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Author Topic: Waterjetting comparision to laser  (Read 4607 times)

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Offline fabr

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Waterjetting comparision to laser
« on: January 15, 2009, 06:07:52 PM »
OK guys I've sent out for laser quotes on some keyed parts for front uprights.I have not done any keyed stuff before so I am in a learning mode. Everything I have read in the forums say laser is THE way to go.Soooooooooo,I get a pm from a member here that tells me that he would recommend doing waterjetting instead. To tell you the truth I have been convinced enough I'm going to do these in WJ. He told me how to do some things and IMO straightened me out on a couple of misconceptions I had.All in all another day was productive with another thing learned.Always a good thing.
  Now who wants to chime in and tell me the pros and cons of doing these in WJ instead of laser? 
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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 06:19:36 PM »
Doing this.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 06:21:40 PM »
Zero heat.... And im guessing here, but you can cut a curf (sp) for welding it easier?
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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 06:26:43 PM »
That was my misconception as well.I thought the machine followed the dxf and the resulting kerf would be split evenly on both sides.NOPE.The operator tells the program which side to compensate on so the target dimension is hit.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Engineer

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2009, 06:35:24 PM »
Quote from: Masterfabr on January 15, 2009, 06:26:43 PM
That was my misconception as well.I thought the machine followed the dxf and the resulting kerf would be split evenly on both sides.NOPE.The operator tells the program which side to compensate on so the target dimension is hit.

Your refering to Waterjet cutting.......  The local waterjet guy here says he can cut 7" thick, and compensate for the kerf.  Make sure to tell them you are willing to pay for the good finish.  With waterjet, you can get anywhere from the torch look, to smooth as a baby's butt depending how slow they go.  I have some 2" thick waterjet that is very smooth.  For the thickness of those parts, I think its a toss up.  You will be pleased either way.

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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 06:39:52 PM »
When you submit dxf's to your guy do you send them in nominal size and have him allow clearance for easy assembly of the keyed parts or do you provide them with clearance already added?
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 06:41:41 PM »
I am most certain he only has one price, and thats for Perfect.... ;D Im pretty confident you couldn't pay this guy to give it the torch look.... ;D
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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 06:43:15 PM »
Quote from: Engineer on January 15, 2009, 06:35:24 PM
Your refering to Waterjet cutting.......  The local waterjet guy here says he can cut 7" thick, and compensate for the kerf.  Make sure to tell them you are willing to pay for the good finish.  With waterjet, you can get anywhere from the torch look, to smooth as a baby's butt depending how slow they go.  I have some 2" thick waterjet that is very smooth.  For the thickness of those parts, I think its a toss up.  You will be pleased either way.


It's different for laser?
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 06:47:20 PM »
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Engineer

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 07:10:26 PM »
Are you getting the parts from Australia?  LOL Sorry.


My laser cutter cuts the parts to the exact dimensions I send in.  With the waterjet, it has extra axis so they can point the head away from the part to keep the edge square.  They don't have to do that with laser.  I thought that was what you meant by kerf.  But you just meant the width of the cut.
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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 07:34:56 PM »
Yes I did but what accuracy tolerance are you getting? +- what from design?
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Yoshi

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 08:50:20 PM »
Got an e-mail from the same guy, he's sending me some samples to take a look at, his identity is to remain secret at his request ::)

I've had water, laser, torch, and plasma cut parts.  Water is very clean, and it doesn't harden the edges like all the other methods.  I have all my tabs plasma for price reasons, my upper a-arm plates are water jet since I want my logo to be crisp and readable....

looks like were members of a new secret society club..... :g
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 09:19:16 PM by Yoshi »
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Rick S.

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 08:56:55 PM »
On the thick stuff the waterjet has to cut real slow to get the smooth finish.  The thinner materials always come out nice. I have access to both and really prefer the WJ.
WJ is a little more expensive to operate. (it's slower than laser)
Sometimes I do use the laser, if I want the hard edge that it leaves. The waterjet can also do stainless and aluminum. A lot of shops stay away from these materials with the laser.
The shinny surfaces screw with the laser lens so I'm told. We never cut alum. or stainless with laser. Our lasers will only cut to 3/8 thickness. anything over 3/8 we plasma cut.
Waterjet will do 7"   
I always cut the important holes (suspension mounts) slightly undersize and chase them with a reamer or drill. Regardless of laser or WJ parts. The hard skin left from the laser is hard on tooling. So here the waterjet is better IMO. I laser all tapped holes 1/32 under the tap drill dia. (You need to drill out the hard material before tapping the hole.) For WJ I go 1/64 under the tap drill.  Tabs and notches need to have the proper clearances added before you send a dxf. to laser or waterjet. The waterjet or laser guy has no idea how your stuff tabs together.
If you don't add the clearances it will not fit together. (without grinding)
I add .01 to all pocket widths. HRPO stock can vary in thickness if your pockets are .188 and the stock comes in .190 you are going to have fun fitting everything together. Same goes for the length of the notches vs. the tabs. (add clearance) Here I wold go .02 over. or your parts will not seat all the way down.
Waterjet kerf can be .03 so it's leaving a .015R in the corners. Laser kerf can be even more.  The laser and waterjet are set to compensate for the kerf. The dxf shape is what you get, so don't worry about loosing material because of the kerf.  the WJ nozzle wears as you use it (the kerf starts to get wider.) Most places will compensate for this also. They estimate the wear based on the machines use and compensate accordingly.     
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 09:27:24 PM by Rick S. »
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Offline fabr

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 09:05:21 PM »
Quote from: Rick S. on January 15, 2009, 08:56:55 PM
On the thick stuff the waterjet has to cut real slow to get the smooth finish.  The thinner materials always come out nice. I have access to both and really prefer the WJ.
WJ is a little more expensive to operate. (it's slower than laser)
Sometimes I do use the laser, if I want the hard edge that it leaves. The waterjet can also do stainless and aluminum. A lot of shops stay away from these materials with the laser.
The shinny surfaces screw with the laser lens so I'm told. We never cut alum. or stainless with laser. Our lasers will only cut to 3/8 thickness. anything over 3/8 we plasma cut.
Waterjet will do 7"   
I always cut the important holes (suspension mounts) slightly undersize and chase them with a reamer or drill. Regardless of laser or WJ parts. The hard skin left from the laser is hard on tooling. So here the waterjet is better IMO. I laser all tapped holes 1/32 under the tap drill dia. (You need to drill out the hard material before tapping the hole.) For WJ I go 1/64 under the tap drill.  Tabs and notches need to have the proper clearances added before you send a dxf. to laser or waterjet. The waterjet or laser guy has no idea how your stuff tabs together.
If you don't add the clearances it will not fit together. (without grinding)
I add .01 to all notch widths. HRPO stock can vary in thickness if your notches are .188 and the stock comes in .190 you are going to have fun fitting everything together. Same goes for the length of the notches vs. the tabs. add clearance here I wold go .02
waterjet kerf can be .03 so it's leaving a .015R in the corners. Laser kerf can be even more.  The laser and waterjet are set to compensate for the kerf. The dxf shape is what you get, so don't worry about loosing material because of the kerf.  the WJ nozzle wears as you use it (the kerf starts to get wider.) Most places will compensate for this also. they estimate the wear based on the machines use and compensate accordingly.     
I was having a real hard time understanding that but If you think of a POCKET being cut for a tab it becomes obvious.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Rick S.

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Re: Waterjetting comparision to laser
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 09:25:20 PM »
Yes, I should have said pocket widths. Now I see why you were not quite getting it.
My bad.
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