DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: jersdunz on January 14, 2016, 11:14:05 PM
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So I have been trying to find threads where a cooler was added into an RPM drive.
I'd like to do mine to have about a 3 quart capacity.. with a large cooler.
Have been so far unsuccessful.. Anybody have input on such a conversation?
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Flyrider on MBN did. Think its buried in here http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/projects-progress/20058-ragnar-two-seater-zx14-whoop-eater.html
It could be another thread he has going? But he basically tapped the bottom (or used drain?) to feed small pump that runs thru cooler back to top of box. Line back in dumps on input shaft. Think it added about 2 qts to RPM setup.
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WHat's the problem. It's pretty straight forward putting a pump and cooler on it. Any RELIABLE oil pump such as a Mocal is about the size of an RV water pump. Finding a good place to put it can be a pain due to their size.
This one is almost the universal one used by top teams.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/MocalDiffCoolerPump/Mocal_Differential_Cooler_Pump (http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/MocalDiffCoolerPump/Mocal_Differential_Cooler_Pump)
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The Jeffco could use this treatment as well, problem is another 8amps will make my charging system tap-out, and why I never pursued it. Still bookmarking that link, thanks Fabr!
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I thought the one I saw was using a mechanical gear driven off the box. But I slept since then.
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Get a small hydraulic cylinder. Tap an extra port in the top. Put in 2 discriminator valves. Attach to rear trailing arm and frame. As the suspension cycles, it will pump the oil through the cooler. Zero HP loss and it always works.........
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Get a small hydraulic cylinder. Tap an extra port in the top. Put in 2 discriminator valves. Attach to rear trailing arm and frame. As the suspension cycles, it will pump the oil through the cooler. Zero HP loss and it always works.........
dual or single acting cylinder?
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Get a small hydraulic cylinder. Tap an extra port in the top. Put in 2 discriminator valves. Attach to rear trailing arm and frame. As the suspension cycles, it will pump the oil through the cooler. Zero HP loss and it always works.........
Was this just off the top of your head or are there people doing that? The concept is cool but,does it work in the real world?
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Busa guys could use the busa dry sump oil pump to do it as well.
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I like the ideas so far and in a minute i will tell you mine.
If I got my friends rail off him I would try it (as it has an RPM) But he sorta trashed it a good bit since he got it and wants near what he payed for it and it needs a bit of work right now. Soooo...
Anyways I was looking at his RPM when we had it apart and though if you could drill and tap a hole in just the right spot behind the large bottom gear and place a hose from there to the top the spinning bottom gear with its huge teeth would be throwing oil with force at the tube and force it to the top where you could drizzle it to the top bearings.
Would be easy enough to put a little cooler there and flow the oil through that before reentering the tranny.
Enemy your issue might be solved to avoid the extra amp draw is a second alternator driven off the axle. It would of course only make power when moving but thats the only time you would need it and wired into the rest of the system it would untax the engines system by adding needed amps if you are already that close to maxxies for the lights when hauling tail.
Not 100 percent sure the oil would flow with the idea I posted but it seems like it would.
Still would be nice to have a system that would flow oil to the top bearings even sitting still so if in neutral the top bearings were still soaked.
I also keep thinking I have seen somewhere a pump that uses engine vacuum to do a little work. If the right one could be had you could use engine vacuum to get the oil up top. I am pretty sure I have seem something like this somewhere.
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I am not sure what Fabrs Busa dry sump pump is but what about a car one?
Get a scavenger pump off a dry sump oil system. These are made for this kind of thing anyways and are proven and easy to get.
Set it up so its driven off the top shaft of the RPM.
This way ANY time the input shaft was spinning (even in neutral) it would oil the cooler and you could sploosh the top bearings at the same time.
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Of course something as simple as an oil slinger would likely distribute oil just fine also. Remember the little round sheet metal disc that old small block chevys had on the crank snout to sling oil to the cam gear to keep the top cam gear/chain lubed?
Here's some pics of it and other slingers. They are used a lot in places.Should be good for some non parasitic oiling idea options.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sbc+oil+slinger&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH_b7FuK7KAhVQ2mMKHekYCGwQsAQIMA&biw=800&bih=395 (https://www.google.com/search?q=sbc+oil+slinger&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjH_b7FuK7KAhVQ2mMKHekYCGwQsAQIMA&biw=800&bih=395)
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The only thing with that in the RPM Fabr is the bottom end does sling the oil but only when it is in motion.
But I guess you likely know that?
Spinning the top shaft in neutral for a long while will hurt the top bearings due to no oil being thrown up from the non moving bottom.
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I like the ideas so far and in a minute i will tell you mine.
If I got my friends rail off him I would try it (as it has an RPM) But he sorta trashed it a good bit since he got it and wants near what he payed for it and it needs a bit of work right now. Soooo...
Anyways I was looking at his RPM when we had it apart and though if you could drill and tap a hole in just the right spot behind the large bottom gear and place a hose from there to the top the spinning bottom gear with its huge teeth would be throwing oil with force at the tube and force it to the top where you could drizzle it to the top bearings.
Would be easy enough to put a little cooler there and flow the oil through that before reentering the tranny.
Enemy your issue might be solved to avoid the extra amp draw is a second alternator driven off the axle. It would of course only make power when moving but thats the only time you would need it and wired into the rest of the system it would untax the engines system by adding needed amps if you are already that close to maxxies for the lights when hauling tail.
Not 100 percent sure the oil would flow with the idea I posted but it seems like it would.
Still would be nice to have a system that would flow oil to the top bearings even sitting still so if in neutral the top bearings were still soaked.
I also keep thinking I have seen somewhere a pump that uses engine vacuum to do a little work. If the right one could be had you could use engine vacuum to get the oil up top. I am pretty sure I have seem something like this somewhere.
suggested a similar idea to shawn at jeffco a year or so ago but i suggested using a piece of aluminum shaped sort of funnel line to catch a large spray and funnel it into a small tube that could be carried outside the box and fed into a top mounted cooler that gravity would help return the oil back into the top of the box. yes it would have to be spinning to work however i like bdwk's suggestion and also wonder if a lobe could be added to the input shaft on either box and a mechanical fuel pump used to pump the oil?
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Oil-Gear-Pump-12v-Scavenge-Replace-STS-NEW-/161429648578?hash=item2595f4f4c2:g:98cAAOSwpdpVYBL-&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Oil-Gear-Pump-12v-Scavenge-Replace-STS-NEW-/161429648578?hash=item2595f4f4c2:g:98cAAOSwpdpVYBL-&vxp=mtr)
or modify something like this kawi oil pump
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-KZ440-KZ-440-Belt-Drive-5319-Oil-Pump-/361457819738?hash=item542890a05a:g:6qwAAOSwo3pWgccR&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-KZ440-KZ-440-Belt-Drive-5319-Oil-Pump-/361457819738?hash=item542890a05a:g:6qwAAOSwo3pWgccR&vxp=mtr)
or a small belt driven hydrolic pump and replace the belt pulley with a small sprocket and run it off the chain or something?
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The only thing with that in the RPM Fabr is the bottom end does sling the oil but only when it is in motion.
But I guess you likely know that?
Spinning the top shaft in neutral for a long while will hurt the top bearings due to no oil being thrown up from the non moving bottom.
The bottom timing chain gear slung oil as well,just not to the right area. The combination of the slinger and the outward bulge around the front seal directed the oil to where it did the job. The gear alone did not do that. In fact it directed the oil from where needed. IMO,this is a simple fix if it is indeed a lube issue and not an undersized bearing issue ........ I feel the top bearing would have to run for a very,very long time in neutral to cause it harm. Ball bearings can run with very little lube under no/very low loading. Just my .02.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Oil-Gear-Pump-12v-Scavenge-Replace-STS-NEW-/161429648578?hash=item2595f4f4c2:g:98cAAOSwpdpVYBL-&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-Rear-Mount-Turbo-Oil-Gear-Pump-12v-Scavenge-Replace-STS-NEW-/161429648578?hash=item2595f4f4c2:g:98cAAOSwpdpVYBL-&vxp=mtr)
or modify something like this kawi oil pump
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-KZ440-KZ-440-Belt-Drive-5319-Oil-Pump-/361457819738?hash=item542890a05a:g:6qwAAOSwo3pWgccR&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-KZ440-KZ-440-Belt-Drive-5319-Oil-Pump-/361457819738?hash=item542890a05a:g:6qwAAOSwo3pWgccR&vxp=mtr)
or a small belt driven hydrolic pump and replace the belt pulley with a small sprocket and run it off the chain or something?
Did Rube Goldberg join the thread? You guys are over thinking this. ;) but 8)
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Was this just off the top of your head or are there people doing that? The concept is cool but,does it work in the real world?
Very old trick used on many buggy's.
Single acting cylinder.
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What keeps a single acting cylinder from sucking air past the seals instead of oil into the cylinder? A standard o ring seal or a single directional seal like most single acting cylinders will suck air on the non pressure/return stroke. I tried that once on another project. Damn thing sucked as much air into the system as it pumped oil.
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Damn thing sucked as much air into the system as it pumped oil.
I wonder if it would hurt much in this instance since there is air in the RPM tranny anyways and it still needs a vent to burp the air out as it warms/cools.
We need to machine fins into the RPM case. Yah thats the ticket!
And a fan on the RPM brake shaft. lol.
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If air entered the cylinder , it would just cavitate and stop pumping. The cylinder idea will work but I think it needs a cylinder piston with opposing seals to work well. In other words a cheap POS might not be a good idea. Perhaps machine a custom piston from aluminum for opposing seals to use in a cheapo cylinder?
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You're going to need a Johnson's Rear End Pump. Mr Johnson recommended a .25 gear if I remember correctly. Nascar takeoffs are all over Ebay for around $100.
^^^This was from post on other site^^^
http://johnsonsoilpumps.com/product_frame.htm (http://johnsonsoilpumps.com/product_frame.htm)
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Could be as easy as using the right lube as well. Here is a link to a very informative study of gear lubes. Very eye opening.
'
http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf (http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf)
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now we only ever checked box temp with a temp gun on enemy's box so we never actually knew the temp of the oil inside and we only checked the box temp after he stopped, skid to a stop so to speak but still not an accurate reading on internal oil temp at speed under top load. several readings were just under 210* on the aluminum case and that dropped to i believe 175* by adding an additional 1/2 oil over what shawn at jeffco said fill level was. that 35* speaks for itself but i can see the oil slinger or 2 of them needed in the top of the jeffco box for bearings on both sides. i always thought or wondered if jeffco designed that box to be layed down on it's side so all gears were floating in oil. the design of the box and the way it was designed to line up with the counter shaft sprocket case to case leads me to think that.
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Always wanted to put a temp probe in that damn box and get the actual reading, doesn't seem to holdup long enough to bother. >:(
The Idaho trip is the longest it has been under a sustained load and did run considerably cooler using Red Line 50w racing oil @ 3 quarts (I will NOT run the recomended thick gear oil ever again) The noise I heard at the end of the trip has not been identified yet, but DS and I are leaning toward axle/suspension bind of some sort (hoping so anyway..) It was something very different that the last noises of a failing Jeffco. Will know more in the next few weeks..
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If noise was after you joined the inverted club, that make sense on suspension bind. Just a bit of tweeking going on there.
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Ya just had to rub it in huh. Lol!!!
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I kinda expected it sooner or later!
And just for the record, the noise was heard BEFORE I went all Superman... with a pocket full of Kryptonite.
Sorry for the hijack Jerz!
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Sorry for the hijack Jerz!
lol are you kidding me, I've been irritated i Got to miss the Cartwheel Sense it happened... I wasn't sure it was possible... lol
I am digging the temp Probe Idea. It'd be easy to put a tee on the hot side, in front of the pump.
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pic doesn't show it all lol so here ya go of course this is LS not st A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD4qB-mrKfc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD4qB-mrKfc)
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Super fly........
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what you can't make out at the end of the video is what enemy says.....pulling seat foam from my butt LMAO LMAO rofl rofl
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I thought ds was driving?
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It was DS.
Although I can't prove that...
;D
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Always wanted to put a temp probe in that damn box and get the actual reading, doesn't seem to holdup long enough to bother. >:(
The Idaho trip is the longest it has been under a sustained load and did run considerably cooler using Red Line 50w racing oil @ 3 quarts (I will NOT run the recomended thick gear oil ever again) The noise I heard at the end of the trip has not been identified yet, but DS and I are leaning toward axle/suspension bind of some sort (hoping so anyway..) It was something very different that the last noises of a failing Jeffco. Will know more in the next few weeks..
What did you end up finding on the noise??
My oil pump died during the first 3 hours of operation..
Granted it was used when I picked it up.. It didn't agree with the gear oil..
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When I drained the oil to do the inspection, a few pieces of ring gear dropped into to pan. Viewing through the fill plug, I could see about 6 teeth with the edges missing. Plugs went back in and car pushed out of the way. Jeffco box is a complete failure that can't take a boosted Busa, period. It will be removed from the car and I will not sink another penny into it.
Soooooo, sprocket drive will be going in it's place!
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What did you end up finding on the noise??
My oil pump died during the first 3 hours of operation..
Granted it was used when I picked it up.. It didn't agree with the gear oil..
I have a near new Mocal lpump if you're interested
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When I drained the oil to do the inspection, a few pieces of ring gear dropped into to pan. Viewing through the fill plug, I could see about 6 teeth with the edges missing. Plugs went back in and car pushed out of the way. Jeffco box is a complete failure that can't take a boosted Busa, period. It will be removed from the car and I will not sink another penny into it.
Soooooo, sprocket drive will be going in it's place!
That freakin sucks... you've ruled out the rpm box or just over the expense ..
I have a near new Mocal lpump if you're interested
I am interested sending a PM right away.
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That freakin sucks... you've ruled out the rpm box or just over the expense ..
He's more interested in going forward without haveing to worry. He likes :D :D :D to mash the fun pedal!
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I'm pretty sure it's this one. I'll get you the rest of the info this evening.
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He's more interested in going forward without haveing to worry. He likes :D :D :D to mash the fun pedal!
well that's like trying to find unicorns that Poop Rainbow colored ice cream... worry free on a ( correct me if i'm wrong ) 350 hp busa package.. nope.. lol
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well that's like trying to find unicorns that Poop Rainbow colored ice cream... worry free on a ( correct me if i'm wrong ) 350 hp busa package.. nope.. lol
Maybe 275ish at 8psi
Hell I just want to find a unicorn and be able to chase it for more than a couple hours at a shot! Finding the one pooping rainbow colored ice cream will be the real challange. That will possibly happen after 30psi ;D
Them are some fast mother effers!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbYWhdLO43Q)
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i don`t want to know why you found that video and i don`t want to know if you bought one there stools for the stool. that was twisted LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
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That someone made that video is disturbing, and that it has 22,000,000 views is just F'ed.
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rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl I didn't even check the view count lol didn't even finish watching it rofl rofl
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and you thought the narwals video was bad LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
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That someone made that video is disturbing, and that it has 22,000,000 views is just F'ed.
22,000,001 views now. LMAO LMAO
That dude stole my hair from the 80's!
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Here's the one I have.I thought it was a mocal but it is a Tilton. SFAIK,it is a mocal with a Tilton decal though.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-40-524?seid=srese1&gclid=CI7A7ruTxMwCFYqPfgodTcMApQ (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-40-524?seid=srese1&gclid=CI7A7ruTxMwCFYqPfgodTcMApQ)
I only had maybe an hour on it for a turbo return. DIdn't need it so I removed it. $125 shipped.
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oh no you watched it too LMAO rofl rofl
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i hope the rpm works out and i hope you are happy with it. i just know enemy is going to do a great write up the jeffco box at some point.
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i have seen 1 apart that doug brought to st a....not much in there but imo the straight cut gears add a lot to it. i really think that is 1 big hurtle with the jeffco once he got better bearings and shawn said he got with weddle for better gears. i know enemy may disagree but when you look at all the rev boxs i know of there is only one that hasnat left anyone stranded or spit gears out yet.....thats fabrs. great job fabr
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i hope the rpm works out and i hope you are happy with it. i just know enemy is going to do a great write up the jeffco box at some point.
I'm sure it will be a heart felt testimonial..................... LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
Sorry,enemy. ;D ;D
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i have seen 1 apart that doug brought to st a....not much in there but imo the straight cut gears add a lot to it. i really think that is 1 big hurtle with the jeffco once he got better bearings and shawn said he got with weddle for better gears. i know enemy may disagree but when you look at all the rev boxs i know of there is only one that hasnat left anyone stranded or spit gears out yet.....thats fabrs. great job fabr
Thanks,ds. I've run it about as hard as anyone has any of the other options.I tried to put together a complete package that would hopefully be near bullet proof. 4-5 years now ,so far, so good.I truly love the 6 gears and 4 gear ranges I have with it. Too bad I don't see a market large enough for me to build a few to be readily available . Maybe when I get the new car and house done the economy will have recovered finally and that could change. There is no doubt it is the best setup out there ,bar none for a bike powered buggy.
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i am betting the market could pick some interest back up but the utv market is still taken over. now i bet the new shifter yamaha utv flops on its face. that is the one that was left in front of our cabin after it was rolled. i`m sorry flipped end for end lol i really think the jeffco box is a nice package and if it had straight cut gears like the rpm it would do sooo much bestter and the rev cassette inside is far stronger than the rest of the unit but it has not been reliable for enemy ...at all. fabr....what you built has been great. now the guibo thing was a simple fix when you went to rubber but other than that no gear issue. now 1 could expect that every 4 or 6 years you may have to rebuild a box or repairs but not every 4 to 6 rides.
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Yep ,the sign and drive mentality has taken hold but there are still a lot of guys like us that just won't be satisified with anything "off the shelf".
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very true!! just fewer and fewer of us each year for many reasons........ ;) you can't teach stupidity lol
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I hate the those stupid utv's have gone wild... the dunes are a more dangerous place with them.
but I'm a judge mental asshole. those machines are so stinking subpar in my book... la la la
happy thoughts..
Hey this oil cooler thing is going to help me oil last longer... after the pump quit the box was quite a bit hotter to the touch.. I am however going to change how its wired so it only comes on at temp.
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I hate the those stupid utv's have gone wild... the dunes are a more dangerous place with them.
but I'm a judge mental asshole. those machines are so stinking subpar in my book... la la la
happy thoughts..
Hey this oil cooler thing is going to help me oil last longer... after the pump quit the box was quite a bit hotter to the touch.. I am however going to change how its wired so it only comes on at temp.
bb:
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So I bought the tilton pump from fabr....
It's installed and I'll be running to the dunes after work for a trial by fire ride..
I changed the wiring to run both at temp. Instead of the pump full time and fan at temp.
Hopefully that'll keep the pump alive a lot longer.
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that should do the trick for ya and take the go pro!
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:swig:
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I got soon go pro from last Thursday.. Haven't chopped it up yet....
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Vroom... Vroom....
Editing video with no sound on the PC.. not Recommended
https://youtu.be/azquhiso0-w
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jj: jj: jj: Nice
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Thanks for the ride in the dunes Jerz! I definitely needed that!
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Thanks for the ride in the dunes Jerz! I definitely needed that!
I even managed to keep the wheels down.... ;)
Course, I did cheat by leaving the whistler off and running 12hp
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Same Ride Different Perspective... :)
https://youtu.be/6zLFmgIze_Y
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I even managed to keep the wheels down.... ;)
Course, I did cheat by leaving the whistler off and running 12hp
Well,with all of 12hp I'd expect the wheels to stay down,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ;) ;D
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lol true
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Same Ride Different Perspective... :)
https://youtu.be/6zLFmgIze_Y
Thanks, that was a great ride. Dammnn, I miss those dunes!!
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i like both video's.....but......you need to slow down so your buddies can keep up LMAO LMAO LMAO ;D ;D
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2021 update, i don't think i ever heard the oil pump kick on. So i removed it.
Some how the Honda is still charging like a boss on the stock rotating assembly.
https://youtu.be/7KzPStEgaaw
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You are a lucky man to live so close to the best dunes in North America! Keep the videos coming, maybe we can ride together this summer!
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great video! did the new exh make a diff on spool time with your current turbo? you have an alternator on there too don't you?
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You are a lucky man to live so close to the best dunes in North America! Keep the videos coming, maybe we can ride together this summer!
Hell yea .. l!!
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great video! did the new exh make a diff on spool time with your current turbo? you have an alternator on there too don't you?
You know i do.. voltage has been a non issue since i added it.
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good to hear, i knew you had added one but didn't know how well it worked out.