Author Topic: AR-51 build  (Read 136892 times)

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Offline deranged

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #120 on: July 20, 2018, 05:26:25 AM »
So i made a quick spreadsheet of my available travel and shock stroke to see where I am at.

It looks like I have 10" of available travel with me in the car and near 11" in the front of available travel. 

So that being said, I think my ride height is pretty spot on, or should I drop down a spring size from 200 to maybe 150?  That will give me a window of adding some preload too.  I will have to crunch some numbers later today.

I live nowhere near a desert....

Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #121 on: July 20, 2018, 06:57:22 AM »
The answer to that is that there is no actual answer. Suspension tuning is a matter of driver preference and riding conditions within a big window of settings. You are within that window. What do YOU think will make you happy? Personally,I'd go out and drive it and see how you like it now. You made a HUGE spring rate change,need to try it out. As to having the ability to add some pre load if needed,yes you are right BUT you may be happy with the change you made  as it is. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #122 on: July 20, 2018, 07:00:27 AM »
Fabr,
GREAT INFO, and thanks for that chart!  I will be draining my system today and will fill er up with some distilled water and antifreeze.  Ya can't argue with what you have stated at all. 

And for the engines, I agree too with the engines.  I like to have the availability of parts, pieces and whatever may be needed at any given time for an common engine. 

Justin
Distilled is not an absolutely ,100%,gotta have it or disaster happens thing either. It is the best practice but good clean tap will work almost as well.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #123 on: July 20, 2018, 07:30:12 AM »
Well,
It's been a busy year so far and haven't been on here in a while!!  Well I have done a couple things to the car as of lately.
I went from a 10" ebay fan to a 12" Spal curved blade fan, drained my coolant and used some Royal Purple "water wetter" type stuff.  What I used before was distilled water and water-wetter.  I used distilled water per Suzuki.  However that is mixed with antifreeze.  Well I guess distilled water will actually draw minerals out of the cooling jacket and reduce the cooling efficiency?  Well, I now have purified drinking water and that Royal Purple additive.  All things combined, I can run it really REALLY hard in the dunes and it will get up to 210 with a 95* ambient air temp.  I don't push it past that, as I will stop for literally 30 seconds to a min. and it will drop to 190 and stay there under "normal" driving around on the dunes.  Possibly may go to a 4 row Civic rad vs the 2 row I currently have.


I thought I'd re-address this point. I called BS on it not because it is incorrect.  Water will always dissolve almost anything into it and make it more impure. That is a fact. SO,that said,yes distilled will draw minerals existing in the water jackets into it. Same with tap water. This is my take on this subject. If using brand new castings and radiator and all new coolant lines there is every reason to use distilled since there are no minerals to get dissolved into the distilled water. On a used block/heads,etc.,the use of distilled is still best practice but good clean tap will likely be just fine due to the fact distilled will "draw out "the deposited minerals coating the water jackets (so will tap water)and in effect turn it right back into tap water. Do I use distilled? Nope. I use 25-30ish% antifreeze to get the needed anti-corrosion and pump seal protection while keeping most of the good heat transfer that pure water would give.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:00:50 AM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #124 on: July 20, 2018, 01:09:42 PM »
I will definitely keep the Kawi in mind.  The numbers look really good for sure. 

A little rear spring update.  I put the new coils on last night and bolted on my dirt wheels to take it for a little spin around a construction site near my house.  WOW!  It feels like riding on a cloud now!  There was a small jump if you will.  Normally if I were to hit something like that, it would kick the ass end up.  Not now!  The valving seems to be pretty good too.  I had it on the softest setting on the clicker and I think I can actually stiffen it up a tad.  I may actually now get a slightly lighter spring for the top on the front. 

The rear, I have 4.5" of shaft in the shock in the rear.  (14" shock using 12" of stroke.) 
The front I have 4" of shaft in the shock with a 10" shock.  Seems like I could go another inch into the shock.  This would level the car out and get that front down a little more.
Below is a picture of how the car sits now, with my lovely assistant behind the wheel.
 

Justin

really wondered until i saw this type as justing doens't sound female   LMAO LMAO
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #125 on: July 20, 2018, 01:25:41 PM »
The answer to that is that there is no actual answer. Suspension tuning is a matter of driver preference and riding conditions within a big window of settings. You are within that window. What do YOU think will make you happy? Personally,I'd go out and drive it and see how you like it now. You made a HUGE spring rate change,need to try it out. As to having the ability to add some pre load if needed,yes you are right BUT you may be happy with the change you made  as it is.

i agree with fabr on this one.......tuning is how the driver likes it. setting up a rail for jumping is diff than a smooth ride and again in desert etc etc so set it how yo like it and so it doesn't bottom out.

i do like the idea of the kawi h2. fabr is right the busa has massive support as far as parts and high performance builds go. the yamaha 1.7 vmax is an awsome motor too but the aniversary edition must be a grey hair only bike cause no one seems to wreck them!  ;D ;D ;)
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #126 on: July 20, 2018, 01:26:51 PM »
Well,
It's been a busy year so far and haven't been on here in a while!!  Well I have done a couple things to the car as of lately.
I went from a 10" ebay fan to a 12" Spal curved blade fan, drained my coolant and used some Royal Purple "water wetter" type stuff.  What I used before was distilled water and water-wetter.  I used distilled water per Suzuki.  However that is mixed with antifreeze.  Well I guess distilled water will actually draw minerals out of the cooling jacket and reduce the cooling efficiency? Well, I now have purified drinking water and that Royal Purple additive.  All things combined, I can run it really REALLY hard in the dunes and it will get up to 210 with a 95* ambient air temp.  I don't push it past that, as I will stop for literally 30 seconds to a min. and it will drop to 190 and stay there under "normal" driving around on the dunes.  Possibly may go to a 4 row Civic rad vs the 2 row I currently have.

I also made some adapters for my bead-lock wheels!  It looks KILLER!  so from going from 8" wide wheels to a 10" wide wheel and 13" wide paddles there is more of a contact patch on the sand.  It really hooks up good now! 

I made some spring adjustments too.  Originally had 300# on the bottom and 250# on the top...WAY over-sprung.  I had 2" of shaft in the body..(LMAO)  I was hoping for 4-5" of shaft in the body..(LMFAO, married mans dream).  I did the math over and over and my simple mind said if you need to drop another 2" cut the poundage in half.  Well, my numbers matched up to the calculations that Downsouth Motorsports came up with.  I should be getting the new coils today.  150 on the bottom with 100 on the top.  This will allow me some pre-load if I needed.  Then I will have to test and possibly some valving.

This car is just too much damn fun!  Not sure if I want to start another build, or do a Busa swap with this car.  Looking at dyno numbers of the 750, bikes are seeing 55# ft of torque at 12k...the first gen busa has that at 2500 rpm...  And this car will pull the front wheels juuuust ever so slightly over a roller at 10-13k RPM.   


I'm sorry but I gotta call BS on that. The simple truth is that there is no better coolant than 100% distilled water. Is there a problem with running pure distilled? Yup,no corrosion inhibitors. That is why it needs at least some antifreeze in it. Water wetter products ,IMO,are just marketing hype and will absolutely not cool any better than water/antifreeze that also provides ample corrosion protection. If a person is having controlling temps it is simply a matter of either too small a radiator or much more likely too little airflow through the radiator due to either radiator placement of crappy,low cfm fan/s. You shouldn't need or really want a 4 row since the extra restriction will basically stop the airflow through the core. This has been hashed over on many,many forums and in written literature for a very long time now. There is a reason why universally 50/50 distilled and antifreeze is recommended in an engine. On a side note 210 is absolutely not an issue. Hell even at230-240 which is perfectly fine for an engine to run at water will not boil if the cooling system is able to hold enough pressure. Here is a chart to show this. SOOOOO,forget the fancy stuff and get you cooling system airflow and system pressure up to par. 

Here is a chart showing the effect of pressure on boiling point . It's just physics. Honestly,don't worry yourself about keeping the water temp to any certain number like 210 or below. Just run enough system pressure to prevent boiling. Easy peasy. The YXZ's I have all run 220-240 all the time as yamaha designed them to do . I know how hard it is to get comfortable with the higher coolant temps but most all new stuff run hotter by design today. I run approx 33% antifreeze in the busa buggy and the same in the v8 with 20 psi caps. No issues at all.




i have never seen a chart like this and very good info. should make that a sticky note.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #127 on: July 20, 2018, 07:12:42 PM »
Well,
It's been a busy year so far and haven't been on here in a while!!  Well I have done a couple things to the car as of lately.
I went from a 10" ebay fan to a 12" Spal curved blade fan, drained my coolant and used some Royal Purple "water wetter" type stuff.  What I used before was distilled water and water-wetter.  I used distilled water per Suzuki.  However that is mixed with antifreeze.  Well I guess distilled water will actually draw minerals out of the cooling jacket and reduce the cooling efficiency? Well, I now have purified drinking water and that Royal Purple additive.  All things combined, I can run it really REALLY hard in the dunes and it will get up to 210 with a 95* ambient air temp.  I don't push it past that, as I will stop for literally 30 seconds to a min. and it will drop to 190 and stay there under "normal" driving around on the dunes.  Possibly may go to a 4 row Civic rad vs the 2 row I currently have.

I also made some adapters for my bead-lock wheels!  It looks KILLER!  so from going from 8" wide wheels to a 10" wide wheel and 13" wide paddles there is more of a contact patch on the sand.  It really hooks up good now! 

I made some spring adjustments too.  Originally had 300# on the bottom and 250# on the top...WAY over-sprung.  I had 2" of shaft in the body..(LMAO)  I was hoping for 4-5" of shaft in the body..(LMFAO, married mans dream).  I did the math over and over and my simple mind said if you need to drop another 2" cut the poundage in half.  Well, my numbers matched up to the calculations that Downsouth Motorsports came up with.  I should be getting the new coils today.  150 on the bottom with 100 on the top.  This will allow me some pre-load if I needed.  Then I will have to test and possibly some valving.

This car is just too much damn fun!  Not sure if I want to start another build, or do a Busa swap with this car.  Looking at dyno numbers of the 750, bikes are seeing 55# ft of torque at 12k...the first gen busa has that at 2500 rpm...  And this car will pull the front wheels juuuust ever so slightly over a roller at 10-13k RPM.   


I'm sorry but I gotta call BS on that. The simple truth is that there is no better coolant than 100% distilled water. Is there a problem with running pure distilled? Yup,no corrosion inhibitors. That is why it needs at least some antifreeze in it. Water wetter products ,IMO,are just marketing hype and will absolutely not cool any better than water/antifreeze that also provides ample corrosion protection. If a person is having controlling temps it is simply a matter of either too small a radiator or much more likely too little airflow through the radiator due to either radiator placement of crappy,low cfm fan/s. You shouldn't need or really want a 4 row since the extra restriction will basically stop the airflow through the core. This has been hashed over on many,many forums and in written literature for a very long time now. There is a reason why universally 50/50 distilled and antifreeze is recommended in an engine. On a side note 210 is absolutely not an issue. Hell even at230-240 which is perfectly fine for an engine to run at water will not boil if the cooling system is able to hold enough pressure. Here is a chart to show this. SOOOOO,forget the fancy stuff and get you cooling system airflow and system pressure up to par. 

Here is a chart showing the effect of pressure on boiling point . It's just physics. Honestly,don't worry yourself about keeping the water temp to any certain number like 210 or below. Just run enough system pressure to prevent boiling. Easy peasy. The YXZ's I have all run 220-240 all the time as yamaha designed them to do . I know how hard it is to get comfortable with the higher coolant temps but most all new stuff run hotter by design today. I run approx 33% antifreeze in the busa buggy and the same in the v8 with 20 psi caps. No issues at all.




i have never seen a chart like this and very good info. should make that a sticky note.
You asked,you received.   https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5671.0   ;D
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline deranged

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2018, 06:30:21 AM »
First run with the new spring set up.
Well, my GoPro case broke, so I didn't get any video.  BOOOO.  So I took it to Silver Lake yesterday and did a lap.  SOOOO much better! 
Initial comments.  Add more pre-load and tighten up the compression as the adjusters were all the way soft.  I added maybe 1.5" of preload and went put 5 clicks on the compression.
MUCHO better.  The initial setting would work for normal dune cruising.  Well, i'm not a cruiser.  LOL  I smacked the ass end a couple times pretty hard, hence a little more preload.

The dune conditions were pretty rough as it rained pretty good yesterday and there were some nasty whoops.  Not the normal whoops, but the deep one right at the bottom of the hill before you go up.  Even some of the bigger cars were slowing down there. 
One thing I noticed was at higher speed, the car worked really well and felt really good with no bottoming out.  Where I bottomed out was the dips per say, where you are going along and its a slight roller going down and then back up.  Not a whoop by any means.  This is where I would almost always bottom the ass end out.  Is this where slow speed dampening comes into play??

I think I will pull the front apart now and install a flutter stack.  The one I put in the rear is very evident that it is in there....Or is that where my low speed dampening is showing?
Time to research.  LOL

Justin
I live nowhere near a desert....

Offline dsrace

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2018, 03:42:24 PM »
very good news. now get some damn video!!  ;) ;) rofl so are you coming down to LS in oklahoma in oct when doug does?
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Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #130 on: July 26, 2018, 06:45:56 PM »
Come on down!!! I promise you you will like our dunes a LOT more than what you are used to. Hell,you might even like the group in person.  :nw :m
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline deranged

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2018, 05:18:34 AM »
Mornin' fellas!

Once again, work had me all over the place the past 3 weeks. 
YES!  I've GOTTA get down to LS with you guys!! I will roam around to find the fall trip thread.   

I am currently doing some mid season maintenance.
-New CV grease
-Some new Delrin rear suspension bushings
-New rear sprocket
-New clutch
-Oil change
-Fresh coolant
-Re-valve the rear shocks.  (Take out the flutter stack)
-New heim joints on the front suspension.

Currently i'm 1/2 way with the funds to go go out and pay cash for a Busa.  I like the availability to parts and tuning for those engines.

After my last trip my back really started hurting...and it wasn't going away.  I can't tell if it's that I just turned 40, or something is going on.  I see my doc today as he was leaning toward a cracked vertebrate or a bulged/ruptured disk. BOOOO!! 

Here are a couple more wheels up pictures!


I live nowhere near a desert....

Offline dsrace

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #132 on: August 20, 2018, 09:50:17 AM »
nice pics....need more padding in the seat for the back issue. my back hurts an its not from a disc. i just posted two replies in the fall trip thread. so you should be able to find it easy now.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline deranged

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2018, 10:32:13 AM »
So I am currently working a modification of the car. I am getting rid of the light bar and swapping that out with 3, 4" HID lights. The light bar didn't put out near as much light as I was expecting. Heck, I think just one of the HID units put out more light than the bar!

Well what I did was I made up a couple of U shaped pieces out of 1" .062 wall tubing and welded them into an oval. I then mounted that to the old light bar mounts.

With everything mocked up it looks pretty cool!

Tonight I will be making a tie rod of sorts that will go just above the middle light and extend back to my chassis. This will stabilize the assembly as well as give me quick and accurate up and down adjustment. Stay tuned!

Oh, in regards to my back issue.  I saw the physical therapist today.  He was very quick to identify the issue. My Sacrum which is what your spine attaches to and also connects everything to your hip bones.  Mine was twisted, rotated and crooked.  I could actually rotate my upper body to the left more than 25* more than if I were to rotate my upper body to the right.  After 45 min of him pulling, pushing, twisting and everything else imaginable he got that 90% back in place.  He said I should be 100% by the end of the month.



I live nowhere near a desert....

Offline fabr

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Re: AR-51 build
« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2018, 11:21:00 AM »
looks great. you will like those lights.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

 

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