DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: Voodoochikin04 on January 16, 2009, 03:29:52 AM
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i decided i hate the single a-arm setup on my buggy. so i wanna build some doubles. only problem is i have no idea how to build the spindles or uprights. i plan on using the heims i got from bug. im doing this as cheaply as possible, so anything i can make im gonna have to. so guys, i need all the help i can get. dont really know any of the terms like kpi or any of that stuff. feel like a tard so teach me.. lol.
anything wrong with these mis spacers? i bought my rear delrin bushing sets from him.
Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290209549616&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=290206558316&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu%3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4)
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I got the 250R stuff on the front of Specinator's buggy I was gonna put in the classifieds, Control arms ,rack, extenders, shocks, hubs, spindles, calipers...It would be a weld up your tabs, and set the rack and go deal...
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THere ya go!
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Those mis-aligns look like they would work. Unfortunately you are gonna need a bunch more heims or bushings to build it all.
I think I would seriousely look at what spec is suggesting. That way all the geometry is worked out, all you have to do is replicate the frame mount locations on your buggy.
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Those mis-aligns look like they would work. Unfortunately you are gonna need a bunch more heims or bushings to build it all.
I think I would seriousely look at what spec is suggesting. That way all the geometry is worked out, all you have to do is replicate the frame mount locations on your buggy.
dITTO.
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I use to sell his stuff, they are nice, no were near as nice as Dougs stuff, and it was hard to buy them at dealer cost to have him list them the next day .40 each cheaper.... I'll buy Dougs Myself, Well actually i have enuff faith in Dougs product that i resell it as well.... Its not a big secret if you buy heims, high mis spacers, and tube adapters from me, the machined parts come from Doug Heim...
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well i have enough heims.. or can just buy the bushings i need from doug.. the whole point of making the arms myself is so i dont have to buy a complete setup. i asked for help and am trying to learn what needs to go into a simple double arm setup.. please help.. if not.. ill build them, then when i get told they are all wrong, then ill take that help...
spec: the whole point of wanting to build it myself is because im sure you want more than 200$ for your whole setup.. and i know i can build it all myself.. (less rack) for under that.
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What style arm are you after making?
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Ya, I was thinking 500 for everything 3 Tires, 2 wheels, spindles,hubs ,dual piston calipers, brake lines, tie rods, rack, extenders, ball joints, upper and lower arms, 4 shocks, and 24 cnc'ed tabs to mount it all...
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well i have enough heims.. or can just buy the bushings i need from doug.. the whole point of making the arms myself is so i dont have to buy a complete setup. i asked for help and am trying to learn what needs to go into a simple double arm setup.. please help.. if not.. ill build them, then when i get told they are all wrong, then ill take that help...
spec: the whole point of wanting to build it myself is because im sure you want more than 200$ for your whole setup.. and i know i can build it all myself.. (less rack) for under that.
I will help ya. I will review the pictures in your build log tonight, to see what questions I can generate. I thought you already have tires on the front, so you will be wanting to stay with them. What about shocks? What is the plan? Right off the top I need to know the desired track width, and the current frame width, then the diameter of the tires as well as the offset.
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i just want it to be really simple.. i bought a set of quad arms tonight. and a set of shocks that are exactly the same as my rears. i also bought a set of smaller arms hoping to use the bushings from them. i would like to cut the junk ball joints off the ends and put heims on. no sure how you replace these ball joints anyways due to them being welded on...
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You could jig those arms and build a new set using the heims that way you retain the same goemetry but have nice new arms that are not all frankensteined together. And you can be shure you are putting quality material into the arms. And then you could sell the arms and get some $$$$ back ;)
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I can't see your spindles in any of the pictures. I think you have a decent base to start from for the double A-arms. Post some pictures of the new parts you got. And take a front wheel off and take a picture of the spindle hub. You might be able to plate your current spindle on either side, and drill a hole pattern for the heims top and bottom. You will need to know the width of the hiem with misalignments before you do it though. Looks like the current frame mounts would work for the bottom A-arm mounts. especially if you are cutting the arm apart to replace the ball joint with a tube for the heim to go in.
I think you may be able to use your existing arms for the lowers. Just cut the ends off, and weld a tube on that the heim treads in, or that you can bet a nut on either side. They will need to be angled down more, but your new shocks may be longer. so the existing mounts may work, or you could adjust the top mount.
I would suggest making the arms parallel. meaning the mounts on the frame are the same distance apart vertically as the holes for the heims on the spindle. Seems like you could mount the top arm on the tube you already have in place above your main frame.
I attached a drawing to explain KPI (King Pin Inclination). The red line represents the kpi. You want the line to point at the middle of your tire at the ground. That way when you hit a bump, the force goes into the spindle, instead of trying to rip the stearing wheel out of you hands. By having the upper heim inboard, it will also give you camber gain, meaning the top of the tire will lean in as the suspension is compressed. So it kills two birds with one stone.
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The spacers on Ebay are a great price but I do not think they will allow for a good large missalignment angle.
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thanks engi.....
my plan is to cut the front of the frame off, as it is pretty wide. i want longer arms also. so i was planning to pick my rack i want to use and build the new frame structure according to that. while making longer arms.. but we will see. i only paid 30$ for all 4 arms. and 20$ for the two shocks.
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doug-yea i noticed yours give more mis. but i need to budget myself. or im just gonna have to stick with the singles. :(
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No worries at all bud, Just wanted you to know.
I hope to buy the CNC production lathe from my work in the next couple of years as that will be the next machine replaced in the shop. It is all G-code and takes along time to set up (not everyone knows how to program or tool it) but awesome for long run jobs which we dont see much of at work. If I get that thing Ill be able to beat the prices off ebay and anyone who sells weld thread inserts and HM Spacers. Ill be making alot of bulk then. Were talking like a thousand or better at a crack.
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What's wrong with G-code?
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G whiz Wally!
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What's wrong with G-code?
Nothing if you know the language. What I really meant is Its really just a stupid control on the machine. It will be most likley replaced with a machine that has live tooling and a control that better suits the type of work we cater to.
Another nice couple of features this older machine has is a hydraulic chuck, 8 station tool turret, chip conveyor and a programable tailstock.
No bar feeder but Ill make a puller that uses fingers in a tool position for the bungs and HMS.
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60$ for 4 sets of your hm spacers?
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60$ for 4 sets of your hm spacers?
Plus its nice to be a VIP... ;D
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$15 per pair = $60 for 4 Pair.
VIPs get 10% off saving another $6
Total $54
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well problem solved i think.. found a set of arms spindles rotors and calipers from a 1988 honda trx250x. 100$.... can get the aluminum wheels for them for another 40$. to bad i wasted 30$ on those other arms, cant take em back. :(
one question: the top ball joint is screwed in, so i can replace it. the bottom is welded on and i have noticed this on alot of arms. there is no snap ring on the back... so how the hell do i replace it? is there a snap ring under the boot?
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You don't.You replace the arm.
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Unfotunately Fabr is right,
What you will probably end up doing is what I did, build your own arms and modify the shit out of the quad spindles, I whacked off the steering stem,flipped them and bored the ball joint holes to accept automoive ball joints...on the ones I mentioned before...I had a set of what you got...I'm sorry to say take them back...You have a can of worms your not going to like...Unless you use their arms and the same geometry as the quad did, even then your in for a funky set up on the steering geometry...Well maybe not funky but a challenge to set up, they have a relatively short steering stem stock, and it has placement issues when trying to get more travel than the stock 3 1/2'' the machine originally had...I gotta go play with the mini loader so I can stay warm...more later...BTW i'll ship tommarow with the bloody
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well the ball joints are in good shape, was just curious...
oh come on!!!! you cant tell me these are gonna be worse than the single arm setup i have now!!!!
no one told boltz he is gonna have to take his arms back.......
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VDC
I didn't know that's what he was using...
I'll get some pix of whats left of the 250-300x spindles
Heres a pic of trying them in the stock confoguration
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Spec, aren't those spindles upside down? I can see Yoshi adding a neon green line showing your KPI...that looks like heavy steering scrub.
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Tenaja,
I didn't use them :o
They were right side up, upside down, swapped left to right, and used in the stock position, in that series of pix, That's what I was trying to say about the 250 -300 ex spindles...By the time I got done trying to get the propper geometry...Here's what I had left
But I think VOODOO is keeping the stock arms,and geometry...This was just an example of what happens when trying to get extra travel, and good steering geometry out of them
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im gonna put them on my buggy the same way they were on the quad.. im not gonna have much travel in the rear so i dont need much in the front.. no more than a quad since thats the terrain ill be on.(same as where i drive the 4-wheelers) its just stupid how people tell me to find a quad front end, i do, then im told by others it wont work... lol.. no offense intended anywhere..
is anyone using an 8.5 inch rack and pinion? or is that kinda small?
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I'd stay with the frog or whatever you call it steer if using the quad arms and spindles . Remember that the stuff was designed for that.
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You understand the short travel and for your purpose it'll be fine.It's when you want to use those and get LONG travel that things get ugly quick.
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Fabber, a frog will be tuff being the frame is so wide, quad a arm bushing are usually just a few inches apart... You could do it but im thinking you will need two pivots, Renegaded could tell ya how...
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Yeah you're right.I forgot his frame is wider. :-[ :-[
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im gonna put them on my buggy the same way they were on the quad.. im not gonna have much travel in the rear so i dont need much in the front.. no more than a quad since thats the terrain ill be on.(same as where i drive the 4-wheelers) its just stupid how people tell me to find a quad front end, i do, then im told by others it wont work... lol.. no offense intended anywhere..
is anyone using an 8.5 inch rack and pinion? or is that kinda small?
I THINK I have one of them still on the shelf.If so I'll sell it to you cheap.
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so i got my new front end tacked on. it has a 10 degree rake or whatever you call it. i made tabs and tacked the arms on too. my question is. are you supposed to have the hub at 90 degrees? the way it sits, when i put an angle finder on the hub surface it is at 92 when the suspension is hanging down at max. and it comes to 88 when the suspension is compressed all the way. am i doing this right?
contemplating if i should scrap the arms, make my own and just use the spindle, like carl did on his buggy.
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so i got my new front end tacked on. it has a 10 degree rake or whatever you call it. i made tabs and tacked the arms on too. my question is. are you supposed to have the hub at 90 degrees? the way it sits, when i put an angle finder on the hub surface it is at 92 when the suspension is hanging down at max. and it comes to 88 when the suspension is compressed all the way. am i doing this right?
Rake is when the front of the A-arm is higher than the rear, causing the spindle to move rearward as it moves upward. This is looking from the side of the buggy.
I believe you are talking about camber with the angle finder. This is when the top of the tire moves in or out as the suspension goes up and down. Now we are looking from the front of the buggy. It should be close to 90degrees at ride heigth. The top of the tire should move in toward the center of the buggy as you move closer to full compression.
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yea i built my new front frame with 10 degrees of rake...just wasnt sure if i was using the term correctly.. and i know what camber is. but just wasnt sure how to word everything properly.. thanks
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I can take some close up pics of front end if you like. I have about 8 degrees of rake, about 90 camber at ride height about 85 at bump. center of my frame between a-arm is 8". Have a 10" wide rack which puts the rack pivets in alignment with the a-arm pivets. Getting 14" of wheel travel and its limited by the ball joint on the AVT hub units.
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yea but i was hoping to keep tha atv arms and whatnot.. i didnt wanna have to make my own arms. but im really not liking how its looking. my whole intent was to just bolt these up and go.. im tired of messing around with the same stuff..lol.
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I know what you mean, pulled the motor back out of mine last Thur, back in 1hr later, back out to weld new mounts, then back in. No help no lift, cant figure out why my back hurt all weekend. Probable the 10-15 time I've taken in/out motor.
Mount the arm, work out the steering, drive the dang thing, then fix some of the crap thats not working out right, then drive some more.
Hoping to drive some more Sat, NW GA 65 degrees and sunny. 8) Today about 30 degrees windy w rain/snow. WTF
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I know what you mean, pulled the motor back out of mine last Thur, back in 1hr later, back out to weld new mounts, then back in. No help no lift, cant figure out why my back hurt all weekend. Probable the 10-15 time I've taken in/out motor.
Mount the arm, work out the steering, drive the dang thing, then fix some of the crap thats not working out right, then drive some more.
Hoping to drive some more Sat, NW GA 65 degrees and sunny. 8) Today about 30 degrees windy w rain/snow. WTF
Better git r done so we can goto Durhamtown... ;D
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Can borrow inlaws toyhauler and make a long weekend. Wife and 9 yr girl too since water elect and tv.
Lets get these machines running so we can break them and work on them some more.
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Can borrow inlaws toyhauler and make a long weekend. Wife and 9 yr girl too since water elect and tv.
Lets get these machines running so we can break them and work on them some more.
Ill be ready April first, got to get it jetted and break in the engine first, Need a big ass open field to do that really... You got one handy? ;D
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Yea come on,just watch out for 2000 lb cows. Neighbor saw you kill it you buy it, retail. :o
Here's some picks for Voodo, I was drinking and taking pic so I hope He can make sense of.
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i spent like 4 hours.. making a new 10 degree rake front end.. btw, that is alot!!!! looks goofy. i mounted the arms with some nice radiused tabs a made at work. tacked it all together. lowered the buggy... instantly got furious.. at full droop the frame of buggy was only about 1 inch off ground.. wtf!!!!!! so at ride height it would be riding on the ground. not sure how i screwed it up so bad!!! partially blame it on the rake of the front end. gonna change it to 5..
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i spent like 4 hours.. making a new 10 degree rake front end.. btw, that is alot!!!! looks goofy. i mounted the arms with some nice radiused tabs a made at work. tacked it all together. lowered the buggy... instantly got furious.. at full droop the frame of buggy was only about 1 inch off ground.. wtf!!!!!! so at ride height it would be riding on the ground. not sure how i screwed it up so bad!!! partially blame it on the rake of the front end. gonna change it to 5..
OUCH!! We need a picture of that........ Just for reference!
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With the short a arms, change it to zero, all rake is gonna do is limit your travel...
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im about ready to throw those arms away... make my own.. and use those spindles so i can have front breaks.. i bout 4 pairs of high mis spacers from phelps.. and all i would need is some quality heims and bungs that would pit my 7/8"id tube.. i need someone to tell me what to do!!!! i obviously cant make good decisons. yea that rake killed my ground clearance. i dont need much travel because there is not a whole lot of bumps jumps or dips around here. thats why the quad arms were ideal. but these are weird, the top arm is shorter and needs to be mounted almost 2 inches out farther than the bottom arm. my new from section i made was originally square tube, then i hacked that off and made a round tube section last night. ugh im just dissapointed and feel lost.. i just wanna stick a freakin front end on there and get on with the rest of my build!!!!!!!!! please help.. and this plead of help doesnt include me spending hundreds of dollars. :)
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VDC,
Some pix would help, rake doesn't limit your travel...It only alows the wheel/tire to travel at an angle... rearward...Before you go and whack it up get us some pix...I already know what the problem is...I did it before
Take a step back and a deep breath...
Cuz this Is going to sound like I told you so...250 and 300X spindle got a really shitty geometry setup...I posted what you would have left if trying to get the propper geometry out of them...a snout, hub, and a bunch of steel shavings...
With that said...
How do you have it set up now?
Front of rear steer?
Where on the frame is the lower A-arm mounts?
You already got all the components...If they aren't butchered up too bad... you can still salvage what you got Just, It will take some thinking
Like I said ...
Take a step back and a deep breath...
We'll get you thru this ;D
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when you rake a car 10 degrees with arms that are about 14" long, it most certainly is gonna limit wheel travel, the frame travel is not gonna be the same as the actual wheel travel, limiting its use...
Huh?
It moves the same... just on a different plane, Pure numbers may be lessened by the mounts needing to be angled...Loosing the frame to ground by the amount of the offset but that is minimal...
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Whack the front end off that beetle you got and stick that bad boy on there, it will offer more suspension than your ever gonna get with quad a arms... ;D
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well its obvious that is to much rake.. i mounted the arms on the frame as closely to the way they were on the quad. the top arms are exactly one inch out furter than the bottom arms, when going from bolt center to bolt center. so i built my frame with the top tubes an inch out so i could use the same size tabs for each arm. truthfully id like to just keep the spindles and build my own arms and shorten my front center section. basically do just like carlriddle did, but use heims and not balljoints. im lost. no camera. almost ready to throw in trash.
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I have a question. It was suggested to use quad arms and spindles EXACTLY as the were on the quad to prevent these types of problems.Why did you not do so?
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on a quad there like what 3" apart inside? kinda hard to replicate that on a buggy...
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A few inchs like a quad should not be all that hard. This picture of Tuts front end shows a dang nice layout of it. Toss in a center load rack or whatever you wish to steer with with the tierod points that close together and angle them like the quad ran them.
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Not hard when its setup like that, voodoos is not tho...A 48" front track is a bit small for a 2 seater as well, all that its gonna be mounted side x side...
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i did mount them exactly as they were on the quad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just the center is wider!!! that should not affect anything. that should not affect an geometry. yea if i made the centers only a few inches apart then my front end would be tiny.. on a wide 2 seater. that wouldnt look goofy ::) well whatever, sorry i asked for help.. ill just figure it out myself..
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Just take all the rake out and the 8" of travel will be fine, probbaly the best you are gonna get with them...
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thats fine. i dont need much travle at all.. its just a "depressing" issue so to say. spend all the time to just make it work and it wont.. ugh.
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thats fine. i dont need much travle at all.. its just a "depressing" issue so to say. spend all the time to just make it work and it wont.. ugh.
Trust me voodoo, I know how you feel 150%.... :(
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200%. I have a recent FUBAR that I'll spill the beans on soon. We all do it. Anyone that says different is either God or a liar. Hell even God makes mistakes.Look at the platypus!
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200%. I have a recent FUBAR that I'll spill the beans on soon. We all do it. Anyone that says different is either God or a liar. Hell even God makes mistakes.Look at the platypus!
What is wrong with the Platypus? LOL
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Same thing as Alibre. (inside bad joke) You think it's right.You check,check check and then you got a platypus! LOL!!! Know what I mean?
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Why you dissin the platapus? LOL. Poor creature has no say in the matter.
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He is cute.....................
but useless.LOL!!
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Funny lookin' sure but useless? I wouldn't go picking up a male if I was you ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus_venom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus_venom)
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He is cute.....................
If we dont know WHAT it is how are we to sure its a HE.
With the rest of it so messed up, how can we be sure how to sex it??
Its kinda cute though. :-*
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How can we be sure how to sex it??
Carefully. But really now, why you sex up a platypus?
Course this one does have a come hither look to it?
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.obsessedwithreality.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F01%2Fevolution-platypus.jpg&hash=2ff74545a178092a9236c796bbf709afaff0eb1f)
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Wicked littl
Funny lookin' sure but useless? I wouldn't go picking up a male if I was you ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus_venom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus_venom)
Wicked little SOB and still useless. I mean the poor thing has a beaver tail for a snout!
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Ya but you got a PONYTAIL :o
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Ya but you got a PONYTAIL :o
HEHEHEHEEHEHheheheheehehehehheh!!!!!!
Anything happening on the front end Voodo?
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Ya but you got a PONYTAIL :o
HEHEHEHEEHEHheheheheehehehehheh!!!!!!
I NEVER said I (or it)was useful! ;D ;D ;D
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I guess I need to read the multi quote thread huh?LOL!!!!!
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Yeak VDC how's the front coming?
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i work monday through thursday, so no work.. id really like the put theose heims i got on the spindle because those ball joints are worthless.. im really pissed that i messed up all my tabs i made.. i guess i just need a huge stack of em.
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You can never have too many tabs....
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i have no easy way to get them though.. i had to bribe the assistant team leader in the fab shop, while the supervisor was on vacation.. all he did was punch the holes in the center of my plates i gave him. then i just cut them in half and perfect fit tabs. he only made me 16 of them.. just enough.. now they are scraped.
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I do mine the hard way. Flat stock with a grinder and drill press to shape, but someday I'm just going to order a whole pile of them laser cut so I have them ready when I need them. I generally base my tab size on the size bolt I am running through them. So I could get by with a whole pile of about 3 different sizes.
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the only two sizes of bolts i use are 3/8 and 1/2. for anything i would need radiused tabs for. thinking of going to the plasma cutter tomorrow and seeing what they would charge.
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Just go to your steel supplier and do the flat bar thing like Boost suggested.I've made hundreds of them like that. Poor people have poor ways and YES I have been in that boat MUCH of my life.
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a and a manufacturing has them already cut cheaper than you could have them cut.... ;D
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i know, boost and master.. i have always made my own tabs with flat bar and grinder.. just getting to the point where im tired of making my own shit, would rather just buy it to save time.
a&a doesnt have the size i need.. and at 1.75 per tab, i can have them made cheaper.