Author Topic: "Road Rail" Design (UK)  (Read 20185 times)

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wightsparks

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"Road Rail" Design (UK)
« on: November 23, 2018, 05:00:41 AM »

As mentioned in my intro I have a UK VW based Sandrail that I modified with a Miata Engine, Porsche 944 suspension (IRS torsion bar), Bike mufflers (see I can talk American!) and other random bits of cars.
The frame is a Fugitive that is  an 80's rip off of a Chenowth


Despite it's looks it is mainly a road car with the odd excursion to the mud.

Having done the mods on this one now I am looking to build a "Road Rail" from scratch, something along the lines of the Arial Nomad - this has about 8"-10" of  travel which will probably be plenty.  Shown here with our finest British weather



Looks wise I like these: (Only looks I don't need rock crawler ability!)











For road registration as Baloo has mentioned there are a couple of options.

a) Build it custom then put it through an IVA test - a very detailed examination to a spec that runs to 300 pages, costs $700 a test with a 92% first time fail rate. Transport to the test for me would add around $300 each time, also adds 3-6 months to the build time.

b) build it using an existing chassis  from a  "Body on Frame" car  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body-on-frame , you also have to use a few other parts - choose from suspension, axles,steering engine etc. BUT then it is just a form, a few pics and free. A tube frame can be added as long as you don't cut the original chassis.

Like this :


For b) I have not yet been able to find any rear engine RWD separate chassis cars - (except the beetle of course )  -though @Baloo is the expert on this and has started a few similar projects
The little Suzuki Jimny/Vittara 2WDs are front engine RWD, which does not fit with the look I want but I may be able to compromise! - The IBIS above is front engined of course but then they are HUGE! (for the UK anyway)  A lot of the big US SUV's use body on frame but we don't get them over here - and I could not afford one if we did.

Stealing this picture off Baloo you can see the Suzuki chassis could be interesting



Some chassis dimensions here https://www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk/tech-specs/chassis-diagrams

I was hoping to find some designs/plans to buy that I could modify for the cage shape, but nothing I can find in the UK - The Tomala above is Polish and not been put into CAD  as far as I know. The US/AUS etc plans that I have found are for extreme off road vehicles - Edge, Rorty and the like. So like Baloo I'm stuck with designing my own. Going to start with wood sticks! 

That is where I am at the moment - I have another small project first that is an off-road electric reverse trike that I inherited - but that will be a separate post!

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 07:24:36 AM »
so only you can choose your level of difficulty. as far as what you want to build... if one had to choose from those pics, this one would be the easiest to duplicate with out plans.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 07:32:24 AM by dsrace »
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Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 07:29:03 AM »
If at all possible,I would go with option A since I hate what the restrictions would make me do with option B. It sounds/looks  like you and baloo are kindred spirits! Welcome to the site!
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 07:31:11 AM »
i added 2 lines to that pic. the lower line needs to be added imo and he upper line is where that upper tube should come from to follow the secondary down the hood. otherwise i don't know why they bother building it like that?? 

you could design and build a tube chassis yourself, it's not as hard as people think. here is a pic of a pretty standard universal design. the red arrows need to be 13" apart inside of the tube then one can fit a decent long travel a arm front end on it. now if one was only going to run 16 " travel you could lower that to prob 11" apart. back on the side where your arm would sit if you were sitting in it, make that spacing, between upper and lower frame sections, 15" or 17" depending on the front.

Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 07:32:14 AM »
so only you can choose your level of difficulty. as far as what you want to build... if one had to choose from those pics, this on would be the easiest to duplicate with out plans.
I like it and the Tomala. Either would be pretty easy to build.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 07:35:36 AM »
here is a pic of an extremely easy one to build  ;D ;D
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 07:41:21 AM »
i added 2 lines to that pic. the lower line needs to be added imo and he upper line is where that upper tube should come from to follow the secondary down the hood. otherwise i don't know why they bother building it like that?? 

you could design and build a tube chassis yourself, it's not as hard as people think. here is a pic of a pretty standard universal design. the red arrows need to be 13" apart inside of the tube then one can fit a decent long travel a arm front end on it. now if one was only going to run 16 " travel you could lower that to prob 11" apart. back on the side where your arm would sit if you were sitting in it, make that spacing, between upper and lower frame sections, 15" or 17" depending on the front.
Remember,he has no need for that much travel.His build ,suspension wise,is a piece of cake compared to LT buggy needs.  THat said he will have the option of shorter arms both front and rear enabling a wider dimension between the inner pivots. That opens up some real estate. Consider the rally cars,limited travel yet they handle a LOT of stuff and handle all sorts of stuff very well .
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 07:41:38 AM »
as far as plans and measurements well , grab a tape measure and find the car you feel most comfortable for foot room and head room. measure from the back of the seat to the fire wall in front of the pedals and from top of seat to head liner. then when you choose seats for the road rail you can add the base measure of that seat to your existing. measure the motor and add 6" beyond the acc's for ease of access.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 07:42:52 AM »
here is a pic of an extremely easy one to build  ;D ;D
Brian,I don't think he is looking at building any type of actual off road/dune vehicle. He ,I think,needs a project Binky . ;D
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 07:48:49 AM »
i added 2 lines to that pic. the lower line needs to be added imo and he upper line is where that upper tube should come from to follow the secondary down the hood. otherwise i don't know why they bother building it like that?? 

you could design and build a tube chassis yourself, it's not as hard as people think. here is a pic of a pretty standard universal design. the red arrows need to be 13" apart inside of the tube then one can fit a decent long travel a arm front end on it. now if one was only going to run 16 " travel you could lower that to prob 11" apart. back on the side where your arm would sit if you were sitting in it, make that spacing, between upper and lower frame sections, 15" or 17" depending on the front.
Remember,he has no need for that much travel.His build ,suspension wise,is a piece of cake compared to LT buggy needs.  THat said he will have the option of shorter arms both front and rear enabling a wider dimension between the inner pivots. That opens up some real estate. Consider the rally cars,limited travel yet they handle a LOT of stuff and handle all sorts of stuff very well .
[/color]

true    but he will find his way to baloo's offroad course eventually so atleast 10" wheel travel. he can use a vw torsion at point with a 3x3 trailing arm on the rear to simplify that end.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 07:49:42 AM »
here is a pic of an extremely easy one to build  ;D ;D
Brian,I don't think he is looking at building any type of actual off road/dune vehicle. He ,I think,needs a project Binky . ;D

project binky would be fun and very time consuming. the pics he posted paint a diff pic!  ;D
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 07:54:18 AM »
i added 2 lines to that pic. the lower line needs to be added imo and he upper line is where that upper tube should come from to follow the secondary down the hood. otherwise i don't know why they bother building it like that?? 

you could design and build a tube chassis yourself, it's not as hard as people think. here is a pic of a pretty standard universal design. the red arrows need to be 13" apart inside of the tube then one can fit a decent long travel a arm front end on it. now if one was only going to run 16 " travel you could lower that to prob 11" apart. back on the side where your arm would sit if you were sitting in it, make that spacing, between upper and lower frame sections, 15" or 17" depending on the front.
Remember,he has no need for that much travel.His build ,suspension wise,is a piece of cake compared to LT buggy needs.  THat said he will have the option of shorter arms both front and rear enabling a wider dimension between the inner pivots. That opens up some real estate. Consider the rally cars,limited travel yet they handle a LOT of stuff and handle all sorts of stuff very well .
[/color]

true    but he will find his way to baloo's offroad course eventually so atleast 10" wheel travel. he can use a vw torsion at point with a 3x3 trailing arm on the rear to simplify that end.
I don't believe baloos course woud actually need 10" travel. That much travel would ,in some ways,be detrimental to a road car.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2018, 08:04:57 AM »
In the end,he needs to cement his needs and build to that end. Compromises never yield the best results. Or put another way,one size doesn't fit all. LOL!!
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Baloo

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2018, 11:26:40 AM »
here is a pic of an extremely easy one to build  ;D ;D
Brian,I don't think he is looking at building any type of actual off road/dune vehicle. He ,I think,needs a project Binky . ;D

glad to see you watch blinky over there too, he has quite a following over here,   I cant help feeling he is over engineering it a bit though, probably just to show case his not inconsiderable engineering skills  this series must have done wonders for his motorsport business, don't get me wrong  its very very  very good but its a rally car and has a very high chance of been destroyed  when they start competing with it ,  most rally cars just have all the drivetrain swapped into another shell  when they are severely damaged  and there's the problem  he cant just get another body shell  that one is a bit Special
but I do take my hat off to his skills,  also their humour is funny  lol

Offline Baloo

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Re: "Road Rail" Design (UK)
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2018, 11:31:03 AM »

As mentioned in my intro I have a UK VW based Sandrail that I modified with a Miata Engine, Porsche 944 suspension (IRS torsion bar), Bike mufflers (see I can talk American!) and other random bits of cars.
The frame is a Fugitive that is  an 80's rip off of a Chenowth


Despite it's looks it is mainly a road car with the odd excursion to the mud.

Having done the mods on this one now I am looking to build a "Road Rail" from scratch, something along the lines of the Arial Nomad - this has about 8"-10" of  travel which will probably be plenty.  Shown here with our finest British weather



Looks wise I like these: (Only looks I don't need rock crawler ability!)











For road registration as Baloo has mentioned there are a couple of options.



Like this :



Stealing this picture off Baloo you can see the Suzuki chassis could be interesting



Some chassis dimensions here https://www.suzukiclubuk.co.uk/tech-specs/chassis-diagrams




some interesting designs there I still intend to use the Suzuki Vitara/sidekick chassis with a frame on it that looks like your fugitive
with a v8 up front,   need a set of fug body panels if you see any anywhere, even just to take moulds off
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 11:34:28 AM by Baloo »

 

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