Author Topic: You want change? part two  (Read 21805 times)

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Offline fabr

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2009, 04:24:50 PM »
Shape charges, I expect, still would require securing to the main structure to be effective.
I reckon it involved thermite/thermate myself as there is some evidence to it's presence. How it got there is perhaps the next question?
Correct and also the fact of the much larger quantity needed to bring about a structeral failure without pre cutting/weakening the beams just as the imploders do.

tell me more about the thermite theory.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2009, 04:28:21 PM »
And even after stating all that Fabr you will blindly accept that two buildings hit VERY differently by airplanes will fall the exact same way.

If you really got a "demolitions expert" who told you that I would never trust another word out his mouth about explosives. 

Niether you nor I know how the charges were set. Nor if these supposed rat traps were very well laid out. Or how they were designed. They were simply a means to cover those points needed to breaks the structure. The charges placed later could have been shaped charges. These will send nearly all of thier force in the desired direction. Just gotta tell them when to go boom. 

BUT if what he says is true. Then the plane was not really contained to well and the major part blast would have simply went out the already shattered windows. Bunch of noise but little damage.

Still does not explain the explosions from the buildings top to bottom. Boom boom boom from those who heard it and lived.

Unless you want to beleive the story about Jet fuel flowing down the elevator and exploding from floor to floor..... Riiiiiiight.

After inital impact the fuel was ignited then and there. NO WAY does fuel flow out of wings that are tore to shreds in a fireball THAT big and flow down floors to ignite. MUCH less up to the top too.

That fuel was literally atomized as it came out of the shredded wing at the speeds they hit and ignited then and there. All else was just that. Something else. 


All I can say is that the US Army thought he knew enough to be an explosives instructor. Good enough for me anyway.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

chrishallett83

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2009, 07:22:41 PM »
Unless you want to beleive the story about Jet fuel flowing down the elevator and exploding from floor to floor..... Riiiiiiight.

After inital impact the fuel was ignited then and there. NO WAY does fuel flow out of wings that are tore to shreds in a fireball THAT big and flow down floors to ignite. MUCH less up to the top too.

That fuel was literally atomized as it came out of the shredded wing at the speeds they hit and ignited then and there. All else was just that. Something else.

WRONG.

Jet fuel is basically kerosene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_fuel

It burns slowly as a liquid, with less intensity than regular gasoline, but still with plenty of heat. There is hundreds of thousands of litres of it in a modern airliner. More than enough to pour out of the planes and spill all over the place.

Also, the jet fuel doesn't have to flow up the elevator shafts to start fires on floors above - just the heat from the burning fuel below. In tall buildings, elevator shafts act like chimneys and funnel concentrated heat upwards.

The grease on the cables and rails of the elevators can and will easily alight when exposed to such heat, and guess what happens then? The fire is excited by the immense heat travelling up the shaft it is burning in, burning grease, plastic and aluminium fall away and move down the elevator shaft (keeping the running jet fuel burning), consequently fire spreads to other floors, both up and down.

Just by the by, I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. And I don't put much clout behind what anybody claims to know what happened in the details that day. When you fly an airliner into a building, all bets are off. You can theorise endlessly about what happened, but that's all it is, theories. There are just too many variables involved to be able to state with any real authority, "This is exactly what happened, and how."

Unless of course you repeat the experiment with proper scientific process...
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 07:27:31 PM by chrishallett83 »

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2009, 07:34:09 PM »
WRONG.

Jet fuel is basically kerosene. It burns slowly as a liquid, with less intensity than regular gasoline, but still with plenty of heat. There is hundreds of thousands of litres of it in a modern airliner. More than enough to pour out of the planes and spill all over the place.

Also, the jet fuel doesn't have to flow up the elevator shafts to start fires on floors above - just the heat from the burning fuel below. In tall buildings, elevator shafts act like chimneys and funnel concentrated heat upwards.

The grease on the cables and rails of the elevators can and will easily alight when exposed to such heat, and guess what happens then? The fire is excited by the immense heat travelling up the shaft is is burning in, burning grease, plastic and aluminium fall away and move down the elevator shaft (keeping the running jet fuel burning), cosequently fire spreads to other floors, both up and down.

Just by the by, I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. And I don't put much clout behind what anybody claims to know what happened in the details that day. When you fly an airliner into a building, all bets are off. You can theorise endlessly about what happened, but that's all it is, theories. There arejust too many variables involved to be able to state with any real authority, "This is exactly what happened, and how."

Unless of course you repeat the experiment with proper scientific process...

No, no I am not wrong. You seem to be forgetting that that jet fuel was not being poured out of a coffe pot. it did NOT "run out of the plane and pour all over the place".

 It was being slung from shredded metal into places and distributed at well over 200 much closer to 300 miles an hour!!!!!


At those speeds it was spred out far and quick. Atomized even and atomized fuel burns more rapidly than any other.

Doubt it. Light a ballon full of kerosene in a pile on the ground. Whoopee.

Now get in a car and drive 100 miles and hour and toss a similair ballon of kerosene into a wall with fire at its base.

Now try it at three hundred miles an hour. The fuel will bunr up almost at once at one hundred. At three hundred plus it will be worse.

You will never convince me or anyone that any fuel "poured" out of either of those planes. Sorry But I aint wrong.
 
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

chrishallett83

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2009, 07:43:14 PM »
We are not talking about a balloons worth of fuel here mate! Hundreds of thousands of litres, held in reinforced, self-sealing tanks...

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2009, 07:51:39 PM »
We are not talking about a balloons worth of fuel here mate! Hundreds of thousands of litres, held in reinforced, self-sealing tanks...

No kidding...... That was just for a comparison to see the differance in fuel being poured VS being sprayed. You trying to downplay that shows you know you lost the arguement.

Even my little salamander that heats my garage sprays kerosene and if it does not ignite the first try the second the stuff lites with a good snap. Its being sprayed by a little tiny pump with a little air blown in.

Thousands of litres yes. But those "reinforced, Self sealing tanks" were tore to shreads against a metal superstructure. It you think those tanks held thier integrity at that speed hitting that building your insane.

That fuel was spread out and ignited within second of the planes hitting the building. The entire plane was disintigrated. Including the fuel tanks. ONLY schrapnel and flames came out the other side of the buildings.

Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Camel

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2009, 09:11:38 PM »
Why don't I see this on mythbusters?

A 12 gauge shotgun shell is a tight fit into the neck of a 350ml glass bottle of coke.  A rat trap can be modified to create a firing pin and to double as a holder for the shotgun shell.  When suspended from a tree, pointing down, and the bottle is filled with kero.........

Do you know where I'm going with this?

The shotty certainly atomises the kero sufficiently to create an interesting phenomena.

Offline fabr

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2009, 09:24:26 PM »
Watch some plane crash experiments guys!!!!!!! Sheesh! Alll the fues does not instantly and completely  ignite and burn.Good Gawd, it's obvious.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Camel

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2009, 09:27:38 PM »
I fly too much.  Too scary watching plane crashes.

The coke bottle exercise is much more fun - but needs additional safety measures...... so don't try this at home!  And definately not in the house!

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2009, 09:30:14 PM »
Watch some plane crash experiments guys!!!!!!! Sheesh! Alll the fues does not instantly and completely  ignite and burn.Good Gawd, it's obvious.
'

Got any particular youtube (or other) links that demonstrate this? I have seen a few crashes filmed but nothing so bad as an impact like this. Be best if you had any of a plane disintegrating when it hits.


This made me think of another funny fact. The "plane" that hit the Pentagon did not burn to aweful long. Wierd.
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2009, 09:37:16 PM »
Monday I got a guy coming to buy $3000.00 worth of RC trucks off me but Tuesday I have to go in for my motorcycle skills test then I will stop at the library (Need the highspeed to watch any kind of videos) and do some searches for airplane crashes and I WILL watch no less then 20. See what I think. I will try to find at least 30 "good ones".

I know the ones I have seen so far have never seemed to burn long on the fuel much. Thats why I asked for any you might know of that show differently.   
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2009, 09:44:17 PM »
Ok now that I thought about the "plane" that hit the Pentagon its bugging me. Why did its fuel not do something similair??

I am asking here. Seems wierd it did not do anything at all like some claim the planes in the towers did. Please enlighten me. 
Your mission isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure its crowded when you get there.

Offline fabr

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2009, 09:47:33 PM »
'

Got any particular youtube (or other) links that demonstrate this? I have seen a few crashes filmed but nothing so bad as an impact like this. Be best if you had any of a plane disintegrating when it hits.


This made me think of another funny fact. The "plane" that hit the Pentagon did not burn to aweful long. Wierd.
Google kis your friend. Plenty to see.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Engineer

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2009, 11:37:50 PM »
Ok now that I thought about the "plane" that hit the Pentagon its bugging me. Why did its fuel not do something similair??

I am asking here. Seems wierd it did not do anything at all like some claim the planes in the towers did. Please enlighten me.

You didn't see the fire at the Pentagon?  What did it not do.



I think your both partially correct on the towers.  When the plane hit, it basically "strained" the plane through the side of the building.  The towers were exoskeleton.  The big fire ball when the plane hit was the fuel that was atomized on impact, and that there was enough oxygen to burn.  I am sure there was plenty of liquid fuel left that soaked up everything on that floor and a few below, which got the fire really going.

Offline Boostinjdm

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Re: You want change? part two
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2009, 11:53:52 PM »
You didn't see the fire at the Pentagon?  What did it not do.



I think your both partially correct on the towers.  When the plane hit, it basically "strained" the plane through the side of the building.  The towers were exoskeleton.  The big fire ball when the plane hit was the fuel that was atomized on impact, and that there was enough oxygen to burn.  I am sure there was plenty of liquid fuel left that soaked up everything on that floor and a few below, which got the fire really going.

Finally a sensible post....
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