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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: Yummi on November 02, 2008, 07:04:21 PM
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BTW when are you going to post some pictures?
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Of a cracked timing belt cover? Of a weekend? Of cars I can't afford? Of me being scared senseless in the bowl from hell that had no apparent bottom? What sort of pictures you want?
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Of a cracked timing belt cover? Of a weekend? Of cars I can't afford? Of me being scared senseless in the bowl from hell that had no apparent bottom? What sort of pictures you want?
Pics of your car in general... ;D
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I changed the belts on my borthers 2.5 dual over head cam and I will tell you this. Have a shop do it!
First off while you are in there you need to replace the water pump. Why? Cause if you do not it will fail right after its back together. Murphy says so. If its bearings fail it can let the belt slip and you already know what that does. If it just leaks it will cause other problems. The timing belt runs on the water pump to drive it.
Its not a bad idea to replace ALL the bearings the belt rides on. You can usually get a kit off ebay with all the wearing parts for a fair price IF you decide to do it yourself.
While your in there you will want to replace the four camshaft seals for the same reason. They will leak within a short time if you dont! (Effin Murphy) Then you get to go back in!! Make sure the new seals are the Subaru brown seals. They are the new standard.
Also replace the little "O" ring seal behind the oil pump. If your wondering why see above. As well as the crankshaft front seal.
Heres the real kick in the nuts. Get or rent or buy a tool that will hold BOTH camshafts at the same time (This means you need two!) If you rotate either side the wrong way the valves (in the 2.5 it will hit. I heard that all dual cam setups will hit and the 2.5 single cam will hit pistons as well.) Only the 2.0 single cam is a non interferance. (on dual cams the valves can hit the pistons and each other and bend!) At that point the heads come off at the very least $$.
The tool is needed to hold the cams so this rotation does not happen. The book my brother had showed using a large channel locks on the camshaft sprockets to hold them while loosening the nut that holds the sprocket on. It works OK on the passenger side where the pullies are convex. The "nut flanges" stick right out there. Easy to get on. However on the drivers side they are concave and you aint getting no channel locks on those.......... It's recessed quite well. I will not tell you how I did it as it requires/involves sacrificing virgins to demons and pig blood and two cornish hens....and a hitchhiker. But I have said to much already...
The tools hold them so they do not spin and so that you can loosen the bolts that hold the pullies to the cams with normal sockets. There are tools that engauge the teeth on the pullies and get wedged in between the two and the Subaru tool actually is a funny looking double ended box wrench that actually fits the nut inside the pullies and holds them right where they need to be. Then you gotta get the old seals out without damaging the cam seals surface area and seat the new seals. Fun! You loosen each bolt in the cams just enoguh then take out the tool and remove the pullies and replace the seals. The place the pullies back on carefulley and put the tool back in there and locktite it and torque those bolts.
Then there are belts. The belts have little marks on them to match teeth to alingment marks on the sprockets. I cannot remember which ones but there are a couple companies that have belts with the marks one tooth off. Not good. (I found this doing searches on the internet) These marks all line up with marks on the pullies and there will also be marks on the plastic housing (like part of your broken plastic) that surrounds the belt. If ALL of these are not lined up you are gonna have an issue. The manual will tell you to double check the belt by counting the teeth around the belt to make sure the marks are correct. More fun!
Also you need to put a new hydraulic belt tensioner on it. Or not but the risk is it will fail and slip and $$$$$ noises. Also you need to be VERY careful how you push the plunger in IF you decide to reuse it. Do it to fast and you ruin it. It only goes maybe 3/8ths of an inch but it takes (It better) a few minutes or more to push it in to allow it to relieve the hydraulic pressure. (Then you pin it to hold it) Don't try to flip it sideways and do it in a vice either. You need to keep it upright if your model has that type of tensioner.
I think I remembered everything but maybe not. Many Subee owners hate the shops cause they think they are getting robbed when the shop tries to tell them to do it all at once to save money going back in. Many refuse and when the water pump or oil seals on the pump go out shortly later they think the shop set it up to fail. Then have a another large bill to pay to go all the way back in to finish the job.
If you are gonna work on Subbees all the time invest in the tools. But if only once or twice have a shop do it that knows these. If your plastic is cracked go get replacement at the scrap yard. Have the mechanic replace it all at once.
Also to hold the crankshaft while trying to get the front pulley nut off you can hold it easier at the back of the motor through the flywheel timing port.
If your still sane when you get done let us know! Mmmm luv my padded cell.
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And I thought I wanted a Subaru. 3:
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LOL! nice write up.
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I think I'll stay out of the Suubie realm after reading that :o
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BTW that was a great and entertaining write-up
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I changed the belts on my borthers 2.5 dual over head cam and I will tell you this. Have a shop do it!
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If your still sane when you get done let us know! Mmmm luv my padded cell.
Nutz:
WOW! more than I expected. Thanks so much for taking the time to give the details. I am sold on the subi - pound for pound I think it is best for me.
Sounds like writing the check will be less painful than tackling this myself. Sometimes the best route is to know your limits. Gonna have to think some more on this......
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Nutz:
WOW! more than I expected. Thanks so much for taking the time to give the details. I am sold on the subi - pound for pound I think it is best for me.
Sounds like writing the check will be less painful than tackling this myself. Sometimes the best route is to know your limits. Gonna have to think some more on this......
Excellent advice IMO.
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I will say hands down holding the cams is the biggest pain in the ash and the one that can cost you the most IF they spin and do damage. If you have a subee you are gonna keep for a buggy and maybe get more Subee buggies then I would say splurge on the tools from Subaru. They will make the job MUCH better to do. I would NOT do it again without them. I do not recall the direct cost but its like 180 for one I think. It was a lot. (Don't forget you need two. You might get away with one.) Then you still gotta do the work. You might score them off ebay on an off chance but I dunno how often they come up. There were none when I did it I know that.
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We need an "album" feature in our profiles - that would be nice - click on a members name, see their rides... that would be cool.
Close enuff? http://dtsfab.com/index/index.php?action=gallery
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How to tell if your subaru is a guy or a girl......
Slightly off topic but a important thing to know.
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How to tell if your subaru is a guy or a girl......
Slightly off topic but a important thing to know.
Mine is a girl - how do I know? Bitch costs too much money just to get her in the right frame of mind.
BTY, is a kit like this what you were discussing re: all the parts?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350116899126&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350116899126&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:MOTORS:1123)
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Yes yummi thats the kind of kit I am refferring to. Make sure the parts are name brand quality.
If its not a rush job you might take it apart and if every bearing feels perfect you may reuse but its a risk. If bad then order a kit.
But at the same time even a new bearing can fail if something in it lets go and for all you know the timing belt thats on the motor now would run another 100,000 miles. Yet the new belt might have a flaw that makes it fail right away.
Fun eh? Thats the catch. You might fix your broken plastic toss on JUST a new belt (or even your old one) and be better off than spending 300 to 500 plus bucks!
I do NOT like interferance engines that are not all internal oiled parts with steel driving the parts and even then.
The best part? My mom had ("had" because: some asshole in Phoenix last year talking on a cell phone rear ended her with a full size ford pickup doing 40 while she was stopped at a red light) a Subee wagon with a single overhead cam 2.0 It got better mileage than any 2.5 I have seen or drove and would outrun all the 2.5s it lined up against except the all out performance ones in SRX's. It would run 90 miles an hour effortlessly and run past 100 with ease getting 27 miles to the gallon. At 65 to 70 where my mom drove it it got 32+ miles to the gallon. God I liked that car. And the motor was the NON INTERFERANCE. I would have loved to see that same motor with a turbo and cams/pistons to work with it. It would be far better than the nitemare the 2.5 is.
Sad that they (Subaru) have fallen so bad. There have been many attempts to have class action lawsuits agaisnt them for the 2.5 nitemare as many are failing all near the same mileage almost like clock work.
Hell the old 1.8 in block motor would run 450,000 miles if you kept it below redline and oil in it. The only real issue was the valve covers would leak and those could be changed in less than ten minutes with one tool. 2.5 is Progress eh? Plus they got great mileage! Yah they ran a little cantankorously but I will take that over pistons kissing valves ANYDAY.
OK rant off..... Not sure where it started.
If you want factory parts there was a place in the state of Washington state. I am trying to find the number. Even with the shipping the prices were better than any other I found. if I find the number I will post it.
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http://www.subaruparts.com/ (http://www.subaruparts.com/)
Is the cheapest place I found to get genuine Subee parts even with shipping.
Also order yourself at least one but I recommend several of these part number: # SOA635071
Thats the little bottle of Subaru cooling system conditioner. It helps protect the head gaskets which are notorious for failing. The little bottles are one to a car the size of a Subaru. They are less than $2.00 a bottle and you need it for Subees. I bought extras and use them in anything thats older I work on. Helps stop that nasty electrolyosis from going on.
When you open the bottle it does have a funny smell. If you look at the stuff in it you will go "What the hell?" But its REQUIRED by Subaru for older motors getting worked on so I am guessing (Yup thats all just guessing) Its good stuff.
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And I thought I wanted a Subaru. 3:
I was trolling the web, and wanted to share some info on the Subaru for our application - This is not mine, but it had a lot of good information re: various Subaru configurations - just thought I would share for anybody that was thinking of going Subaru - Still the right call for me - despite the fear of the belt....
Also, after speaking with Out Front - the belt on mine seems "doable" - I know Nutz this despite your tale of caution....
I am still thinking but have the parts ordered and have a pdf diagram of the timing marks, etc and keyway - Out Front says no special tool is required to hold the cams - there is a keyway lock. Anyway - pdf attched, and info below. BTY, if you do go Subaru - the advice on Out Front below is spot on. Those guys rock.
Does this make me the resident Subaru Cheerleader?
(No not "Subaru answer man" - just a fan: Nutz sounds like the answer man.... Thanks again Nutz for the info)
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In response to the question -
"I have now noticed 2.5 Subi motors in dual and quad cam form.
What are other differences besides the cams?
Is one more desirable than the other?"
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It really depends on how much money you want to spend and what your goals are. Both motors are fun with a turbo. Both can use the stock block, pistons and rods to build a mild motor (300HP). Both typically require race gas with a turbo (there are some exeptions) But you ask a good question.
2.5L SOHC motors (what you're calling a dual cam) have slightly smaller intake/exhaust ports and deliver more low end torque. They are also simpler to work on and with the right piston setup using a butterfly cut for 100% valve clearance, you can be immune from bending valves in the case of a broken cam belt, simply because the valves cannot touch each other with a SOHC motor.
SOHC motors have the igniter circuitry in the OE coil setup. They work fine with after market EMS computer up to about 9-10lbs of boost. DOHC motors require you to buy a separate igniter to trigger the coils with an after market EMS computer.
SOHC motors have two OE sizes of injectors. If you get the model with larger injectors you can use those with up to 9lbs of boost, assuming you have a 50lb fuel regulator, or have the knack and know-how of modifying the stock OE fuel regular to deliver 40-45lbs of fuel pressure. Of course, whatever EMS computer you utilize, it will have to be tuned on a dyno specific to your injector/regulator combination. The point being..... a stock block SOHC motor can save you lots of money if you're looking for about 300HP by simply using the OE components and slapping a small turbo on it, plus you'll like the SOHC low end torque. If you ever wanted to go beyond 300HP, this is possible simply by upgrading the injector/fuel rails, pistons and rods with a close deck block, then turn up the turbo boost. These are the same upgrades you'd need with a DOHC motor for beyond 300HP, but with a DOHC motor you'd have to buy injectors, fuel rails and igniter just to get to 300HP with a stock block.
The DOHC motor has larger ports, the favorite for WAZOO motors, delivering about 50-75HP more than SOHC when running 20+ lbs of boost (requires closed deck block, race pistons, rods, etc). In all cases when building a mild or wild turbo motor with a DOHC motor you will have to buy aftermarket fuel rails and injectors, typically 50lb injectors unless you're going WAZOO for 550+HP, which may need even bigger injectors. DOHC motors are very popular because they can deliver more HP per pound than almost any motor in the business, not to mention they weigh 340lbs with turbo and intercooler (same as SOHC). Motor weight in a sandrail is critical IMHO, and the distribution of that weight even more critical, not to mention the center of gravity of the weight. DOHC motors are more fussy at melting cam covers if you don't use a GOOD heat sheild on the exhaust system. This is because the plastic cover is closer to the exhaust than the smaller SOHC plastic covers.
Both 2.5L motors, SOHC and DOHC, can only be boosted to 9-10lbs with a turbo when using a stock block. To run reliably beyond 10lbs of turbo boost you'll need to invest in a closed deck block, race pistons and race rods. With a 300HP setup, both motors can be tuned to run on 50-50 mix of 110/91 octane.
Both 2.5L motors, SOHC and DOHC can use the same block. Heads from a stock DOHC 2.0L turbo motor offer the best flow/dollar (extra large ports), and they bolt right onto a 2.5L block. The new 2.5L STI blocks are popular to upgrade a car with 2.0L motors when the time is up on the stock 2.0L block. STI blocks have a semi-closed deck that can be boosted to 20lbs, some do even more with higher risk.
The only other thing you need to know is...... buy your stuff from Outfront, they have everything you'll need. Don't be afraid to ask them motor questions, migration questions, compatibility questions, etc..... they'll help you.
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I dunno. If there IS a keyway lock you might have an answer I did not. I wish to find out more about that for sure.
The only way I would do this again is if I bought Subarus personal cam lock wrenchs. I might actually consider buying them if the same locks would fit the Tribeca (Subees new larger SUV) with the 3.3 in it. Hopefulley its benefiting from the horrors the 2.5 went thru and all it will need is a new timing belt and water pump at 125,000.
Outfront knows these motors as good as anyone and there is also a place that rebuilds them specifically for small airplanes.
It would be worth the 20 or so bucks to pick up the Subaru manual.
If you find out more about this "keyway" lock so you do not need a special tool I wanna know about it. I will try to research it some myself too.
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OK Nutz, not to diminish your experience, but I did the belt. Changed the broken cover, etc.
Now, I won't say it is not a challenge, but it beat the heck out of watching NASCAR today.
So - no keyway. Just used the index marks, the marks on the belt, a small nail, and next thing you know, it was all done. Yea, a little grumping but no swearing. Really, not much worse than any other belt i have ever done. Just more to line up.
Now, bear in mind, mine is sitting out in the open and I had no access issues and could see everything with no drop light, etc. all of it at a perfect height to sit on the floor and tend to it in the full upright position. Maybe that is what made it easier. I wont fear doing it again. It fired right up.
Need to buy a couple of bolts for the new wastegate, but I should be good to go for the next outing.
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You did the cam and crank seals and the oil pump O ring and the water pump too? If you did not I hope they do not start leaking. I dunno about what it takes to swap the broken plastic you had but just changing the belt is easy. Its the stuff behind the belt that is the pain in the ash. Hopefulley yours will not leak. Keep your fingers crossed!
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Rear belt cover requires cam pullies to be pulled. So, that meant seals as well. I went all the way to block. Did not do water pump, but everything else is new / cleaned inspected, etc.
Again bear in mind it was perfect access. About as close to being on an engine stand as you can get without a stand.
If it was on a street car with radiator all that other crap in the way: - hell no.
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Good deal then. In the car you yank the radiator and put a couple heavy sheets of cardboard behind the AC condensor so you don't run a wrench thru it.
The water pump is somewhat safe to skip cause it if starts to go it will usually let you know with noise or a leak. But if it does you get to go in deep again! Why in hell they need to bury that dang thing is a mystery. Some engineers just need to be shot.
The oil pump o-ring and crank seal are normal to fail about the smae time. In case you did not change them watchout. The crank seal usually leaks slow but makes a mess. The o ring behind the pump if it fails it will spray oil and run you out in a hurry if you do not notice something bad happening. Bill