroading it tonight to check this out..
Whether yer home or not.. I know how to crawl through your cat door  ;D
Danger ranger in route to get in the car door. This could go sooooo wrong.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 26, 2017, 09:37:47 AM
i could mount the shock on the outside of the frame but.....that poses a problem with wheel travel as it is a 14" stroke shock.Cut those babies down. I think Fox and King both offer that service still. Maybe not but if so,you could get just what you need and likely make mounting them a LOT easier.    however i will go look at that as it is an interesting thought. as far as the spread number/ratio's you posted i agree. those numbers work great for the front and have proved to work well on the rear in your busa rail. i know you have applied them to you offroad v8 build as well. i have always liked the look and principal of the formula 1 lower control arms and if you look at the pic i included they are close to a 45* angle.Yes,45* is optimal for strength-agreed. now the later years don't use a 3 point at the frame design. i have seen that design however but i believe it's an older design however they don't hit or up root trees lol i am not using rear steer either however interesting thought lol The middle link does very little actually,IMO

the lower control arm i have built has a 45* third arm going forward. it does not look proportionately correct with the rest of it. my rod length is 28" on the main link which is almost straight out and 1.5" od .25" wall, the rest is 1.25" od .120 wall. that is what i called gawdy looking but that load is what i was aiming for. I see your point and don't disagree with your thinking but I do believe it is a bit overkillas it has proven to work well on enemy's and carls rails. now as you can see in the pics........my upper has a narrower mounting point at the frame because of the starter. the upper arm is my true concern-I think you need to find a way to widen the frame mounting points somehow. if i had a mendi with a starter on top of the bell housing i would have a much larger stance. i admit that bracing on the top is excessive bracing is not really excessive as it will make a strong arm but the frame mounting points have me concerned.but i like the way it looks and because of the narrower stance i figured it needed a little extra bracing.

i decided to try this rear end using 3/4" chromoly heims. those double adjusters are called jack screws. they too are 3/4" chromoly and i really wanted to be able to make quick and easy adjustments. without those double adjusters it would be a bear to attach the hub plate and they will allow very eay toe adjustments. I like it! but a double heim bottom arm with a single heim on the top does the same thing and is also amply strong. when i build the next chassis i prob will be using a trans with a top mount starter giving me plenty of room! now from all my years of designing and using multi link rear ends i have learned ( the hard way once lol) that the lower lateral rods take more load than the upper lateral rod.  as you can see in the one pic it folded however it folded up not down. so i have always taken that as the carrier wants to rotate opposite of the wheel. I don't believe there are any rotational forces acting on it unless a link bends that was the last time i used aluminum lateral rods btw. this is diff from a multi link. i am def open to ideas and this is the chassis to try them out on as it is a guinea pig lol

also i have worked on car suspension for about 26 years now. the interesting thing i have always noticed is with 4 cyl cars the lower control arm stance is narrower than a v6 or v8 front wheel drive. on the v8 or v6 the frame stance is actually much wider than the arm is long and there is a 45* or 40* pitch for lateral support.I agree with your thinking on this pretty much i always assumed that was also because the upper was a strut.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 26, 2017, 11:04:32 AM
gawd damit lol i was concerned about the uppers before but now you have me more concerned lol  i do see your point and in person none the less. i did use .120 wall for the frame member that the uppers attach too and my double gusseted tabs to spread the load. one thing you can't see is the side of the rear tabs are actually welded to the back of the chassis as well as the horizontal frame member .......thought was to spread the twisting load. actually need to make taller carriers to get that spread higher but the starter makes that impossible. a 5 link rear end would be a breeze in this case no doubt but i want a dual a-arm. i am still looking at a way to widen the top. i do plan on ls before st a at some point just to test and tune and hit a few trees to check the rear. the lower is over kill no doubt but i like it. i have ideas to tone it down when i do the next one. told the wife i wasn't building anymore but and she never believed me sooooo...........ya shit happens  rofl rofl rofl rofl  you are correct a single point at the top is strong enough vs the double i went with but that single point would have to be right above the front lower to get the actual use out of the jack screws or it would pivot correctly for easy toe change it would effect camber and toe at the same time which is why i went this way.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 26, 2017, 11:11:51 AM
based on all the link rears i have designed and built...... i believe there is a rotational force being applied to the lowers. every rail has shown me indicators that there is. when i tore this one down i noticed the lower lateral rods had a slight bow to them. straight edge shows about a 1/16" bow. the uppers are straight. i have hit trees and bush's down at LS and that could be the case but both sides are the same. i have seen this on all of them and always the lower. the aluminum laterals were a bad idea though lol i tried it and it failed but.......yep learning curve lol i know you disagree with the rotational forces thought but i cannot deny what i have personally witnessed on my own rails.  at this point my only other option is to weld a pivot outside the frame on the rear and add a third point of pivot  to the uppers. may do it not sure yet i have a lot to get done yet. the next frame will be about 6" longer for these purposes.

spoke to fast this am....intersting to hear how many rails are running megasand trans down there let alone in his group. he actually said all the medi trans had been opened up but none of the megasand trans. have to wait for him to chime in explain that. sounds like the megasands are running turbo 2.5 suby's from out front with his " 400 hp tune"
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 26, 2017, 11:37:34 AM
based on all the link rears i have designed and built...... i believe there is a rotational force being applied to the lowers.The only rotational force would be from braking. every rail has shown me indicators that there is. when i tore this one down i noticed the lower lateral rods had a slight bow to them. straight edge shows about a 1/16" bow. the uppers are straight. i have hit trees and bush's down at LS and that could be the case but both sides are the same. i have seen this on all of them and always the lower. the aluminum laterals were a bad idea though lol i tried it and it failed but.......yep learning curve lol i know you disagree with the rotational forces thought but i cannot deny what i have personally witnessed on my own rails.  at this point my only other option is to weld a pivot outside the frame on the rear and add a third point of pivot  to the uppers. may do it not sure yet i have a lot to get done yet. the next frame will be about 6" longer for these purposes.

spoke to fast this am....intersting to hear how many rails are running megasand trans down there let alone in his group. he actually said all the medi trans had been opened up but none of the megasand trans. have to wait for him to chime in explain that. sounds like the megasands are running turbo 2.5 suby's from out front with his " 400 hp tune"
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 26, 2017, 11:40:51 AM
ok excuse the pics. one is good the rest are blurry i didn't realize my greasy fingers had touched the lens on my cell camera. anyway i found a location that i liked for the shock. i read an interesting post that i actually had been reading up on so i went with the shock moved 2/3 the way out down the lower arm.  so here are a few pics of what i came up with using my 2.5 fox air 14" stroke shock.  at 30* down angle on fixed 930 cv's and only 1/16" axle plunge throuha tested 24" wheel travel. i measured 23.5" wheel travel at full bump which leaves me with 3" ground clearence to the lowest point of the bottom of my frame in the rear. my rear cradle is pitched down 3*. not that an approach angle is critical in the rear but it worked out that way. now the tire through a 23.5" stroke has a neg 2* camber pitch. again not a critical point for the rear imo only. i was actually shooting for 22" travel and 5" gc at bump but clearence to the frame dictated this location which is exactly 2/3 rd down my lower arm. when i build the next chassis it will bend in towards the back for better shock locations and prob go to shorter piggy back coil overs , external by pass and leverage them out farther and drop prob to 20" travel. at 2 to one a 10" stroke shock would work and a side note......the 2.5 air is apprx 3" longer than a 2.0 air or emulsion or coil over in a12" or 14" stroke shock. i don't know why its longer than its counter parts  i just know that it is after using them now. makes it a pain in the ass to get the fronts set just right. but hey i wanted to try them so i did. 2.5 is too much shock for the fronts for every one wondering lol i don't have the room upfront to leverage them out enough for that weight. so to compensate i actually removed 15ccs of oil from factory fill with 45/3-1 for valving and still rebounds to quickly for the woops in my fronts. another 10* to 15* lean in and i think i could get them tuned spot on.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 26, 2017, 11:49:20 AM
Like the shock positioning. Now figure out that upper arm........................... ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 26, 2017, 11:51:51 AM
at full bump my shock is sooooooo close to 90* to the lower arm i'm calling that good! i will put a limit strap on which will pull the wheel up 1" so that 30* will ease up a bit however i ran those fixed 930's at 35* the last 5 years. rcv rates them at 40* which i checked and they will go farther however after trying there plunging 930'S i'd say 10* under there spec is real world use  rofl rofl

i still don't understand how they can put one in the lathe and get it to spin at 30* but can't get a pair on a axle to spin at 25* or 26* by hand!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 26, 2017, 11:52:18 AM
Like the shock positioning. Now figure out that upper arm........................... ;D ;D

hey now i'm old and slow just give me time  ;D ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 28, 2017, 04:57:31 PM
ok so i ordered a digital inclinometer and checked two of my 3 mechanical ones. they are with in.5* of the digital one. i did send back the plunging 930 and asked them to check them as it is not incorrect installation nor over angling them. told them i sell a lot of a arm front end kits and guys swap out to 3x3 trailing arms with longer axles and i have always told them to buy theres but now i cannot do that anymore if an answer cannot be found as to why they don't go 28* as advertised when the cheap chinese $62 ones will go 26* for many many people. this is there response..





We have tested two CV joints before on a special machine in house and we have reached over 28 degrees. This is at a 0 degree horizontal plane with the CV joints offset 28 degrees. This is why we only check the angle on a lathe to ensure the CV joint is properly built and the tolerances are held. The cheaper CV joints have different tolerances than our products. Our CV joints are race prepped and polished to reduce heat so the components move more freely inside the housing. I believe when you test this at high angles by dry spinning the CV joint, the components shift because they are so smooth thus they may actually go over the maximum angle.

When they are in the vehicle at ride height they will not see these higher angles. When the suspension droops while driving the car the forward momentum also keeps the components inside the CV joint due to the RPM's. Once again if they are below 28 degrees they will be fine. If the angle manages to go over 28 degrees while driving the CV joint will bind and more than likely fail. Limit straps are used sometimes if higher angles are needed. Also, the use of a boot flange boot adapter will prevent the components from wanting to fall out. The only issue I see out of the systems is if you used an over boot CV boot and lifted the vehicle with the suspension drooping. With the high angle and no boot adapter you may see the components wanting to pull out. Typically the CV grease is enough to keep them stationary while lifting the vehicle. Also, depending on how smoothly the splines of the shaft move through the inner race, this can determine if the components are being forced out of the housing by the shaft.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 28, 2017, 04:58:45 PM
they sent me a video of them testing one in a lathe. doesn't look like 28* down angle but it's a video and it turns just fine they also said the first 6 i returned that they sent by accident turn just fine to so did i get the 4 bad ones out of the ten they sent or what????
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 28, 2017, 06:36:28 PM
ok so i ordered a digital inclinometer and checked two of my 3 mechanical ones. they are with in.5* of the digital one. Well,that is settled pretty much. Had to be ruled out.i did send back the plunging 930 and asked them to check them as it is not incorrect installation nor over angling them. told them i sell a lot of a arm front end kits and guys swap out to 3x3 trailing arms with longer axles and i have always told them to buy theres but now i cannot do that anymore if an answer cannot be found as to why they don't go 28* as advertised when the cheap chinese $62 ones will go 26* for many many people. Now you sound like me. Maybe you should have held off on that.  ;) ;Dthis is there response..





We have tested two CV joints before on a special machine in house and we have reached over 28 degrees. Was that testing done dry? Was it done with a boot flange as suggested below or with no boot flange? This is at a 0 degree horizontal plane with the CV joints offset 28 degrees. This is why we only check the angle on a lathe (How the hell do you set up a lathe with that much offset?)to ensure the CV joint is properly built and the tolerances are held. The cheaper CV joints have different tolerances than our products. Our CV joints are race prepped and polished to reduce heat so the components move more freely inside the housing. I believe when you test this at high angles by dry spinning the CV joint, the components shift because they are so smooth thus they may actually go over the maximum angle. Honestly ,I'm not buying that.

When they are in the vehicle at ride height they will not see these higher angles. Really????? BSWhen the suspension droops while driving the car the forward momentum also keeps the components inside the CV joint due to the RPM's.Possibly . Once again if they are below 28 degrees they will be fine. If the angle manages to go over 28 degrees while driving the CV joint will bind and more than likely fail. Duh!Limit straps are used sometimes if higher angles are needed. Also, the use of a boot flange boot adapter will prevent the components from wanting to fall out. Then that info should be plainly stated in the info about them.The only issue I see out of the systems is if you used an over boot CV boot and lifted the vehicle with the suspension drooping. With the high angle and no boot adapter you may see the components wanting to pull out.  Ummmm,I don't buy that either.Typically the CV grease is enough to keep them stationary while lifting the vehicle.  LMAO Also, depending on how smoothly the splines of the shaft move through the inner race, this can determine if the components are being forced out of the housing by the shaft.I can believe that.

Please let me know your thoughts. My thoughts are a LOT of covering their ass.
  Now with that said,I'd lube the things with cv grease and recheck everything with an open mind. If they still act like shit ,then I'd add the boot flange,as they suggest and see if it solves the issue.

WHat would/will be the ride height running angle?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on February 28, 2017, 06:37:55 PM
they sent me a video of them testing one in a lathe. doesn't look like 28* down angle but it's a video and it turns just fine they also said the first 6 i returned that they sent by accident turn just fine to so did i get the 4 bad ones out of the ten they sent or what????Pretty unlikely that is the case.
Can you post the vid? I'd love to see it.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 28, 2017, 09:05:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGa_IUIyvFY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGa_IUIyvFY&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on February 28, 2017, 09:07:40 PM
i didn't smear grease in them i sprayed wd40 and they were dripping with oil to begin with but i did not put the boot retainers on. that imo wouldn't have made a diff because they didn't roll until they jammed and that was at 26* and after over 16 hrs of messing with them in 4 days i gave up and swapped out for fixed.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on March 01, 2017, 05:27:02 AM
Boot retainers would keep balls in cv just as a jock strap would ya.  But it limit the angle as normally you can let the balls easy out just a bit.  I machined my boot flanges on fixed 930 to allow balls to roll out, otherwise fixed ones are limited to about 26* if I remember correct.

But your A-arm so fixed 930 and move on.  You don't need the plunge.  And you've already spent so much money on other shit the extra $$ don't count.  That's the way I explained extra to your wife, so your good. LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 01, 2017, 05:55:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGa_IUIyvFY&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGa_IUIyvFY&feature=youtu.be)
If that is 28*,I've a 12" dick. That vid is laughable and shows/proves nothing. I don't know what is going on but rcv's answer is lacking.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 01, 2017, 07:25:47 AM
already sent them back for fixed. if you look at the pic or videos of mine on a 28" axle at 27* .....sure looks like i have more angle than theres in the vid and looks like there using a 36" or longer axle which should amplify the view of the angle imo but idk . i still know that the ones i had won't go 28* and so if they get them back and say there fine then they are fudging #s and cannot do it! i know those 4 will not for a fact! they needed to show the angle with a gauge in there vid.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 01, 2017, 08:46:15 AM
Since RCV claims they will do 28* then they should do 28*-max. It seems to me only reasonable to assume they would be capable of doing the 28* without falling apart or binding. We ALL know that 930's CAN do 28*max regardless of brand , race prep or not but ,we also know that they cannot be ran at 28 * more than momentarily. 28* is the max but should probably be limited to 25* or so to be safe. That said,the vid can't be showing even 15*.

I have never had any problem with the RCV fixed cv that wasn't my fault. Only one failure in what,6-7 years now?  I also had complete POS slip joint axles from them that fell apart before I even ran the car. What I'm saying is that apparently RCV may be just like the rest of the aftermarket. Poor quality control and when caught at it,it's the customers fault and the smoke starts blowing up the customers ass. I am disappointed at rcv's response on this and the absolute BS vid showing nothing relevant to the issue.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 01, 2017, 11:01:03 AM
which is why i asked for a real reason these didn't do as advertised. i even suggested they buy some cheap chinese ones and compare. i told them i cannot suggest there cv's over the $62 cheapo's with out a legitimate reason why i could even get 26* to work by hand. i told them i sell a lot of front end kits that require customers to buy longer wider trailing arms, longer axles and new 930 cv's and have told many to buy rcv's and i have but i will not do that anymore unless they can give me a real answer that i can see tested true. am i a huge acct....nope but my front ends do as i state they do! there cv's should as well
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 01, 2017, 11:33:35 AM
Honestly,it is irrelevant how many you buy. If a customer only buys one and it doesn't meet  published specs , that customer deserves a real answer instead of some BS .
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 01, 2017, 01:07:40 PM
honestly the fixed will work out better in the end as i ran those at 35* peak for the last 5 years. limit strap pulled the wheel up 1" but as we all know even a quad woven strap will stretch 1" per foot. now i was going to set them at 27* with shock fully extended then pull up 2" with strap so when it finally stretched i would never max out. prob be 22* sitting still at that rate but now ..... ;D the hell with it i set them at 30* with shock and will pull up 2" with strap and prob be 26* at normal ride height. haven't decided yet on that one as i have had to stop to build a few more front ends.  i did look back and in the last 6 years i sold 48 front ends.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 05, 2017, 09:02:54 AM
ok so i was just going to see how much carl luck i had and run the upper as is but the more i looked at it...26" long arm center of heim to center of heim...... the 10" span at the frame just was't going to be enough. so 26x.65 = 16.9"  where in this config there is no room to go forward at this point i had to go rearward and did not make 16.9" but i did make 15.5". i'm going to call it good enough for now. i will make the lowers diff on the next frame.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 05, 2017, 09:03:43 AM
and yes the rearward point will be made into double shear.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 06, 2017, 09:22:47 AM
here is the drivers side. the last pic is of an idea to minimize lower but maintain forward connection point.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 06, 2017, 07:42:50 PM
Is there no way to do something lie this? Drop the forward tabs below the tube ,angled inboard to line up? Looks like enough room in front of starter to do it.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2017, 10:56:23 AM
absolutely in no way is there enough room in front of or around the starter to get the tab lined up down the center of the cv. i have stared at it for hrs holding tabs up in diff configs useing all thread. the only poss way would be to move the tabs out 2" or so then match that at the wheel in the carrier but axle plunge would be effected, how much? who knows......i could do the drivers side this way only too. since i am building another frame will experiment with that later but this one will do just fine until then.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2017, 12:34:39 PM
 i have an extra carrier i will have to use to mock that idea up and play with it when i get more time for this coming winters build. it is an interesting idea to see how much plunge one would get......i'm still thinking if properly done really shouldn't be much more than now. also if one were to put say idk 5* rake in the cradle or a arm mounting points like an approach angle and set the axle straight out off trans so that the 5* would sweep the axle back a small amount through the stroke one could compensate for axle plunge if any at that offset of frame vs carrier
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2017, 12:38:36 PM
Got ya thinking now!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2017, 12:41:21 PM
If I had time I'd CAD it up for you and see how much plunge would be induced. My gut CAD says it would be very minimal.Maybe 1/2 inch but I could be very ,very wrong.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2017, 02:25:46 PM
normally i would make that change on both sides but maybe not. believe it or not i have a cad program. even took a class or two in college for it. only student to get an A in the class of 17 people. could`nt do a single thing they taught us after the class cause it was either learn the book or material. they covered it way to fast with no program of our own to learn outside of class. i was 3 of 17 that had no prior experience.  14 were already using it for work. so i could draw it in cad myself......not going to lol it`s faster and easier for me to build it and test it. i would be happy to post the info if someone wanted to though.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2017, 03:10:28 PM
on a side note dunebound stopped and showed me how and why the rcv cv's arent' capable of 28* as advertised and how to fix them. he'll need to include pics and explain this himself but basically the cage is too large for there housings. he and transman and malcolm all went together and bought a pile of high angle cv's from them. none of them can get over i belive 26* and dunebounds have always clicked at that angle. so the race prepped high angle lightened ones he bought from pacific customs 12 years ago or so have now i belive recieved .003 smaller balls and chromolly cages. they do operate at 28*. he clearenced the rcv's and i bolted them on my rail last night and they will operate at 28* now. still need a slight bit more polishing.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2017, 05:58:13 PM
How long are the arms now? What is the vertical spread of the frame pivots and the carrier pivots?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2017, 10:00:21 PM
carrier, center to center....up and down is 8.25".... side to side on center of heims is 5"

upper and lower arms are 26" straight out from the frame, center of pivot to center of pivot. they all pivot on the same line. i ran all thread with steel spacers through all the heims before tacking tabs on the frame for both upper and lower. with drilled plates with the 8.25" spacing to keep them spaced evenly end for end to match the carrier.

total spread of upper at the frame is 15.5" and 5" at carrier. lower total spread is 34" at frame and 5" at carrier. now i bet you can addt he spread at the frame the way you want and it wouldn't matter. both upper and lower pivot in the center of the cv right now with 1/4" greaser spacers. but that doesn't matter either if your drawing center lines.

i doubt it would make a big diff but if one was to narrow the up and down pivots at the frame from  8.25" to 8" or 7.75" and leave the carrier 8.25" it would induce neg camber with same length arms. prob only -2 to -3* .
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 13, 2017, 06:24:21 PM
some progress
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Dunebound69 on March 16, 2017, 12:55:43 PM
After having to take a hammer to one cv to get it apart needless to say I was pissed. I will post pictures of what i'm doing. My old lightened ones with operate at 30 degrees now with just a little catch. The angle is there you just have to hold your tongue right plus grind the shit out of the new fxxkers.

The inner cage has no clearance with the outer. I really did have to use a hammer to get it apart. I spent over an hour on the drum sander widening the outer cage. I still need to take more out. The star need work too. It is hitting the retaining flange to. I'm shooting for able to do 30 degrees but hold them back to 27. My car doesn't ride where that would be a constant.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 19, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
dunebound is working on his rail and making some progress but he took time out to show me the cv's. the cv's he's talking about are the rcv high angle plunging 930's that i couldn't get to go even 26* with out binding. now after seeing his 14 year old lightened 930's from pacific customs that do go 27* from day one till now and comparing them to rcv's .......ya you can see the problem. like dunebound said the inner cage is to large for the outter housing. when it pivots it actually is what starts to bind on the outter housing past a certain angle. he clearenced the outter for the inner and i bolted in on mine and checked them they operate right now or that one does. i have not told rcv and prob won't as i doubt they change anything or even believe me.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 19, 2017, 10:28:43 AM
I'd talk to rcv . Who have you talked to there? It's really BS how so many aftermarket mfg's just don't care. I thought RCV was different. On the other hand...............remember the slip joint axle fiasco I had with RCV?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on March 19, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
I could not be happier with mine. I set mine at 25 or 26 so the limit straps could stretch. No clicking or any binding.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 19, 2017, 04:00:03 PM
i went back to fixed for 30* max angle. i ran them at 35* max angle for the last 5 years with no issues. so we'll see.  i just went ahead and mounted in above the radiator. when i build the next frame i am going to stretch it 6" longer and i will buy a wider radiator so i can mount the innercooler in front of it as i wanted to. i do like the suby location too though.

fabbr i do remember all the trouble you had with them on the axles. i have never but can understand after this one!

punkur i am glad you are happy with your cv's i would like to think your one of many but have my doubts after this last batch they claim operate fine at 30* in there video. in that video they appear to be 15*! imo
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 19, 2017, 04:02:34 PM
my rear view is worthless now but it works and gets plenty of air. i'll make a shroud for it and put a fan on it too. on the next one i will be making a fuel cell that mounts down in the frame like saddle bags. then the radiator and innercooler can be paired and moved back away from the motor. no room in  front of the radiator now and the inner cooler is the same width so it interferes with the inlet outlet necks.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 28, 2017, 02:15:04 PM
well re assembly has begun. got the motor back to now just have to assemble it. i will as soon as i get the rail back on it's wheels. went from he 1100 paddle to 1450's and from 6.75 single razors to 8.80 triples
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 28, 2017, 02:15:44 PM
rear
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on March 29, 2017, 05:21:54 AM
you'll like them larger fronts in the chop, plus you got eps going in too?  Alright, quit screwing around with test rides in Enemy's ranger get her back together.  Test rides next weekend. LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on March 29, 2017, 06:34:01 AM
Looking good.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 29, 2017, 07:31:38 AM
you'll like them larger fronts in the chop, plus you got eps going in too?  Alright, quit screwing around with test rides in Enemy's ranger get her back together.  Test rides next weekend. LOL

ya well he installed the new efr turbo and i just had to see how that performed!!!  i am impressed both spool time and much much quieter turbo!

yes the eps is mounted
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on March 29, 2017, 07:32:15 AM
Looking good.

thanks and i know you still don't like the looks of my arms but hey they'll grow on you   ;D ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 08, 2017, 07:40:41 AM
getting closer
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 08, 2017, 08:32:58 AM
You'll definitely like the extra torque you'll have now.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on April 08, 2017, 09:02:00 AM
Looking good
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 08, 2017, 11:09:38 AM
indeed i will!!!! this should prove to a very fun power plant. so i took the fact dished piston 8-1 and raised it 1 point to a flat to cp piston 9-1 comp....stock sized valves but in ferra and ss, i believe he said 150 psi seat pressure closed. would have to look at the paperwork for sure. 5 angle grind or it appears from the rings of lube on the open valves. hot pinto turbo cam that is far superior to stock. went from 40 lift to 420 and slider to roller as well as longer duration on both intake and exh stock is intake 187 and exh 189 and engle cam is 222/218. all forged cp pistons and crower rods. rods are rated to 500 hp. all heat treated rod and crank/journal bearings. yes i did have him balance it ,,,no extra charge so why not. he said balanced to 9k rpm. pistons weight matched and rods balanced. crank,flywheel, pressure plate and crank pully balanced as well. ditching the dizzy or i should say converting it with a cas system which is a 24 tooth wheel in place of rotor for a crank signal to go seq fuel and ignition. ls coils and gm flex fuel sensor to run e85 fuel. so hope it works very well!!

thanks punkur
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: budlight69 on April 08, 2017, 11:27:48 AM
That is going to baddass.  And you're kicking booty getting it done! 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 09, 2017, 06:12:38 PM
You'll definitely like the extra torque you'll have now.


i also bought an oil pan with baffles for the motor. they used to offer a windage tray and a drop in baffle kit but they no longer as they offer oil pan with the baffle welded in now and no one and i mean no one builds the windage tray as esslinger sold and new owner discontinued. not sure the windage tray would be of use for my app but baffle cannot hurt
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 09, 2017, 07:53:47 PM
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Canton-Racing-11-900-2-3-Ford-Engine-Saver-Rear-Sump-Oil-Pan-Stock,30759.html (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Canton-Racing-11-900-2-3-Ford-Engine-Saver-Rear-Sump-Oil-Pan-Stock,30759.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on April 10, 2017, 07:29:04 AM
This build has been visually inspected and approved.  Looking great.

The garage not soooo much. LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 11, 2017, 09:58:53 AM
ya it def looks better in person. the garage well it exploded lol no time to clean when i'm trying to finish 4 parts of the rail at one time!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on April 11, 2017, 12:13:46 PM
Cleaning can be done when the job is done.  giggity
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 14, 2017, 07:02:38 AM
well enemy was nice enough to paint my engine block with some quality flat black paint last night so a thanks to enemy!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 14, 2017, 07:17:16 AM
There's some goofy looking monkey with blue birds in your shop. You need to keep your door shut. ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on April 14, 2017, 08:30:11 AM
Crazzzy effers will crawl in through the cat door.. Can't keep us out lol!

DS is doing a Jeckle/Hyde conversion on this car! It is a friggin monster. Can't wait to see it carve the dunes.
Nice job DS!

And now a nice flat engine finish to help locate all your oil leaks  ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 14, 2017, 10:46:35 AM
lol ya does look like two blue birds lol

thanks enemy i like the way it's turning out now i can bolt the engine in tonight and start on the intake and fuel system and cooling while i wait for turbo lab to ship me my turbo, i should say still wait holy crap there taking there time
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 17, 2017, 10:49:22 AM
well i got it in the chassis this weekend.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on April 17, 2017, 02:14:29 PM
looks like your making head way. fits in the car nice. needs more chrome  stuff on it. lol lol lol .
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 17, 2017, 03:14:12 PM
i have been fighting the urge to buy the chrome accessories for this engine lol lol  especially since i spent soooo much on the internals!

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on April 17, 2017, 03:34:00 PM
i have been fighting the urge to buy the chrome accessories for this engine lol lol  especially since i spent soooo much on the internals!
I ran a pinto 2.3, way back in the day in a Baja. one thing for sure. there not cheep to build. chrome don't make it go fast. just makes it look fast.  LMAO  beside. as fast as that thing is going to be. it will just be a blurr
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Lance-W on April 18, 2017, 05:49:39 PM
Skip the chrome - You need to buy a camera instead of using that phone.  Those pictures suck ! thumb down thumb down thumb down thumb down
You know we're all missing out on your awesome skills because you photos SUCK!!!   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on April 19, 2017, 05:56:26 AM
Skip the chrome - You need to buy a camera instead of using that phone.  Those pictures suck ! thumb down thumb down thumb down thumb down
You know we're all missing out on your awesome skills because you photos SUCK!!!   ;D ;D ;D

ROFLMAO!!

Prob lighting Lance.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 19, 2017, 06:21:28 AM
YA! That's it,bad lighting. LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 19, 2017, 08:24:05 AM
 LMAO LMAO rofl rofl    ya well all those pics in last bunch were at the same time. i moved to otherside of the rail and the light came through the window. otherwise yes they suck because i have gotten soooo much grease on the lens. i do need grab my actual camera and start using it.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 19, 2017, 02:36:25 PM
i decided i wanted the alternator on the pass side rather than drivers so it was closer to my batt and cleans up the intake side. so there were like a 4 year span of rangers that were just so. took some doing to find the ranger parts to do so but i did and it is a clean little set up. then a couple pics of the manifold and wastegate.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 19, 2017, 02:37:04 PM
and i had to get the whole pulley system as well as mount bracket and water pump  for a 94 ranger to make this work.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Lance-W on April 19, 2017, 03:26:13 PM
Very nice install and very close to the battery :)  How many amps does the alternator make.  That thing is huge!!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 19, 2017, 05:13:23 PM
130 amp alt. 1 wire....i was going to go 3 wire but the ecu isnt set up for that and this company assures me the wire wire reg is set to maintain 14 volt . the guys on the ford forums seem to have very good luck with these so for $20 more than a stock at the auto parts store i said lets try it. i can always change it later.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Lance-W on April 19, 2017, 05:27:49 PM
130 amp alt. 1 wire....i was going to go 3 wire but the ecu isnt set up for that and this company assures me the wire wire reg is set to maintain 14 volt . the guys on the ford forums seem to have very good luck with these so for $20 more than a stock at the auto parts store i said lets try it. i can always change it later.

130 is a bunch.  Sounds good.  If you have issues I've had several flawless parts from these folks.  https://www.dbelectrical.com/ (https://www.dbelectrical.com/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 19, 2017, 06:03:48 PM
i`ll have to give them a try. looks like they offer quite a bit and thanks for the link. i went that large as i will be running the 60 watt car to car\intercom system by rugged and the saturn vue eps system looks to pull 30 amp pretty continuous. factory uses a 50 amp fuse but internal thermal switch is rated for 45 amp. heated 02 sensors pull more than 1 thinks! also i`ll have 2 cooling fans 10 and 18 amp draw. and light, not to meantion this walbro 450 fuel pump says up to 22 amp peak draw. they told me it doesnt charge below 800 rpm. idle is basically that and rarely there. now enemys stock alt quits at 7k rpm btw  rofl rofl when you see his headlights dim at that rpm kind of a give away  rofl but what a ride in that ranger!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on April 20, 2017, 05:50:29 AM
Pretty slick!
Enemy's dimming headlight are just a more visual shift light.  Cant be looking at dash at 7K rpm and 35psi boost.................!

Much better pics, LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on April 21, 2017, 08:23:08 AM
Well an incorrect little baby pulley on a junkyard alternator does goofy shit somtimes... LMAO
Oh, and extreme wastegate heat right next to the regulator can do some funky stuff as well. DS's should have plenty of breathing room for his alternator!
My last regulator decided to dump 18 volts into the system before it puked... And killed/cooked/exploded the battery in the box. That was a fun evening.......
Have since remedied the issue  ;)
Pretty sure Brian took notice lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 23, 2017, 08:53:28 AM
ahhhhh brian couldn't take notice as i was tooooo busy trying to keep my head from hitting the back window everytime you power shifted!!!!!!!! ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 23, 2017, 08:57:07 AM
ok i do have to say that the new efr turbo enemy installed A. doesn't sound like a normal turbo,,,,hard to explain that one but waaaay quieter than normal. B. you can audibly track 0 psi and 6 psi from the pass seat which really helps when you trying to reduce whiplash from being stuffed into you seat when it goes from 5 psi to 20 psi in 2 seconds  rofl

that is one insane responsive turbo and so compact and quiet i can't get over how quiet that turbo is!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 23, 2017, 09:49:29 AM
ok i do have to say that the new efr turbo enemy installed A. doesn't sound like a normal turbo,,,,hard to explain that one but waaaay quieter than normal. B. you can audibly track 0 psi and 6 psi from the pass seat which really helps when you trying to reduce whiplash from being stuffed into you seat when it goes from 5 psi to 20 psi in 2 seconds  rofl

that is one insane responsive turbo and so compact and quiet i can't get over how quiet that turbo is!
That takes all the fun out of it!  ;D  Just kidding,when is the maiden dune trip?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 23, 2017, 08:23:31 PM
well i had hoped to have had it done already however my year didnt start off so good but i am picking up speed on assembly. still waiting on my turbo which according to ups tracking should be here wens.  i am hoping to hear it run in a couple weeks. i will make a quick 2 day run to LS to tune it at that time. i need it dune ready for st a after all lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 23, 2017, 09:15:09 PM
Let me know when.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 23, 2017, 10:07:27 PM
oh i plan on it as enemy will be tuning his new turbo busa engine as well and i would like to see that new rail of yours too!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 28, 2017, 02:50:39 PM
ok so ran into a snag. i finally got the turbo. looks good overall but it has two threaded holes and two thru holes. well the way the chinaman made the header you cannot use anything other than studs out of it.  that pos external waste gate attachment i bought even further complicated this issue. so i posted pics on stingers forum to hear from people with experience. stinger himself commented    "

The eBay link for the one you bought, it will crack on the first trip out. It's made in China and is thin wall. The price is the first hint that it's Chinese, there are a dozen or more other hints I won't bother listing." 

so i asked who builds good quality turbo header/manifolds for these engines. he only had 1 recommendation. a fella in indiana. contacted him and he def has some experience lol lol  so $350 plus shipping for a heavyier wall quality header with 38mm port for wg welded on and welded correctly. his will center the turbo back forward a couple inches wich will be good for my shocks. to re cap here are a couple pics of current china header. then pics he sent of what will be here in a week to 10 days.


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170418_223252_zpshyc0xg3h.jpg&hash=7646aa2a54b5f1a4394bff36514f251b) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170418_223252_zpshyc0xg3h.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170418_223248_zps84rwrpeq.jpg&hash=7acd86e618395a514756e454390cdd5b) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170418_223248_zps84rwrpeq.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20170122_112900_resized_zpsrbh2ghxl.jpg&hash=4c462dcfac7e70a3db731e26e893a37d) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20170122_112900_resized_zpsrbh2ghxl.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20170122_112916_resized_zps84q7nby1.jpg&hash=ce5d2ee97c7c7dfc94bb0a4d931e0fcb) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20170122_112916_resized_zps84q7nby1.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_2037_resized_zpsioyh3ycm.jpg&hash=8ffc29b589341b0a1bb113b240f4cb15) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_2037_resized_zpsioyh3ycm.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20170122_112935_resized_zpsitsz4yms.jpg&hash=3994f2ca42dd1e8817d492a7996015b1) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20170122_112935_resized_zpsitsz4yms.jpg.html)




and an optional top mount header he makes as well but this one is $550 plus shipping. the chinese versions are $150 to $200 and crack quite a bit depending on set up.



(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20161005_112711_zpsdowktihv.jpg&hash=aa3722e68ff39270f7307df6e5b71587) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20161005_112711_zpsdowktihv.jpg.html)



 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 28, 2017, 02:58:24 PM
and just to be clear.....i did not know nor could i find anyone in posts or searchs on these ford 2.3 forums of guys making turbo headers or i would've bought one long before ebay!   i even considered drilling out the the t3 flange on the turbo on the top two holes but not enough room to get a nut on the one hole and damn sure not enough room for a wrench. well i could grind a little clearance spot but don't really want to. plus that wg bolt on box just had me worried looking at it bolted on.  here's a few more pics

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170426_174418_zpstcknnbwz.jpg&hash=efefe5194550b66bdb3e86e6698ebc9c) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170426_174418_zpstcknnbwz.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170426_174710_zpsptsijyxk.jpg&hash=1fa273efb14998282c73c62f6366e4e4) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170426_174710_zpsptsijyxk.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170426_174305_zpsq6wu9yee.jpg&hash=c24dc010f43ab6b26ea4358f33463b61) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170426_174305_zpsq6wu9yee.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170426_173622_zpsvk5jedbr.jpg&hash=50253e710c8481ee4b3072cc4a94e2c4) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170426_173622_zpsvk5jedbr.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on April 28, 2017, 03:14:40 PM
i  included the 3rd pic above in prev post just for lancew  rofl rofl


the china header is not surfaced either, randy from indiana does surface his before they ship! 

so for anyone wondering.....yes that is a holset turbo. it's a hybrid made for me by ian at turbo lab.  he claims that it spools faster than the t3 t4 turbo netics enemy had and now i have heard that same statement from 2 others that have ran the hy35 holset stock on there 2.3's so i have high hopes. mine is not stock it is an open scroll t3 hy35 (i believe) 9cm exh housing which is the smallest they made on the early cummins diesel trucks. then machined out for a 58mm by 70mm wheel .65 a/r.....hx35 comp housing i believe machined out for a billet extended tip 5x5 blade 54mm by 78mm which is 52 trim.  set up to spool a lot faster than stock. so i have high hopes,,,i guess lol


   (https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170425_103512_zpsfnidsvfl.jpg&hash=f40bde74b2d223390a91e13bceb9d831) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170425_103512_zpsfnidsvfl.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170426_174710_zpsptsijyxk.jpg&hash=1fa273efb14998282c73c62f6366e4e4) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170426_174710_zpsptsijyxk.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170425_103420_zpsx5lwoxzg.jpg&hash=d5aed0c92c9e9b05c66d787168c09430) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170425_103420_zpsx5lwoxzg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on April 29, 2017, 08:01:39 AM
night and day difference in the headers, love the look of the new one as well.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on April 29, 2017, 11:37:34 AM
AGREE!!! The new one just looks fast!.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on April 29, 2017, 01:17:46 PM
That's a damn nice header! I may have to give that sir a call, will see how long my last header repair lasts lol
Nice to see you got the grease smudge off yer camera lens  ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on April 29, 2017, 01:23:32 PM
And using a massive WG tube! Excellent ... a big FAIL on the header I bought, and why I deleted the external gate and went internal. Couldn't control boost worth a shit after 25psi... and kept cracking from the weight of its self on the thin wall garbage they used in mine..
 Your turbo is cute too btw  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on May 01, 2017, 05:53:34 AM
Turbo looking good!!
New header is looking good, real good.  This pic had me rolling.  Sexy.
LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on May 11, 2017, 07:33:31 AM
thought this was interesting......this guy also makes a log style header that still flows better than stock manifold lol 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on May 25, 2017, 10:16:18 AM
well i have been working on the rail...almost 3 weeks but only a few hrs a night but still! just on the wiring. now i had to strip all of it out of the rail. so this is a complete start over. i ordered a ron francis harness and i really like it. decided to route the wiring in the wing trunk so had to cut that harness open and re route 50% of it. also got rid of the dizzy and replaced it with a crank gear in the dizzy housing. i'll have to take pics of that at some point and post them.

all new console, new gauges, new front lights, new top lights, new engine! now everything except the 2g batt cable is fused with a relay as well! including the 2 dome lights i installed too lol


saw the sand blasting on my batt box. had no idea the spray was coming up this high up into the engine compartment.


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170519_211013_zpsjli5w0vh.jpg&hash=69dd964fba363148a0ce3802083c613c) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170519_211013_zpsjli5w0vh.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170519_211319_zpsgmpjp56s.jpg&hash=594444ffb75c8e083851ebbc19c98d63) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170519_211319_zpsgmpjp56s.jpg.html)



decided to go walbro 450lph pump so had to re do or figure out how to make that pump fit the busa head since for now i need to re use my tank but just for now. i have an idea for a diff location that requires a custom tank if i keep this frame. and at the cost of that submersible e85 safe fuel line i got with some 3/8" galvanized brake line with a double flare. that gates hose is expensive $22 per foot! pn#27097

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170504_200826_zpsjcxlzada.jpg&hash=18a668a9efc93adc37eeb52df603e6c5) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170504_200826_zpsjcxlzada.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170505_210645_zpsucawwwdv.jpg&hash=c571f34b3b3034fc62e7875bbd075bce) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170505_210645_zpsucawwwdv.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170503_134416_zpszvb4ipci.jpg&hash=f76103becd2d2e811677d48d876ad2ec) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170503_134416_zpszvb4ipci.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170503_140845_zpselfwpmnb.jpg&hash=f2e733db003984011d073d0f1478f752) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170503_140845_zpselfwpmnb.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170505_212207_zpsqvt3qtwp.jpg&hash=0dc112f5941ae2a25d184de7653db55f) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170505_212207_zpsqvt3qtwp.jpg.html)

also discovered my intake was too tight to my radiator for my taste so i had to rotate it and re route intake tube to innercooler.

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170502_221409_zpsbbxwws7y.jpg&hash=628ebb43f2767d84dcb576f2366a0832) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170502_221409_zpsbbxwws7y.jpg.html)

here is the wiring in the wing trunk.....the ecu is on the left and above it is a cpu 12 v fan to help lol

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170519_211026_zpsgux9z7ap.jpg&hash=8d20b82ee983e271890cea86b1ef71f8) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170519_211026_zpsgux9z7ap.jpg.html)


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170524_210016_zpsgf0rzeq2.jpg&hash=4c5f08358a6791352a4766c32495d862) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170524_210016_zpsgf0rzeq2.jpg.html)

new console

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170502_221155_zpsqmvygizk.jpg&hash=3c4164902b77aea5be6ea6674d407a5b) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170502_221155_zpsqmvygizk.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170502_221146_zpsvwhoxac5.jpg&hash=b35bc86e3ba489070ccd249deb6e1074) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170502_221146_zpsvwhoxac5.jpg.html)

here's my cam card

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170511_214504_zpsnuk3qfsy.jpg&hash=e3eb835ea3d02fd3ef5c5922c80abf5e) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170511_214504_zpsnuk3qfsy.jpg.html)

also haven't got my new header yet...been waiting a while now


Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on May 25, 2017, 02:09:15 PM
Its coming along.

Just one question, ROCKER SWITCHES!!!! LOL
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on May 25, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
yep i like them lol and they light up....top and bottom  rofl
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on May 25, 2017, 02:48:30 PM
submersible fuel line that says e85 safe. we'll find out


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_20170503_220417_zpsfmudi0nw.jpg&hash=3df251b949cb1244a477ef9c7c883e5e) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_20170503_220417_zpsfmudi0nw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on May 26, 2017, 08:33:26 AM
Its coming along.

Just one question, ROCKER SWITCHES!!!! LOL
I bet they were the first thing you noticed. It was for me!!  LMAO
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on May 26, 2017, 08:58:12 AM
 ;D  never been a big fan of rocker switch's due to size and other thing but saw these and well yep  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 06, 2017, 07:53:38 PM
well one month of waiting for nothing! my header hasn't shown and what he built isn't what i purchased nor will it work and he won't change it. in fact he quit responding to text, won't answer his phone but instead just sent a refund. here is the mazda rx7 style as he calls and what i purchased. the turbo in the pic is a 60 series so sizeable larger than mine and you can see the top of the turbo would've been even with the valve cover gasket roughly.


(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20170122_112900_resized_zpsrbh2ghxl.jpg&hash=4c462dcfac7e70a3db731e26e893a37d) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20170122_112900_resized_zpsrbh2ghxl.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_20170122_112916_resized_zps84q7nby1.jpg&hash=ce5d2ee97c7c7dfc94bb0a4d931e0fcb) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_20170122_112916_resized_zps84q7nby1.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_2037_resized_zpsioyh3ycm.jpg&hash=8ffc29b589341b0a1bb113b240f4cb15) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_2037_resized_zpsioyh3ycm.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG_2006_resized_zpsk4macpfn.jpg&hash=16dcb51dd61da72dbf780dfc71fd6170) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG_2006_resized_zpsk4macpfn.jpg.html)


this is what he sent in pics that is supposed to be my header. not going to work. to high and wg port is in the wrong location. when i said if he cuts and caps the wg port then ship it and i'll see what i can do to cut it down. i only offered because it looks like a quality build and he used sched 10 ss vs the paper thin stuff the china headers come in. but not going to happen i guess the guy is a flake and doesn't want to build anymore. it would sit right above the valve cover right behind my wifes head and i cannot have that. the wastegate makes a tight location even tighter in fact impossible starting from up that high with radiator leaning in and innercooler above it.

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fa002_zps2ccyj0ls.jpg&hash=cf92fc378f3413689c858f328dbf24fa) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/a002_zps2ccyj0ls.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fa004_zps0sca87vo.jpg&hash=cb6a5c5eeb4030c1f7db18ea35aa87cf) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/a004_zps0sca87vo.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fa005_zps1scudokg.jpg&hash=e106a93c31e9d934ca6cc7a120783934) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/a005_zps1scudokg.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fa003_zpsdszjbggw.jpg&hash=d46870a34390bac5f550efe3aa0132f6) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/a003_zpsdszjbggw.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fa001_zpskhpjxitf.jpg&hash=a8d7c3c807f26b02e643cd51e87c7691) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/a001_zpskhpjxitf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 06, 2017, 08:26:14 PM
But it IS purdy........................You mean he refunded your money and let you keep the thing?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 06, 2017, 09:12:51 PM
lol it is purdy but no i never got it. one month of waiting and it's been one month as i checked tonight since i paid though pay pal. actually 6 weeks from when i called but one month from when i paid after he said ok the flanges should've shipped.

purdy doesn't get the correct header built nor the wg port in the correct location and he had built a lot of turbo headers he should've know that was the wrong location especially on my build after all the pics with measurements i sent!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Lance-W on June 06, 2017, 09:58:27 PM
Just make your own. Stainless isn't that hard to weld just make sure it's crazy clean. TIG it, MIG it they both work, although TIG is better.  Have Doug make the flanges an buy a bunch of present tube and start slicing and fitting.  The better you fit the pieces the better it turns out.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on June 07, 2017, 05:39:55 AM
Jeez!  I can see where he used a straighter tube outta exh flange raising whole setup up, but where you wanting wg port going forward toward seats?  Or turned down.  But I can see that big ass filter being behind her head, 15 min she'd be done!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 07, 2017, 06:10:19 AM
looking like i'm going to have to build one lance and don't own a tig just borrowed jons to build my busa turbo exh. but i will have to break down and buy one i guess.

carl the wg port should've been on the side the batt is on which i call he back side of the collector. it would've been touching the wheel liner in a ranger pick up but he knows it's not in a pick up but rather my rail
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on June 07, 2017, 06:30:57 AM
That's a bummer. that's all I have to say about that. with your skills it should be no problem making one. but dam all that time.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 07, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
What size is the tube in the flange?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 07, 2017, 09:48:28 AM
What size is the tube in the flange?
[/quote)

not sure and iall have to check.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 07, 2017, 09:51:56 AM
What size is the tube in the flange?
[/quote)

not sure and iall have to check.

not sure why that happens sometimes lol but i can measure od of the tube or id of stock manifold. i do not have time at this point before st a trip to build one myself. not with everything else i have yet to do including the rail! so the china header will get run and re welded as needed for now. i did pm another guy that used to build them and has started building them again last year.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 08, 2017, 04:01:54 PM
so found another guy in oregon that is willing ( so far) to make a ss turbo header for my app. i sent him a lot of pic and measurements last night and he said ya no problem. he does't understand why randy changed his design on me then refused to fix it or make it right but none the less we'll see. he said couple weeks and it should ship. now i know a log header isn't preferable but i have decided to go this route for now. just with a diff twist.......not a standard style log header and they will be stronger and less prone to crack than the others which is what i want. plenty of documented builds making 500 hp with a stock iron manifold.
 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on June 08, 2017, 06:09:07 PM
its a turbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. short, long, log, stock, square, when it hit's with 50 psi of boost it wont make a tin shi$$ its going to pack the cyl"s and kick a$$. don't swet the small stuff.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 08, 2017, 06:43:07 PM
lol and thanks. not sure it will take 50 psi but boy would that be fun!  just need everything to fit where i want it as this powerplant may find a new home in a diff frame at some point maybe  ;) ;)  i liked the other header however stronger is always better so you answered my next two questions lol. i am going to buy a tig later this summer so i can build things like this myself cause no matter what ......and we all know this.....we just have to build ourselves! i was just trying to get a break on time.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Lance-W on June 08, 2017, 07:15:14 PM
its a turbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. short, long, log, stock, square, when it hit's with 50 psi of boost it wont make a tin shi$$ its going to pack the cyl's and kick a$$. don't sweat the small stuff.

How true!!!!!!  LMAO rofl LMAO rofl LMAO
It's all about pressure and more is better.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 08, 2017, 07:20:30 PM
its a turbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. short, long, log, stock, square, when it hit's with 50 psi of boost it wont make a tin shi$$ its going to pack the cyl"s and kick a$$. don't swet the small stuff.
Bingo!!  You're not drag racing looking for that last 10th.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 08, 2017, 07:50:20 PM
true as i will be limited to 35 psi only
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fastcorvairs on June 08, 2017, 07:59:16 PM
lol and thanks. not sure it will take 50 psi but boy would that be fun!  just need everything to fit where i want it as this powerplant may find a new home in a diff frame at some point maybe  ;) ;)  i liked the other header however stronger is always better so you answered my next two questions lol. i am going to buy a tig later this summer so i can build things like this myself cause no matter what ......and we all know this.....we just have to build ourselves! i was just trying to get a break on time.

Get with Jerry (SandSaviour) He just bought a very nice tig that here carries in the trailer.  We used it several time's in Yuma last winter and it worked great. He welded a half inch piece of steel with ease, and lot's of aluminum wheels. And the best part it was not that expensive.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 09, 2017, 06:38:47 AM
will do thanks
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 11, 2017, 06:33:41 AM
well found a guy that builds headers for the 2.3. he's in oregon and said he will build that log style header properly, $425 shipped. says he hopes to have it shipped in 2 weeks. i need the time saver for this project but still plan on buying a tig, i know i can borrow enemies again but i should have one. fast....i did contact jerry and he said he would look to see make and model on his.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 19, 2017, 09:03:36 AM
well pretty much just waiting on a header to fire the motor off so in the mean time enemys needs 2 braces added.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on June 19, 2017, 12:33:49 PM
Crap someone got his busa!!  LOL.

Hold on Jeffco, meet super busa.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 19, 2017, 12:37:16 PM
That will not be a marriage made in heaven.......................
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 19, 2017, 02:32:39 PM
lets just say i'm not expecting miracles on the jeffco with full boost coming from that built busa but enemy knows what he can and can't do so it will be interesting to see how he sets it up. given it's track record..... ;) yep
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 20, 2017, 06:17:38 AM
so just some pics. i am using the microsquirt pnp ecu from stinger performance. they chose to use a db expansion port inside and most appear to use a plug that requires soldering he wires to tiny leads then the wires just hang out the hole in the back. i was searching for something i could easily disconnect to get the ecu out if needed. so i found this little black box that  enclosed, uses screws to secure the wires and is easily removed from the ecu. opening the casing just a tiny bit more was the only mod and it is a 26 pin connector were the db25 is on ly 25. the 26th pin on this connector is a ground so since the casing isn't grounded anymore thr0ugh the body i used that pin to ground it. it is held in by velcro , very strong velcro.

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd2_zpsbsbbx8k1.jpg&hash=e7810c8ff993716a60c22359dac583d6) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d2_zpsbsbbx8k1.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd3_zpsjtoswjbp.jpg&hash=4237d8d3ef1bfa61b88636533a91717e) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d3_zpsjtoswjbp.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd1_zpsjjazf74s.jpg&hash=bc7f98b5e18b62757eef63e702e773d6) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d1_zpsjjazf74s.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd5_zpsqgljsvrv.jpg&hash=63ac11a20eb619548d79bc21afb55860) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d5_zpsqgljsvrv.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd9_zpsh0ae9aws.jpg&hash=ca0915d892aa9bad29ad9d40e93df02d) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d9_zpsh0ae9aws.jpg.html)

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fd7_zpsmvalvl9s.jpg&hash=a0a6d3ce04bd290d611eb4264608c38b) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/d7_zpsmvalvl9s.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 20, 2017, 08:25:07 AM
What amazes me is how many still use antiquated connectors.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 20, 2017, 09:35:51 AM
oh i agree and they have made changes to the latest model the xs model. thats $1k now and i picked this one up for $500 so i`m not complaining but its not that old!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 21, 2017, 03:45:26 PM
old outdated connector or not the nice thing is it gives me a direct plug in for canbus communication. this is great as i bought this gauge  http://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/54-universal-gauge.html there is a video on his site. with this gauge through canbus connection i can view live data. the only thing i cannot view through ecu is oil psi as the ecu doesn't receive feedback from sensor. but there are 3 analog inputs for the gauge so i added oil psi. i can set safetys for all parameters. but i can view 4 sensors at once and split the led's into 4 quarters so i can use the led's a a visual gauge with the display if i need to look closer plus when the safety parameter is met the full cirlce of led will flash red or whatever i select, and display what is out of range. i looked at what 4 individual gauges cost me for afr, oil psi, water coolant and boost or ethanol content gauge for flex fuel sensor.....the gauge was cheaper and more useful!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 21, 2017, 05:19:14 PM
cool!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 22, 2017, 07:31:36 PM
i turned the wing trunk into the electrical box. also had to flip the intake so i hope the boot never blows off lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on June 22, 2017, 08:48:02 PM
well done but I expect no less from you.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on June 23, 2017, 05:14:50 AM
Very nice! Slap some dirt tires on there before test drive thru field, and GoPro.

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 24, 2017, 09:38:33 PM
i did buy some A/T tires and with a little luck my header will show this week. then i can finish it up and fire it up! finally!

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2F00a_zpsrrzzqeg9.jpg&hash=d8aa3bf768a44b9ccd78043b1baaad57) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/00a_zpsrrzzqeg9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 25, 2017, 07:42:19 AM
well here is a few pics of the log style header oemmotorsports built for me. he rolled the 3 flange over 15* to aim the turbo down to drop it a couple inches. should have over 5 " drop for oil return still and wg port is in a better location. not what i wanted to but prob stronger for the weight of the holset turbo. i will still be able to make a cover in that corner to dull the noise from the turbo right behind my wifes head rest. he also moved the t3 flange forward 2" so i have plenty of room for dp which places the #3 cyl runner directly into the flange. luckily i am seq fuel injection now so i can atleast check runner temps and adjust #3 if it causes a lean burn. really not sure if it will effect it or not but a thought anyway.

(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi218.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc317%2Fdsrace%2Fthumbnail_IMG952017062195211926305_zpsemcqhzkh.jpg&hash=7088e07161bf08e3660139633dea2232) (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/thumbnail_IMG952017062195211926305_zpsemcqhzkh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on June 25, 2017, 08:55:10 AM
i like to think this is enemy's goal with his turbo ranger build and feels like he's there with the new efr turbo lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TwpbXe9ZKI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TwpbXe9ZKI)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on June 25, 2017, 11:53:30 AM
Damn that Ranger is getting it done! Looks like a Twin-I Beam landing on the earlier launch LOL.. Maybe someday for mine... I decided to give up on the eBay T-5, it just chucked its guts on a full boost 2-3 shift the other eve, limped it home 9 miles.. had to get in the back seat and kickk it out of reverse gear to move it yesterday lol.. I put 10,000 hard miles on it so fell I got my moneys worth lol. Road race prepped TKO600 will be taking it's place shortly!
The new log header is perfect location and built to handle much abuse, that guy does as nice of work as the first flake you were dealing with. Your car looks like a monster sitting next to mine in your garage! Awesome job man!!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 04, 2017, 08:40:14 PM
got the turbo end all assembled. now time to strip and run up to omaha for thermal coating.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 04, 2017, 08:43:39 PM
exh down pipe with external wastegate dump
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 04, 2017, 08:46:18 PM
pic
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on July 04, 2017, 09:42:18 PM
Nice. I can't wait to see her run!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 05, 2017, 06:11:04 AM
You've really committed yourself to this project!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 09:56:28 AM
You've really committed yourself to this project!

yes i have.......i have the tube and material for another chassis however, i am running out of time and have a crap ton of things that need done at home, to my truck and th'er so i am trying to do everything so it works the most effecient and coolest since it will have to be it for a couple years probably  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 09:57:24 AM
Nice. I can't wait to see her run!

hell i'll settle for hear it run  rofl  but yes even more fun to run it finally! never had one take me this long ever! not even my first one
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 10:17:50 AM
built a crank case breather box. divided inside as seen in one pic. that one pic is my failed attempt at learning how to use my new tig lol stuffed lower half of box with ss scour pad for a baffle the vapory oil can kling to. 2 ports for block and valve cover and 1 port for intake, 3/16" id hose for that. filter on top has a 5\8" id inlet.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 10:20:37 AM
box
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
box
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 05, 2017, 10:29:19 AM
sorry guys but it wonat let me upload more than 1 at a time from my phone.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 11, 2017, 08:27:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1-G8zzl7s&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1-G8zzl7s&feature=youtu.be)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1-G8zzl7s&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1-G8zzl7s&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on July 12, 2017, 09:42:49 PM
How did you do the in tank fuel pump? Is that an off the shelf pump of a custom flange setup?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 13, 2017, 07:36:40 AM
that is the tank i made when i built the rail. now i used the busa pump head and used a 1" thick piece of aluminum ....drilled a pilot hole with a hole saw then dropped the pump head\body in so i could transfer bolt pattern then drilled and tapped. welded aluminum block to tank. now there are several models of cars with top mount pump heads and i would pre fer that as it would be submerged all the time. 03 kia sorento pump head is a 6 bolt flange and top side mounted with sender. thats just 1 example. they all very in depth so that may make a diff. but i will tell you that you have to listen hard to hear the pump run with a full tank!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 13, 2017, 07:46:23 AM
refresh my tired old memory. Whose yellow rail?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 13, 2017, 08:14:33 AM
its the one doug bought from scott smith. scott was driving it at st a last time we were there and let me drive which was the deciding factor to go turbo 2.3 in mine
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 13, 2017, 08:18:58 AM
How did you do the in tank fuel pump? Is that an off the shelf pump of a custom flange setup?

that place fast had make his also sells spun round tanks and they offer a 6 bolt plate on there site. might call and see what that fits. auto pump bodies are easy to convert to the larger pumps. busa body.....the ae 320 lph is the largest i could fit in it with out completely gutting for the two upright hangers. it all works though.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 13, 2017, 12:21:50 PM
https://www.spunaluminumgastanks.com/ (https://www.spunaluminumgastanks.com/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 16, 2017, 02:57:17 PM
 well got it to fire....enemy had a real head scratcher and still plenty of questions. it's runs and idles but still can't verify if the wiring for inj's in correct order. once enemy updated the firmware in the ecu to ms2 3.4 he lost the function to pulse the inj's to verify they work and placement. might have 2 swapped don't know. it idles and has really good throttle response free revving. did not take it for a run as i have 4 mechanical issues to address. darn an8 fuel fittings are leaking past o rings on flex fuel sensor. also factory idle screw is crap so have to pull tb and drill it out to tap for a better and bigger one lol need to re route oil feed line for turbo as wg head gets hot!  i poured 4 qts of oil in the trans....it has been leaking out the breather tube on the back so i knew it would lose a little more once started so i guess 3.5 qts is prob max in this trans, i'll have to drain a little. def louder than i had hoped but then again the he351 turbine housing has a large exh port and the 4" od 24" long down pipe doesn't help.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: big dave on July 17, 2017, 12:54:17 PM
great hear you got it fired off. let the fun begin.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 17, 2017, 01:57:21 PM
ithanks ...iam not sure whos more excided to drive it... i or enemy rofl  we`ll find out tonight.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on July 18, 2017, 05:46:35 AM
ithanks ...iam not sure whos more excided to drive it... i or enemy rofl  we`ll find out tonight.

Ok its Am were up with coffee!  Whats the scoop, and wheres the video?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 09:18:55 AM
 giggitydef great to finally drive it! has more that needs to be done though. a few bugs but did not figure out why the inj pulse function is locked out. has awesome throttle response up until the last pass then it cut in and out at 5500 to 5600 rpm according to my tach. it felt like it was cutting fuel like it was doing when it went real rich at 6600 rpm 4 times before that run.  doesnt take much throttle input, if you ease into it slowly to get up to that rpm . did this so enemy could watch fuel map and adjust..... got it up to 6600 rpm and about 1\2 throttle. def more weight on front now and thats good. eps is incredible! i like the tq of the motor and once the ecu or map is figured out should be rock solid. hit 18 psi boost at 6600 rpm and never once stuffed the throttle trying to boost up. got fuel leak fixed but trans puked a qt out maybey less. lost throttle response when it started cutting at 5500 to 5600. comparing tach to tuner studio vr tach i look to be 50 rpm high but very hard to tell with a huge lobe in cam.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 09:30:31 AM
its loud also.....as in it sounds like an old john deere B tractor! lol needs  deep 1st .   i have the megasand 3 speed trans. so i guess they dropped first and widened last 3 gears but they didnt bring the ratios down closer. so the 430 r&p and only gear ratio for 2nd thru 3rd megasan offered in swing, irs ebox and such. don`t know those ratios but have them written down. i put 4qts oil in trans. prev owner says thats what he did. no way this trans holds 4 qt. had to lay it flat on its side to get all 4qts in! the internals are all good on the engine. the tuning is underway and enemy is coming back thurs night prob.   
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 10:42:43 AM
a 4.86 r&p would be right on the money in this trans for this engine imo. again will take some getting used too for now. i do like the engine and its responsivness. will be a lot of fun once its all rung out but at this point its not even ready for a run to LS
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
i do have to say thanks to enemy for working on this as this is waaaay out of my leaugeq this is a problem for programmers lol. what i thought i was buying from stinger as plug and play is waaay off from plug and play. now come to find out, after talking to the guy that sets the ecu`s up, the 3rd gen pimp xs is the only true plug and play with there harness. when i purchased all the parts as a set, stinger knew what i was buying and what ecu i was going to use. i said i wanted seq fuel and they offered a wire harness. he told me how to select that from there drop down list. didnt read the caption as he said that was the one. well its not plug and play with 1st gen pimp microsquirt system. #1 inj is right but the other 3 have to be re pinned to work. thats info that should`ve been stated up front imo. re pinned and tried inj pulse. before could only get inj 1 and 2 to pulse. so the re pin is #2 gets swapped for #3 and then #2 and #4 go to expansion port pins on pin 1 and 2. tried again....now 1 and 3 pulse lol but not 2 and4 then enemy updated firmware and now cant test but all must be working just dont know about correct order. the cas system i bought which converts dizzy into a crank wheel and sensor.....instructions are crap! words say one thing and pic another. so not sure if thats set right. when asked the builder of the cas which was right or how does it need to be set up......he answers in riddles.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 01:13:39 PM
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 01:16:45 PM
in the pic of the 16/1 crank wheel, you cannot see it due to the dts insignia. there is a mark on the housing and wheel showing the alignment point. it is on the leading edge of the 3 actual physical tooth.

i find these instructions to be a bit irritating!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 18, 2017, 07:55:01 PM
And you COULD have gotten the FAST ecu and avoided all of that BS. Sorry,I just had to add this comment. I hope /know you guys will figure it out.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2017, 11:15:30 PM
i know and i know lol lol and we are...enemy found a real good article on cas types functions and settings that really shed some light on the subject. ;) ;)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 19, 2017, 07:19:19 AM
enemy sent me a pdf file he found with some really good info on crank angle sensor info. discusses sever diff types of wheels and sensors, there purposes and phasing. it touches the subjects of how bikes are set up as the high rpm engines are harder to read. but basically in my case.....i set it up the way wes ( the guys that builds and sells them) instructions said to. his instructions say each tooth is 45* and to set it 90* before tdc. well here's the issue......his new system is 24-2 wheel and his old is 16-1 wheel. at the crank a wheel is based on a 360* rotational angle but at the cam it's a 720* angle. when installing a wheel i the distributor, it now spins at the speed of the cam so 720* there as well. basically divide number of teeth by 360* and you have your degrees between each tooth. for a cam or dizzy as in my case, multiply by 2 for the degree #. so 15* on the crank for 24-2 wheel or 30* on cam/dizzy. which needs to be input thru tuner studio so as to find a rock solid 10* btdc on cranking speed. as you can see in his instructions he says 45* per tooth, well thats for his old 16-1 wheel. the fooker won't take 30 mins to update and re write his instructions but he has no issue charging $250 for his set up!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 19, 2017, 01:28:25 PM
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 19, 2017, 01:39:45 PM
just started reading this this AM, and will need to re read it with tuner studio opened while i look over enemy's shoulder  rofl rofl

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/accel-enrichment/ (https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/accel-enrichment/)

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/idle-tuning-megasquirt/ (https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/idle-tuning-megasquirt/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 19, 2017, 07:48:04 PM
so how far have you ventured into the tuning options on that fast system? since enemy is forcing me to slowly learn all this  ;) i have been reading up on AE ( accel enrichment ) tuning strategies.

I've gotten quite into it. Are you able to data log with your system?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 19, 2017, 07:54:17 PM
FWIW,you apparently have an unnecessarily difficult system to install. You'll get it figured out I'm sure but if it were me I'd have sent it to the trash with all that indefinite answer/crappy instructions/piss poor tech support that I'm seeing. 

That said FAST tech support is piss poor as well but the instructions are spot on with no maybe this/maybe that BS and their forum has a few very knowledgeable people that are more than happy to help.Sort of like it is here. Got a question? Someone has the correct answer and if you buy a system from one very special dealer/member he will set you up with an initial tune that is almost perfect from day one. I was amazed but he's an older fart like me and has many,many years tuning literally hundreds of all sorts of combinations.

Odd question for you , I have my reason to ask, what are you seeing for vacuum at idle?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 19, 2017, 09:52:19 PM
i did not look but enemy stated it has increased from what it was sun. so it's breaking in. i contacted the builder tonight and he said send back so he can look it over as something isn't right. enemy stated he has never seen so many glitchs and he runs a pimp ecu. i think he made a mistake installing the daughter board . i paid for that mod so i could go seq fuel. which is why i needed a cas system too. i was looking at megasquirt ms 3 systems today as they have all functions. i will see what he says when he gets it. it does run but looks like cyl 2 and 3 are crossed in his board to me ( a guess though ). i have no way to know for sure though. just did a simple check with temp gun on manifold while enemy held 2k rpm. cyl 2 and 3 are 125* hotter than 1 and 4.  no matter what cannot pulse 2 injectors still. enemy had him on the phone and did as he asked. have access back to the system to pulse them but cannot pulse 2 and 4 inj's. he ( wes the ecu guy) says well they are working but still should be able to test them and doesn't know why so send it back so he can look it over.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 20, 2017, 09:49:05 AM
And you COULD have gotten the FAST ecu and avoided all of that BS. Sorry,I just had to add this comment. I hope /know you guys will figure it out.

While I'm sure the FAST system is a good system, it cannot accomplish what this MS2 based system can.
DS wants sequential fuel with ability to trim individual cylinders, Distributor-less ignition with the ability to run COP and wasted spark, full closed loop boost control, closed loop idle control, closed loop ARF control, flex fuel to adjust the VE tables laptop free if the ethanol content changes tank to tank... Am I missing anything on a first build/first fire??
Oh and individual fan control for radiator and innercooler fans, and canbus to a custom dash display from the ECU..
So after about 4 full hours of setup and configuring, it went down the road and boosted safely to 18psi with rock solid timing. I would say that is far from trash. It does have some quirks, and I think that can be placed on the builder of this particular used ECU and the CAS system. Was it plug and play? No. But the Pimp IS plug-and-play on a stock 2.3 turbo and some Ford V8's using the factory Ford wiring harness with very little mods. As in: bolt on the 60pin, configure your sensors, set up you injector characteristics, sync timing and fire it off and start tuning. That will be proven shortly on Heim's rail I hope! The forum that supports the system is very helpful, and if not, the creators of the MS systems at MSextra.com have forgotten more than most have learned and will help you get it right no matter if you are putting a Squirt on a jet-ski, gocart, or a John Deere B. (seen it!) Cool stuff!

Motor is settling in at 15" vacuum as of last evening, and feels really good going down the road, great job DS! And thanks for the headaches! LOL, just kidding I actually enjoy the tuning challenge.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 20, 2017, 10:32:21 AM
Never said it was trash. I said I'd have thrown it in the trash. FWIW, the FAST XFI would have done all the above. I'm not trying to say that FAST is better by any means but most of eithers capability is overkill and not needed for all but the most competitive racers.  Just for discussion , again not knocking any brand, if you are tuning an engine to wring out every last hp from it  ,it will be just like a high maintenance girl friend.  Again, does this system data log? Does it log all cylinders individually and if so,how does it do AFR individually with just one O2 sensor? If it only has one 02 sensor ,how would he be able to know how much to trim individual cylinders? I have lots of questions but we can start with these. I did consider the matter stuff along with the Holley be systems but decided the FAST system would suit my needs best,easiest. Of course ,that could change. ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 20, 2017, 12:36:32 PM
It will datalog any channel desired, tooth logger, composite logger, etc..
Only one WB so individual trims is something I would not be comfortable with messing with unless there are egt sensors stuck in every port.
Yes sir they all have way more than most will ever need or use! But when the expansion ability is there, it sure is nice to have it and not have to buy/build a new controller.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 12:52:39 PM
i tried to look up fast systems last night. i was hot and tired and didnt see on listed for an alreeady fuel injected system so shut it off. enemy is right i that is my objective as to have an ecu set that will adjust on the fly for load , boost and adjust for fuel content through flex sensor. i can see now that this used ecu i bought and sent to the builder to have upgraded for seq fuel was prob a bad idea. i bet it worked fin but that the daughter board for seq inj has either pushed it to its limits or ( my guess) he missed a solder joint of something internally.                 enemy i had my finger on buy it ms3 xs last night! it has all the features and 40% more i dont need all built in and ms3!  and i know iave asked a lot on a sand rail but why not rofl rofl
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 01:01:03 PM
fabr...honestly though about the trash can idea last night lol and i wasnt as frustrated as enemy ! tried to enable can comm for this guage i have so can monitor ethynol content per fill up as well as coolant, boost, afr etc etc. well the damn thing didnt like something and locked enemy out. it took him a while to get that fixed and he looked ready to smash it on the wall lol again though.....i just believe there is something wrong inside it. at this point it`s got to go back.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 20, 2017, 01:09:02 PM
It will datalog any channel desired, tooth logger, composite logger, etc..
Only one WB so individual trims is something I would not be comfortable with messing with unless there are egt sensors stuck in every port.
Yes sir they all have way more than most will ever need or use! But when the expansion ability is there, it sure is nice to have it and not have to buy/build a new controller.
tuning with egts is a bit risky . Just too slow response.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 20, 2017, 01:26:15 PM
tuning with egts is a bit risky . Just too slow response.
From what I was told, I wouldn't want to see the EGT #s anyway! It would just scare ya on a boosted motor lol! Wideband is the only way to go IMO, but stuffing a big ole bung in little individual exhaust ports would block half of it..
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 20, 2017, 04:50:47 PM
Then individual cylinder trim is useless...................... I know guys running sequential with 8 02 sensors though. Pretty minimal gains but very useful when looking for every last pony in the pasture.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 20, 2017, 06:16:22 PM
With my old AEM setup, I use fuel trims for evening out bank-to-bank fueling since one side of the block was leaner than the other on that build. Dual widebands sensors, works very well.. To bad its 12 years old and about to crap out completely. MS3 to replace that dinosaur!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 06:17:44 PM
found a broken doo hicky thingy on the board lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 06:19:38 PM
wes k asked for pics of top right corner of board where he added the daughter board.  i saw this while i was looking. also on the rear where that board pokes through the green board there are 3 tight holes with pins soldered in but looks like solder flowed across two rather than itself
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 20, 2017, 07:19:18 PM
None of that would make me all warm and fuzzy.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 20, 2017, 07:30:07 PM
With my old AEM setup, I use fuel trims for evening out bank-to-bank fueling since one side of the block was leaner than the other on that build. Dual widebands sensors, works very well.. To bad its 12 years old and about to crap out completely. MS3 to replace that dinosaur!
The FAST XFI will do individual trims or B2B also. You are comfortable with the MS stuff and I'm getting pretty good friends with the FAST stuff. Bottom line is we usually stay with what we are comfortable and well acquainted with. Sort of like girlfriends and wives.  LMAO LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 08:03:49 PM
yep  ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 20, 2017, 08:07:34 PM
None of that would make me all warm and fuzzy.

sent those pics to him.....his reply   ........Q3 and Q4 are the nitrous drive transistors.  They coincidentally are connected to same processor ports as sequential injectors, and you loose their function anyway when you go sequential.   

on the second pic of the 3 spots soldered together....... That is ignition transistor for distributor, and those get tested 100? on assembly.  They look like they are touching, but probably arent



the distributor tfi wiring is re used for cas system
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on July 21, 2017, 05:44:51 AM
I would guess they test too, but to what extint?  I mean it runs and comp would prop pass most test, but the nitty gritty tiny stuff could fail.  you'll get it sorted.  Hopefully they can rush it back next week.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 21, 2017, 06:50:09 AM
bench test only. not sure how far you can go with a bench test as in all systems live and operating. it works for a while but cannot verify correct firing order of inj's and with an ir temp gun cyl 2 and 3 are running hotter that 1 and 4 by 125* to 130* give or take a degree. just to many glitch's to trust this ecu imo
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 21, 2017, 07:15:43 AM
Not trying to badmouth any mfg testing procedures  ,just putting out interesting info hopefully. I found out after I bought my FAST efi that when an ecu is returned to them they test and if found to be faulty ,repair and then run it on a test mule (engine) for one hour before returning it to customer.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 21, 2017, 03:39:03 PM
and the correct way to do it! must have a few engines too. i have serious doubts thats what took place with mine lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 21, 2017, 05:08:13 PM
I don't think they get many back.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 21, 2017, 05:14:55 PM
found a broken doo hicky thingy on the board lol

2009..
That's...
old..
er..
ish..

His solders look like shit.

No warm fuzzys here either..

And there is an MS3 just up the dirt road from ya ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on July 21, 2017, 05:19:05 PM
And an MS2, but you will have to batch fire your injectors..
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 22, 2017, 08:58:53 AM
cost $1200 but a new ms3 and expansion harness is on it's way. thanks enemy for letting me open the box up n the ms3....now know the new ecu's are un molested as in he hasn't soldered them together lol they come already done he just sends a base tune. so should solve my issues and just because the engine needs more break in time enemy and i took turns driving it around for a few miles last night lol damn sure cant the ecu!  rofl really sickening but hey i don't give a f$%k any more! once it ships back and wes does whatever to fix it and stamps good i am putting it up for sale on his forum with his clean bill of health stamp!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 24, 2017, 07:04:17 AM
i had 3 questions on the ms3 pimp system so i asked stinger performance. he is partners with wes the guy that handles all the programming and electronics side. he is also the one that converted my ecu to sequential. he sent me a pm and asked that i call him yesterday. so he appoligized for the issues with the ecu. said he`ll figure it out when he gets it back and tthats its possible that split transistor is causing the issues. he said he hooks each one to a harness that has testlights at each point. said he tests each one but he doesnt let them sit there for any length of time powered up. he answered all the wiring change questions and also gave me the info on my ls2 coils so i can run seq spark as well with the new ecu.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on July 24, 2017, 09:47:02 AM
i had 3 questions on the ms3 pimp system so i asked stinger performance. he is partners with wes the guy that handles all the programming and electronics side. he is also the one that converted my ecu to sequential. he sent me a pm and asked that i call him yesterday. so he appoligized for the issues with the ecu. said he`ll figure it out when he gets it back and tthats its possible that split transistor is causing the issues. he said he hooks each one to a harness that has testlights at each point. said he tests each one but he doesnt let them sit there for any length of time powered up. he answered all the wiring change questions and also gave me the info on my ls2 coils so i can run seq spark as well with the new ecu.
I sure as hell hope you can............... rofl rofl
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on July 24, 2017, 11:47:53 AM
ya isn`t that the truth!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 06, 2017, 09:05:34 AM
well the new ecu is in..... re wired the harness for seq spark with my ls2 coils and re pinned the harness back to original for seq fuel as well. it was seq fuel with the gen 1 pimp ecu but had to bring 2 inj's in on expansion port,new one is a direct wire to 60 pin connector. fired right up and idles soooooooo much better! in know just know 2 of the inj's were firing out of order on that gen1 ecu. also had to pull the gauge harness and make a new one. i don't know why but the 4 twisted pair shielded cat 6 wire i was using had a voltage leak in it somewhere. couldn't track it down and it was leaching 1.3 volts into my oil psi sensor and confusing my gauge. so out it came and a new one in. the gauge uses 20g wire so thats why i used the cat6 cable plus the connecter ends are a breeze! to bad so it's all soldered together now. car fires up and goes right to high/cold idle and here's a pic of the oil psi. rt lower corner. other readings are not active yet in tuner studio, will get to that soon.

the throttle response with this ms3 pimpxs ecu is very impressive. it's not as good as a bike motor but damn close compared to most car engines.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 06, 2017, 12:34:03 PM
now the throttle response is crap compared to now with new ecu. so this video is with the old ecu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9eCO6ToJg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9eCO6ToJg)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9eCO6ToJg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm9eCO6ToJg)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2017, 04:42:09 PM
on another note.....my car is undrivable! steve was here with his turbo 2.3 and dougs rail.....scotts old rail with a turbo 2.3. stock 84 to 85 turbo, stock pistons, rods internals basically but mild ported heads and larger valves. one of the cheap easy upgrades is to put the roller cam out of a 94 95 ranger dual spark plug head into the turbo 2.3 to replace the stock slider cam ford used. this wakes up the bottom end off idle. i researched cams as i felt there was room for improvment over that stock rr cam ( ranger roller ). i called engle and talked to them about there hot pinto tubo cam. $425 shipped and a complete failure for a sand rail! it doesn't make power until 2800 rpm then the turbo starts to light vs the stock rr cam which lights the turbo 500 rpm off idle! now i will say for a racing cam say street or strip the hot pinto cam is a very good choice but for bottom end.....flat liner, undrivable, have to slip the clutch to even get it rolling! now i think the new walbro 450 e85 fuel pump is cashing out as i lost 10 psi fuel pressure over night. made to the bigger dunes by the lake but have to keep it above 4k rpm to keep the turbo lit and that's some real ground speed, too fast for me to go over the dunes and cannot slow down to check edges before you transition so no good riding in my rail. luckily scottsmith took me for several rides in his v8 4 seater.......i really like the v8!  lol raw tq!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2017, 04:45:09 PM
i did get the shocks really close to were i want them while i am here as i have plenty of time lol and power steering is a must imo. the electronic gauge i bought , i really like that from perfect tuning. the rugged car to car and intercom..... worth every penny so far!   
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2017, 04:46:43 PM
i am only at 14 psi boost right now as we were still tuning. that is the spring in my wg. where there is no bottom end and i mean at all! when you hit 3k that turbo lights and hits 14 psi right now.....puts you back in your seat. can't wait to see 30 psi!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on August 16, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
on another note.....my car is undrivable! steve was here with his turbo 2.3 and dougs rail.....scotts old rail with a turbo 2.3. stock 84 to 85 turbo, stock pistons, rods internals basically but mild ported heads and larger valves. one of the cheap easy upgrades is to put the roller cam out of a 94 95 ranger dual spark plug head into the turbo 2.3 to replace the stock slider cam ford used. this wakes up the bottom end off idle. i researched cams as i felt there was room for improvment over that stock rr cam ( ranger roller ). i called engle and talked to them about there hot pinto tubo cam. $425 shipped and a complete failure for a sand rail! it doesn't make power until 2800 rpm then the turbo starts to light vs the stock rr cam which lights the turbo 500 rpm off idle! now i will say for a racing cam say street or strip the hot pinto cam is a very good choice but for bottom end.....flat liner, undrivable, have to slip the clutch to even get it rolling! now i think the new walbro 450 e85 fuel pump is cashing out as i lost 10 psi fuel pressure over night. made to the bigger dunes by the lake but have to keep it above 4k rpm to keep the turbo lit and that's some real ground speed, too fast for me to go over the dunes and cannot slow down to check edges before you transition so no good riding in my rail. luckily scottsmith took me for several rides in his v8 4 seater.......i really like the v8!  lol raw tq!
yup 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on August 16, 2017, 05:54:23 PM
i did get the shocks really close to were i want them while i am here as i have plenty of time lol and power steering is a must imo. the electronic gauge i bought , i really like that from perfect tuning. the rugged car to car and intercom..... worth every penny so far!   
I love the rugged setup too. I sprung for the alpha bass too.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on August 16, 2017, 07:43:34 PM
on another note.....my car is undrivable! steve was here with his turbo 2.3 and dougs rail.....scotts old rail with a turbo 2.3. stock 84 to 85 turbo, stock pistons, rods internals basically but mild ported heads and larger valves. one of the cheap easy upgrades is to put the roller cam out of a 94 95 ranger dual spark plug head into the turbo 2.3 to replace the stock slider cam ford used. this wakes up the bottom end off idle. i researched cams as i felt there was room for improvment over that stock rr cam ( ranger roller ). i called engle and talked to them about there hot pinto tubo cam. $425 shipped and a complete failure for a sand rail! it doesn't make power until 2800 rpm then the turbo starts to light vs the stock rr cam which lights the turbo 500 rpm off idle! now i will say for a racing cam say street or strip the hot pinto cam is a very good choice but for bottom end.....flat liner, undrivable, have to slip the clutch to even get it rolling! now i think the new walbro 450 e85 fuel pump is cashing out as i lost 10 psi fuel pressure over night. made to the bigger dunes by the lake but have to keep it above 4k rpm to keep the turbo lit and that's some real ground speed, too fast for me to go over the dunes and cannot slow down to check edges before you transition so no good riding in my rail. luckily scottsmith took me for several rides in his v8 4 seater.......i really like the v8!  lol raw tq!
If you are bored silly,you could try advancing the cam 4*. If that improves things,go 8* . Assuming you have valve to piston clearance.  Did you degree the cam install? Are you positive you aren't way too advanced ignition timing?  Too much total timing?  Timing all in too early/too aggressive timing curve? All can kill bottom end.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on August 16, 2017, 09:39:04 PM
We had a similar issue with my dads ford 2300 and changed the cam. It ended up being a bad metering block.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 18, 2017, 12:45:52 PM
i did not degree the cam before i installed the motor. i shouldave but got in a hurry to get engine set. so the way speedway and stinger say to set cam timing wjo degreeing is to 0 the cam out. i did just that after i found true top dead center. i did advance the cam 6* but that was wose so i set back to 0. 1 issue is that i have a 3 speed trans so no 1st. 4.43 r&p 2.30 1 in my case. so i`m starting in 2nd gear compared to a 4 speed but that has no bearing on the fact that i do not get power until 2800 rpm ish which is when the turbo starts to light. was reading up on the after market cams for these motors. pretty much all 3k rpm engagement.......i specifically asked and read many posts on this cam befor selecting it......they are wong or re all racers and hole shot at 3k rpm and above.                 punkur is the metering block on a carb`d engine?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 18, 2017, 12:47:50 PM
basically the 2 other turbo 2.3 rails there are running 94 ranger roller cams. boosts in off idle but are limited to 5500 rpm basically. taking off in2nd was an issue if 1 feathered the clutch. basically i am going to that cam and prob a 4.86 r&p
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on August 18, 2017, 06:11:45 PM
i did not degree the cam before i installed the motor. i shouldave but got in a hurry to get engine set. so the way speedway and stinger say to set cam timing wjo degreeing is to 0 the cam out. i did just that after i found true top dead center. i did advance the cam 6* but that was wose so i set back to 0. 1 issue is that i have a 3 speed trans so no 1st. 4.43 r&p 2.30 1 in my case. so i`m starting in 2nd gear compared to a 4 speed but that has no bearing on the fact that i do not get power until 2800 rpm ish which is when the turbo starts to light. was reading up on the after market cams for these motors. pretty much all 3k rpm engagement.......i specifically asked and read many posts on this cam befor selecting it......they are wong or re all racers and hole shot at 3k rpm and above.                 punkur is the metering block on a carb`d engine?
I know your running injection but yes we had the issue with the carb metering block.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 19, 2017, 01:12:34 PM
 ok so i'm posting this here so i don't lose it again lol

megasand 4 speed stock....4.43 r&p 1st 330 2nd 221 3rd 167 4th 130   
my 3 speed they dump 1st and make all the other gears wider so 2nd thru 4th is now my 1st thu 3rd.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 19, 2017, 01:13:28 PM
I know your running injection but yes we had the issue with the carb metering block.

interesting....sort of like no pump shot for accel or it wan't giving enough fuel through the hole range?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on August 19, 2017, 04:21:35 PM
ok so i'm posting this here so i don't lose it again lol

megasand 4 speed stock....4.43 r&p 1st 330 2nd 221 3rd 167 4th 130   
my 3 speed they dump 1st and make all the other gears wider so 2nd thru 4th is now my 1st thu 3rd.
Not meaning to sound like a dick but I wondered what possessed you to run a 3 speed . Going lower R&p will of course make taking off easier but will also magnify the rpm drops between gears. Can yours be converted back to 4 speed?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 19, 2017, 09:08:15 PM
 because i thought i would be 2nd third like i was in the blue v6 rail but that isn't the case. it can be converted back and i have another megasand that needs r&p that is a 4 speed with a 4.86 r&p. thinking hard about that as the 330 1st would lug it to get going. using the current cam would allow a higher rpm range which is what i wanted to begin with and the deeper r&p would bring ground speed down which is also a plus as second is too fast now for the way i like to pop over the dunes. anyway i thought they dumped 4th and then made the other 3 thicker which is stronger but actually they dump 1st.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 19, 2017, 09:10:10 PM
with the gears i listed and these paddles at 32" dia i think the 4 speed with a 4.86 would keep me in the rpm ranger and bring ground speeds down. that v6 rail had a 4.57 r&p but don't remember the gears
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on August 20, 2017, 08:55:41 AM
there's some gear speed calculators online that make really,really easy work of comparing all of that. Sure,we all can do it "old school" but I'm lazy.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 20, 2017, 10:00:33 AM
well dougs rail has the same gearing but a 1st gear. you can take off with dougs rail in 2nd gear. it dogs for a second then the turbo starts to light and it walks right out of it. he has 1300 stu paddles. i have sport tires of america also made by stu and they are 14.50's so 1.5" wider and stiffer paddle but same od. l have 1 point higher comp but i have a higher rpm cam apperantly and a hybrid holset turbo. they don't offer a 4.57 r&p for the megasand only a 4.86. but i don't need to do 120 mph anymore so a top speed of 90 mph would be more than fast enough for me as long as i can grunt/tractor around when i want to.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on August 21, 2017, 06:38:58 AM
Any mount mods for the 3-4sp trans swap?  You might get by w/ your r&p in that 4sp, but the 4.86 may allow u to keep the cam and be happy with results.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on August 21, 2017, 11:20:05 AM
identical trans. i can put 4 speed gears in my case even. i did send a message to see about getting a new r&p late last night. going from a 4.43 to a 4.86 should move my current 1st to 2nd. or give a deep 1st. i will prob have my r&p put in the broken one as its a 4 speeed.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 01, 2017, 01:13:22 PM
have been trying to gather info about others experiences with the cam i selected....got some good advice but really not a lot of diff peoples personal experiences. here is the discussion

http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=059791;p=1 (http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=059791;p=1)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 01, 2017, 05:34:10 PM
All boiled down, I feel your lack of low end is due to too much overlap and too low compression for e85 to have any off boost grunt. The low compression and e85 burning much cooler than gas hinders spool time. Wanna experiment? Try running 50/50 e85 and see what that does for spool time.  E85 loves compression/hates low compression. That's why you feel such a big boost when the turbo finally spools. The e85 wakes up along with the boost since it "feels" more compression that it craves. You really need a turbo that is a bit smaller , and more static compression,IMO.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 01, 2017, 07:42:38 PM
Brian,the more i read that topic over there the more I am convinced you have tuning issues and would pursue that before I changed a thing. What is your initial timing,what is total timing,when is it all in and are you using any electronic or mechanical vacuum advance?

   What AFR target are you using? Are you using any acceleration enrichment? Have you verified all sensors are good? Checked continuity of sensors? You get the picture I'm drawing, double check everything first.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on September 01, 2017, 09:54:58 PM
DS is finding the in depth about his issues the last couple evenings, the Holset is a major issue no matter cam or tune, and got a bit of info from him last night about the "Hot Pinto" specs he discussed with Delta Cams. He will have to elaborate on that one,, wow..
As far as the tune is concerned, he is running a 24/2 tooth cam angle sensor with full sequential fuel and COP spark with LS coils. Afr targets are spot on commanded, posting a screen shot of the maps, please say something if you see anything out of wac! This is a base timing map from Stinger and will never be perfected unless dyno time is involved but they get them pretty close for a base. I have brought in more timing at high load/low rpms (clutch slip take off) to try and help it out a bit but this car is just not in harmony mechanically. When I drive it, I am looking for a first gear that doesn't exist, and the turbo is a complete mutt until it goes "SQUIRREL!!!" I see it in the VE maps as well.
 When it does go full retard, then holy shit hold the eff on!! And the cam.....wellllll....It just aint fucin right whatsoever...
Ds is on it like turbo squirrel on walnuts though...
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 01, 2017, 10:12:16 PM
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 01, 2017, 10:14:11 PM
Pull the plugs and post pics clearly showing side electrode.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Carlriddle on September 02, 2017, 04:57:59 AM
I wondered if the cooler burn effect of e85 was slowing the turbo light?
Been reading a thread about a turbo busa  on e85. Same turbo setup just swapped fuel and it changed the bikes dyno sheet. Came on later but added boost and hp/torque.
I'm doing e85 on this zx12 with the turbo. If life and temps will slow anbit.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 07:57:31 AM
All boiled down, I feel your lack of low end is due to too much overlap and too low compression for e85 to have any off boost grunt. The low compression and e85 burning much cooler than gas hinders spool time. Wanna experiment? Try running 50/50 e85 and see what that does for spool time.  E85 loves compression/hates low compression. That's why you feel such a big boost when the turbo finally spools. The e85 wakes up along with the boost since it "feels" more compression that it craves. You really need a turbo that is a bit smaller , and more static compression,IMO.


well that's an interesting thought.....i can def see that but with that being said, i personally drove two other rails at st a with turbo 2.3 engines. both stock 8 to 1 comp, 1 on e85 and other on pump fuel with water meth injection. both are running stock ranger roller cams and stock garrett turbo as in 84 to 86 model year factory equipped 2.3 turbos. the ranger roller cam btw is a stock cam out of a ranger pick up n/a 2.3 engine. they got roller cams where the factory turbo 2.3's were stock slider cams. i have not pulled my rail out of the th'er yet to do anything. had other things i needed to do and was sooooo  disappointed in it at st a i really haven't cared to even look at it to be honest!  so...... dougs rail is on e85 and steve has the other. now my megasand is a 3 speed so what the did was drop 1st gear and make the other 3 wider to be stronger. dougs rail has the same gearing accept  1st as i don't have one. i purposely took off in 2nd gear in dougs rail and steves, many times! both him haw and bog for a second or two then come right out of it, mine doesn't until well over 2k rpm and at or by 2800 the turbo starts to light then hold on! btw i really like that little adrenaline rush when it lights and spools that fast  ;) rofl but having to run 3k to 6k rpm is too fast of a ground speed to transverse over the tops of the dunes at st a and keeps me stuck in my 1st gear. LS i think would be doable as i am more comfortable there but trans could use deeper r&p imo and i am working on that. now with that being said dougs and steves rails take off in 2nd and by say close to 1500 rpm the power start coming on and they will pull any dune and slow up more than enough to grunt over the tops in fact even shifted 3rd and grunted over! steves rail is basically the same 2nd thru 4 but 4.57 r&p vs i and dougs 4.43 r&p.  the huge diff is i have nothing and i mean nothing but mush under 2600 rpm basically give or take 100 rpm.

now .....steve and doug are stock 8 to 1 comp......i am 9 to 1 comp. steve has a pimp ecu using tuner studio, dougs as well. doug and i have the same timing map and steves was but he altered it a tiny touch i think but not 100% sure on that.  i have 130lb inj's doug has 100 lb inj's and steve has stock inj's which is why the water meth. both those rails run circles around mine below 2800 rpm but at that point i could shoot past them like they were standing still lol lol

bo , a friend of scott smith's purchased a garrett 35r turbo with stage 3 exh and he doesn't know comp side .64 are hot side. he loved it but then converted to e85 and it would not spool as fast so he dropped the exh ar to .48 and got all his spool up back. so yes i do agree e85 does burn cooler so that has to be accounted for however that doesn't change the fact that this turbo cam is just not right for this motor for my application. 99% of those members are street strip guys and just cannot understand the offroad side. they can say what ever they want but the fact remains i personally drove 2 other rails with basically the same gearing with same od tires in the same sand on the same days in the same ambient temps and they had all the bottom end!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on September 02, 2017, 08:01:32 AM
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.

e80 the last tank to be exact. MS and Tuner Studio use a "required fuel" settings to set the STOICH value of the fuel being run, in this case around 10.1
This is how it is done to easily run e85 +or - and still use gas targets on target maps and wide band readouts. Many detailed write-ups on the subject
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 08:42:59 AM
You have gas afr's showing. i thought he was e85? LOL   Anyway,I think you are trying to run too lean.

the program has a conversion table so you can display it this way and ecu make the cal corrections. this was my choice as i spent all the time with the busa looking at afr's and was more comfortable viewing it this way.  my tune isn't much diff than dougs btw and same guy tunning them lol

i can pull plugs and take a pic but while at st a i did just that and they were a light tan color and no soot build up.

now this hybrid holset turbo is def an issue as well. 9cm exh housing is basically like a .65 in a garrett if that helps put it into perspective. after talking to delta cams and out of the 3 cam manufacturers i spoke with , delta cams will have my business from here on out btw! that man took 25 mins out of his day to try and explain and help me understand/set up a cam he neither built not sold. i will be the first to say i just can't read a cam card not do i understand it. i am learning but struggling with it. this person became a little frustrated on the phone but no with me it was with the lack of info on the cam card. where i had already figured out i had made the wrong turbo choice for this app he did politely confirm that for me  LMAO LMAO. all the turbo shops and forum members i read or discussed my wants with for this app using this motor all said " .48 exh is waaaaay to small min .64 well they are all wrong! they are all speaking of at higher rpms which are not needed nor used in the rail on sand as dougs and steves rails proved to me. by 3500 rpm or so those turbos are full on and those rails will easily pull any dune at st a and i mean easily! they are running stock .63 housings but a .48 would light them even faster! however they are smaller frame turbo's as well as in inducer/ exducer wheel sizes. now upon further reading on turbo cams specifically, i found what reads that over lap creates a cooling effect on the turbos so if that's true then coupled with e85 then that issue is amplified let alone those two coupled with a larger frame turbo that requires more flow to light even though its been machined with diff parts to light faster than stock it still is an issue.

wessk ( username on tf) set his up using a degree ring. he stated that with 100% certainty he know his hot pinto cam has an additional 20* duration at the valve vs what the cam card specs out. engle cams that's not true there specs are at valve. delta cam guy says if he's writing the info and not printing it out then he's using ( don't remember the name of the machine so we'll call it A) A machine and where it is acceptable in the industry it is not accurate enough in his opinion which is why they and many other shops use B machine. i will post up cam card and print out from them so you that makes more sense. so.....when i told him this cam doesn't bring power in till 2800 rpm and pulls hard to 7k he said thats 1k rpm long based on the specs on the cam card. then said that this cam should start falling off on power at 6k or abouts. i didn't know at that time that my duration may actually be 20* longer. on a side note it is intersting to see the 3 diff cam cards posted on TF and how all three cam card specs are slightly diff on the same cam.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 08:50:43 AM
i'm sure i'm leaving some details out but too many to list but bottom line i need to change cam and turbo and start over. i see an efr turbo in my future after i decide on which cam if i decide to go with a diff cam over the rr cam. i have an rr cam and two stock garrett turbos as well as enemy's turbonetics t3/t4 hybrid with both .48 and .64 exh hotside. i will be going to those so i can make an ls trip in hopes of having some fun finally lol  ;) ;)   

fabr this is why i don't believe it's the tune...not saying 100% that it is not but i am very doubtful of that. i believe it was misinformation on cam choice and turbo choice from street strip guys vs offroaders but have found an offroader that is building his third engine who swares by his cam for bottom end and still breathes better then the rr cam with 0 overlap.

correct me if i am wrong but from what i have read and tried to learn.....higher duration and/or over lap reduces cyl pressure? cyl psi is needed to spool the turbo faster vs rpm as well as to produce lower end power? larger frame turbo's are higher rpm turbos esp with larger exh ar's which are to breath at higher rpms in relation to cyl or manifold back psi?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 08:51:23 AM
cam card
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 08:58:23 AM
cam card from delta cams and the cam i may consider from the offroad ranger guy username mavereq


btw the guy at delta believes that even though i set mine up at 0 that it may be retarded a bit to hit 7k rpm but that with the lack of info on the card i would need to sent it in or degree it to ever know for sure. he also said that the higher comp makes it even harder to understand why i'm 1k rpm short of where i should be starting to make power even factoring incorrect turbo choice. again didn't know at that time that actual duration could be 20* longer than engle cam card states . i said to him well maybe i'll sell this one and buy one of yours.....like the one i'm posing. his response was .....i would be happy to sell you one but no need to do so yet but rather let me draw up a set up sheet for your current cam since engle did not provide one which they should of. thats when he got frustrated with the lack of info off the card. that is true customer service imo!

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 02, 2017, 09:52:40 AM
e80 the last tank to be exact. MS and Tuner Studio use a "required fuel" settings to set the STOICH value of the fuel being run, in this case around 10.1
This is how it is done to easily run e85 +or - and still use gas targets on target maps and wide band readouts. Many detailed write-ups on the subject
I completely understand that. I mean that even if it was on gas with those readings it is a bit lean,IMO.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 02, 2017, 10:05:21 AM
if that is a screen shot of my current map you cannot go off that. the last day there my afr started reading lean. i changed the o2 sensor then fuel filter and no change. i unplugged the vac line to rising reg and sits at a solid 44 psi until i free rev it to 2k rpm then jumps 4 to 5 psi and afr gauge shows enrichment as well. not sure if that pump or the reg are to blame but one is taking a crap with less then 5o miles on it. but went from sightly rich to lean. before that it was a rock solid 13.5 to 14 at idle and correct off idle. i parked it and didn't care at that point!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 02, 2017, 04:14:43 PM
if that is a screen shot of my current map you cannot go off that. the last day there my afr started reading lean. i changed the o2 sensor then fuel filter and no change. i unplugged the vac line to rising reg and sits at a solid 44 psi until i free rev it to 2k rpm then jumps 4 to 5 psi and afr gauge shows enrichment as well. not sure if that pump or the reg are to blame but one is taking a crap with less then 5o miles on it. but went from sightly rich to lean. before that it was a rock solid 13.5 to 14 at idle and correct off idle. i parked it and didn't care at that point!
With that cam,it's too lean.  12.5-8 would be more like it. WOT around 12.8 as well. Maybe in the 13+ range for light throttle cruising. Just my .02.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 03, 2017, 09:17:08 AM
With that cam,it's too lean.  12.5-8 would be more like it. WOT around 12.8 as well. Maybe in the 13+ range for light throttle cruising. Just my .02.

on e85 or e80 in my case? under boost needs to be richer.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Enemy on September 03, 2017, 09:47:36 AM
With that cam,it's too lean.  12.5-8 would be more like it. WOT around 12.8 as well. Maybe in the 13+ range for light throttle cruising. Just my .02.
12.8 at WOT is asking for devastation at the upper kpa. 12.5 is the lean limit and I won't even dance around it, not worth the risk. 130-300kpa its is commanded a much richer 12.2 pulling down to 11.4. Very safe fueling under boost.  Light cruise is in the mid 13's. Idle arf's very so much on these little motors, ya find a good ve it seems to "like" and transition well from, then move on. Depends on the nastiness of the cam I suppose. My Ranger with the Bo2.1 cam loves to idle clean around 13.9-14.2. And I highway cruise the flats at 14.7-14.9. Different load on a different animal though..
Regardless, this tune is getting mostly scrapped for a completely new combo anyway lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 03, 2017, 10:53:08 AM
Bottom line,it's too lean off boost/under 3000 rpm where it's lack of power is occurring. I see lots of quite lean cells for that cam. Again,just my opinion. We all agree from what is being reported that it's fine under boost at this point so that's not part of this discussion. Just my .02. When the timing and fueling is right there is no reason the combo he has lacks all bottom end performance as is described here with the cam I see on the spec sheet . Back when I was doing the high perf machine shop stuff there were several guys running these motors with bigger yet cams and somehow they were fine performing daily drivers. They were n/a motors. Oh well,good luck with the new combo and hope to see you guys in Oct @ LS.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 03, 2017, 11:08:13 AM
Just to be clear of the area I am saying is too lean for the cam I just squared off the general area I feel is just too lean. Just the general area that is all off boost. When I said WOT,I was not meaning under boost WOT. I am only addressing the off boost area where he has no power.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 03, 2017, 09:46:30 PM
hope to see you on the sand as well!

i am out of my element reading those charts but at those rpms where it shows an afr of 14.7 or such that is at very low load which i think would coincide with tps %. i don't see ever being that low at those rpms. we could set them at 13.0 across the board down low in those load ranges, def won't hurt anything. i do know while enemy was adjusting the fuel at idle and above while sitting in my garage that this cam wanted more fuel or richer  than leaner levels. spent the day mowing and trimming branches and weed eating so nothing got done on the rail. i did turn the rail on and i think i have a hole in the flex coupler. that may be why the afr 3 went way off all of a sudden at st a dunes. doesn't matter i am changing the turbo anyway which will require a new down pipe. i will pull a plug and snap a photo with a real camera tomorrow.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 03, 2017, 09:47:28 PM
enemy you should post up a copy of steves tune to show how much sooner boost comes in like dougs rail vs mine.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 03, 2017, 11:13:02 PM
hope to see you on the sand as well!

i am out of my element reading those charts but at those rpms where it shows an afr of 14.7 or such that is at very low load which i think would coincide with tps %. i don't see ever being that low at those rpms. we could set them at 13.0 across the board down low in those load ranges, def won't hurt anything. i do know while enemy was adjusting the fuel at idle and above while sitting in my garage that this cam wanted more fuel or richer  than leaner levels. spent the day mowing and trimming branches and weed eating so nothing got um done on the rail. i did turn the rail on and i think i have a hole in the flex coupler. that may be why the afr 3 went way off all of a sudden at st a dunes. doesn't matter i am changing the turbo anyway which will require a new down pipe. i will pull a plug and snap a photo with a real camera tomorrow.
Anything below 100 kpa is vacuum. You have not told me what your idle vacuum is. It is likely in the range of at least 70kpa and hopefully 50 or less. Anything below the level of your actual vacuum is irrelevant. That said ,yes the lower 2 lines (maybe even the 3rd and 4th) are nothing to consider and shouldn't have been boxed in. . All the 13+ afr's up to 100kpa are ,IMO ,way too lean for your cam.I'd back down to maybe 12.8 or so to start with. Did you set your initial timing with a vacuum gauge? If not,you need to . Set initial to where you get highest vacuum at idle.  This will help low rpm/take off from stop torque greatly.Then set your all in timing to where boost starts hitting maybe 135kpa and then ,as it appears you are now doing, begin pulling timing.

 Plug pic needs to be of a new plug,warmed up engine ,make a full throttle run to top end(or as fast as you feel safe),cut ignition,coast to stop,pull plug,take pic. I would want to see where the timing mark is on the side electrode.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 08:01:07 AM
Search:
There is a search box in the top right corner of TunerStudio that allows you to search for settings you may not be able to locate on your own.


Feature Explanation:
If you put your mouse pointer on the blue "?" next to each setting in TunerStudio, after a second a box pops up that explains what that setting does.


Convert Load % (kPa) to PSI:
You can use this calculator to convert MAP sensor kPa values to PSI (gauge):

www.endmemo.com/cconvert/psigkpa.php (http://www.endmemo.com/cconvert/psigkpa.php)

PSI to kPa (Load %) conversion at sea level:
 1 PSIG = 108 kPa
 2 PSIG = 115 kPa
 3 PSIG = 122 kPa
 4 PSIG = 129 kPa
 5 PSIG = 136 kPa
 6 PSIG = 142 kPa
 7 PSIG = 149 kPa
 8 PSIG = 156 kPa
 9 PSIG = 163 kPa
10 PSIG = 170 kPa
11 PSIG = 177 kPa
12 PSIG = 184 kPa
13 PSIG = 191 kPa
14 PSIG = 198 kPa
15 PSIG = 204 kPa
16 PSIG = 211 kPa
17 PSIG = 218 kPa
18 PSIG = 225 kPa
19 PSIG = 232 kPa
20 PSIG = 239 kPa
21 PSIG = 246 kPa
22 PSIG = 253 kPa
23 PSIG = 260 kPa
24 PSIG = 266 kPa
25 PSIG = 273 kPa
26 PSIG = 280 kPa
27 PSIG = 287 kPa
28 PSIG = 294 kPa
29 PSIG = 301 kPa
30 PSIG = 308 kPa
31 PSIG = 315 kPa
32 PSIG = 322 kPa
33 PSIG = 329 kPa
34 PSIG = 335 kPa
35 PSIG = 342 kPa
36 PSIG = 349 kPa
37 PSIG = 356 kPa
38 PSIG = 363 kPa
39 PSIG = 370 kPa
40 PSIG = 377 kPa
More Coming Soon
Last Edit: Mar 22, 2016 at 10:59pm by Stinger
www.Stinger-Performance.com (http://www.Stinger-Performance.com)

Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/5013/pimpx-pimpxs-faq-frequently-asked#ixzz4ricFA300
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 08:19:11 AM
so the one time i saw the vac gauge on tuner studio it read 15" vac. now that was a fresh motor with 0 runtime. i don't know current vac at idle. so i'm pulling the turbo today so plug pics that way are out. i believe i have a hole in the flex coupler on dp 2 to 4" above my 02 sensor.

when you say set timing where vac is highest....do you mean electronic timing advance through tuner studio? other wise there isn't a way to do so while the engine is running. i don't have a distributor.  that timing map comes in stingers flash drive for base maps. we have not altered that timing map at all as it is a safe timing map. stinger says to add timing down low in the low rpm cells for take off. he said that is the strategy used on auto trans as they don't have the ability to rev rpms on take off like a manual. again part of this issue is my gearing i know this but on the same note i took off in 2nd gear in dougs and steves.....1 to 2 psi boost comes in quick and those rails take off no issue after that, mine is over a 1000 rpm later in the rpm band.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 08:39:17 AM
Search:
There is a search box in the top right corner of TunerStudio that allows you to search for settings you may not be able to locate on your own.


Feature Explanation:
If you put your mouse pointer on the blue "?" next to each setting in TunerStudio, after a second a box pops up that explains what that setting does.


Convert Load % (kPa) to PSI:
You can use this calculator to convert MAP sensor kPa values to PSI (gauge):

www.endmemo.com/cconvert/psigkpa.php (http://www.endmemo.com/cconvert/psigkpa.php)

PSI to kPa (Load %) conversion at sea level:
 1 PSIG = 108 kPa
 2 PSIG = 115 kPa
 3 PSIG = 122 kPa
 4 PSIG = 129 kPa
 5 PSIG = 136 kPa
 6 PSIG = 142 kPa
 7 PSIG = 149 kPa
 8 PSIG = 156 kPa
 9 PSIG = 163 kPa
10 PSIG = 170 kPa
11 PSIG = 177 kPa
12 PSIG = 184 kPa
13 PSIG = 191 kPa
14 PSIG = 198 kPa
15 PSIG = 204 kPa
16 PSIG = 211 kPa
17 PSIG = 218 kPa
18 PSIG = 225 kPa
19 PSIG = 232 kPa
20 PSIG = 239 kPa
21 PSIG = 246 kPa
22 PSIG = 253 kPa
23 PSIG = 260 kPa
24 PSIG = 266 kPa
25 PSIG = 273 kPa
26 PSIG = 280 kPa
27 PSIG = 287 kPa
28 PSIG = 294 kPa
29 PSIG = 301 kPa
30 PSIG = 308 kPa
31 PSIG = 315 kPa
32 PSIG = 322 kPa
33 PSIG = 329 kPa
34 PSIG = 335 kPa
35 PSIG = 342 kPa
36 PSIG = 349 kPa
37 PSIG = 356 kPa
38 PSIG = 363 kPa
39 PSIG = 370 kPa
40 PSIG = 377 kPa
More Coming Soon
Last Edit: Mar 22, 2016 at 10:59pm by Stinger
www.Stinger-Performance.com (http://www.Stinger-Performance.com)

Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/5013/pimpx-pimpxs-faq-frequently-asked#ixzz4ricFA300
I have cheat sheets with all the conversions. I'm used to psi and vacuum. I'm used to AFR ratios . I'm getting used to kpa and lambda,still need the cheat sheets though. If we would all get used to kpa and lambda we would have a lot less confusion when discussing tunes no matter the fuel used.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 08:44:23 AM
i agree and am trying to learn but i got enough mind warps going on lol jon speaks that language though. the ecu, in the setting selected, recalculates stoich to lamba for my afr based on alcohol content for afr reading for me. i do not have the flex sensor active for the ecu to make changes based on that yet. once tuned then closed loop can be selected and flex can command changes.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 08:57:15 AM
so the one time i saw the vac gauge on tuner studio it read 15" vac(approx 57kpa). now that was a fresh motor with 0 runtime. i don't know current vac at idle. so i'm pulling the turbo today so plug pics that way are out. i believe i have a hole in the flex coupler on dp 2 to 4" above my 02 sensor.Flow some propane from an unlit propane torch around the area and see if the O2 reading changes as you do so. No need to do the work till you are sure it needs done.

when you say set timing where vac is highest....do you mean electronic timing advance through tuner studio? other wise there isn't a way to do so while the engine is running. i don't have a distributor.  that timing map comes in stingers flash drive for base maps. You can't alter timing with the engine running with your system?Why? I can with my software. My efi controls and I can make changes  in real time. Even if you can't,you can make initial timing changes and then restart to engine to see differences. we have not altered that timing map at all as it is a safe timing map.Safe and wrong. stinger says to add timing down low in the low rpm cells for take off. he said that is the strategy used on auto trans as they don't have the ability to rev rpms on take off like a manual. True,and when you get it right at idle you will have your max idle vacuum.again part of this issue is my gearing i know this but on the same note i took off in 2nd gear in dougs and steves.....1 to 2 psi boost comes in quick and those rails take off no issue after that, mine is over a 1000 rpm later in the rpm band. IMO,as I have said  before,it's your tune and you verify you have not done a thing to the ignition tune and your off boost fuel is too lean for your cam. There's your issue/s . That "safe" ignition tune is crap. All that you are redoing will be disappointing as well if you don't do the ignition tune,especially with a cam that is significantly different from what stinger set the ignition tune for. If it were me,I'd do a lot more tuning before I threw the baby out with the bath water.
Honestly,from what I'm reading from you,you just want a tractor that runs like a top fuel. That ain't a gonna happen. You need to choose one or the other. That said,there's no reason what you have now can't be made to work much,much,much better with some ignition and fuel tuning that suits your combo. Your timing is off and so is the fueling.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 09:02:58 AM
i agree and am trying to learn but i got enough mind warps going on lol jon speaks that language though. the ecu, in the setting selected, recalculates stoich to lamba for my afr based on alcohol content for afr reading for me. i do not have the flex sensor active for the ecu to make changes based on that yet. once tuned then closed loop can be selected and flex can command changes.
I know Jon speaks it but he is tuning it like a pretty much stocker with a turbo added. It shows in the tune charts.  You have a cammed up engine that will require significantly different tune. If the tune is off on a stocker the engine will overlook it a bit. With a cammed up engine not so much. You are not overly cammed though by any stretch of the imagination.

If you have any exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor ,or even after since O2 can and will revert into the exhaust for a long way, you will have zero luck getting it to run well period no matter your combo.

 I'd like to have seen a log more than your settings also. IMO,you're just throwing in the towel way too soon.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 09:13:41 AM
Honestly,from what I'm reading from you,you just want a tractor that runs like a top fuel. That ain't a gonna happen. You need to choose one or the other. That said,there's no reason what you have now can't be made to work much,much,much better with some ignition and fuel tuning that suits your combo. Your timing is off and so is the fueling.

bingo lol i do want a tractor but with a little more punch. i do not need a top fuel but added the cam in hopes of a little more punch. one thing to remember is in the turbo ford post , wessk has degree'd these cams and he says regardless of what engle cams says they have all been 20* or so higher in duration at the valve vs what the cam card says.Yeah,it was on the internet so it must be true..............I doubt he is correct though. This BS of at the cam and at the valve talk is just shadetree mechanics that do not understand. I don't really care if the guy is respected on that forum or not. I am calling BS on it. Yes there can be some small variations but not 20 degrees. All cams have been historically degreed at .050 valve lift and some use .020. There is a reason for this . the initial ramp on a cam is there to take up lash and has almost zero influence on the cams characteristics. If we were to degree the cam from the start of the ramp and compare 10 cams from the same maker you would see some differences from the now preferred method of using lobe centerline that is much more accurate. total lift has been consistant.This confirms what I just said. i can alter timing through tuner studio while the engine is running but i wasn't/ am not understanding how to set timing for max vac. this part alludes me as of right now. Compare the kpa at idle.You already have 57kpa or so and if it can be lowered to even less with initial timing that is what you need to do.This is the starting point for all other tuning. After you achieve your highest vac at idle (lower kpa)you will play with AFR at idle for best quality then you will go back to see if you can find a bit more vac. When you can find no improvement there it is time to move on up the rpm range,not before.

as far as the turbo goes. i took what i read on the sites and talked to the turbo builder who is familiar with the t3/t4 turbonetics. plenty of guys running the holset turbos out there on these little engines. he said this config/ hypbrid holset turbo would spool faster than the t3/t4 and he's right....once it starts to spool it spools up faster to a point. however what i have since learned from several running the holset turbo, that these turbos are like light switch's. they are all about the two step launch's and i am not.  the guy at delta cams did tell me i made the wrong turbo choice for this engine as the holset is a larger frame turbo built for a larger volume to spool it. this explains to me anyway why it's like a light switch as it doesn't get that volume until higher rpms.  With too lean an off boost tune you will not have the volume you need either.I don't believe you should be listening to some of those posters at all. Again,beating a dead horse ;) but you need your off boost tuned better. OR you can take the easy way out and just be a copier of others combos and live with what you get. :)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 09:14:14 AM
here is a sticky on stingers sight.


Post by Stinger on Jul 10, 2010 at 1:07am
Verify Commanded = Actual Timing
When messing with the timing table, the first priority is to make sure what is commanded on the laptop is the same as the timing number at the engine.

In TunerStudio, go to basic setup > more ignition options > fixed advance and change it from "use table" to "fixed timing". Then make sure "timing for fixed advance is set to 20". This will lock the commanded timing at 20 degrees. With the engine running, put a timing light on the #1 plug wire and point it at the crank pulley. Verify that timing is at 20 degrees BTDC. If it isn't, rotate the distributor until the timing is 20 degrees BTDC. Tighten up the distributor hold down, verify timing is still 20 degrees, then go into the same location in TunerStudio and put it back to "use table".

Ideal Timing Theory
Timing is somewhat difficult to explain, way more difficult than fuel. Ideal timing varies from engine to engine for a number of different reasons.

The only proper way to find ideal timing for your particular engine is to put it on a dyno and start testing. When testing on a dyno, you start with timing below where you think "ideal" is and make a pull, add a degree, make another pull. If you picked up significant power on the second pull (6+hp) then add another degree and make another pull. Continue this trend until you get to a point where the hp gain tapers off (only gain a few hp). Remove 2 degrees from this point and that should be a "safe" timing value.

Since most of you will never get on a dyno to do tuning, your best bet is to simply start with a timing map that should be close but conservative (safe) and just use it. If you do testing at the track and find adding a degree or two picks up trap speed then that is great. If you don't gain any mph though, adding timing will only hurt the engine.

The general theory is timing under vacuum can be quite high and will let it cruise around and drive down the highway best with quite a bit of timing to get these little engines to make some power without boost. Once you are running boost, you want timing to be lowest at the rpm where you first reach max boost and then it can slowly increase as rpm increases (going right in the table). You also want timing to decrease as you move up in the table under boost (more boost requires less timing to prevent detonation). So in general, once in boost (above 100% fuel and at an rpm high enough to build boost), the timing numbers will get lower as you move up and higher as you move right.

Idle Timing
Note that the table below has increased timing to the left of the idle cells. This is so if the engine bogs and tries to die when you put it in gear, release the clutch, etc., it will get into those cells with increased timing and this will increase the hp and help to keep the engine from stalling.

Generally there is some amount of "stall saver" timing built into any file you get from us. More can certainly be beneficial. To adjust this, at your target idle speed (typically in the 950-1000 range with a 2.3 or large cam V8) you run purposefully less than ideal timing. I would set the bin the car is actually idling at in this range to about 15 degrees with a factory cam, or 20 with a larger cam. This will require increased idle duty to get the car to idle.

Then in the next rpm column below idle speed (and "up" one cell in terms of load % as well), run a solid 4-5 degrees more timing. This way, if speed drops, the extra timing (which is actually closer to the ideal timing for that set of conditions) will force the engine to accelerate. The idle will also be more stable with the increased airflow/low timing.

With idle timing, engines are always more stable with more airflow, and less timing. When you use close to optimum timing, the engine will be more responsive (which is not necessarily what you want if you don't want speed to change).

The above assumes your wideband is calibrated properly, and the idle fueling (covered in the Tuning Fuel/VE thread) and commanded pulsewidths are reasonable.

The timing table many of you get by default with your Megasquirt system is WAY too aggressive and doesn't follow the timing basics (such as that timing can increase as rpm increases and that timing is lowest when max boost is first reached). My advice would be to start with something similar to what is shown below:

Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/1003/megasquirt-tuning-basics-timing#ixzz4ritMCQ00
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 09:17:14 AM
if i'm not mistaken i am dropping to 600 rpm or slightly higher on take off. and yes that table is diff than my current that enemy posted.....i don't know why as it came from stinger.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 09:22:43 AM
I know Jon speaks it but he is tuning it like a pretty much stocker with a turbo added. It shows in the tune charts.  You have a cammed up engine that will require significantly different tune. If the tune is off on a stocker the engine will overlook it a bit. With a cammed up engine not so much. You are not overly cammed though by any stretch of the imagination.

If you have any exhaust leaks before the O2 sensor ,or even after since O2 can and will revert into the exhaust for a long way, you will have zero luck getting it to run well period no matter your combo. interesting thing is my cam card duration isn't much diff however now after being informed that my actual duration might be 20* longer i just don't know. so far the delta cam card is correct at valves/ head.

 I'd like to have seen a log more than your settings also. IMO,you're just throwing in the towel way too soon.

lol not really just falling back to what i know works then i'll move forward. i have read several articles on overlap and turbo charged engines. the one constant in all is overlap creates a cooling effect on exh temps for turbo spool up. add the cooler e85 exh and i take that as a compound effect. the one member on turbo ford that has built a couple engines for offroad rangeres said he has had best results for low end tq with the cams with 0 overlap for max cyl psi and higher total valve lift with lower duration times. this is a pic of his cam card from delta cams

i do know that on the 02 and that's why i began checking when the afr's kept getting leaner and leaner, according to gauge.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 09:38:21 AM
fyi dougs rail has the same timing map as mine. after driving those rails there is no denying those combos work very well for bottom end. there is no denying that fact, that is where i need to get to, then go from there. i know there is room for improvement from there. as it sits right now it isn't derivable for ls even. not for myself anyway! i really think i could stay in 1st gear for all of ls as i have to stay in the 3 to 6k rpm range for any power. hard to understand until you drive it. at the very least a smaller turbo
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 09:44:29 AM
Correct me if I am mistaken but aren't these single overhead cam engines? If so ,there is no way to set it with zero overlap. Overlap is what it is. That COULD be done with dual overheads though.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 10:51:51 AM
yes, single overhead cam....mine with stock HLa's lash adjuster. i think 1.64 to 1 ratio rocker

i don't know $hit about cams or cam profiles or duration or overlap etc etc other than the obvious use of the term.

i do not believe everything i read on line ....again talking about falling back to a proven combo with my timing map as it is the same in dougs. night and day diff in how they run. only real diff is i have 130 inj's he has 100's and i have 9 to 1 comp on a fresh motor and he has 8 to1 and a higher mileage motor. same harness and same ecu, and same fuel as he used mine as i couldn't. i have a higher volume intank pump he has a bosch 044 frame rail mount. those two rails have the next larger dia valve than i do but same roller rocker and hla's.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 11:53:05 AM
the way enemy has been tuning this motor is to get the afr range safe before making any changes to timing or anything else. haven't had a lot of run time. when i told him the take off was poor we started looking at other things. the last day at st a the afr gauge started reading lean as in 16.9 at times so between that and barely being able to take off i shut it down and parked it. have to have a solid afr map first before anything else.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
this was wessk's statement.......


What did you ever figure out with the items I told you to look into? Never heard response on forum. As bad as you said off idle transient response was, there is certainly some issue, regardless of where it makes boost.

That being said, if sub 3000 rpm power is important to you, most of the "racey" things people do to these is directionally wrong. The small EFR would certainly be a good selection, but if you want to make power with small displacement, gearing it so it can turn RPM is critical.

What valve lift is your head good for currently? Directionally, I think you would be most happy with having your existing Engle ground for less duration and the most lift you can package. Engles valve events on that card are at the lobe not valve. This means that that "222/218" is really "246/242" at the valve. If you want to compare it to an Esslinger or Snyder grind, they are at the valve.

Snyder will grind it however you want for under 200$ on your existing cam. Determine how much lift you can safely package, and have 20 degrees duration chopped off and I think you will be happy all around.



Lots of people have experience with similar camshafts. None of these people have your gearing and tires.

I ran one 10 years ago in mustang, and had one in my RX7 until I stuck a valve and damaged the #1 exhaust lobe. I played around with a few essy grinds, and that is when I figured out the Engle is lobe lift, and when comparing to other 2.3 cams it will act about 20 degrees bigger. I ultimately had my Engle re ground for a touch more lift,and a touch less duration.

My application is a 2700 lb weight car, with a 3.97 first, and a 3.73 rear end. I have ZERO use for sub 3000 rpm power, and as long as the engine will run and slowly accelerate the car, I don't care what it does there.

Unless you want to try a stock ranger cam, the cheapest (and best) thing for you to do is have your existing roller re ground. Directionally it is very easy to go in the direction that will improve low speed performance. Keep the lift up where it is, shrink duration to the 220 at the valve range, and keep LSA at the 112 those cams typically are. If you are planning on a turbo like the EFR, the intake and exhaust duration can be about the same. If you are going to a t3/t4 with a small exhaust housing, I would run 10 degrees less exhaust duration.

If you want good boost below 3000 rpm, you absolutely need a different turbo than you have.

It is VERY easy to check in the car. I can say with 100% certainty my Engle measure 20 degrees bigger that that cam card, and 10 degrees larger than a 2277.

As has been pointed out though, sub 3000 rpm power is never what anyone builds one of these for. If you can't easily gear to actually spin the combo, you would be much happier with a smaller turbo and ranger cam.

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 12:14:25 PM
True,you have issues with likely intake leaks either before or after the O2 sensor. Fix that ,of course,first. That does not preclude the fact that with that cam off boost is too lean afr targets and it will not run well too lean or with bad timing settings.  Each is inter related and both must be approached without excluding the other since each will affect the other whenever either is changed.

 Addressing another point about dynos and tuning there is absolutely no reason that with data logging you can't do as good as and probably better job tuning than any dyno session. Dyno sessions are great for getting well within the ballpark but real world tuning will always be best in the end. IMO........... ;) ;) :)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
this was wessk's statement.......


What did you ever figure out with the items I told you to look into? Never heard response on forum. As bad as you said off idle transient response was, there is certainly some issue, regardless of where it makes boost.

That being said, if sub 3000 rpm power is important to you, most of the "racey" things people do to these is directionally wrong. The small EFR would certainly be a good selection, but if you want to make power with small displacement, gearing it so it can turn RPM is critical.

What valve lift is your head good for currently? Directionally, I think you would be most happy with having your existing Engle ground for less duration and the most lift you can package. Engles valve events on that card are at the lobe not valve. This means that that "222/218" is really "246/242" at the valve. If you want to compare it to an Esslinger or Snyder grind, they are at the valve.

Snyder will grind it however you want for under 200$ on your existing cam. Determine how much lift you can safely package, and have 20 degrees duration chopped off and I think you will be happy all around.



Lots of people have experience with similar camshafts. None of these people have your gearing and tires.

I ran one 10 years ago in mustang, and had one in my RX7 until I stuck a valve and damaged the #1 exhaust lobe. I played around with a few essy grinds, and that is when I figured out the Engle is lobe lift, and when comparing to other 2.3 cams it will act about 20 degrees bigger. I ultimately had my Engle re ground for a touch more lift,and a touch less duration.

My application is a 2700 lb weight car, with a 3.97 first, and a 3.73 rear end. I have ZERO use for sub 3000 rpm power, and as long as the engine will run and slowly accelerate the car, I don't care what it does there.

Unless you want to try a stock ranger cam, the cheapest (and best) thing for you to do is have your existing roller re ground. Directionally it is very easy to go in the direction that will improve low speed performance. Keep the lift up where it is, shrink duration to the 220 at the valve range, and keep LSA at the 112 those cams typically are. If you are planning on a turbo like the EFR, the intake and exhaust duration can be about the same. If you are going to a t3/t4 with a small exhaust housing, I would run 10 degrees less exhaust duration.

If you want good boost below 3000 rpm, you absolutely need a different turbo than you have.

It is VERY easy to check in the car. I can say with 100% certainty my Engle measure 20 degrees bigger that that cam card, and 10 degrees larger than a 2277.

As has been pointed out though, sub 3000 rpm power is never what anyone builds one of these for. If you can't easily gear to actually spin the combo, you would be much happier with a smaller turbo and ranger cam.
I read everything in your topic there. I don't disagree with what he said above but for the at the cam and at the valve crap. That's not terms cam people use to discuss cams and has very little relevance when comparing cams either. IMO,it's just internet talk.  That said,what is written above is pretty accurate . His point about even with a bit large turbo you should not be experiencing what you are is experiencing is echoing all I have been saying as well. You have issues that are not,in our opinions,related to the cam. That doesn't mean there may likely be a better cam but the one you have should not be the cause of the issue you are having.   His last paragraph is spot on for sure.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 12:42:16 PM
I can only guess that when these guys discuss at the valve and at the cam they are not starting their degreeing at either .020 or .050 cam lift. That could be why he is seeing 20 degrees difference. The clearance ramps can be vastly different between cams and that is why the .020 and .050 became the standard.Eventually,most people I know went to lobe centerlines to further define cam timing since opening/closing  numbers can be misleading when considering where max valve lift occurs. 

After you have fixed all mechanical issues you have such as air leaks and overall gearing then tuned it as best it can be if you are still unsatisfied I'd take his advice on the cam regrind. I agree with him on that for sure.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 12:45:59 PM
I don't recall over there but did you get your answer what,if any,optional gear ratios you have available?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 01:34:42 PM
I don't recall over there but did you get your answer what,if any,optional gear ratios you have available?

nope still haven't heard back so this winter may be a change altogether on trans. he said he has r&p sets but wasn't sure which ratios and that he would check and get back to me. crazy part is doug has same gear ratios as i. supposedly he may have 4.86 r&p which would be 2 steps deeper than my 4.43.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 01:35:30 PM
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 01:36:59 PM
I can only guess that when these guys discuss at the valve and at the cam they are not starting their degreeing at either .020 or .050 cam lift. That could be why he is seeing 20 degrees difference. The clearance ramps can be vastly different between cams and that is why the .020 and .050 became the standard.Eventually,most people I know went to lobe centerlines to further define cam timing since opening/closing  numbers can be misleading when considering where max valve lift occurs. 

After you have fixed all mechanical issues you have such as air leaks and overall gearing then tuned it as best it can be if you are still unsatisfied I'd take his advice on the cam regrind. I agree with him on that for sure.

wessk and stinger are the ones that put the base fuel and timing maps together.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 01:47:18 PM
well i just retarded the timing 3* and no noticeable change on take off, audible change in sound of exhaust. i did advance it once and saw no diff but will do it again in a few mins  and see.

was watching the afr gauge and under boost i saw 11.5 to 12 then let off to level out so basically very low to off boost the gauge read 15.9 15. cannot find a leak even tried shooting windex on the joints on cold start up and warmed up.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 02:30:53 PM
ok so set back to 0 mark and advanced 4*.....exh sounds right again and no huge diff in take off. def better than retarding the cam!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 05:06:37 PM
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 05:10:00 PM
well i just retarded the timing 3* and no noticeable change on take off, audible change in sound of exhaust. i did advance it once and saw no diff but will do it again in a few mins  and see.

was watching the afr gauge and under boost i saw 11.5 to 12 then let off to level out so basically very low to off boost the gauge read 15.9 15. cannot find a leak even tried shooting windex on the joints on cold start up and warmed up.
Do the unlit propane torch thing to make absolutely sure. Watch the afr while car is idling. Any spikes will show a leak.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 05:23:15 PM
ok so set back to 0 mark and advanced 4*.....exh sounds right again and no huge diff in take off. def better than retarding the cam!
This was mentioned in the other thread and caught my attention as well as the responder. That is bass akwards.  If it were me,I know I would get a real degree wheel on the crank and verify there is not an issue with the cam lobes indexing to the key/dowel/whatever. If you can't get cam degree card to agree with what you find then there is your problem. That would advance/retard your cam perhaps a lot and be a plausible cause of your issues. Advancing the cam and possibly slightly seeing an improvement in take off would possibly indicate a way retarded cam and advancing it makes it more "right" and makes me think it is very possible. It's rare but it can happen since the cam ,if checked in QC, will likely only verify valve events of intake lobe in relation to the exhaust lobe. Rare,but anything is possible. Along that line of thought,is there any remote possibility the cam is installed one tooth off? Rare also,but anything is possible,we're human.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 05:34:06 PM
well i just retarded the timing 3* and no noticeable change on take off, audible change in sound of exhaust. i did advance it once and saw no diff but will do it again in a few mins  and see.

was watching the afr gauge and under boost i saw 11.5 to 12 then let off to level out so basically very low to off boost the gauge read 15.9 15. cannot find a leak even tried shooting windex on the joints on cold start up and warmed up.
How far from end of exhaust outlet is your O2 sensor?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 06:54:03 PM
How far from end of exhaust outlet is your O2 sensor?

10.5" and 3.5 od pipe
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 07:07:19 PM
big pipe,close to the end=O2 reverting into pipe. Can you move it a lot further up?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 07:20:27 PM
This was mentioned in the other thread and caught my attention as well as the responder. That is bass akwards.  If it were me,I know I would get a real degree wheel on the crank and verify there is not an issue with the cam lobes indexing to the key/dowel/whatever. If you can't get cam degree card to agree with what you find then there is your problem. That would advance/retard your cam perhaps a lot and be a plausible cause of your issues. Advancing the cam and possibly slightly seeing an improvement in take off would possibly indicate a way retarded cam and advancing it makes it more "right" and makes me think it is very possible. It's rare but it can happen since the cam ,if checked in QC, will likely only verify valve events of intake lobe in relation to the exhaust lobe. Rare,but anything is possible. Along that line of thought,is there any remote possibility the cam is installed one tooth off? Rare also,but anything is possible,we're human.

i am positive it is not one tooth off. i even marked the belt and gear to easily make sure the belt didn't slip. i used a an end caliper with magnetic base and extension to cyl 1. found the beggining and end of tdc, rock over if you want to call it. measured between the marks and set tdc at that point and then zero'd out the cam using the method as speedway described which can be found on stinger, turbo ford etc etc. anything is possible but i have my doubts.

on another note i can tell you that advancing the cam 8* sounds like retarding it 3* .......come to find out each mark on the cam gear is 2 * not 1. when i bought this aluminum adjustable round tooth timing gear set the ad said adjustable in 1* increments. well per the instructions.....each mark is 2* so not sure which one is correct! also all cam websites say advance to increase bottom end and retard for top so i think speedway got that part wrong. before i realized this a couple weeks before st a trip ( the timing marks that is) i did start the motor and run it twice. not 7k rpm pulls just runs.  so anyways i can say that at 8* it makes the exh sound just like when retarded 3* so at 0 to 4* advnced is the better area.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 07:23:59 PM
big pipe,close to the end=O2 reverting into pipe. Can you move it a lot further up?


i have to build a new pipe anyway so i can try but 02 instructions says 18" apprx away from turbo. so where i couldn't go 18" i went about half way. it worked fine up till st a trip then made a change to the tune and it all changed. just got the turbo and dp off and it does look like the internal winding of the flex coupler may have seperated in one spot but since it was thermal coated inside and out it's hard to see.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 07:48:15 PM
i am positive it is not one tooth off. i even marked the belt and gear to easily make sure the belt didn't slip. i used a an end caliper with magnetic base and extension to cyl 1. found the beggining and end of tdc, rock over if you want to call it. measured between the marks and set tdc at that point and then zero'd out the cam using the method as speedway described which can be found on stinger, turbo ford etc etc. anything is possible but i have my doubts.

on another note i can tell you that advancing the cam 8* sounds like retarding it 3* .......come to find out each mark on the cam gear is 2 * not 1. when i bought this aluminum adjustable round tooth timing gear set the ad said adjustable in 1* increments. well per the instructions.....each mark is 2* so not sure which one is correct! also all cam websites say advance to increase bottom end and retard for top so i think speedway got that part wrong. before i realized this a couple weeks before st a trip ( the timing marks that is) i did start the motor and run it twice. not 7k rpm pulls just runs.  so anyways i can say that at 8* it makes the exh sound just like when retarded 3* so at 0 to 4* advnced is the better area.
This is correct as per industry common practice.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 04, 2017, 08:08:38 PM
well then there ad is misleading but know now. also 8* advanced doesn't do any good infact a little worse lol

on another note enemy has been doing a good job tuning this for me. barley got a safe afr tune down before the st a trip and figured we would do some more while there but afr's started changing very slightly until the last day after a data log and auto tune then was off quite a bit. so he's going to put previous tune in and see what that does just to be sure. i'm going to swap the turbo with this cam and see what it does. this turbonetics t3/t4 has a .68 ar but smaller exh wheel and housing but is a 50 trim like the stock garrett which i do have as well. also have a .48 ar exh for this turbo to try as well before i swap the cam,
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on September 04, 2017, 08:49:50 PM
Yes ,Jon is doing a fine job in boost he just needs to richen up the off boost area for your cam. Where is that dead horse? I feel like beating one. ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on September 19, 2017, 10:05:11 AM
well swapped cams. def better on take off. i put the holset turbo back on with rr cam just to see how it does. its spooling a little sooner but not quick enough. i have a 50 trim t3\t4 turbonetics on loan from enemy i`ll have to fit and parts are ordered just a week out. had a .63 exh housing on it and a .48 with it. i swapped out to the .48, i want it in asap! lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 24, 2017, 01:11:53 PM
ok so got it all up and running again. runs pretty good and 14 psi boost by 2700 rpm now vs 1-2 by 2800 before so def better in that aspect. def lost some tq at the entrance of mid range but not a huge issue. sun though....when enemy stopped out to make a few laps in the new turbo busa build......we took mine out and did a little tuning on it. upon further viewing the data looks as if my walbro 450 fuel pump is dieing. well at st a, enemy took mine for a spin and said at higher rpm it felt like it was flat running out of fuel. now the data shows that at 4500 rpm and above it is running out of fuel to a point. so i looked at a1000 pumps and magnafuel pumps. not a lot of real info on the magnafuel pro tuner 750 pump series out there but what i found were good statements and 1 bad one. they rate the pumps by hp rather than flow. what i found surprising is i read the a1000 by aeromotive is only a 90 psi max and 397lph. unless that was a mis typed error that is less than my walbro 450 is rated for so went with the 750 pro tuner pump. called and talked to techs this am and thy said there 525 would be a better choice and even though there site doesnt say so that all there pumps are rated for e85 use. now he did tell me that i need to feed the pump via an10 or 12 and that my tank vent needs to be atleast an8. an8 fuel feed line to injs is min and i should be good there. so the 2000 hp capable rating on the pump is pump fuel and n\a appearantly. so he said on e85 boosted prob closer to 1200 hp. still waaaaaay farter than it will ever! be but still wth. no time to return it and get the 525 so i will have to alter the tank again. i have seen the a1000 on several rails but that 90 psi max concerned me and th 397 lph rating as at 30 psi i`ll be very close to 80 psi fuel.         any thoughts anyone?
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 24, 2017, 01:23:50 PM
btw .....with this stock cam and t3 t4 turbonetics turbo i am 14 psi at 2700 rpm. that is because we have not activated the boost controller yet so spring in wg is 14 lb. this cam is suppose to start falling off at 5200rpm but feels solid to 6k rpm. now my end goal ( it will happen) is 30 psi boost! will i use it much....prob not but i will have it when i want it!!  rofl rofl LMAO LMAO ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: budlight69 on October 24, 2017, 04:39:32 PM
I have heard the aeromotive are good, my buddy Mike runs one, 400 HP.  I run the outfront Pierburg fuel pump.  $220  Good so far

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/fuel_rails_and_injectors.htm (http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/fuel_rails_and_injectors.htm)

Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 24, 2017, 04:46:54 PM
thanks for the info....i assume that bosch they reference is the 044 style? those are not rated for e85 but do work a while. what base fuel psi is mike running and what boost presure is the rising rate reg seeing so in other words how high of a fuel psi is mike seeing at full boost,
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on October 24, 2017, 08:23:47 PM
I had a brand new aeromotive A1000 chew itself apart in a couple trips. I sent it back and they took care of it. They said that fuel flow was the issue.  I ran -8 in and -6 out. According to the tech my fuel lab filters were too restrictive and caused internal cavitation that chewed it up. They were very helpful and my case may have been a one off issue. The A1000 is also very loud in a car with a quiet exhaust like mine. I went back to the Bosch and its is quiet and works perfect for my motor.
I have run a Aeromotive A2000 in my fairlane for about 8 years with no issues at all but that's for a carb motor.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: Punkur67 on October 24, 2017, 08:24:55 PM
I have heard the aeromotive are good, my buddy Mike runs one, 400 HP.  I run the outfront Pierburg fuel pump.  $220  Good so far

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/fuel_rails_and_injectors.htm (http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/fuel_rails_and_injectors.htm)
We have run these and the Bosch with great success
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 25, 2017, 06:56:26 AM
good info. i did find an actual flow chart on aeromotives site last night. it would work but again the 90psi max rating kind of stopped me. this pump i ordered is to big for my needs and goals. the rep said it will work but will just return more fuel back to the tank. there pro tuner 525 series would be a better fit over the pro tuner 750 series. speedway is on the way home and they sell the a1000 and aeromotive pre and post filters. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: budlight69 on October 25, 2017, 08:24:33 AM
thanks for the info....i assume that bosch they reference is the 044 style? those are not rated for e85 but do work a while. what base fuel psi is mike running and what boost presure is the rising rate reg seeing so in other words how high of a fuel psi is mike seeing at full boost,

I think he runs 45 psi, with 15 pounds boost, so 60 psi max. 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 25, 2017, 07:38:12 PM
well i stopped at speedway motors on the way home. bought all the fittings and a1000 pump along with aeromotive 100 micron pre filter. boy are they proud of there parts lol it flows more fuel than i  need just isnt the 120 psi i wanted. its 90 psi max and i should at the most only require 75 psi and sldom at that.  i dont have a week to return the pro tuner 750 and wait for the pro tuner 525. bought an 10 for feed from tank through pre filter to pump. an8 out of pump to 4 micron 250 gph filter theen an8 to rail and all of return line. now i have to pull the tip over vent i have and go 1\2" line for vent. there shouldn`t be any restriction with this.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 30, 2017, 11:15:23 AM
installed and fired off sat.  def louder than the in tank pump but outside with engine running cannot hear it. now fuel reg was set at 45psi before w\o vac connected. fired up with new a1000 pump and sitting rock solid at 55psi lol adjusted it back to 45 psi and will have to make a few runs to re tune. sad to loose my fuel gauge but iall figure something out. just need to get 1 wire through tank to sender and i can attach and hook it back up. but now an10 from tank to pump through the aeromotive 100 micron pre filter to pump then an8 feed and return. put a larger tank vent in too.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on October 30, 2017, 05:10:42 PM
well swapped cams. def better on take off. i put the holset turbo back on with rr cam just to see how it does. its spooling a little sooner but not quick enough. i have a 50 trim t3\t4 turbonetics on loan from enemy i`ll have to fit and parts are ordered just a week out. had a .63 exh housing on it and a .48 with it. i swapped out to the .48, i want it in asap! lol
Along those lines ,I have been looking into using a '15-'16 supercharged LT4 Corvette engine after I blow up the engine I have now. I'll tell more about that in the desert car thread. I'm going to run the shit out of it when it goes back together. SOB.  Anyway,450 #ft. at idle,650 #ft. @ 2000 rpm and stays there till around 6200. 650HP.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 30, 2017, 06:52:02 PM
Along those lines ,I have been looking into using a '15-'16 supercharged LT4 Corvette engine after I blow up the engine I have now. I'll tell more about that in the desert car thread. I'm going to run the shit out of it when it goes back together. SOB.  Anyway,450 #ft. at idle,650 #ft. @ 2000 rpm and stays there till around 6200. 650HP.

that will be damn impressive but i thought you got yours fixed and prob run quite a while!!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: budlight69 on October 31, 2017, 02:37:02 PM
looking good DS.  What HP are you shooting for with 30 lbs boost and 100 psi fuel?  600?  What can you get when you really wring these out tight?  And do they last? 
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on October 31, 2017, 03:37:46 PM
they will last no doubt especially with the parts i put in it. as far as hp   really no hp goals just 30 psi boost just because i know the motor will take it lol i know one guy that put 45 psi to his, 3 times in a days ride.  it blew on the 3rd shot of 45 psi boost, through a rod. he was running stock rods and poor aftermarket forged pistons, stock crank too. i believe his was 360 hp at 20 psi boost on the dyno but don't quote me on that. if i was willing to pony up for a bo port stage III head i could jump another 75 hp maybe 100 hp with his ported head, cam and valve set up but not going to do that as i will need a diff trans before that.  a1000 puts out 90 psi max and says in the instructions that come with it but not in anyones ads!!!! ( go figure) says not to exceed 70 psi for more than 30 minutes. also says not for daily driving use. it puts out double the flow of the walbro 450 at 70 psi. walbro was either bad or not capable of flowing enough fuel efficiently to support 130lb inj's at 14 psi to 6k rpm so had to do something. seriously doubt it will make 600 hp at 30 psi boost. but that would be fun
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 03:25:40 PM
this guys video's i find very informative. i had no idea that these options existed in tuner studio/megalog hd!

https://youtu.be/KSUUVuSqRCY
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 03:48:21 PM
https://youtu.be/TwqxNbzSuuQ
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on December 09, 2017, 05:04:12 PM
Hmmmmmm,very interesting.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 06:00:22 PM
i agree.......i know accel enrichment is a engine by engine tune and can be tricky but with that tutorial i believe once a person sets that graph up like .....imo should make it easier. one would hope lol the spark knock graph to tune that way i really like. his version of megalogger hd is older than mine so i`ll have to look around on that to see if any changes have been made. once the tun is closer that would be a good option.
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 06:06:15 PM
spent countless hrs......which is meaningless as i am bored beyond for a few more weeks! but spent countless hrs searching for an online calculator or formula to convert the dead time v values from my inj data sheet into % rates as pimpxs ms3 uses % vs ms. an initial ms for base control which come to find out is based on 13.2v @100% and 43.5 flow. mine were flow tested and flowed 1139 to 1145 cc at 43.5 psi. there is a dead time voltage curve i can input this data into for a more refined control. also included is a table for small pulse width curve. so i got that data also. apperantly most pick a dead time rate based on other infor from other inj`s by many manufacturers and used that rough dead time and the default deadtime curve. then tune from that and i can see that if you dont have the info but since i`m bored and have the info i wanted to know lol
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 07:14:42 PM
i am learning as much as i can about this system.....i'll not learn it all but still. until recently i understood injectors but did not know how important certain information was and how diff systems reference it. i have just about changed enough for cold start up that it starts at 41* so far. starts decent but a little chuggy still. from what i have read and watched in the last few days( yes days!lol) i have learned that if the inj dead times are close it can be tuned accordingly but if they are off enough it will effect idle and both cold and hot restart. now that is still not off to far in dead time ms as in 1.50 compared to should be 1.20. in my case we entered 1.2 ms and fuel injector development (fid) says my actual dead time for my inj's is 1.03 @13.2v based on 43.5 psi base. asked this question every way i could think of on stingers site and could not get a  straight answer from a certain guy and no response from another and they sell both the ms3 and inj's and know the data sheets don't show up in the format they need to for the ecu's they sell! the instructions they send for start up leave a lot to be desired as well. found some posts in 2 diff forums....one says to multi or divide ms# by 64 to get % or divide % by to get ms#. i don't have enough of a graph to verify that but rounded up to the nearest hundredths it's really close. the only other reference i could find was to multiply ms by 1100 and use the first 3 digits.......sound safe?? amazingly it works rounded up again but only on two points of my graph. my alternator is rock solid while the engine is running, but batt drops to 10 ish v's while cranking so that dead time voltage correction curve helps compensate but based on a % rather than ms rate to compensate for more sluggish response times. now that coupled with the fact that i never adjusted ms3 voltage reading to match my batt gauge, volt meter reading at batt and power point at fuse block , adds to the issue. it was off by .2 volts. not huge but again throws voltage correction curve off a bit. my base ms dead time is set at 1.2 and should be 1.03 so will change the tune changing that setting along with entering correct info into volt corr curve.     it all takes time and depends on how precise one wants to get i guess but if i have the info i might as well make use of it!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on December 09, 2017, 08:00:18 PM
pics of TS section and of what the inj data sheet is and what fid recalculated to


(https://s33.postimg.org/tx61fplor/Capture.png) (https://postimg.org/image/tx61fplor/)

(https://s33.postimg.org/d9ejd7ymz/thumbnail_IMG_20171207_101305.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/d9ejd7ymz/)

(https://s33.postimg.org/ebopvtubv/Capture.png) (https://postimg.org/image/ebopvtubv/)
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on January 10, 2018, 06:54:15 PM
https://dunebuggywarehouse.com/starters/vw-tdi-starter-and-adapter-plate-for-vw-beetle-sedan-transmission-3-rib-and-5-rib.html

1.6kw vs 1.4 kw with the high tq starter
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on January 10, 2018, 07:51:43 PM
IIRC my Meziere is 3KW.  It spins my 14:1 like I left the plugs out.   :m
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: dsrace on January 10, 2018, 08:02:38 PM
 well if i had that option i would lol hightq makes a 2kw model but its expensive!
Title: Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
Post by: fabr on January 10, 2018, 08:47:35 PM
We don't even want to talk price of the Meziere.......................... Sort of the old saying,if ya gotta ask how much you don't need it. Or in my case,I had zero other options.  AND I had to modify the damn thing as well.  5: Talk about adding insult to $$injury. Oh well. :nw