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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: Yummi on August 01, 2009, 05:42:08 PM
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OK, So last trip out, the rear hub let loose. I thought it was the transmission, but the more i hope about it - it may be the hub spinning.
So, took it apart today and aside from the nut being slightly stripped, it looks like the key ways are in good shape. This occurred on the left hand side, the right is tight, etc. There was a lot of play in it from side to side....
Weird huh? I really don't think this was a case of just being loose? Could it be?
So, what is the next step? As i have no frame of reference, does it seem like the splines on the hub should be longer to allow more surface area of contact? if so, do i buy two new hubs, and away I go with new brakes, bearings, etc?
Pictures attached as i am tired of the words today....
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Have you pulled the other side?
I don't know shit about those hubs bit it doesn't look like much splining in the hub for the amount of splines on the shaft
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Thats what i thought - i mean really now - 200+ going through that narrow splines? that is only about 1/4 wide on the hub. I am looking around online for options.
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Thats what i thought - i mean really now - 200+ going through that narrow splines? that is only about 1/4 wide on the hub. I am looking around online for options.
Looks to me like some one has taken a bus hub and turned the center potion down to fit the type three stub axle. The bus hub is a bunch thicker at the center then a type three. Any stock VW hub should have about two to two and one half inchences of spline in them. The brake calipers are type three from the stationwagon VW. Them hubs look like they came off of and early gear reduction box VW bus gear box.
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Now I see it. Some one has taken a bus hub and turned it down and put in on backwards. Then on the outside of the installed backwards hub they have taken a second hub and turned off the hat and used it for a spacer. All this so the type three brake caliper would work. when they turned the inside hub around backwards they had to machine off the stub portion of the hub with the splines in it so they could get the nut on. Yep that's it. Sounds like a mouth full but that's it.
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The four spokes you see on the front of the hub should in all reality be on the inside of the stock VW hub. Not on the out side showing.
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are you sure the hub was even engaging the splines on the stub? In your pic the splines on the hub are on the outside. If the hub got loose, it could have slid off the splines.
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I may be missing something here but it looks to me like the axle sheared the splines out from the hub.
Unless someone rough machined all the splines out?
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should i pull the other side and see what it looks like to get a better idea of what is going on?
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I would ;D
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I agree too and I bet its (the hub) got splines the entire length of the axle.
I bet you got a tough axle (good heat treat) and likely a poor heat treat hub. Still its the easier weak link to change. But unless the rails a tank (I know its not) the hub should have held one would think.
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wowsers - the right side is what i would expect to see - splnes all the way through - how weird is that? what would cause the left to fail like that?
The axle with the nut is detail of the left axle - it looks like the threads need to be cleaned and then it is good?
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How sloppy was the good side when the nut was backed off? The splines on the hub look worn to me.
Better let Fast take this one...It sounds like he has a clue unlike me ;D
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I bet you got a tough axle (good heat treat) and likely a poor heat treat hub. Still its the easier weak link to change. But unless the rails a tank (I know its not) the hub should have held one would think.
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well, it looks like i am in one hub, might as well be two - all i can find online so far is a hub with a brake kit - but that seems silly - must be a jammar hub or other than has not brake kit.... i would guess if i do one, i would replace both?
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AC598501&Store_Code=PC&search=hub&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high= (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=AC598501&Store_Code=PC&search=hub&offset=0&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high=)
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wait, might have found it.....
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html)
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wait, might have found it.....
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html)
That looks like the one. And yes and axle will take out the cast steel splines of a hub in short time if the nut is not torqued to 275 foot lbs.
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Thanks, that also answered the next question - 275?
Gonna need a bigger wrench......
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We used a tq.wrench that was about 4 foot long at the dealership I worked at. I'd suggest using a tq. multiplier with a smaller tq.wrench(that I assume you already have) as a cheaper alternative to buying a big azz(expensive) tq. wrench. I'l tell you this also,275 is very hard to do withstock brakes. Why? Well because 275 ft. lb. is a bunch of torque and it easily is more than the stock brakes can hold. We ,manytimes,could not reach the proper tq before the brakes slipped so we used a 3/4 inch drive impact after torqueing to as much as the brakes would allow to"top it off" as the VW of America tech people suggested. That's not shown in any of the tech info tho.
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Thanks, that also answered the next question - 275?
Gonna need a bigger wrench......
OK now bear with me here a second. Take a long piece of pipe about six or eight feet long. Weld on two tabs with holes in them about the same size as your studs. Spaced far enough apart to go over two studs on the hub. Using the pipe or cheater you mite call it position it on the hub. This will keep the hub from turning. And then your can use a smaller break over bar and lock down the big nut. If your break over bar is two feet long and you were to weigh about 200 lbs then with you standing on the bar and jump up and down on that would put you in the ball park of 275 FT lbs.
I Bet engineer could draw up something real quick in cad to show this? I use a long piece of steel bar that is 1.0 squared with two holes drilled in it. I weigh in at 230 LB and can jump on a 3/4 breaker bar two feet long and get the nut tight.
I have never striped one of these nuts out from doing it this way.
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That'll get you there also. Won't be accurate but will do the job every bit as well as the 3/4" impact will . LOL!! Nope never had a nut strip but if a person did then the 275 was way way overshot. Whatever you do make sure it's TIGHT. Much better than being loose as yummi found out.
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I ground 2 flat spots on my 36mm socket and put a pipe whench on it with a 4-5 foot cheater. Works good
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If your break over bar is two feet long and you were to weigh about 200 lbs then with you standing on the bar and jump up and down on that would put you in the ball park of 275 FT lbs.
If your breaker bar is two feet long, you weigh 200 pounds and you stand on it, you are applying 400 ft/lbs of torque to the fastener. Jumping up and down could double or triple that...
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wowsers - the right side is what i would expect to see - splnes all the way through - how weird is that? what would cause the left to fail like that?
The axle with the nut is detail of the left axle - it looks like the threads need to be cleaned and then it is good?
I used to have a Baja Bug (30+ years ago) and I had problems stripping the splines out of the drum....I think it typcially happened on one side since I was running an open diff.
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If your breaker bar is two feet long, you weigh 200 pounds and you stand on it, you are applying 400 ft/lbs of torque to the fastener. Jumping up and down could double or triple that...
+1
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If your breaker bar is two feet long, you weigh 200 pounds and you stand on it, you are applying 400 ft/lbs of torque to the fastener. Jumping up and down could double or triple that...
Thank you. If I would have made that post, I would have been accused of picking on someone. ;)
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I used to have a buddy that would ALWAYS use a torque wrench on everything he tightened.Didn't matter what it was he'd look it up or use the bolt grade to determine the torque needed. Then he would TURN THE BOLT ANOTHER 1/2 turn!?!?!?!?!?! Real bright boy he was! LOL!!!!
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Also, at the truck workshop I used to work at, most of the trucks were newer Euro trucks with alloy wheels, which meant 10 stud hubs with wheelnuts that needed to be done up to 800Nm (600ft/lbs)...
After a morning changing wheels on three trucks (that's undoing and then doing up 180 of those fxxken wheelnuts by hand...), I was almost dead, despite our 1000Nm torque wrench being four feet long (great for leverage, but the thing weighed about 20 pounds!).
So I cheated. I made an adapter for my two foot long half inch drive torque wrench - I got a 32 mm six-sided 3/4 drive impact socket and welded a four foot long piece of really stiff thin walled tube we had laying about the workshop to it. Then I measured exactly four feet between centres and welded an half-inch drive impact socket onto the other end of the pipe.
I never measured it, but by the feel of it in my hand, my tool and wrench together weighed about half as much as the big torque wrench, and my work effort was reduced too. Also, it made it easy for me to make terrible jokes about having a six foot long tool. Then of course my mates called me a six foot long tool...
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Thank you. If I would have made that post, I would have been accused of picking on someone. ;)
Everybody makes simple mistakes sometimes - on a bad day at work, I was trying to tighten left hand thread wheelnuts right handed...
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If your breaker bar is two feet long, you weigh 200 pounds and you stand on it, you are applying 400 ft/lbs of torque to the fastener. Jumping up and down could double or triple that...
True but your never putting a full 200 on the bar. You always have to be hanging onto somthing to balance ones self. So you lose about 100 lb's. :o
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True but your never putting a full 200 on the bar. You always have to be hanging onto somthing to balance ones self. So you lose about 100 lb's. :o
Thank you - you just gave me a new pick up line:
"Here honey; hold this for balance - you will loose weight....."
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Thank you - you just gave me a new pick up line:
"Here honey; hold this for balance - you will loose weight....."
LMAO jj:
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True but your never putting a full 200 on the bar. You always have to be hanging onto somthing to balance ones self. So you lose about 100 lb's. :o
Dunno about you mate but I am the prettiest of ballerina princesses and I used to do jumps, flips and spins whilst standing on mine... ;D
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Thank you - you just gave me a new pick up line:
"Here honey; hold this for balance - you will loose weight....."
I'm worried about you, hitting on chicks that need to lose (at least) 100 lbs! Is Bug your wingman when you go out hunting ;D
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If your breaker bar is two feet long, you weigh 200 pounds and you stand on it, you are applying 400 ft/lbs of torque to the fastener. Jumping up and down could double or triple that...
I only need a 1 foot breaker to stand on for the proper torque. :-[
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wait, might have found it.....
http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/AC502020.html)
I don't know if this part completely addresses the problem. As Fast was mentioning earlier, they played with several parts to get it to all work with the brake hat etc. This part doesn't show a hat to hold the brake rotor or does it?. And I don't know if yours will bolt on if they were using the hub backwards. If this part includes a brake rotor, you need to make sure that it would line up correctly with your caliper. I don't know anything about VW parts so mabey someone else can say if that 4 bolt flange bearing is stock VW. If it isn't then you may need a custom caliper mount, or if you bought a complete hub/brake kit It may not bolt up with the correct spacing.
Summation: I don't know anything about these, but if I ordered the parts they probably wouldn't fit. ;D