DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: Wildcatfan on August 25, 2014, 09:39:25 AM
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The rear sprocket is wore on my busa buggy. I just put a brand new oem clutch kit in a few days ago. The chain was slightly loose, so of course I tightend it. When I wind first gear up to about 5k rpm it cuts out then again around 6k rpm. Just very briefly and quick. Only does it in first gear. I think it might be slipping teeth on the rear sprocket? But I am easing into the throttle. I can nail it in2,3, 4th etc and doesn't do it at all. I think if it were the teeth it would do it in second gear as well. Any suggestions?
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This the car from Lance? Post up some pics of the teeth. But I's say this, if one starts to go(bad wear) it will kill the other. The sprocket teeth have to mesh on the chain well or they will wear out the chain, if chain get too bad it will wear the teeth on sprockets. Prob best to replace all as a set. Lance should have some of the sprockets. Best O-ring chain you can afford. Be good to go for another 2-3 yrs.
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Yea, I will carlriddle when I get back home. I first thought it was the clutch so I replaced it all with new springs. Its a nice buggy so im not complaining at all ;D. Where can I get the rear sprocket for it? Front sprocket looks great btw. Chain will only move about a half to 3/4 of an inch after tightening. I know doug makes them, I havent heard from him though.
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Send doug an email, you'll find it under his info. I thought Lance pu some from Doug, depend on size you need.
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I don't have any of that size. I have others but that won't help you any. I'll talk to Doug. Worst case he'll have to get some made and that usually takes 2-3 weeks.
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Keep in mind changing that rear sprocket is ALOT of work.
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Sprockets have to be ordered (new laser run) :( Be a few weeks at least...........
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So it still clunks even after you tightened the chain? If it's as tight as you say I can't see it being the chain. Wonder if one of the CV joints has an issue? Like a cracked cage or something and once it gets moving it runs ok. Weird.
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not always but usually when a cv goes out they just break but if it was as you think lance i would think it would be making a lot of noise clicking or snapping.
wildcatfan when you say cuts out , do you mean the motor cuts out like a rev limiter or kill switch? or it just rev up to rev limit like around 10 or 11k rpm like the clutch is pushed in?
lance where is the rev limit set on that motor? 10600 factory?
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Factory rev limiter
not always but usually when a cv goes out they just break but if it was as you think lance i would think it would be making a lot of noise clicking or snapping.
wildcatfan when you say cuts out , do you mean the motor cuts out like a rev limiter or kill switch? or it just rev up to rev limit like around 10 or 11k rpm like the clutch is pushed in?
lance where is the rev limit set on that motor? 10600 factory?
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my 2001 busa factory is 10600 but now 11200 thanks to enemy ;D
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Its like a slip and pop. It will quit pulling to jump and then pull a sec then do it again until you shift to second gear. It does it so fast makes you think of a rev limiter or stops fire for a split sec.Its like it cuts out, but it dosent miss a beat. I think it just quits pulling for a fraction of a sec then a pop and pulls again. Then it may continue to pull another 1k or so rpm and do it again. I thought it was the clutch combined with slack in the chain making the noise when it began to pull again. I replaced the whole clutch and tightend the chain. It goes right in first gear with no noise at all just when you wind up to about 5k it starts. Its probably something simple I haven't figured out yet, im gonna check the tensioner sprocket a little better again and make sure the clutch isn't sticking. Again lance I love the buggy. Got alot of brags on your craftsmanship.
But that rear sprocket is wore pretty good, still could be that. It does look like a job to change...lol I had already message doug a few days ago and never heard from him so i thought someone may have had one for sale that would fit the cuda.
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I have never rev'd it that high to reach the limiter. Prob close to 9k in second then shift to 3rd. I never like to free rev a engine really hard. I have never dumped the clutch either theirs no need to.
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Sprockets have to be ordered (new laser run) :( Be a few weeks at least...........
Thanks lance, have him message me. And ill send him some money and my mailing address.
I dont mind waiting, been wanting one for years :D (savin it!!)
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From that description it almost sounds like it fuel or spark related and not something mechanical in the driveline. What's weird is if it was fuel or spark you'd think it would do it in all the gears. Try accelerating slowly to 5-6k in first gear and see if maybe you can control when it happens? Maybe it's something bizarre like at that specific resonance it vibrates just right and loses a ground? I mean the wiring harness has always been rock solid but we all know how things crop up on these buggies. It's not like they're pampered :) I can't see it starving for fuel or it would do it in other places other than 5-6k in first gear.
Its like a slip and pop. It will quit pulling to jump and then pull a sec then do it again until you shift to second gear. It does it so fast makes you think of a rev limiter or stops fire for a split sec.Its like it cuts out, but it dosent miss a beat. I think it just quits pulling for a fraction of a sec then a pop and pulls again. Then it may continue to pull another 1k or so rpm and do it again. I thought it was the clutch combined with slack in the chain making the noise when it began to pull again. I replaced the whole clutch and tightend the chain. It goes right in first gear with no noise at all just when you wind up to about 5k it starts. Its probably something simple I haven't figured out yet, im gonna check the tensioner sprocket a little better again and make sure the clutch isn't sticking. Again lance I love the buggy. Got alot of brags on your craftsmanship.
But that rear sprocket is wore pretty good, still could be that. It does look like a job to change...lol I had already message doug a few days ago and never heard from him so i thought someone may have had one for sale that would fit the cuda.
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Puzzling.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=06HUSql26bU (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=06HUSql26bU)
You can hear it jumping in first gear.
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My dad drove it for the first time today, he said its in the transmission. :(
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well the clutch baskets are known to be weak in stock form. i wonder hmmmmmm
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Why only at 5-6k then. It would at the very least be everywhere in first gear?
My dad drove it for the first time today, he said its in the transmission. :(
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the only @5-6K rpm is puzzling,especially only in first gear. I would think something electrical/electronic. Is there a power commander or such on it?
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No bone stock ECU other then the normal bypasses for sidestand, etc.
the only @5-6K rpm is puzzling,especially only in first gear. I would think something electrical/electronic. Is there a power commander or such on it?
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it does it at different areas, not only 5 or 6k. It sounds like the chain is slipping a tooth, but I honestly I dont think that is it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PoKwluvd5_w (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PoKwluvd5_w)
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Just seems like it starts when you close to that rpm range. Dont really wanna wind it harder than that as it get more aggressively as the rpm increases.
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well the clutch baskets are known to be weak in stock form. i wonder hmmmmmm
Im not expert but, I looked at the wear on the basket itself. It didn't have any grooves worn into it allowing the plates to rotate any once in place. They had to be perfectly lined up to slide back inside.
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Just quit ridin in 1st gear, problem solved! PM'd my address for reward $$$ rofl rofl
If its only 1st I'd say gear in tranny. Which is weird cause 2nd is usually the weaker one. Sprockets look fine, unless theres a tooth somewhere thats weak. Chain looks ok unless a link is locked and jumping a tooth, and clutch and basket problems would change gears too.
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http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/templates/fast1320_z11.aspx?articleid=5820&zoneid=12 (http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/templates/fast1320_z11.aspx?articleid=5820&zoneid=12)
Exactly what mine is doing.
quote author=Carlriddle link=topic=4917.msg81025#msg81025 date=1409083928]
Just quit ridin in 1st gear, problem solved! PM'd my address for reward $$$ rofl rofl
If its only 1st I'd say gear in tranny. Which is weird cause 2nd is usually the weaker one. Sprockets look fine, unless theres a tooth somewhere thats weak. Chain looks ok unless a link is locked and jumping a tooth, and clutch and basket problems would change gears too.
[/quote]
lol..... Unfortunately, I agree as well.
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ya that article sounds correct just 1 st instead of 2nd. of course it could still be the teeth on the side of 2nd gear lol
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So does this make you "out" on the LS trip coming up? It's not ok late, I just pu bearing carrier from machine shop today and have to mod the rear for this big ass sprocket I got. New chain and a larger front sprocket will be on order next week. I really need a good trou or free trip(if that's possible) or wife will never commit to a drive to Idaho.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=06HUSql26bU (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=06HUSql26bU)
You can hear it jumping in first gear.
well the video is marked private so i can't watch it
watched the video of the sprocket wear. the sprocket teeth are a little worn but not bad at all imo. i have seen them wear quite a bit more than than before failure.
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I just looked on Ebay and you can buy a whole set of transmission gears for about $300-$400. I feel responsible, I told you it was 100% turnkey. I'll buy the parts and you do the work?
I believe it's a 2005 but I will verify. I think all first gens are the same but who knows.
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and while you have it apart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5SxlHo-rk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5SxlHo-rk)
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Busa trans are already undercut. So long as the trans is good there is zero need to recut the gears. Save your money unless you just want to spend the bucks.
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If you just want to recut the gears I have a trans from a gen 1 that needs 2nd recut. No need to buy a good one and have it cut. It jumps out of 2nd gear,I think that is what is likely wrong with your car but 1st gear. A couple missed shifts or a bit of grinding finding first will destroy the dog edges. Then you have what you have,I think .
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I am Busa stupid but my buddy was going to buy a busa buggy but was informed busas were known for a weak first gear and most tried to eliminate 1st gear through sprocket gearing. He opted out the rail. Maybe it was 2nd that was weak and if you eliminate 1st you eliminate the shift up to 2nd and breaking it.. guess it would be possible to bang 1st bad on downshift and do the same thing?
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The trouble with the busa trans is that when going to second you have to get past nuetral. Busas are notorious for not liking the fast 1-2 shift. Many times not quite getting all the way into second,it doesn't engage and the dogs get a rounded leading edge. A few times of that and the undercut is gone. After that it won't stay in second under power. It just jumps in and out repeatedly. If first gear is repeatedly ground when engaging the same thing happens to first gear dogs. This may be his issue.
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I NOW never,ever speed shift 1-2. I don't like fixing the trans. It is NOT a hard job BTW. Pretty easy as a matter of fact.
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Busa trans are already undercut. So long as the trans is good there is zero need to recut the gears. Save your money unless you just want to spend the bucks.
i didn't/ don't know for sure but i thought they didn't start the back cut gears and under cut gears stock until 08 or gen II? which is why i thought all the talk about back cutting and under cutting the gears in gen 1. gen 1 of course being the 1300 vs the larger newer one. i do know the stock clutch baskets aren't strong enough for turbo's for someone really hammering down on them.
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I just looked on Ebay and you can buy a whole set of transmission gears for about $300-$400. I feel responsible, I told you it was 100% turnkey. I'll buy the parts and you do the work?
I believe it's a 2005 but I will verify. I think all first gens are the same but who knows.
this is a might nice offer!
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I am Busa stupid but my buddy was going to buy a busa buggy but was informed busas were known for a weak first gear and most tried to eliminate 1st gear through sprocket gearing. He opted out the rail. Maybe it was 2nd that was weak and if you eliminate 1st you eliminate the shift up to 2nd and breaking it.. guess it would be possible to bang 1st bad on downshift and do the same thing?
my rail's final drive reduction is 5.38 to 1 13/70 sprockets. i am out of 1st pretty fast and have had it slip into N when shifting 1st to 2nd, horrible feeling lol and i know i will be into my trans gears at some point especially since my engine had 35k miles on it when it was removed from the bike lol
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i didn't/ don't know for sure but i thought they didn't start the back cut gears and under cut gears stock until 08 or gen II? which is why i thought all the talk about back cutting and under cutting the gears in gen 1. gen 1 of course being the 1300 vs the larger newer one. i do know the stock clutch baskets aren't strong enough for turbo's for someone really hammering down on them.
SFAIK allbut the very first are undercut. The clutch basket is suspect. Depends on driver IMO.
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I just looked on Ebay and you can buy a whole set of transmission gears for about $300-$400. I feel responsible, I told you it was 100% turnkey. I'll buy the parts and you do the work?
I believe it's a 2005 but I will verify. I think all first gens are the same but who knows.
You are a stand up guy Lance! Wish more people were like you. I feel bad about it myself, thats alot of money to shell out. Would a machined raced cut be better? I mean the old set fabr has then have them undercut somewhere possibly even cheaper and maybe even better than stock as far as durability? I heard him say its a waste of money idk
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Or if its better and even a little more I could pay the difference. I dont really know how long theses transmissions last, but I plan on keeping that buggy for yrs to come. I dont wanna deal with it again, rather do it right the first time? Idk jus throwing out some idea's. You guys would know better than me.
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Personally,if the trans is bad,I would just find a good used set of gears(not mine) and run them as is. IMO,there is no need to undercut a good trans for our purposes. IF you were racing it and needed the fastest shifting,least likely to miss a gear then yes but for our purpose/use I'd save the money. Reason is that if you miss a few times it will be junk also. I'm going on this trans 4 years now ,shift it a LOT but no speed shifting 1-2.
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Hell,if you want a fresh undercut trans then just have yours cut.No need to find a different set. You MAY need to replace your
2nd first gear if it is too badly rounded off.
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I'd do the stock set. That transmission has been in there since day one. It's had it's share of abuse. The motor supposedly had less than 10 miles on it when I got it (crashed on the way home from the dealership?). It looked like it as there was virtually no carbon in the exhaust ports and no lube accumulation in the sprocket area. It's been running bone stock now for ~5 years and this is the first issue? Keep in mind a 12 year old drove it who had never driven a car with a clutch or any other car for that matter.
You are a stand up guy Lance! Wish more people were like you. I feel bad about it myself, thats alot of money to shell out. Would a machined raced cut be better? I mean the old set fabr has then have them undercut somewhere possibly even cheaper and maybe even better than stock as far as durability? I heard him say its a waste of money idk
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You're a good guy fabr regardless of what other people say about you rofl rofl rofl
Lee, between what fabr has and what you still have in the Cuda you night mix and match and make it work. I understand the "I only want to do it once" thing though.
If you just want to recut the gears I have a trans from a gen 1 that needs 2nd recut. No need to buy a good one and have it cut. It jumps out of 2nd gear,I think that is what is likely wrong with your car but 1st gear. A couple missed shifts or a bit of grinding finding first will destroy the dog edges. Then you have what you have,I think .
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Take it apart and figure out what you have then make the decision?
Hell,if you want a fresh undercut trans then just have yours cut.No need to find a different set. You MAY need to replace your 2nd gear if it is too badly rounded off.
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Take it apart and figure out what you have then make the decision?
That's what I'd do.
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If you only want to do it once, IMO,if you do decide to have it cut, (Mark) RD-transmissions is the guy to use. Based out of Florida.
http://r-dmotorsports.com/ (http://r-dmotorsports.com/) Stock trans has a slight back-cut to the dogs but one poor engagement or miss and the dog is toast..A full cut will take it to 2*. I went over and under cut on my last trans (1-6) cause I like to be able to down shift as fast as up without ever touching the clutch. Makes neutral a bitch to find sometime sitting still, but I dont mind the tradeoff.
He has done 5 transmissions for us over the years and does outstanding work.
There are many other mods that can be performed on the Busa trans to make it shift like a better than new one as well.. Shift forks are well known for wearing out/bending and making 1-2,2-1 a PITA and the stock shift fork shafts flex and bend if a guy tries to force shifts.. (Could be the problem?) Upgrade to APE shafts while you are in there..The shift star can also be modded for a cleaner precise shift, and the nitrous guys like to mod the shift drum for better high RPM shifts and claim it works well throughout the power band. The last two I have not done, see no need. Just want to share like others have that the stock trans is flawed from the start, especially when we take them out of a light weight bike and stuff them in a heavy car and load them down in the sand.
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Will a haynes manual help me with the transmission removal? Ive been hearing its not to bad?
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All you do is remove the pan,lift out the old ,drop in the new and torque pan bolts.. Now ,IF you let the assembly come apart...........................................well,take pics as you are doing it. Lots of needles also.
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Thanks fabr... prob get started on it tomorrow. Been working on brakes on the red one...lmao
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I have the factory manual at work electronic. Tomorrow? Or search the web. It's out there. Free
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Sorry lance, just seen where you posted. I havent tore into it yet, enemy sent me a electronic copy. Got the garage ready though, did make a little more room.
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Finally tearing the bone out of it!
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What does that bolt hold again behind the magneto? I don't see a tdc Mark on the mag either? And suggestions :). Which side is easier to remove the engine, and do the headers need to come off?
That last pic of the spring, you can see it was giving me problems lol wanted to stretch. And motor would continue to rev when letting off the gas.
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Ummmm why did you take the magneto/stator off? I've never taken it off, I just unplug the wires and leave the assembly on the engine.
The engine seems to come out the right/passenger side the easiest. If you get 2-3 people you can just carefully juggle it out. I tried doing it with a hoist one and it seems alot easier just using the 2-3 people and lifting it in/out.
Headers definitely need to come off. I've always taken the radiator out. If for no other reason than to keep it from getting banged up.
What does that bolt hold again behind the magneto? I don't see a tdc Mark on the mag either? And suggestions :). Which side is easier to remove the engine, and do the headers need to come off?
That last pic of the spring, you can see it was giving me problems lol wanted to stretch. And motor would continue to rev when letting off the gas.
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It's been a while since I took that motor out but if I remember right.......... Lift the engine and rotate it so the oil pan comes out the side first and then you have to twist it a little to clear the cage vs the head. I think :) It's been a while..........
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Well I guess I missed a plug then. Seemed to me I thought the same thing.lol I guess I better look a little harder. Thank you :)
Ummmm why did you take the magneto/stator off? I've never taken it off, I just unplug the wires and leave the assembly on the engine.
The engine seems to come out the right/passenger side the easiest. If you get 2-3 people you can just carefully juggle it out. I tried doing it with a hoist one and it seems alot easier just using the 2-3 people and lifting it in/out.
Headers definitely need to come off. I've always taken the radiator out. If for no other reason than to keep it from getting banged up.
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Thank you Lance! Now if I can get a few able bodies over here later. :)
It's been a while since I took that motor out but if I remember right.......... Lift the engine and rotate it so the oil pan comes out the side first and then you have to twist it a little to clear the cage vs the head. I think :) It's been a while..........
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It's wrapped up in the tape harness bundle
Well I guess I missed a plug then. Seemed to me I thought the same thing.lol I guess I better look a little harder. Thanks
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Thank you lance, I found it..lol Before I started wrenching on that front sprocket to take the chain off I was wondering how that nut worked? Is it reversed threads? It also has that allen screw in the end of it.
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you got 2 weeks to get it done and run down to LS for a ride with the dts bunch!!
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I've never taken the front sprocket off. I usually just loosen the rear sprocket adjuster and give it some slack that way. Maybe it's easier to take the front one off but I never have.
Thank you lance, I found it..lol Before I started wrenching on that front sprocket to take the chain off I was wondering how that nut worked? Is it reversed threads? It also has that allen screw in the end of it.
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you got 2 weeks to get it done and run down to LS for a ride with the dts bunch!!
Sounds like fun!! Hopefully I can make it someday!!
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I've never taken the front sprocket off. I usually just loosen the rear sprocket adjuster and give it some slack that way. Maybe it's easier to take the front one off but I never have.
I thought about that, I knew it had to come off eventually. Didnt know if it would be easier with the chain on. I can always use a impact later. Thanks againn:)
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Lance, Still want me to get that run going? Slipped my mind with the recent events!
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After a little while today, almost ready to come off. 3 motor mounts bolts and its ready. My dad came by and he thinks we can pull it with leaving the headers on? Idk.. any help is more than none so we'll try it...lol Prob be doing what you said Lance and pulling them off...lol
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They come off easy. There's no gaskets or anything to replace. It's gonna be WAY easier with them off..............
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Maybe I should go ahead and just take them off before he gets here tomorrow. ;)
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Take them off. There is only a crush ring gasket that you can/will reuse. If it were turbo'd or using a wideband then using new crush sleeves would be wise.
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I will, I think he is more worried of how header bolts tend to be...but they dont even look rusty, should come right on out with a good jar.
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If factory header bolts,no worry.
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Well did you get it out? How does the trans look?
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Well did you get it out? How does the trans look?
Yea, it's out but I'm taking it to a professional for the transmission work. I don't wanna cut my teeth on this one, even though it seems much easier than most.
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I'm taking it to a guy in Kenova WV. He's really good mechanic he used to work for a honda cycle shop.
Came out really easy with the headers on made it easy to grab onto.
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Only thing hard about doing the trans is getting the thing level ,upside down.
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Only thing hard about doing the trans is getting the thing level ,upside down.
I bet, I wasn't scared of it but I'd rather spend a few bucks knowing it's done right. Where the motor is out and he dosent have to pull the cylinders not gonna be that expensive labor wise. I'm taking it to him in the morning.
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Think a 14 tooth front sprocket is to low?
Anyone ever remove the baffling in the stock Busa exhaust?
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A 14t will be fine and prob much better ratio for you. Any less and you have to watch and maintain a good bit.
Call Angela at Rossen Racing. $30
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A 14t will be fine and prob much better ratio for you. Any less and you have to watch and maintain a good bit.
Call Angela at Rossen Racing. $30
I bought a vortex off ebay for $26. They had 14 to 18t. (Thank you Carl)
Im gonna check the rear break pads since the motor is off very easy to get to at the moment. But I dont even know what kind of caliber that is, it may not need them.
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Still haven't heard anything, but I did sell the guys keep wrangler for him. Thought that might speed him up...lol
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Dogs were wore in first gear and a bent shift fork(s). Im not for sure but I think he replaced first and sixth gear? I think those two run together to make up first. He's said it would be ready for pickup this weekend. I done what lance said and just put new oem parts back. Didn't wanna take a chance on used stuff.
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I think you went the right direction with new parts.
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Finally got my engine today! Just as we suspected.
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well now you just need time for a test drive!
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well now you just need time for a test drive!
Yes definitely! Just got my neighbor to help me lift the engine out of the trunk of my car. Be putting it back together this week after work each day.
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Should be just in time for the cold front next wk end. Atleast you got it fig out. ;D
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Yea, that kinda sux. At least I might make the turkey run. Hurt my back the other day at work pretty bad. Definitely slowed things down for me. Got a steroid shot and it feels like its helping.
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Together Again!!! ;D
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so how does it run now?
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so how does it run now?
Great!! Stupid fast!! Lol Just need to figure out the throttle spring. Keeps stretching
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what did you wind up going with on sprocket tooth counts?
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The poor buggy must be going thru culture shock. It's never seen that much vegetation in it's entire life till now. I'm glad you got it back together :)
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lol
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what did you wind up going with on sprocket tooth counts?
14 tooth on the front I think its a 72 on the rear? 5.14 overall
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The poor buggy must be going thru culture shock. It's never seen that much vegetation in it's entire life till now. I'm glad you got it back together :)
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Lol... I had some serious cleaning to do after that. It really wasnt that bad though. My throttle cable was stuck when I took this pic I didnt know at the time. It happened after I shut it off, looked like the temp was getting a little high so I shut it down. I never let it get hot, just to be safe. Its been kinda a pain to burp the coolant. Anyways should have seen how I had to ride it home firing it up and letting out the clutch real quick getting up to speed and shutting it down and pushing the clucth back in coasting. Then repeating....lol I broke the cable trying to free it up as a last resort.
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video? so are you going to try and meet up with the rest of us this coming year?