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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Controls and Electrical => Topic started by: Doug Heim on September 30, 2009, 10:18:26 PM
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OK guys I dont ask for help much and this is priority!
I finished the assembly of my buggy tonight. It drove into the garage. I have it all wired and plumbed as it has been for the last 2 years almost.
Plugs seem all good
No broken wires (that I can see)
grounds are good
Engine in neutral
kill switch wired properly and working
All relays good
no blown fuses (anymore, one was but I replaced it)
Side stand switch bypassed properly
bank angle sensor bypassed properly
turn ignition on and the guages go through diagnostic sweep
FI light is on but Im not sure if it is to go off once engine fires (cant remember)
No fuel pump charge!!!!
OK so I check the fuel pump and relay.... Good
I check voltage at the fuel pump and have some but not sure how much. (meter is $hit)
I hard wired the fuel pump and it works thinking that was the issue... only to discover I also have no spark.
Engine does crank, but no fuel pump and no spark.
My brain is officially over worked tonight. Do any of you have any ideas? I know we will get it fixed but Im on a tight deadline now!
Id hate to have to go pick up an ECU to only discover thats not the problem.
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I am reallly fishing here as these are not my forte by any means.
First off what fuse blew? It may or may not matter but it might help someone think of something.
Second are you sure it did not blow again?
Something to do with the clutch maybe? If the kickstart and tip over are correct the clutch or maybe the gear indicator could be keeping it from kicking?
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Honestly Doug check your ground, did you have it powder coated? I bought a Triumph bonnieville 750 although it did run, it ran up to crap after a while, I got it home and pulled the condensers off and scraped the powder coating off the frame and it went like a dream after that!! I hope it helps..
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Fuse did not pop again. They are all still good.
I did have it powder coated and thought the sae Reidy. I did test ground to the engine and that is good. ll run a ground wire when I get home to be certain. Im thinking it must be a ground to one of the electronics but I scraped the powder off of every connection to ground. I dont think it is he clutc but Ill bleed it and push that is as I have i hooked up as itwouldbe on the bike only to my pedal instaed ofcourse.
Any other ideas? I am working on geting an ECU next day air but would rather not $$$
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Gotta be a ground issue is my guess. I had the problem once when I had a silver base color with blue overlay. I THOUGHT I had removed the PC but the silver base fooled me. ZGot down to real bare metal and VIOLA! problem solved.
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So it drove into the garage but now won't start?
Sounds like something is loose or something arc'ed (like a loose battery cable does) and the ground signal is bad? Turn the key on and go around and wiggle everything? If you find it you'll hear the fuel pump start and run till it gets pressure.
You did put gas in it right :P
Somewhere there something is telling the computer that all is not right and it should protect the motor. I know you're not running a Busa but when my ECU was dead it would not enter the "dealer Diagnostic Mode" and give me any codes whatsoever. Is there a way to try and read codes on yours?
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Turn the key on and get a jumper wire to the (-) terminal on the battery and go around and touch everything that might be suspect ground wise and listen for the fuel pump?
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Check ya fuel pump relay..
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IF I recall correctly the pump will only run momentarily if the engine does not start. You MAY need to cycle the key on and off to do these checks.
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Pump relay is good. Ill check and run grounds when I get home. The FI light is not signaling any codes, It just stays on. There is fuel in the tank and I did hard wire it. When it still didnt fire is when I learned of the no spark. So do I pull the trigger on a ECU just incase? Im leaving Monday so It does not leave much time.
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It's a gamble fur sure but at worst you'll have a spare....
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On the Busa the FI light was on and it would not show codes. I checked everything else and the "new" ECU solved the problem. On the other hand I find it hard to beleive that the ECU died from removing it and re-installing it. Then there's the not having it for your trip thing. I'd buy it and have it in hand and if it turns out not to be that you have a spare.
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It's a gamble fur sure but at worst you'll have a spare....
Great minds think alike :)
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Got it!
Runs like a dream! :-X
I will say it was not a ground issue which I surley thought it may be.
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GIVE!!!! What was it?
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Well I took 1/2 day at work today as this was really bothering me and I knew if I needed to get parts, that time was critical. I did arrange for an ECU to be deliverd to me and Ill still see that tomorrow but now I dont need it. I do have another RC51 Motor that needs one for future use so it is not a waste.
I really thought it was a simple ground issue so I removed every connection to ground and scraped down to bare metal and even ran a few extra wires including a hard wire from the battery to the Engine. Same problem.
I again checked fuses, all conections, relays, and safteycut outs. All good so I called and got the ECU comming.
Staring at my wiring diagram I decided to check power from the saftey relay to all the components that it suplied power to. At the same time, I was taking ohms readings at all sensors and electrical components advised from Fabr. During this process, one of the components that the saftey relay suplied power to was the injectors. There is a good size plug that houses all the wiring going to the throttle bodies, injectors and throttle position sensor. I was going to check power and continuity at this point but noticed that one of the negative supply lines from the ECU to one of the 4 injectors was loose from the plug. I pushed it in and violia!
Now someone want to tell me why it is that an uncompleted circuit to the injector would lock out spark and the fuel pump? I would think that the injector itself and alone would be affected. Anyway, That fixed it. I pulled the connection out and added a dab of super glue so it does never come out again. What goes on in that ECU is a complete mystery. It is even worse that the dealer service center cant even test wether the ECU is good or not ::)
Thanks for your help guys!
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Everybody knows that the flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts of electrical power to operate. The steel body of the buggy has a direct and influential effect on the "flux dispersal."
You should have looked there first.
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I might understand where a non firing injector on a TWO stroke might shut the motor down but even with oil injection the cylinder should not burn up.
Good question as to why it would shut a fourstroke down?
Seems the puter should warn the driver of the issue and stay running on the other(s) to get you home/garage/safety etc.
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One would think that it would go into "limp home" mode anyway. Oh well glad to hear you got my ride running! ;D ;D
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Yummi, Don't try to steal my lines. I am "The Doctor". Tim
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Yeah, seriously Doug...why didnt you go straight to that connector? When I was reading your post I was thinking..I bet that connector is open circuited...pretty obvious really.... at least down here in Aus.....
;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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LMAO
I bet you could even see it from down there huh?
All in all I think if the injector did not work properly that the motor would still run limp. Remember this was a broken connection, not a bad injector. Each cylinder has 2 injectors on this motor. Still wonder why a bad connection to he injector would disable the whole fuel and firing system. Stupid!
Must be an engineer's idea. (sorry in advance to my engineer friends) 8)
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just an idea to the mystery. You say it has two injectors per piston right? Well If it fired and ran with one of the injectors not firing at all and one pumping a normal stream of fuel into the piston you would run that piston really leann Unlike on a motor that only has one injector. It just wouldnt fire in that hole. I dont think it would detonate but it could gald the hole causeing the cylinder to over heat and therefore swell and the piston would be sloppy in the hole. Thus causing major problems if it fired and you was to continue driving it. Just my two cents on it. I guess a limp mode should disable the other injector so that hole doesnt fire at all.
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Yeah, seriously Doug...why didnt you go straight to that connector? When I was reading your post I was thinking..I bet that connector is open circuited...pretty obvious really.... at least down here in Aus.....
;D
Artie your toilet swirls backwards
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just an idea to the mystery. You say it has two injectors per piston right? Well If it fired and ran with one of the injectors not firing at all and one pumping a normal stream of fuel into the piston you would run that piston really leann Unlike on a motor that only has one injector. It just wouldnt fire in that hole. I dont think it would detonate but it could gald the hole causeing the cylinder to over heat and therefore swell and the piston would be sloppy in the hole. Thus causing major problems if it fired and you was to continue driving it. Just my two cents on it. I guess a limp mode should disable the other injector so that hole doesnt fire at all.
I agree.
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so?
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I did not think about the other injector still firing causing a lean condition.
GOOD CALL Boltz I too would agree this sounds the most logical.
I agree on the limp home it could just cut both injectors or maybe cut all the injectors IF it was the high speed (secondary) injectors then just run home slowish on the primary injectors.
Course if it was the primary injector that was disconnected would it run only on the secondary injectors at low RPM?
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Boltz I agree too. Just another way to protect the motor. Would be nice if you could get a code showing thats the problem though. ::)
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Anything more to add now Artie? ;D ;D
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yeah...why did it lose spark?
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I would be willing to bet it lost spark as a way for the computer to
make sure it didn't fire and run off any fuel left in the bowls of the carbs or in the lined or holes. This way you can't simply run a hot wire to the fuel pump. Just a secondary safety.
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I would be willing to bet it lost spark as a way for the computer to
make sure it didn't fire and run off any fuel left in the bowls of the carbs or in the lined or holes. This way you can't simply run a hot wire to the fuel pump. Just a secondary safety.
Yep, ECU must sense the injector. No Injector, then it turns off fuel and spark. Weird that it wouldn't throw a code though.