DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on March 24, 2009, 10:02:45 PM
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Quote magnum from another thread and moved here:
"i have thought through all of this
and thats why i am going with arrowheads idea from mbn
i get my tranny somtime this week i thought it wasa five speed but its a 4 speed civic tranny
oh well its free lol i am chain driving in i will have two shifters one for the busa one for the honda tranz arrowhead used a mid engine vw shifter and it worked with some mods
this will be smell compact and bullit proof i am running outboard disk brakes cnc's
so i will be able to use a steering brake as well i will have handles for days should look like a cocpit of a 747 when im done just kiding"
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why are you quoting this? aren't you the one who thinks this setup is a joke?
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why are you quoting this? aren't you the one who thinks this setup is a joke?
Are you suggesting Fabr should censor this because he doesn't aggree with it?
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Hell guys having trouble reading I see.
This post isnt from Fabr, its from Magnum, who put it in another posting so Fabr transferred it here for Magnum. He has nothing to do with the honda set up, Magnum does.
continue....
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Personally, I see nothing wrong with the setup using the honda trans. There are better ways of doing it but each to their own.
The honda setup is possibly the cheapest (less costly, not cheap n nasty) way of achieving a rev set up.
Because thats what we are after isnt it? rev gear?
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why wasnt magnums post just moved here? thats what made me wonder what was going on.
bstjim-wtf are you talking about? i was curious as to what fabr was up to.. didnt realize it was a moved post.
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::) ::) ::) "for every action there is an equal and opposite criticism" LOL!!!!! Well EXCUUUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEEE I"M SORRRRRRY I didn't move it like you'd like it to have been moved VDC. ::) ;D ;D
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gg: ff: gg:
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why are you quoting this? aren't you the one who thinks this setup is a joke?
I have NEVER said it was a joke. NEVER. I SAID I don't believe that he had enough time on it for everyone to be going goo goo gaa gaa over it as if it was a proven thing. So far as I've seen there is not any real evidence of how it does regarding durability. All I've seen posted is basically-I did it and it works without any real info further. You know, like,"I ran it for 10 miles at 60 MPH across whoops and open desert non stop. I did that 10 times this weekend! WOW! It really held up nicely!" anecdotal type of things that SHOW what it is capable of. THere is also no evidence of the short chain surviving any hard use either.If there is and I've missed it since "that other place" invited me NOT back I haven't kept up with it. It's pretty simple really. For myself until I see proof of the results I have little reason to accept stuff as fact.
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I could not find the quote button for quoting from MBN directly to here ( ;D ;D ;D ;D :P ) So I cut an pasted.
In the link entitled: honda car trans help (on MBN)
Arrowhead states this line below:
Arrowhead runs his as hard as he needs to and no one has out run him for a year now with the same .250 key and the 4" bilge blower ducted to the chain at anything over 20% throttle. Same 36 pin 630 chain too
Now I am gonna say what many are thinking. Thats NOT an answer! As hard as he needs to... No one has outrun him for a year now...
To me thats a cop out. What if hes only running with mamby pansey runners?
He mentioned at one point he had not gotten any quads but a couple Coyotes (minibuggies Not the Road runners nemisis) If you cannot outrun quads in a good minibuggy somethings wrong.
Now I too have a Honda tranny that I wish to put in a mini. I had the idea years ago with a rabbit tranny out of an early 1980's rabbit but the CV flanges on those is type 1 only and there is NO clearance between the flange and case for anyting bigger. So when I moved one time I parted with it. Only to later hear that Jetta trannies on newer cars have the much larger flanges so I have been poking around for one of those.
But I still think the Honda tranny can take a beating. I will admit that I am a lil dissapointed in no video from someone with one in a buggy yet beating on it good. I also have a way around the short chain issue. So thats its not even an issue.
(side note.) For now I only have a sled motor sitting in the garage. So the honda tranny does me little for it. Looking for a worthy deal on a wrecked bike.) The sled motor will do better on a Jetta tranny for the way it faces I feel. Still a driven clutch can fit a common keyed shaft and still feed power into the honda trannies side with not to much trouble so it might happen yet. Being they are both sitting there for now.
Anyways. Back to the garage for me.
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I dont doubt arrowheads claims, It is hard to believe without proof tho... ;D As an expiermental situation, go for it, to take arrowheads word it will work, Dont be pissed off if it doesnt, Thats my standing on the issue... Not pointed at anyone directly etc... Proof is in the pudding not in the air...
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My point exactly nutz and my "pushing" for more info got me beat to death there (MBN) for having the gall to question Arrowhead about just what he meant with his claims. So far as I know nothing more has been offered since.
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I was going to run the the same type of honda trans in my car...it turned out to be too difficult to get a shifter back to it in my car. It will get used sooner or later, maybe in a buddies car that is on the books right now.
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Hell i am half tempted to out the drak tranny and do a honda trans myself... Need a lower ratio... Anyone know the final ratio in 1st gear? to the cvs that is?
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the only problem with runny the honda imo, is an open diff. why would you want a one wheel wonder? lame.
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the only problem with runny the honda imo, is an open diff. why would you want a one wheel wonder? lame.
Easy fix to that...
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Millerize it?
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the only problem with runny the honda imo, is an open diff. why would you want a one wheel wonder? lame.
I agree with Bug that this is a pretty easy fix. I also say if you only run sand it will not matter. I watch VW rails with open diffs all day and they ALWAYS bury both tires in the sand. Paddles or not. I have watched hundreds upon hundreds of them get stuck and its always both tires spinning and digging. Thats in a VW with little side torque from the motor. With a Honda front drive car motor tranny being torqued forward I believe it will be even less of a problem.
The first VW diff (out of an old Beetle IRS tranny) I ever saw used as a spool was in a mini buggy at Glamis. It had the holes welded shut with a greas zerk on one. He told me he pumped a few shots of grease in it each morning before he rode and never had a problem with it. The car screamed and never spun just one tire. A few years later I saw a kid who bought this car drag racing quads at Oldsmobile hill. After kicking tail up the hill he would cutting brake it around and the car would literally pivot like it had a bearing under its middle. Same diff. Only time one wheel only spun was with the cutting brake. This is for sand only. In dirt and mud I have seen the opposite.
Bug you can google different raitos. There are a lot of differances between years and cars (stadard wagon vs SI sport model)
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I have to agree with Nutz, we only used open diffs in the full sized buggys and I never really noticed a time when it didnt do ok. But that was with stiff chassis and very chunky tyres so one wheel spinning heaps wasnt too much of an option, it always seemed to throw 2 roosters (from the seat anyway).
And it did help it turn in the tight stuff where you werent sliding or spinning the wheels. IMO.
Of course the lil buggy is solid and will always be so.
Ive welded many diffs over the years with farm play and speedway, never ever had one fail (at least at the weld area).
Weld it up dude!
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Millerize it?
Linconize it actually... ;D
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I agree with Bug that this is a pretty easy fix. I also say if you only run sand it will not matter. I watch VW rails with open diffs all day and they ALWAYS bury both tires in the sand. Paddles or not. I have watched hundreds upon hundreds of them get stuck and its always both tires spinning and digging. Thats in a VW with little side torque from the motor. With a Honda front drive car motor tranny being torqued forward I believe it will be even less of a problem.
The first VW diff (out of an old Beetle IRS tranny) I ever saw used as a spool was in a mini buggy at Glamis. It had the holes welded shut with a greas zerk on one. He told me he pumped a few shots of grease in it each morning before he rode and never had a problem with it. The car screamed and never spun just one tire. A few years later I saw a kid who bought this car drag racing quads at Oldsmobile hill. After kicking tail up the hill he would cutting brake it around and the car would literally pivot like it had a bearing under its middle. Same diff. Only time one wheel only spun was with the cutting brake. This is for sand only. In dirt and mud I have seen the opposite.
Bug you can google different raitos. There are a lot of differances between years and cars (stadard wagon vs SI sport model)
7:1 final available?
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I wont be jury rigging no shafts tho, Ill have doug or someone make me a new shaft all together with the 1" key i run, next question is width, My flanges are flat no cup, if the flange was 1" from the trans on each side what would the overall width be, anyone know?
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B-series Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse Final Drive
S1/J1 JDM B16A X-Si 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.107 0.848 3.000 4.400
Y1; Y1 w/LSD JDM B16A SiR I 3.166 2.052 1.416 1.103 0.870 3.000 4.266
S4C/Y21 USDM B16A2, B16A3; JDM SiR2, JDM SiR2 w/LSD 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.107 0.848 3.000 4.400
Y80/S80 JDM B16B w/LSD; JDM B18C 96-spec R w/LSD 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.107 0.848 3.000 4.400
YS1 USDM B17A1; JDM B16A X-Si w/LSD 3.307 2.105 1.458 1.107 0.848 3.000 4.400
S1/YS1/A1 USDM B18A 3.166 1.857 1.259 0.935 0.742 3.000 4.400
Y80/S80 B18B 3.230 1.900 1.269 0.966 0.714 3.000 4.266
?? B18B (auto) 2.722 1.468 0.975 0.638 ---- 1.954 4.357
S80/Y80; S80 w/LSD, Y80 w/LSD JDM B18C SiR-G 3.230 1.900 1.360 1.034 0.787 3.000 4.400
S80 w/LSD JDM B18C Spec-R 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.034 0.787 3.000 4.785
Y80 USDM B18C1 3.230 1.900 1.360 1.034 0.787 3.000 4.400
S80 w/LSD USDM B18C5 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.107 0.848 3.000 4.400
S80 w/LSD EDM B18C Spec-R 3.230 2.105 1.458 1.034 0.787 3.000 4.785
4th Gen D-series Cable Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse Final Drive
L3 88-91 HF 3.250 1.650 1.033 0.823 0.694 2.954 (3.250 Cali) 3.880
L3 88-91 DX 3.250 1.894 1.259 0.937 0.771 3.153 3.880
L3 88-91 Si 3.250 1.894 1.259 0.937 0.771 3.153 4.25
L3 JDM Integra ZXi 3.250 1.894 1.346 1.033 0.771 3.153 4.437
L3 JDM DOHC ZC 3.250 1.944 1.250 0.909 0.878 3.153 3.880
L3 USDM D16A1 Integra
NOTE:
Will not fit 88-91 D-blocks 3.181 1.944 1.347 1.033 0.823 3.153 4.216
5th Gen D-series Hydraulic Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse Final Drive
P20/A000 92-95 Civic CX/VX D15B8/D15Z1 3.250 1.761 1.066 0.853 0.702 3.153 3.250
P20/A000 92-95 Civic DX/LX D15B7 3.250 1.762 1.172 0.909 0.702 3.153 coupe/sedan: 4.058
Hatch: 3.888
P20/B000 92-95 Civic EX D16Z6 3.250 1.900 1.250 0.909 0.702 3.153 4.250
P20/B000 92-95 Civic Si / 93-95 del Sol Si D16Z6 3.250 1.900 1.250 0.909 0.750 3.153 4.250
?? 92-95 JDM Civic VTi EG4D15B 3.250 1.900 1.250 0.909 0.750 3.153 4.250
6th Gen D-series Hydraulic Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse Final Drive
?? 96-00 D16Y5 3.250 1.782 1.172 0.909 0.702 3.153 3.722
?? 96-00 D16Y7 Civic DX/LX/CX 3.250 1.762 1.172 0.909 0.702 3.153 coupe/sedan: 4.058
Hatch: 3.722
?? 96-00 Civic EX D16Y8 3.250 1.909 1.250 0.909 0.702 3.153 4.250
Prelude and Accord Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Reverse Final Drive
P2A5 94-97 Accord DX/LX 3.307 1.809 1.185 0.903 0.685 3.000 4.062
P2U5 94-97 Accord EX 3.307 1.809 1.185 0.933 0.685 3.000 4.062
P2A4 94-97 Accord Lx/EX Wagon 3.307 1.809 1.185 0.903 0.685 3.000 4.062
T2W4 98-01 Accord Euro-R 3.285 2.090 1.481 0.071 0.812 ?? 4.266
U2Q7 98-01 Accord Type-R 3.307 2.090 1.481 1.071 0.870 ?? 4.266
?? 88-91 Prelude 3.166 1.857 1.222 0.906 0.742 ?? 4.062
?? 88-91 Prelude Si 3.166 1.857 1.259 0.935 0.794 ?? 4.062
M2L5 92-96 Prelude S (F22A1) 3.310 1.810 1.232 0.900 0.710 ?? 4.062
M2S4 92-96 Prelude Si (H23A1) 3.307 1.857 1.320 1.034 0.812 ?? 4.266
M2J5 92-96 Prelude Si (JDM F22B) 3.307 1.810 1.269 0.966 0.787 ?? 4.266
M2F4 92-96 Prelude VTEC 3.307 1.950 1.360 1.071 0.870 ?? 4.266
M2A4 92-96 Prelude VTEC (JDM H22A w/o LSD) 3.307 1.950 1.160 1.034 0.787 ?? 4.266
M2B4 92-96 Prelude VTEC (JDM H22A w/ LSD) 3.307 1.950 1.360 1.034 0.787 ?? 4.266
M2Y4 97-01 Prelude BASE 3.285 1.956 1.344 1.034 0.812 ?? 4.266
M2U4 97-01 Prelude SH 3.285 1.956 1.344 1.071 0.870 ?? 4.062
S2000 Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear 6th Gear Reverse Final Drive
?? 99-03 S2000 F20C 3.12 2.05 1.480 1.160 0.970 0.810 ?? 4.100
RSX/EP3 Civic/CRV K-series Tranny Specs
Transmission Name Engine Counter Part 1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear 6th Gear Reverse Final Drive
?? RSX Base, EP3 Civic Si K20A3 2.684 1.500 0.984 0.733 0.571 ---- ?? 4.389
?? RSX Type S K20A2 3.270 2.130 1.520 1.150 0.920 0.720 ?? 4.389
?? 04+ CRV K24 3.533 1.880 1.212 0.921 0.738 ---- ?? 4.765
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Robbed that from elsewere, have to look close the format didn't come thru the same for colums etc...
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We call it a 'lincoln-locker' in the crawling world here in Az.
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In the drag racing world we call it an explosion waiting to happen.
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the trany i am starting out with will be a 1991 honda civic hatch back four speed
i may deside to use something diffrent later
i know some of what i will call mid year (not new not old) i am not shure on the exact years and model
they are cable shift meaning its very easy to hook up a shifter with out all kinds of odd ball linkage
that i will have to use with the currant tranny i am getting for free lol i believe its very similar to
arrow heads tranny
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I'm sorry but what engine are you using? I probably missed you saying . Please keep us informed as to how it works out for you , what type of driver you consider yourself and what type of use do intend it for.
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as far as i am concerned i have asked alot of questions localy with the honda street racers i know that build
9 second cars with stock honda trannies
they flog on there cars street and stripp clutch drops burn outs any thing we could do in a buggy
thing is these are cars that wiegh over 2000 pounds they rev these cars up to 9000 rpm serious power and torque and still trough a stock tranny with little or no problems thats the guys i talk to and work with here in baton rouge
so my conclusion done right is a car that wieghs a 1000 pounds this will be a reliable set up for way less money i plan on using a jack shaft that the honda shaft slips into i am making the honda trany removable
without alot of work
to me on this first set up getting the shifter right will be the most difficult thing
i think shifting the honda tranz first with the busa in first gear then start shifting the busa if needed
but playing with diffrent combinations will be fun
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i am a very agressive driver evan in my 05 chevy silverado i drive the shit out of that truck
lol all types of terrain we evan have some small dunes here in louisiana they are called la dunes i have never been i will be going soon lol hayabusa is what i am using for power i will start out stock
but hope to ad a turbo and what ever it takes to get it to 500 hp
at least thats what they say you can get out of a busa
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If it fails it isnt gonna be burning out, Its gonna be when the tires leave the ground and catch back traction...
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With a jackshaft, unless you are gearing 1:1 your asking for problems, with the gear ratio in the trans imo it is stupid not to run direct to the input shaft...
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i have thought about a housing with gears instead of a chain its doable
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i have thought about a housing with gears instead of a chain its doable
It is doable, but a waiste of time... And absorbs the savings of using the honda trans to begin with...
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I agree, if you wanted to throw cash at thi sthing you wouldnt use the honda trans to start with. Go the 091 like fabr.. I wonder how much he would have spent had this all been retail work and not done largely in-house? Not all of us have his facilities.
IMO, of course....
Way way more than any jeffco or rpm box that is proven reliable, Hell he paid as much for the 091, as 2 rpm boxes can be had at dealer cost... Tho his goals are a bit different...
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If you ask real nice and give me a smooch, I will run out to the garage and check the width. I have a d series 88-91 4 speed sitting on the floor. ;D
(sorry, had to edit. That just sounds gay without the smiley.)
Please? measure the offset to the seal on the input shaft to will ya, hell just cad it all up for us if you want...
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Boost, next time you kiss me and try and slip the tongue again, I'm gonna snot ya 8)
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offset to the seal? chill for a min and I will post a pic and you can draw in what dimensions you want.
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offset to the seal? chill for a min and I will post a pic and you can draw in what dimensions you want.
How far the input shaft seal is offset from the center of the cv flanges...
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here are the pics. outside of seal to outside of seal is approx 7". input shaft is roughly 2" long from seal to tip and flush with output shaft seal. so to answer your question, I think the input seal is about 1"-1.5" to the left of the center of cv flanges.
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first of all i am working with size turning the busa engine sidways is not a solution i want to consider
yea it makes it easer to feed a tranny with power but all of that extera legth and wieght is not somthing i want to comprimaze
if i was going to do that i would build a full size car and use an ls1 out of a camaro
what i proposed is compact and will work for the length of the drive train you are using i could make the chain longer as for making a housing with gears in it i would do that my self and i would use transfer gears out of a 4x4transfer case then make my own case so the cost would be minimal
as far as testing the honda tranny it self i will use a chain to start with if the tranny holds up i will tackle the issue of chain wear
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hey boost how much does that wiegh i will use my plasma cutter and remove the bell housing so the tranny will be evan more compact
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I don't know 45-50 lb ish. I can pick it up one handed. Feels about the same as my five gallon bucket of mud and I think it is 40#. Fabber should know. What does a bucket of drywall mud weigh? I don't have a scale in the house, but if I feel motivated later I may run out to the go-kart trailer and get one.
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Perfect, what diameter driven would fit on there, think it could be arranged with the input shaft directly above the out put shaft?
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I think any size secondary you could find would fit. If it were me and I was going to make a shaft anyway. I would crack the case open and see if I could fit some bearings in somewhere and then replace the whole input shaft with one a secondary would fit on.
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The reason for using ANY 4-5 speed tranny is to have final drive ratio capability. Yes bug a jeff or RPM will do the job for most users with no issues. EXCEPT if you go to wide open spaces like open dunes or desert and wish you had a bit taller gear for top end OR you head into the trails and find you're geared too high for what you've need for. See???????
Bug, I know you've never been to LS so I understand your not understanding the need,and since it's so small compared to major dune areas you likely think it's all the same there.Not so. In the 3 sq miles it is it has wide open dunes and tight twisty trails.Literally 100 mph appropriate areas and places where 10 would be fast.
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I took the pics as it would sit in the car. I wouldn't rotate it for the same reasons Nutz said.
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since it's so small compared to major dune areas you likely think it's all the same there.Not so. In the 3 sq miles it is it has wide open dunes and tight twisty trails.Literally 100 mph appropriate areas and places where 10 would be fast.
Huh? Shatter my dreams why dont you?
I had it in my head that Glamis was THE PLACE and as such should cover massive areas of land.... I mean when we talk large areas ou there we mean LARGE areas....
I am shattered.... (and obviosuly deluded...)
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Huh? Shatter my dreams why dont you?
I had it in my head that Glamis was THE PLACE and as such should cover massive areas of land.... I mean when we talk large areas ou there we mean LARGE areas....
I am shattered.... (and obviosuly deluded...)
lol lil confuzion here. As far as I know Bugs only been to Silver Lake in Michigan. Its nice and funbut parking lots at Glamis are bigger than the whole riding area at Silver Lake. Cannot say about Little Sahara. Hope to see it one day.
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what the hell does +1 hidden mean.
Boostinjdm, Hero_saku39, Artie on edge, Yummi (+ 1 Hidden) and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.
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I had it in my head that Glamis was THE PLACE and as such should cover massive areas of land.... I mean when we talk large areas ou there we mean LARGE areas....
Maybe you should send your buggy to check it out.....bring daughter. He He. Ok I'll stop now before it gets creepy. ;D
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Maybe you should send your buggy to check it out.....bring daughter. He He. Ok I'll stop now before it gets creepy. ;D
Gets? It isnt already?
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what the hell does +1 hidden mean.
Boostinjdm, Hero_saku39, Artie on edge, Yummi (+ 1 Hidden) and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.
The "+1 hidden" is me. I clicked in one day in my profile. It makes it look like I am offline when I am on. I just aint clicked it back yet. As you can guess I am online to type this
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Maybe you should send your buggy to check it out.....bring daughter. He He. Ok I'll stop now before it gets creepy. ;D
I guess Im like most dads, my lil 22yr old will ALWAYS be my lil girl and thats they way I like it.. any attention from others in THAT respect is unattractive (get yer filthy fookin hands off my daughter! I dont CARE if youve been married for 2 years now!)...
sad case huh?
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shit 22 I'm only 25. If it makes you feel any better not all guys are bad news. I been loyal to my GF for 8.5 years now. I gave up my best Highschool and College partying years for her. And she says I never make sacrifices. I'm also giving up everything I have worked for to move so we can be close all the time.
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Wow! Whats wrong with me? I've got 3 kids all out of wedlock and with different moms.
Did finally tie the knot at 42 though. Come on have some fun.
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Fabber i see your need, if you read clearly I said different goals...
Why wouldnt the gear lube climb the gears like in any other machine?
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child support out the ass?
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Sometimes it's not just the presence of oil but also the need of volume for cooling. Personally I have little doubt the bearing would get oiled but it MIGHT not adequately cool due to lack of volume. Possibility anyway.