DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: Admin on January 01, 2009, 07:14:07 PM
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Here you go lets talk, I dont think its possible from the counter sprocket, rpm range would suck....Target rpm range IMO is 8500
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A built 800 2 stroke is about 90 ft lbs of torque 150 hp, at 8500 rpms or so....
Benefit one from bike engine, no gas/oil, no extravagant pipe...ability to run various rpm range with ease....
Engineer and myselfs idea is to adapt via the clutch basket, so only one primary reduction, havent did the math to figure out rpms yet...
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You mean eliminate the bike trans alltogether?
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Busa clutch basket turns at 1.596 of crank rpm.
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A sprocket is pulled dead on so its flat surfaces hit other flat surfaces and its good.
The CVT would be out from the sprocekt area so increased load and ANY slop would make for an wearing angle and heat build up cause its gonna be tough to near impossible to hold the CVT on a tiny splined shaft as well as they normally fit a tapered one like they are made for.
If a bike motor was gonna be used you would need to move it away from the motor some anyway JUST for clearance so it would have a short shaft you could make stout and then connect to the bike motors output with a driveshaft adaptor or something you made to bolt of weld to a sprocket that fits your motor. The driven has a long shaft to so as long as the frame has clearance for it it would be pretty easy.
I also like an idea I cam up with before of running a chain back to a shaft that the drive CVT fits on then feeding the belt into your driven on the tranny or whatever. Being the chain could be longer it would not have the heting issues but again the frame would need to be able to accomodate it.
All in all with all the fabbin and Rubegoldbergin it might be miles ahead to scam around for a good deal on an Apex or a Cat 660 tubo or.....
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yes eliminate the clutch basket all together, all tho, which direction does the basket turn?
I cant use a busa, not enuff funds...Lets talk gsxr 750 for a minute, here is the specs....
138hp at 12500
63 lbs torque at 10500
1.857 primary reduction
1.182:1 6th gear for refrence
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I would have to look at some pictures, but it seems that you would have to have a jack shaft regardless, so you could come off the custom clutch basket/cover arrangement with a cog belt, up to the jack shaft and run the jack shaft across above the bike tranny, to where it would hold the primary for the CVT. It would be higher, but back from the original location so that the belt length would work out.
You could get rid of the weight of that nasty bike clutch and tranny. :o :o ;D
Rue-Goldberg all the way. ;D
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Whna I read counter sprocket I was thinking you meant the sprocket the chain feeds power out of in the bike.
To tap power any other way the cost are likley to be on par with a good modernday four stroke sled motor and you can have it tommorrow likely if you shop around.
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The busa would be far off center also.
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A sprocket is pulled dead on so its flat surfaces hit other flat surfaces and its good.
The CVT would be out from the sprocekt area so increased load and ANY slop would make for an wearing angle and heat build up cause its gonna be tough to near impossible to hold the CVT on a tiny splined shaft as well as they normally fit a tapered one like they are made for.
If a bike motor was gonna be used you would need to move it away from the motor some anyway JUST for clearance so it would have a short shaft you could make stout and then connect to the bike motors output with a driveshaft adaptor or something you made to bolt of weld to a sprocket that fits your motor. The driven has a long shaft to so as long as the frame has clearance for it it would be pretty easy.
I also like an idea I cam up with before of running a chain back to a shaft that the drive CVT fits on then feeding the belt into your driven on the tranny or whatever. Being the chain could be longer it would not have the heting issues but again the frame would need to be able to accomodate it.
All in all with all the fabbin and Rubegoldbergin it might be miles ahead to scam around for a good deal on an Apex or a Cat 660 tubo or.....
2500 not an option, hell as much out of the box thinking you do, id think youd be all about this, I dont belive there is enuff rpms at the counter sprocket...
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I would have to look at some pictures, but it seems that you would have to have a jack shaft regardless, so you could come off the custom clutch basket/cover arrangement with a cog belt, up to the jack shaft and run the jack shaft across above the bike tranny, to where it would hold the primary for the CVT. It would be higher, but back from the original location so that the belt length would work out.
You could get rid of the weight of that nasty bike clutch and tranny. :o :o ;D
Rue-Goldberg all the way. ;D
remove the clutch and basket, machine a tapered adpter to bolt directly to the gear just as the basket does, machine new cover with seal, support cvt clutch on the end...
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Getting rid of the bike gears will save MAYBE all of 10 #'s tho.
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It's a Bbbbaaaadddddd idea.
Clutch basket is running backwards won't work.
If your going to use bike motor, use clutch and tranny.....
Other wise use sled motor.
Peace out!
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You'll still be dealing with a primary reduction.No way around it and the shaft speed will still be in the 7-8K range.With a jackshaft you could increase that easily.Just remove all other gears but 6th in the bike trans .
6700 rpms, and about 105 ft lbs of torque guessing it is about 50 at 12500, rated 63 peak at 10500
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It's a Bbbbaaaadddddd idea.
Clutch basket is running backwards won't work.
If your going to use bike motor, use clutch and tranny.....
Other wise use sled motor.
Peace out!
are you sure?
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Yah won't lie and say I know exactly but in the higher gears the output sprocket of the motor bike engines is still dang high. Some of these motors turn 11,000 and 12,000 rpm so the reduction is practically needed.
Even the fabled Yamaha Vmax 4 cylinder 2 smoker sled had to reduce the rpms of the crank due to the motor high revving nature. I think the newer Apex and R1 do as well.
I do like to think outside the box BUT not if it means a ton of custom parts I would be afraid of breaking and not getting a repalcement easy for. I will also suffer a few extra pounds for tougher parts whenever I can as I mostly play and aint racing for bucks.
I have had enough stuff break on me that I wish for reliability first. 300 horsepower is NO FUN is its not getting to those wheels.
I sold my Honda Pilot. It was HELLA fun. But something going wrong meant a search and a small fortune for simple parts.
I wish for parts you can either make on a lath or buy at any local Autozone or Napa or scrap yard.
A shaft behind the motor is somewhat cheap. Easy to make and easy to have a spare in case you had to change it. Something from inside a case not meant for it can add up to problems in a hurry. The cost of specail shafts and specail cases means you could have bought the better sled motor in MY opinion.
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Yah won't lie and say I know exactly but in the higher gears the output sprocket of the motor bike engines is still dang high. Some of these motors turn 11,000 and 12,000 rpm so the reduction is practically needed.
Even the fabled Yamaha Vmax 4 cylinder 2 smoker sled had to reduce the rpms of the crank due to the motor high revving nature. I think the newer Apex and R1 do as well.
I do like to think outside the box BUT not if it means a ton of custom parts I would be afraid of breaking and not getting a repalcement easy for. I will also suffer a few extra pounds for tougher parts whenever I can as I mostly play and aint racing for bucks.
I have had enough stuff break on me that I wish for reliability first. 300 horsepower is NO FUN is its not getting to those wheels.
I sold my Honda Pilot. It was HELLA fun. But something going wrong meant a search and a small fortune for simple parts.
I wish for parts you can either make on a lath or buy at any local Autozone or Napa or scrap yard.
A shaft behind the motor is somewhat cheap. Easy to make and easy to have a spare in case you had to change it. Something from inside a case not meant for it can add up to problems in a hurry. The cost of specail shafts and specail cases means you could have bought the better sled motor in MY opinion.
And won't fit.
I agree 100%
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The reduction is a must for sure...But its a bit to much imo, all tho it does offer increased torque... ;D I like the shaft idea as well, but i dont have enuff room for that...The chain would have to have about 1/2" between sprockets...
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Think about it.To keep the rear sprocket a reasonable diameter you HAVE to have a primary reduction in the gear train.
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Think about it.To keep the rear sprocket a reasonable diameter you HAVE to have a primary reduction in the gear train.
Huh, you have to have the reduction for the rpm range, but the 1.87 in the 750 is a bit to much IMO, the 1.5 or whatever of the busa would be much better, keep the range in the 8 k or so as you said...What way does the clutch basket turn fabber?
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Wrong way.Forget it.
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Bug you are fighting an extra Gremlin in the fact that you alreay have a frame you are being forced to work inside. This would be really different if building it all.
Something I have thought of with the shaft behind the motor that "MIGHT" help you is to run a chain off the bike motor to the shaft BEHING the tranny then mount the dirve CVT there and the belt forward.
Be easy to get to too tune. But is there room behind the drak tranny for it or would it need more room built?
I am soo thinking Evilbay and Craigs list and crashedtoys for a good four stroke sled motor. A lil persistance here will net you a mtor that is easy to install and looks like it belongs there. At a fair price. but the best thing is you will know it be harder to break than a shaft off the crank of a bike motor.
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I agree with nuts BTW.
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Ya, I likely wont ever do it anyhow.. a apex motor would be sweet, but not at the price...
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Nitrous is cheap!!
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Sled motors are genrally cheap. Go to a common snowmobiliers bar. watch for a fool whos already drunk from the last bar he was at.
When he leaves the keys and goes inside theres your motor....
Make sure you carry all the common devices for kill switche tethers used in case the drunk actually remmebered to clip that onto his belt.
I am kidding of course. :P
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Nitrous is cheap!!
not for a 2 smoke... ;D
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You can't run off the primary clutch basket because it spins the wrong direction, to make it work, you would need to add a second shaft with a set of gears to run the cvt off off that spins the correct ratio, and since you already like the ratio of the primary gear, your basically gonna run a 1:1 ratio off it to the cvt.
You are only a slightly higher ratio in 6th. gear than trying to run off the primary, so why not just stick it in 6th, gear, disconnect the shifter off the motor, and run the cvt off the motors output shaft, you have to have a second set of gears to get the primary to spin in the correct direction, just use 6th. gear and it's the same thing, only 5 or 6 more foot pounds of torque and you don't have to rig up some complicated mess.....
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You can't run off the primary clutch basket because it spins the wrong direction, to make it work, you would need to add a second shaft with a set of gears to run the cvt off off that spins the correct ratio, and since you already like the ratio of the primary gear, your basically gonna run a 1:1 ratio off it to the cvt.
You are only a slightly higher ratio in 6th. gear than trying to run off the primary, so why not just stick it in 6th, gear, disconnect the shifter off the motor, and run the cvt off the motors output shaft, you have to have a second set of gears to get the primary to spin in the correct direction, just use 6th. gear and it's the same thing, only 5 or 6 more foot pounds of torque and you don't have to rig up some complicated mess.....
the only downfall I see is the lack off rpms... but ideally the sprocket would be the easiest way to do it, the cvt clutch could sit on its own bearings, and shaft over to the motor, eliminating the hammering action of the cvt on the engine...
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But do you have room for that???
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But do you have room for that???
Yes i could do that..I can move my trans back a pretty good bit to acomidate the extra length...I just dont see good clutch tuning at 6000 rpm.. that would be near redline of the engine as well...
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I think my solution is to drop a 800 in it and call it good, has about 35% more hp and torque, probbaly enuff to overcome my gearing issue a good bit...
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I can't argue with the 800 engine for curing some issues.
If you move the tranny will that screw with the CV alignment of the Drak setup?
Still thinking the drive clutch BEHIND the tranny you got on a shaft with a chain driving it would be the ticket! But still a tad funny looking. Is there room for that?
I have missed a Artic cat 660 turbo four stroke that had hit a tree but was running perfect and no motor damage for 700.00 bucks. I figured in a light machine that would be good but I have seen some videos of them in some two seat minis and it was decenlty impressive.
Just gotta shop around and be first.
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I can't argue with the 800 engine for curing some issues.
If you move the tranny will that screw with the CV alignment of the Drak setup?
Still thinking the drive clutch BEHIND the tranny you got on a shaft with a chain driving it would be the ticket! But still a tad funny looking. Is there room for that?
I have missed a Artic cat 660 turbo four stroke that had hit a tree but was running perfect and no motor damage for 700.00 bucks. I figured in a light machine that would be good but I have seen some videos of them in some two seat minis and it was decenlty impressive.
Just gotta shop around and be first.
I can rotate the trans backwards, and keep the cvs in the same place, it kinda lays forward as is....
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http://www.rhinoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17392 (http://www.rhinoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17392)
You can see some links here or look up rhino wheelies on youtube but the links at the above will show you a rhino "type" vehicle with a 660 turbo cat engine.
You can find more about it at Glamis.com or the main glamis dunes site as well.
I do not know if the motors built or stock. I was led to believe its stock.
The terrain does favor the wheelie some. But still.
Just to show a little about this particular four stroke sled engine.
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You would actually need to put the motor in the lowest gear. The problem with using 6th. gear, (or the primary gear) is your geared high, to get the rpms down to a more useful level, your gonna have to have a huge cvt setup that will drop the ratio down considerably just to take off, using the lowest gear, you start from there and going up in gearing isn't such a jump.
Ok, I sat and calculated this out for about 30 min., so i'm fairly confident all my numbers are correct. What I basically did was to figure out the gear ratio from the primary to first, then through a 5:1 gear box (20.871:1), I did the same thing in 6th (8.321:1). I then figured the ratio from the primary and 1st. as a starting point, and divided that number by 20.871:1 to see what I needed for a low cvt gear. I then figured the ratio from the primary and 1st. as a starting point, and divided that number by 8.321:1 to see what I needed for a high cvt gear.
I then multiplied the primary and 6th. gear, then divided that number by 20.871:1 to see what I needed for a low cvt ratio. I then multiplied the primary and the 6th. gear, then divided that number by 8.321:1 to see what I need for a final high cvt ratio.
20.87:1 final drive in 1st. going through stock tranny and a 5:1 gearbox
8.32:1 final drive in 6th. going through stock tranny and a 5:1 gearbox
using 6th. gear off the motor, you'll need a cvt that can get you
12.54:1 for a low gear to achieve the 20.87:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
5:1 ratio for high gear to achieve the 8.32:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
using 1st. gear, you'll need a cvt that can start you off with a
5:1 for a low gear to achieve the 20.87:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
2:1 ratio for high. gear to achieve the 8.32:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
It's far easier to achieve the 5:1 and 2:1 ratio from 1st. than to try and hit the 12.5:1 and 8.32:1 ratio of using 6th.
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You would actually need to put the motor in the lowest gear. The problem with using 6th. gear, (or the primary gear) is your geared high, to get the rpms down to a more useful level, your gonna have to have a huge cvt setup that will drop the ratio down considerably just to take off, using the lowest gear, you start from there and going up in gearing isn't such a jump.
Ok, I sat and calculated this out for about 30 min., so i'm fairly confident all my numbers are correct. What I basically did was to figure out the gear ratio from the primary to first, then through a 5:1 gear box (20.871:1), I did the same thing in 6th (8.321:1). I then figured the ratio from the primary and 1st. as a starting point, and divided that number by 20.871:1 to see what I needed for a low cvt gear. I then figured the ratio from the primary and 1st. as a starting point, and divided that number by 8.321:1 to see what I needed for a high cvt gear.
I then multiplied the primary and 6th. gear, then divided that number by 20.871:1 to see what I needed for a low cvt ratio. I then multiplied the primary and the 6th. gear, then divided that number by 8.321:1 to see what I need for a final high cvt ratio.
20.87:1 final drive in 1st. going through stock tranny and a 5:1 gearbox
8.32:1 final drive in 6th. going through stock tranny and a 5:1 gearbox
using 6th. gear off the motor, you'll need a cvt that can get you
12.54:1 for a low gear to achieve the 20.87:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
5:1 ratio for high gear to achieve the 8.32:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
using 1st. gear, you'll need a cvt that can start you off with a
5:1 for a low gear to achieve the 20.87:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
2:1 ratio for high. gear to achieve the 8.32:1 final ratio going through the stock tranny and 5:1 gearbox
It's far easier to achieve the 5:1 and 2:1 ratio from 1st. than to try and hit the 12.5:1 and 8.32:1 ratio of using 6th.
yoshi, right now my car runs 8600 rpms, the cvt is right on the crank, 0 reduction, i think the cvt is about 4:1 at take off, it shifts to about 1:1 idealy...the problem with the bike motor in 1st gear, is the clutch will only spin like 2500 rpms... it needs to spin around 7500 minimum i think... my inital gear ratio would be about 18:1 makes up for the crank torque numbers, rather than the multiplied torque number that a shifter car has. it probbaly near instanly shifts to around 2:1, so the ratio then changes to what about 9:1 if i hold the ratio in the cvt longer the rpms wont stay flat, they will rise quickly them lower as it shifts, the cvt system really is a pain in the ass to get right, i still dont have it right, lol...Ideally what i need right now with the current setup is to have the engine maintain 85-8600 rpms, and have a final fnr reduction of about 6:1-7:1, Odypilots is 10:1 in his pilot, same engine...I feel its a bit to low...so my inital gear ratio should be about 28:1 shifting rather quickly to 14:1 then ultimitley to 7:1...
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I think your numbers are right on actually, the problem is getting the clutch to work effectivley in the small rpm range that it is spinning...
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http://www.rhinoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17392 (http://www.rhinoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17392)
You can see some links here or look up rhino wheelies on youtube but the links at the above will show you a rhino "type" vehicle with a 660 turbo cat engine.
You can find more about it at Glamis.com or the main glamis dunes site as well.
I do not know if the motors built or stock. I was led to believe its stock.
The terrain does favor the wheelie some. But still.
Just to show a little about this particular four stroke sled engine.
they have put the 660's in the formula crosses as well, Livewire has a few engines now, they are turbo as well, id rather keep NA myself, and they have a hefty price tag as well...
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hmmm,..sounds like you need something like this and stick a rev limiter on the motor for 8500 rpm..http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm (http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm)
;D Suzuki makes a car motor that is the same litres as a busa, we wondered if the heads and jug would fit the block...Looks very similar...
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Clutch spins the wrong direction, on the wrong side of the car, solution, put the engine in the car backwards, were are we now, how do we connect it to the basket?
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Connecting to the basket just like the clutch does.
Have a piece made that fits right inside the clutch and has fingers that fit into the clutches fingers then send s the power thru a shaft out the case. The tough part is a case with a hole in it for the power to come out yet still be able to hold the side loads a CVT will impose.
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Connecting to the basket just like the clutch does.
Have a piece made that fits right inside the clutch and has fingers that fit into the clutches fingers then send s the power thru a shaft out the case. The tough part is a case with a hole in it for the power to come out yet still be able to hold the side loads a CVT will impose.
the outside of the drive clutch would have to be supported, if you supported it with a bearing in the cover as well, thick cover, yould probbaly have it, the basket is deep enuff, you could put a piece off rubber in between the new adapter and the back of the basket to absorb the hammering action of the cvt clutch....
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were is the power from the crank, to the outer basket, or to the center? one or the other has to go to the transmission...
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Anyone have a breakdown picture of a suzuki engine? Showing the trans crank etc?
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http://www.bikebandit.com/suzuki-motorcycle-parts-2007/oem-parts (http://www.bikebandit.com/suzuki-motorcycle-parts-2007/oem-parts)
Go thier and pick your bitch. Exploded diagram should show what you seek.
I went to 2007 but you can jump back and change the year if need be.
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I cant tell, but does the clutch basket mesh with the crank? sure looks like it...But then were does the primary reduction take place...
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You were talking gixxer 750 then Hayabusa. What motor and what year? I will take a look and see if I can tell.
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You were talking gixxer 750 then Hayabusa. What motor and what year? I will take a look and see if I can tell.
whatever, they all gotta work pretty much the same, I think if i was gonna attempt this, i would use a gixxer 600 for cheap up front costs to see if it would even work, IMO the solution, since the shaft looks pretty short, may be to machine a new output shaft that is tapered, and attach the cvt clutch directly to the counter shaft, still supporting it on the outside...
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This is getting funny.
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I meant INTERESTING.LOL!!!
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I meant INTERESTING.LOL!!!
counter shaft at 11k would only be turning 4600 in 6th gear, wont work IMO...Clutch would be to finacy, and the rpms wouldnt never be there for any speed...
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There is plenty of clutches on the market capable of 12k maybe just stick it right on the crank... ;D
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The Zukis are just like the Banshee motors. The crank has a gear on it that meshes with a gear on the outer edge of the clutch basket and the power is transmitted from the baskets outer fingers thru the clutch plates then to the innards. Then a shaft takes that power into the tranny gears.
How much you hoping to do this swap for? (beside as cheap as possible?) I stll think you should look for a four stroke sled wreck. You got the room sideways for a three or four cyl in there? I know they have doone them with Geo engines but not sure if the frame was different much.
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I had the cvt idea off the clutch basket about 3 years ago, never got around to doing any real prototyping though. I did get a basket from my buddy at the time to see what would be involved, and I determined it would be pretty simply. Basically, break the rivets loose that hold the basket to the primary gear, make a steel plate that will attach to the primary gear with an output shaft. Make a new center plate for the clutch cover that is thicker and contains a bearing and a seal, turn the motor around backward and your good to go. I was gonna run an axle out to each arm and running a chain down each trailing arm to the wheels, basically as much travel as you want, only limited by the shocks. Here's a couple pics of the basket I have here, the crank spins the outter gear..
Problem your gonna have running off the basket, or 6th. gear, is your gonna need around a 12.5:1 gear ratio for the low gear, and a 5:1 gear ratio for the high gear, I don't know any cvt's that can handle that..
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http://detroit.craigslist.org/for/950538436.html (http://detroit.craigslist.org/for/950538436.html)
By the time you sell the motor you got and part out the rest of this sled on evil bay you will not have a too much into it for this motah. Putting it in would be a no sweat compared to some things.....
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here's a shot of the tranny (taken by a member in the edge forum), the clutch input shaft is on the left of the pic, you can see the crank gear just to the top left of the screen...
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The problem with not using the solid shaft is that the clutch basket rides on a bushing that rides on the tranny input shaft. This bushing is slipping any time the clutch is pulled in. When the clutch is out, the bushing is just setting on the shaft. This arrangement is not going to like any side loading out past the clutch cover. you might get away with making a solid piece that has the splines of the clutch plates on the inside, and the ears of the clutch disks on the outside, to just make the clutch solid.
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How do you think that his CVT accomplishes this now?
judging by the size of all the cvt's i've ever seen, I don't think any off them are producing 12.5:1 ratio's for low gear.
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judging by the size of all the cvt's i've ever seen, I don't think any off them are producing 12.5:1 ratio's for low gear.
Exactly, that is why Bug is having a low end problem. The clutch tries to mask the problem of not having a low enough gear. But you can't gear it any lower, because a CVT only has so much "shifting" potential, and you would limit the top end. That is why a bike that wants to go from 0-190 has six gears.
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I am just trying to figure out if you guys are confused or I am. a cvt with 3:1 gear ratio in low and a 5:1 reduction in the gear box. Gives you a 15:1 reduction from the drive clutch to the axle. If your cvt setup had a 12:1 reduction and a 5:1 tranny behind it that would be 60:1 between the drive clutch and the axle. If you had 28" tall tires and could put that power to the ground, your 0-11mph times would be incredible, but it would prolly take you all day to get very far.
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I am just trying to figure out if you guys are confused or I am. a cvt with 3:1 gear ratio in low and a 5:1 reduction in the gear box. Gives you a 15:1 reduction from the drive clutch to the axle. If your cvt setup had a 12:1 reduction and a 5:1 tranny behind it that would be 60:1 between the drive clutch and the axle. If you had 28" tall tires and could put that power to the ground, your 0-11mph times would be incredible, but it would prolly take you all day to get very far.
In my calculations, there was no 5:1 gearbox behind it, the 12:1 ratio achieved by the cvt is assuming the back of the cvt is the final drive ratio with the axles coming out of it, I guess I never really though about putting another reduction behind the cvt, which is what everyone does so I guess I should have......
factoring in the 5:1 ratio after the cvt, I believe you only need a 2.5:1 reduction for the low gear, and a 1:1 for the high gear.....if I did the numbers correct..
problem is the input for the cvt won't even break 6900 RPM. You need a little higher crank/primary gear ratio for the cvt to get where you want, which a possibility, if you could fit it, would be to stick a custom gear on the crank that was a little bigger, and a little smaller gear for the clutch basket....
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I am just trying to figure out if you guys are confused or I am. a cvt with 3:1 gear ratio in low and a 5:1 reduction in the gear box. Gives you a 15:1 reduction from the drive clutch to the axle. If your cvt setup had a 12:1 reduction and a 5:1 tranny behind it that would be 60:1 between the drive clutch and the axle. If you had 28" tall tires and could put that power to the ground, your 0-11mph times would be incredible, but it would prolly take you all day to get very far.
LOL..... That is some good stuff right there! and true!
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just for clarification.
An engine is an engine.
A cvt is a drive, a driven, and a belt.
A tranny, gear box, chain case, is a way to further change rpms and torque.
In a buggy that contains a cvt, you have to have all three.
Primary reduction is the first change in rpm from the crank.
in this case it would be from the crank to the clutch basket.
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This is sorta off topic and on topic, I know Bug's woes well, going to a smaller tire would help alot... With the CVT's I work with as I stated in sled power is 3.38 to 1 at 1st engagement...If I remember right Bug's box is like 4 to 1? this is only giving a 7.38 out of the hole and reducing as the CVT does it's job...
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a cvt generally is driven directly from the crank, so they see from 0-8500 rpms range of use, I could see possibly tuning from the basket, but i cant see tuneability from the countershaft, you guys are confusing yourself is all...
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Why can't a cvt be tuned for 6500 max I don't see the problem .Educate me.
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I think because it works on centrifigual force. The greater the range, the greater the tunability. I think it is exponential to..... as the rpm increases.
But I would think that all of the change would be in by 6500?
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I dont think you can get the countershaft speed to 6500, if you could i think it would work, it would be a bitch to tune at first, but once had it would be sweet...
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Of course it's centrifugal force controlled and that is adjusted with different cams and weights.There's no reason I know of why you can't get the same reduction range at 6500 as you would have with 8500 rpm that I know of. All it takes its the correct balance .
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on a gixxer 600 at 11000 rpm, the primary reduction is already...5800..
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Busa-11500K divided by 1.596=7205 off the CS. What's the problem?.
Smaller motor-higher rpm/primary reduction gives a similar CS rpm.The 600 redlines much higher than 11000
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Possible, as it will lower the inital engagement dramticly as well, at 1500 rpm idle the cvt would be turning 800 rpms, so at 4000 engine rpms you could have engagement at around 2200 this is just primary redcution tho, still have to factor in 6th gear reduction...
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Busa-11500K divided by 1.596=7205 off the CS. What's the problem?.
Smaller motor-higher rpm/primary reduction gives a similar CS rpm.The 600 redlines much higher than 11000
i agree, but imagine running everywere at 13500 rpm, they make power around 10500 go over and your waisting it...Whole idea behind a cvt to is to get to maximum engine torque and maintain it thoughout the shifft range....
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so basicly i would want the engine rpms to come to 10500 until i have full shift out of the cvt, then let the rpms climb to redline...
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Sorry, one more, 600 primary reduction is 1.87...The 1.56 busa would be better, or whatever it was... to costly for me in trial and error situation....
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I don't think you're looking at this right.Step back for a bit and think about it.A 600 has what about a 14K redline and will cruise at what 11K? 5800 or so CS rpm at cruising speed.Problem?
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7734 at 14K engine.
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I understand that part....just as you say cruise at about 11k right were it makes its power, so thats were we need to figure all the clutching, after that there is no clutching, it will all be shifted out, let it go to redline to get max mph...See what i am saying?
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The more i think about it, I think 5500-6000 would be useable for the cvt.. but your only figuring it from the primary reduction, if it was to go countershaft, you have to reduce by that gear as well...Or is that in your math? 600 is 1.974 i think, and 6th gear is 1.18 i think have to look again...
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a gixxer 1000 is in the affordable range, with a primary reduction of 1.553 probbaly the best candidate for the deal if it was done, 80lbs torque at 10500 rpm... in 6th gear it should spin around 6100 rpm at 10500 engine speed...
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For a reasonable cost i believe you can swap 6th gear to a 1:1 ratio as well, that would be perfect then...
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They are running CVT's on Geo motors turning far less rpms. Its just a weaker spring or a heavier weight (or both).
The big issue here is getting it mounted solid. Tuning it will be easy compared to that.
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so i'm thinking, running off the clucth basket is still the wrong direction if you wanna mount the motor normally, so you need a second shaft to change the direction, so were back to trying to use the motors output shaft in a certain gear. Problem is the rpm off the primary are under 6800, and any further reductions through the tranny make them even slower, even 6th. gear. I wonder if it's possible to swap some gears in the motor. The 5th. gear ratio is 1.136:1, if you swap the 2 gears around for 5th. gear, you would be producing 7829 rpm, which would work, correct?
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They are running CVT's on Geo motors turning far less rpms. Its just a weaker spring or a heavier weight (or both).
The big issue here is getting it mounted solid. Tuning it will be easy compared to that.
they are spinning them geo motors far much more than you think... ;D
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Exactly my point.
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I am thinking it is very doable from the cs, just as you said yoshi, swap the drive and driven gears till you get a good match up...from the looks of it to me, they have the same splines... ;D it would over drive it a little, but small price to pay IMO... Now the question really is, how to make a new cs shaft that is tapered, and support it outside the clutch... ;D
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Nothing money won't cure!
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You guys want to mount a cvt to the busa? I have an engine adapter being machined now.It could easily ,I think , be adapted to incorporate a bearing in it with an outboard bearing plate also to support the cvt.All yo need special would be a driveshaft adapter for a dwarf car and a short splined shaft.Both of which I can supply as I'm having pretty much the same thing being made now also. If any of yo u are interested I'll cad up a jpeg of what I mean.
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I do not doubt they get wound up. But unless the cams and all were changed they are made to be a street driven a car motor and make thier power lower than most bike motors. I do not see them lasting a real long time wound to the gills. Still I would be curious to know what they do run at and survive in these creations just to know.
You might consider getting ahold of Opsled on "that other place" to see if he can aide you in landing a four stroke baby with a CVT already on it. (Unless hes here too. I do not recall a post from him.)
If not he likely can aid you in a newer two stroke that has monster torque (and you might get fuel injection out of the deal)
I have seen and heard that a lot of the newer 700cc and 800 twins were making monster torque and even more than my 94 machz 780 triple. Plus they weigh less. He would know most likely.
1st, no way i am paying more for an engine than i can buy the entire sled for = Opsled... Second i have already researched all the big twins, that is an option, 3rd do you know anyone with a cvt bike engine? Why do you keep pushing towards the 4 stroke sled engine Mr. Outofthebox... This is a pipe dream, something to talk about....could be done and very well may someday... ;D
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You guys want to mount a cvt to the busa? I have an engine adapter being machined now.It could easily ,I think , be adapted to incorporate a bearing in it with an outboard bearing plate also to support the cvt.All yo need special would be a driveshaft adapter for a dwarf car and a short splined shaft.Both of which I can supply as I'm having pretty much the same thing being made now also. If any of yo u are interested I'll cad up a jpeg of what I mean.
feel free, need some clutch specs?
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I will have to take more pics, the ones i have do not show what you wish to see easily, it would be tight but i see what you are saying now....that wouldnt cost shit to do either, no special parts really, just some keyed stressproof shafting...and some bearings...
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http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq182/buggyfabber/ (http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/qq182/buggyfabber/)
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You don't like it tight? Eh to each his own..... ;D
But yah I guess I could do a sketch up but it sounds like you understand what I am thinking might be a way for you to do it with not to much hell.
I was not even thinking keyed shaft. Just a blunt end (a common car straight axle might work nicely) You turn the wheel flange down till you can make a simple sprocket mount for a popular sprocket then the front side can be drilled for a common CVT adaptor that bolts to a crank. Thats how I invision it with my adaptors at this point.
It could also be turned to the taper and the CVT bolted right to it for that matter. A bit harder but not major tough. Get it heat treated and your off.
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You don't like it tight? Eh to each his own..... ;D
But yah I guess I could do a sketch up but it sounds like you understand what I am thinking might be a way for you to do it with not to much hell.
I was not even thinking keyed shaft. Just a blunt end (a common car straight axle might work nicely) You turn the wheel flange down till you can make a simple sprocket mount for a popular sprocket then the front side can be drilled for a common CVT adaptor that bolts to a crank. Thats how I invision it with my adaptors at this point.
It could also be turned to the taper and the CVT bolted right to it for that matter. A bit harder but not major tough. Get it heat treated and your off.
atv carrier, then you can tighten the chain, if mounted right it would never effect the belt lash, dunno if you could machine and tap the atv axle tho, but you got a spline sprocket carrier and everything then...maybe a bit to big tho... you just need to drive down and buy this rc shit from me, and check it out....you could put some wings on this boat... i eve got an electric plane you could use to convert to boat to electric... ;D
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You don't like it tight? Eh to each his own..... ;D
But yah I guess I could do a sketch up but it sounds like you understand what I am thinking might be a way for you to do it with not to much hell.
I was not even thinking keyed shaft. Just a blunt end (a common car straight axle might work nicely) You turn the wheel flange down till you can make a simple sprocket mount for a popular sprocket then the front side can be drilled for a common CVT adaptor that bolts to a crank. Thats how I invision it with my adaptors at this point.
It could also be turned to the taper and the CVT bolted right to it for that matter. A bit harder but not major tough. Get it heat treated and your off.
16yrs w ol lady, what the heck does tight mean...
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Buy more RC shit..... ??? I need to sell these last 20 trucks I have. (35 if you count the Thunder Kings in the garage)
Not to mention I got at least 15 and closer to twenty planes. And I aint been able to only fly one at a time so far!
Make her do kegels. That'll bring it around. I used to date a girl who did that and my god would that give you lil orphan Annie eyes. (Thats when they roll back into your head and go all white its so good. For those who don't know.)