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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: dsrace on December 05, 2013, 09:50:08 PM

Title: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 05, 2013, 09:50:08 PM
ok just some back ground on this repair well repair if possible lol    I got a call from a guy that transman built a trans for. he said he heard from transman that I was the person to take his rail to to get the front end fixed. he brings me the rail and tells me he bought it new about 4 years ago from the buggy shop in hutch Kansas and that it steers hard and he has trouble keeping it in a straight line. he payed $1k more than I sold my personal v6 rail for at that time and told me he saw mine for sale when he bought this one new. for some reason he wanted new over used and this one has a supercharged 3.8 series II v6.  I  dropped the limit strap and jacked the front end up so the shocks are fully extended but with the tires still touching the ground and yes the tie rods are still attached in the video.   remember this was set up by the buggy shop and is his design and he sells these!! sorry the video is sideways but didn't have time to fix.

http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/1205132142_zpsd5eb9170.mp4.html?sort=3&o=6 (http://s218.photobucket.com/user/dsrace/media/1205132142_zpsd5eb9170.mp4.html?sort=3&o=6)
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Enemy on December 05, 2013, 10:41:38 PM
In my upinyon, dat dare iz sum qwalitee SHIT
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 05, 2013, 10:46:56 PM
Is there a problem with that?




































Wow is about all I can say. eyes eyes  WHat really amazes me is that "reputable" shops get away with this stuff.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 06, 2013, 05:16:50 AM
He can consider himself lucky to have got it off the trailer.  I seen first hand some of the crap that comes from the Buggy shop up there. Welds look like a three year old been playing with dad's cracker box.  Walk into his shop and the smell of weed hits you in face like a ton of brick.  This guy should have been shut down a long time ago. 
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Carlriddle on December 06, 2013, 05:34:37 AM
Wow we got some haters here, its the season for forgiving.  Sarcasm rofl rofl
Ds sent me a text saying it has more toe change than wheel travel. 
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Yummi on December 06, 2013, 05:51:57 AM
Seems to me the easy solution would be to remove the shocks, insert steel rods to limit the travel and then run it in parking lots and or park it in the garage.  Course you will loose some travel with my suggestion, so there may be better ways?
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Carlriddle on December 06, 2013, 09:13:56 AM
I bet it be fun to run the trails at LS with.  :o :o

And Enemy's acting skillz are second to none.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2013, 09:47:19 AM
He can consider himself lucky to have got it off the trailer.  I seen first hand some of the crap that comes from the Buggy shop up there. Welds look like a three year old been playing with dad's cracker box.  Walk into his shop and the smell of weed hits you in face like a ton of brick.  This guy should have been shut down a long time ago. 
The person responsible for the crap in the vid was an idiot way before he touched any weed. Weed doesn't make you stupid,weed makes a stupid person ,wellllllll still a stupid person. ;D ;D
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
pics     personal favorite of mine is that the a-arm tabs are not welded on the inside nor gusseted and the trailing arm weld on pivot pockets in the rear are not welded on the inside either. it would've been real easy and quick to do both.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: WelderPat on December 06, 2013, 05:19:58 PM
 I was scrolling through the pics and at the bottom I see this....

"Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"

 I almost wet my self.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2013, 05:50:51 PM
 rofl rofl    those are words to live by and I met another one today!!!!!!  and I don't know how he keeps his job at burger king!! rofl rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Enemy on December 06, 2013, 05:53:53 PM
Did the same when I first read those words DS rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Enemy on December 06, 2013, 06:00:40 PM
That car just keeps getting prettier and prettier the more I look at it. I could crunch my body into that cage and my neck was sideways to fit in the seat for clearance to the roof. WITHOUT a helmet . And the butt crack feeling when you know there is zero protection under the seats!
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
I want one. It is just sooooo COOOLLLLLL!!!!! See all that great usable travel .  Sarcasm
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 06, 2013, 07:54:57 PM
ok since you can't tell from the pics I will give up some real info on the front end. the spacing, up and down, between the a - arms at the frame/cradle is 9.5" and the distance on the upright on the spindle where the a-arms bolt up is 7 7/8"........... yep ah huh bas ackwards!! along with a center load rack with an 11" spreader where they're needs to be a 15" with the offset of the steering arm on the spindle......... so on top of creating pos camber it does what????????????????? you guessed it .............major bump steer and what good are cutting tires with 3* pos camber????????????? the pics don't look as bad as it really is either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how how how how how can this guy keep his doors open selling sh%t like this???????????????????? with all the info on the net and forums like this how can one not know this is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!       bs1 eyes eyes kick rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fastcorvairs on December 06, 2013, 08:30:25 PM
ok since you can't tell from the pics I will give up some real info on the front end. the spacing, up and down, between the a - arms at the frame/cradle is 9.5" and the distance on the upright on the spindle where the a-arms bolt up is 7 7/8"........... yep ah huh bas ackwards!! along with a center load rack with an 11" spreader where they're needs to be a 15" with the offset of the steering arm on the spindle......... so on top of creating pos camber it does what????????????????? you guessed it .............major bump steer and what good are cutting tires with 3* pos camber????????????? the pics don't look as bad as it really is either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how how how how how can this guy keep his doors open selling sh%t like this???????????????????? with all the info on the net and forums like this how can one not know this is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!       bs1 eyes eyes kick rofl

I'll tell you how he keeps his doors open.  His ma ma is very rich and pays the bills.   And over looks the fact he sells and uses coke. NO not the bottled kind ether.  I was doing biz with him when he had a shop in Wichita.  The day before he filed for BK everything went missing in his shop.  Wound up in a garage down in OKC until the BK was settled. Then low and behold it all showed back up in his store up in Hutch.   
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 06, 2013, 09:33:38 PM
But as has been said many times,"there's a sucker born every minute." This guy sounds like a real piece of "work".
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: sandycrack on December 07, 2013, 08:05:43 AM
I am not a suspension design guy, but even I can see that this car has serious problems just looking at it and not seeing the video.  The lack of support in the frame is scary. 
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Carlriddle on December 07, 2013, 09:18:26 AM
95% of those who "buy" don't know better til afterwards.  There bud has one and they want one so out comes the checkbook.  I would say his repeat business is nonexsistant.   Sad!!
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 07, 2013, 09:49:21 AM
Hell,even the Chinese yard kart buggies have better geometry.  Many people that buy this stuff also don't realize it's the POS buggy design that makes it handle so poorly  and not their lack of talent in driving it.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2013, 12:52:55 PM
Hell,even the Chinese yard kart buggies have better geometry.  Many people that buy this stuff also don't realize it's the POS buggy design that makes it handle so poorly  and not their lack of talent in driving it.

the fact that he could keep it in a straight direction says he has some driving talent  rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2013, 12:57:11 PM
pics
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 07, 2013, 01:00:36 PM
a warning to all those or your friends, that are thinking about buying a rail or chassis from the buggy shop in hutchenson Kansas ....don't just don't. not unless your a big adam's family fan and think a coffin on 4 wheels with a motor is cool!!   rofl rofl

check out the upper shock mounts. I am not sure what kind of steel was used to make the frame but givin what I see in person, i'm going to guess .095 wall 1.5" od erw. now I am pretty sure if he ever bottoms out the front end and completely compress's the front shocks he will most likely know from the humps he'll see in the hood.   rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Enemy on December 07, 2013, 10:22:57 PM
And lets not forget the rear shocks that will be departing from their top mounts..Right next to you or passengers skull......not cool.

Not effin cool whatsoever.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2013, 12:52:14 AM
the fact that he could keep it in a straight direction says he has some driving talent  rofl
I'd have to see proof that he did/could. LMAO
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 08, 2013, 11:05:50 AM
that is why I carefully chose the word direction and not line..... rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

yep enemy is correct.....2.5 kings coil overs with remote resv bolted up top in single shear relying on a grade 8 bolt 1/2" dia to keep them on the frame and 5 or 6" behind the heads and aimed in that direction of course no worse the the fuel tank. if you remove the head rests you can rest your head on the tank and the driver can rest his on the filler neck!! now I know room becomes and issue sometimes but look at the pics.....there's plenty of room in the rear!!
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 08, 2013, 11:55:25 AM
Some pretty crappy stuff for sure.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 15, 2013, 11:54:21 AM
well the customer opted not to cut the front end off and install a good one! he just wants better so I told him I would do what I could but will never be right or offer the performance my front end kit do!! so I wound up moving the upper a arm tabs down 1.75" and back 1/2".....  rack mount up 1/2" clearenced the spindles because they were all bunged up where the heim jam nuts had been hitting them. I had to make special tabs to drop the upper a arm since he didn't want me to cut the upper tube to drop it. btw I weighed the latest rage aluminum spindle.....8oz's heavier than the steel combo link spindles I use!! so it was a crap ton of work but I was able to correct a lot of the front end issues. it had appr 10" of bump steer starting out from almost 7" toe out to almost 4" of toe in and 2* pos camber with only 2* caster. now it has 8* caster and -1* camber with no toe out and 3/4" toe in through a 22" stroke but he is only capable of using 18" of travel so he won't feel the full effect of the full 3/4" toe in change. if you look at the front end pics you'll see where  the tie rods are placed, this placement has problems I cannot fix and is a problem with the a-arm design. at full droop and up to the first 4" of wheel stroke they hit the upper a arm at 3/4 turn of the steering wheel. he needs taller spindles but needs a whole new front end design! the way this looks to me the buggy shop in hutch Kansas appears to be buying some brand of knock down frames like barrien or warrior meant for air cooled motors and beam front ends and altering the frames and adding a arms. it looks to me that he has copied someone else's design and has absolutely no knowledge of the that design or of front end design for that matter!

I probably shouldn't have worked on this rail but he laid a sob story on me and I felt bad for him. he paid $18k for the rail new and had to do some finish work to complete it to the point it is at. right after purchase as in 6hrs of use, the trans failed because the buggy shops idea of built is using used factory gears and he got this info from the guy building the trans for the buggy shop as he showed him the box of used gears he's givin to build them with. so he bought a supposed built trans online and wouldn't you know he bought a don's bus box special so WE ALL KNOW HOW FAST THAT ONE FAILED!! so he got in touch with transman ( shane) and had him build a good trans and no more problems in the last 1.5 years of use with his super charged 3.8 ltre with an extra 7 lbs of boost. on top of the buggy shop uses's iron 5 lug economy disc brakes on the rear that are known for breaking off on air cooled buggies!! he wound up breaking the stub axle off on the drivers side twice so he bought jamar disc brake kit to replace the brakes too. he also had to change the rear shocks so he went with king 2.5 c/o's with remote res with a dial to adjust rates on the res. I think  $800 each. plus the rail came new with poly seats so he changed them out to susp seats. so he's now in the rail about $26k!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: WelderPat on December 15, 2013, 05:56:26 PM
 They are not bad looking and have some decent parts in them .
That makes people think they are worth buying.
The average buyer knows nothing about the engineering and suspension geometry that goes in to these.
 But it sounds like you got it fairly drivable now.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 15, 2013, 09:23:02 PM
They are not bad looking and have some decent parts in them .
That makes people think they are worth buying.
The average buyer knows nothing about the engineering and suspension geometry that goes in to these.
 But it sounds like you got it fairly drivable now.

you are correct!  it will be a night and day diff on handling but not perfect.  if the people that don't know would just take a little time to visit forums such as this one, or ask someone that does know, they would save themselves a lot of headaches.  at the same time if people like this builder, took a little pride in there work, were honest, this wouldn't be a problem either. the builder can fix the issues but first has to learn many things or pay someone to do it for him.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: WelderPat on December 16, 2013, 11:27:46 AM
People can't learn from theire mistakes untill they admit they made a mistake.
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: Carlriddle on December 16, 2013, 12:56:06 PM
People can't learn from theire mistakes untill they admit they made a mistake.

Pat, this quote should make you famous. 

DS wheres the pic, and the video with Sailor Jerry doing the demo?  rofl rofl rofl
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: fabr on December 16, 2013, 05:28:52 PM
People can't learn from theire mistakes untill they admit they made a mistake.
SOOOOOOO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: front end problems
Post by: dsrace on December 16, 2013, 07:55:15 PM
lol lol  ya that is true!!  didn't save the sailor jerry's pics and I'm not saying the owner is stupid and he does now know what the builder at the buggy shop really is and your right he didn't know before but the builder has to know better if he has ever tried to drive one of his own buggies  rofl rofl rofl