Author Topic: Ecotec or Vtec  (Read 7834 times)

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chrishallett83

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2009, 04:51:05 PM »
Well for both the motors I suggested, they are from transverse mountings in AWD cars. But all you really need to do is fit a RWD sump from the same engine family (or have one welded up out of 2mm sheet steel if that option fizzles out), and mate'em up to a transaxle of your choice. If there is no aftermarket adapter readily available, find someone who knows how to figure that stuff out (I daresay there are a good few blokes who can help you with that here ;D ), and maybe get someone who's good with a mill to machine it up from a billet of 6062. I'm sure there are a good few blokes here who could help you out with that, too.

Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2009, 05:28:28 PM »
Chris you are missing the point. I am talk about using the engine and the stock tranny locking up the diff in the stock tanny and turning it side ways and running it into another diff.

You do have some good ideas though.  bb:

chrishallett83

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 02:41:00 AM »
If that's the case, then we'll just have to find you an all-alloy RWD V6 motor with good power then, won't we? Or mid-mount?

For instance, the Honda C32B, out of this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSX
There's gotta be one at a wreckers somewhere...

LiveWire

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 05:33:52 AM »
I did not understand you were thinking to run the transaxle and then another diff. I think that would be a lot of gear reduction for anything other than a rock crawler. I think it would be quite heavy. There will be the issue of the FWD drive shafts being offset to one side of the engine and the IRS diff being centered.

Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 05:57:58 AM »
I thought the same thing about the reduction as well, but according to the gear calculator I used(http://www.angelfire.com/fl/procrastination/rear.html) as long as I stay with something like 2.73-3.08 in the irs it should work. I may be missing something but when I compared the ratios of the FWD trans to the ones on that site which are RWD there was not that much difference between ratios of any of the gears.

LiveWire

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 02:30:18 PM »
Did you also include the final drive reduction in the FWD transaxle?

Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2009, 04:08:04 PM »
Is there a calculator that will allow me to do this or a formula? Sorry guys I am too tired to look for one.

These are the ratios I used.

Final Drive    1       2        3        4         5         R
3.94          3.58    2.02    1.35   0.98   0.69  3.31
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 04:10:17 PM by jsbm »

LiveWire

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 06:53:46 AM »
You multiply all stages. So 3.94x0.69x2.73

Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 01:32:21 PM »
So that gives me a new final of 7.42 in fifth gear. Not so good unless I want to drag race for 50 feet or pull stumps. Any way around this or is this the deal breaker.

LiveWire

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2009, 08:06:52 AM »
You can fudge it a bit based on that if the car original had 24" tires and you run 31s then you'll gain a bit of speed back. You don't need or be able to attain the same top speed of the original car. But you're still going to be geared too low with that setup.

With the engine mounted in a typical RWD fashion, I would just use a RWD setup. There are a bunch of Fords with the 8.8 IRS setup and you can get at least 4.10 gears for an 8.8. You really don't even need to start with an IRS rear end. My brother narrows rear ends for pulling tractors. His V8 powered one has a Ford 9". He just did an S-10 rear end for an 1100 bike engine powered one. The guy had a narrowed Chevette rear end in it that blew out. It's possible to narrow a rear end up so it is just the pig and the output flanges. The 930 CV pattern can be put into the flanges and use spacer rings for clearance. By using a more common rear end and narrowing it, it provides more options for gears.

My brother's tractor runs a power glide with no tail shaft housing and a splined coupler to the rear end making it a very short drivetrain. I have told him he should build a 4 seat rail with the same setup.

Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2009, 02:49:30 PM »
Was my math correct with your formula? I mean my new final drive or am I missing something. With the #'s you put in there that gives me 7.42, is this my new final and do I use this in the calculator as my final with the trannies original ratios?

Offline Engineer

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2009, 04:38:31 PM »
What exactly is the layout of the car you are proposing?  Front engine rear drive?  If you are trying to do rear or mid engine with rear drive, the length of any setup is to long IMO.  There are cars built that way but they are longer drag race type cars and not as manuverable, and not well suited for topping dunes, etc.  I also don't know what terrain your targeting.

In the drag race world, a super common setup is any motor coupled to a powerglide 2 speed that has no tail shaft just an adapter, then a splined coupler is used between the tranny and the solid mounted 3rd member.  This setup is about as short as you can get with an OE tranny and rearend setup, but is still two long IMO for an agile car.  I would estimate it is 30" from the front of the tranny to the axle centerline.  Fabr could give us the actual number. Hint Hint.

IMO either of the motors you mentioned would work well with an 091 bus tranny, Adapters would be readily available for either.  Then you would have a common and very upgradeable transaxle while keeping the car proportions very well in line.

After rereading some of your posts, I may be way out of line with the direction of my response, but physical packaging was always the downfall of any nontraditional drivetrain ideas that I came up with.

Offline fabr

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2009, 07:54:54 PM »
What exactly is the layout of the car you are proposing?  Front engine rear drive?  If you are trying to do rear or mid engine with rear drive, the length of any setup is to long IMO.  There are cars built that way but they are longer drag race type cars and not as manuverable, and not well suited for topping dunes, etc.  I also don't know what terrain your targeting.

In the drag race world, a super common setup is any motor coupled to a powerglide 2 speed that has no tail shaft just an adapter, then a splined coupler is used between the tranny and the solid mounted 3rd member.  This setup is about as short as you can get with an OE tranny and rearend setup, but is still two long IMO for an agile car.  I would estimate it is 30" from the front of the tranny to the axle centerline.  Fabr could give us the actual number. Hint Hint.

IMO either of the motors you mentioned would work well with an 091 bus tranny, Adapters would be readily available for either.  Then you would have a common and very upgradeable transaxle while keeping the car proportions very well in line.

After rereading some of your posts, I may be way out of line with the direction of my response, but physical packaging was always the downfall of any nontraditional drivetrain ideas that I came up with.
I have several of those setups sitting around.If you want I'll measure one tomorrow. They are commonly called a PG Shortie. Put kevlar frictions in and you have a bullet proof PG. No need to spend big bux either. All you need is a good  full manual valve body such as a TCI,a GOOD converter,a KILLER cooler and you have it. Get any auto tranny hot and it's all over.Still too long overall for your need tho. I'd estimate approx 22" lng tho. Let me know if you want the measurement.
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Offline jsbm

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2009, 05:31:56 AM »
I want to take the engine and tranny from a fwd car, lock up the diff turn it sideways and feed an irs with the stock tranny. With this setup I don't think the length would be too long, but as Livewire pointed out gearing will be an issue.

Offline fabr

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Re: Ecotec or Vtec
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2009, 05:45:59 AM »
The width will suck also.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

 

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