Author Topic: Why socialist medicine is not the answer  (Read 18894 times)

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Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2009, 12:25:15 PM »
Trojan,  aa: mm: (ks) I'm so sorry that I never considered the fact that your opinion is only opinion that could possibly be correct. I continue to fail in realizing that due to your extensive research on any subject, that your opinion is not an opinion. It is an unarguable fact and i should be extremely grateful for the opportunity for you to set me onto the right path of enlightenment . It would be nice though if we could just debate the topic without your attacks about my dishonesty,stupidity,foolishness or any other personality defect you think I have and stop trying to bolster your weak view point on this subject by doing so. ;)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:26:51 PM by Masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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Offline Punkur67

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2009, 04:31:36 PM »
Health insurance sucks. Part of my union package forces me to pay over $8 per hr. for ok at best coverage. Cost me $1800 to get steel drilled out of my eye cause the doctor at urgent care was not on my plan?
 
My gf wants to move in with me but she cant cause her meds are over $5k a month and she needs to be living with her parrents and going to school to stay on there insurance. If she moves in she will need to come up with it out of pocket.
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Offline Boostinjdm

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 04:56:19 PM »
BINGO!!!!!! We have a winner. I know 2 people very well that atre perfect examples. One works for me and refuses to receive health insurance. Wanna know why? 4 sepaeate times he has had major health care needs. Last time he racked up obver 200,000 bux in costs. The hospital told him he needed to set up a payment plan.He says,I don't have any more than 50 bux a week I can pay-towards 200K  bill. They tell him that will be OK till thwe end of the year and then they will just write it off and he will be clear. Think about that,do the math. The other guy had a similar thing but worked out that allowed him to pay in one lump sum only 10% against a 150,ooo bux bill  and he is now paid in full. I ,on the other hand with copay insurance would have been required at least 20% of the bill out of my pocket  along with the insurance pay.  The health care system here is not the problem .Its the gonernments will to let the industry self destruct so they can take it over ,and ultimately ruin, our system. Nutz is right.

Fabr,  Did you proof read this before posting?  What it says to me is that you don't want the government controlling health care, but in the same paragraph you blame the government for not controlling health care.  Now you got me confused.
You also state a few things that are horribly wrong with the healthcare system, with examples, and then state "The health care system here is not the problem". ???
This post has been edited due to content.

Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
It's not the health care system. it's the out of control costs that are allowed to escalate out of control with  no government oversight at all. The greed and the waste due to greed and a predatory litigation system we have. Will that go with the gov running the show? If you think so I have some swamp land I wanna show you . Great profit potential. ;) The gov wants the out of control cost escalation to continue so they can take it over. Not to make a more effecient system.  That is not the American way.The place for governmaent in this is,as in all of our society,is to oversee with minimal intrusion. Keeping the playing field level .It is NOT to control or directly run the very systems that operate best  as free enterprises COMPETING in the open market that will bring out the best in us. We must have SOME gov guidelines and oversight but NOT the gov directly running the system.Show me one,just one, government run system in the US that is doing a good job of controlling costs in  ANY way.
 Do we  need the gov to step in and ban the practices such as pre-existing condition exclusion,denial of well baby coverage,non transferrable insurance in the event of employment change etc.,etc.? HELL YES we do .Do we need the gov RUNNING things? I think not. I'm not an all or nothing thinker.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 06:04:40 PM by Masterfabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2009, 06:12:22 PM »
Health insurance sucks. Part of my union package forces me to pay over $8 per hr. for ok at best coverage. Cost me $1800 to get steel drilled out of my eye cause the doctor at urgent care was not on my plan?
 
My gf wants to move in with me but she cant cause her meds are over $5k a month and she needs to be living with her parrents and going to school to stay on there insurance. If she moves in she will need to come up with it out of pocket.
Maybe it's the union that sucks.You work 40 hour weeks paying 8 bux an hour for health care. That's 1360 bux a month for a SINGLE coverage policy? I pay for Blue Cross/Blue Shield full family coverage with nearly no restrictions and a 20% COPAY TO 1000 BUX A YEAR WHEN FULL 100% coverage begins for 780 A MONTH. maybe you need to start attending some of your union meetings and do some complaining.
 Yes I agree totally that the unavailability of coverage at a decent cost and without preexisting condition exclusions should be what the gov SHOULD be doing instead of just wanting to take everything over "for our best good".
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2009, 06:16:47 PM »
Fabr,  Did you proof read this before posting?  What it says to me is that you don't want the government controlling health care, but in the same paragraph you blame the government for not controlling health care.  Now you got me confused.
You also state a few things that are horribly wrong with the healthcare system, with examples, and then state "The health care system here is not the problem". ???
Its the governments will to let the industry self destruct so they can take it over ,and ultimately ruin, our system. DID you not read this sentence?
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2009, 06:21:44 PM »
Just for the record I do NOT think we have the best health care in the world I think we can abd should and will without gov ru(i)ning it. Let the gov do the CORRECT thing and REGULATE it,set guidelines-not conduct it..I personally feel that the FDA is nothing but a roadblock in many instances to our access to new practices that the rest of the world will use years before approval here. That's a perfect example of our gov's ability to effectively serve us ,huh? Oh ,and guess what ? It's the FEDERAL Drug Agency. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Punkur67

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2009, 08:56:34 PM »
Maybe it's the union that sucks.You work 40 hour weeks paying 8 bux an hour for health care. That's 1360 bux a month for a SINGLE coverage policy? I pay for Blue Cross/Blue Shield full family coverage with nearly no restrictions and a 20% COPAY TO 1000 BUX A YEAR WHEN FULL 100% coverage begins for 780 A MONTH. maybe you need to start attending some of your union meetings and do some complaining.
 Yes I agree totally that the unavailability of coverage at a decent cost and without preexisting condition exclusions should be what the gov SHOULD be doing instead of just wanting to take everything over "for our best good".

Good luck with fighting the union on that. They are the insurance carrier. Thats like taking the whole multimillion dollar cookie jar away from them. The price is the same for single or family. There are a few people in my union who are married to female union members and they pay double and get the same coverage, not double coverage. Oh I just checked our package and its only $7 and change. gettin a bargan there. We also pay about $350 a month in dues, but $42hr. on the check makes me shut up quick
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Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2009, 08:58:28 PM »
I don't doubt that 42bux/hr makes it a bit easier to take.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Boostinjdm

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2009, 02:09:12 AM »

Good luck with fighting the union on that. They are the insurance carrier. Thats like taking the whole multimillion dollar cookie jar away from them. The price is the same for single or family. There are a few people in my union who are married to female union members and they pay double and get the same coverage, not double coverage. Oh I just checked our package and its only $7 and change. gettin a bargan there. We also pay about $350 a month in dues, but $42hr. on the check makes me shut up quick

So how does it feel to contribute to the overpricing of american made goods and in effect, the driving force behind outsourcing?
And there's the problem.
I had a nice long post, but I think I'll stop here.  Let's just say I am not a fan of unions...
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Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 02:51:40 AM »
So how does it feel to contribute to the overpricing of american made goods and in effect, the driving force behind outsourcing?
And there's the problem.
I had a nice long post, but I think I'll stop here.  Let's just say I am not a fan of unions...

I have been on BOTH sides of unions. Seen and delt with the issues for years. I DO have to say Boost I would like to know that IF you think that the high wages of American workers makes things overpriced how come all the items that get outsourced to China and elsewhere do not drop in price when they get outsourced??  Seems like the great cheap labor would make for a great cheap price drop but that does not ever seem to happen. So where is all THAT money going?
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Offline Punkur67

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 06:38:52 AM »
So how does it feel to contribute to the overpricing of american made goods and in effect, the driving force behind outsourcing?
And there's the problem.
I had a nice long post, but I think I'll stop here.  Let's just say I am not a fan of unions...

Lets just say you get what you pay for most of the time. We have come in after non union companies and lets just say there standard is scary and illegal. We do it right and do not leave a job till its 100% correct.
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Offline Voodoochikin04

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 08:14:49 AM »
that money lines the pockets of the ceos... why lower the price of your product when people have been paying it for years? now that you can outsorce and get it made cheaper, why would you drop your price.. make more money that way..   thats my opinion of why the price doesnt drop...    i make freaking $10 an hour....  ugh..  42$/hour?????   cant imagine...   yet my boss chargers 60$ an hour for inhouse labor, and 80$ for onsite...  yet 10 goes to me... wtf is wrong with that picture?
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Offline Nutz4sand

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2009, 09:51:39 AM »
that money lines the pockets of the ceos... why lower the price of your product when people have been paying it for years? now that you can outsorce and get it made cheaper, why would you drop your price.. make more money that way..   thats my opinion of why the price doesnt drop...    i make freaking $10 an hour....  ugh..  42$/hour?????   cant imagine...   yet my boss chargers 60$ an hour for inhouse labor, and 80$ for onsite...  yet 10 goes to me... wtf is wrong with that picture?

EEEEEXXXXXXXXAAAAACCCCCTTTTTYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While working for Chrysler for 9 plus years (as Supervision) for what reason I do not know they used to ram down our throats at meetings that the average cost of ALL the union labor to build car was 17% (Yup seventeen percent) of the cost of the car. The other 83% was split between materials and upper management salaries.

I was not supposed to but I saw a document that showed materails ranged from 20 to 22% of the cost.  So basically do nothing, golf playing, taking trips on the company dolalr no good execs were dividing roughly almost 60% of the profits among themselves. (You can check with the shareholders. They were not getting much of that.)  The top guys at the plants I worked in used to joke openly about the systems in place to make it look like materails cost was 50 percent and more so they could manipulate the profits into thier own pockets.

Now I aint saying Unions are perfect. The UAW slit its own throat. Its hard to feel bad for it. They protected complete garbage most of the time and now that garbage will not support them back.

If when the US auto makers were in thier hayday (heydey) the UAW would have allowed them to fire the SOB's who did not come to work or were lazy and did not do thier jobs right the automakers would have hired a new guy the next day who LOVED his new high paying job and made quality people wanted to buy. I bet today would be VERY different for the US carmakers if that was done.

But they protected GARBAGE workers. The good workers saw no reason to do thier work and the garbages and sadely we all suffer. I have seen good workers try to cover two jobs for lengths on end to make a good product because they care. But eventually the wind would move from thier sails and they would say "Screw it" and let it go. And I would not fire the bad apples as supervisor. So I may be the issue right?                          No I tried.

Where I worked the bad apples were nearly ALL on drugs. The Upper management SUPPLIED the drugs to them! (We called it the candy program)
Upper management actually did things to CAUSE more overtime cause the more they "worked" (meaning came to the place and lounged around) The more money they had to buy candy.

Lots of these guys were fork truck drivers (being it required little physical effort) and we processed engine blocks and needed forktrucks to drive in and pull pallets that were full out of the way and put down empty pallets for more blocks. In the cleaning room a good driver could literally do all the work he needed in 10-15 minutes and then take a break for the rest of that half hour then come out and catch up again WITHOUT stopping the lines (Which I had to account for ANY STOPPED time on my downtime)  This one guy would dissappear for 45 minutes. Then show up and cry he needed help!
He NEVER answered his radio to me or the guy in charge of fork trucks.

One day we literally had the line stopped with loaded pallets EVERYWHERE. The whole palnt was breathig down my neck and I had been calling him on the radio for over 45 minutes (The only thing that saved me being non union was the fact that everyone heard me a zillion times. I was also walking all over heck trying to find him in break rooms and hidey holes)  The Union steward and the acting plant management were right there when we found him.

He was sitting inbetween pallets of stacked blocks (stacked two high and taller than this forktruck as we did. But he had emptied out a hole in the middle of these blocks. Put TWO pallets of blocks on the forktruck tines and backed into the hole with the blocks in front of him.  He was surround by tighly stacked engine blocks.

The ONLY reason I found him when I did was he was yelling at his girlfriend on his phone and I heard "talking/yelling engine blocks". Even though the union was there and the upper management was there and the cleaning room and the foundry had stopped he was simply told to go back in and go to work (Not by me I wanted him fired)  I asked why and was told it was just what was going to happen and would be best to drop it. Then was told I NEEDED to account for this downtime by spreading it across other smaller things. Nice eh? 

While he was trying to catch up this mess he rammed two building posts IN SIGHT of upper management and Union stewards and then starteted to yell and cuss at me and threatened to fight me (I am easily twice his size) when I asked to move a particular pallet next. I was later told by the only decent steward we had that this guy was coached by other stewards to start fights with supervisors (when in it deep) so that they could use that to get charges dropped agaisnt him in return for not demanding the supervisor be fired. They actually TOLD him to do this.
 

It gets better. Yah I know this is long but I could tell you about things like this that happened all day.

Due to that fact that he was a POS and I would not let him take 45 minute breaks an hour he complained about me and they transferred him to the Cupola (kupe-o-la) Thats where they melt iron or other such metals in a foundy.

(Side note: The guy they put in my area was FLABBERGASTED. He would cover my area. NEVER left me hanging not once even when he was ill and spending time in the bathroom with the trots) and even would help out in the adjacent area and shoot the shit with the truck drivers there. And he STILL took breaks that were well over twice what the job "allowed".  He was amazed at how little he had to do. He LOVED it. So did all my floor people as he made there jobs go smoothly)

Anyways the wonderful first guy got put on the Cupola. The fork truck driver on that job is truely the least to do. But it IS SUPER important to be done PRONTO! (Can you see the time bomb here?)

The job he had was to empty the slag tubs. There are two. One on top of the other in a rack. They take the top one out and the molten slag (mostly melted sand that turned to cool glass globs and other crap that was mixed in with the melted metal till it hit the separator below the cupola) Anyways they swap the top tub outwhen it gets full. While the are putting a new tub in the top the bottom catches the overflow till the new tub is above it. The top gets changed between five and ten times a night depending on production rates and the amount of crap VS good metal being fed the Cupola.  The bottom gets swapped whenever it nears full so its ready to catch more when the tops being changed.

So one night not three weeks after our little incident with him hiding in the blocks the guy in charge of the Cupola calls him on the radio and tells him the slag tub is full. The guy answers "OK, I'll be right there." He is supposed to check it on his own but does not. At this time he was sitting in the fork truck garage with six other people BSing.  This particular night the Cupola had been down due to a mechanical issue they had juts got fixed and it had run the furnaces low on Iron being down and needed to catch up. During all that downtime the guy never changed the tub...

So a few minutes later the Cupola foreman calls him AGAIN and says This tub is FULL! We NEED you here NOW. The guy again replies, "Be right there" and continues BSing withthe other guys in the truck garage. Five minutes LATER the Foreman calls LOUDLY And says "The TUB IS RUNNING OVER"!!!! and it was nearly five minutes later when the driver finally showed up.

Now the top tub had vastly overfilled. Molten sand still glowing red (well over 3000 degrees. 3600 is common) was running down the back side of the tube and onto the floor and under bottom tub. The pool of glowing molten lava/sand had was two to three feet past the bottom tub. The guy drives his fork truck into this to try to get the top tub out......................

The Truck had oil leaking from the front hydraulics and had rubber tires. The whole front of the thing eruppted in flames. Being he had only dared to go a little ways in the forks were barly halfway under the tub anyways. The intense flames burned through the lift cylinder lines very quickly (in seconds) and the tub which he had raised over a foot easy dropped and fell over sideways to a 45 degree angle in the rack. In doing so it spilled about 1/3rd of its still molten contents agasit the back concrete wall which then gushed under the bottom tub and the forktruck PAST its rear tires. Now the back of it catches fire.  (I wished to hell I had a camera for all of this. Trueley I do)

At this point he decides to give up the ship. He kicks out the rear window of the forktruck. Climbs out onto the counterweight and jumps for all he is worth (which aint much) to clear the molten slag below him. He is in such haste he nearly slips and he literally missed stepping in 2-3 inchs of moving slag by less than the length of his foot. Another couple seconds and he would not have been able too. 

Now once this clusterfrack was noticed to be happening they have started to shut the cupola down. The slag pouring down from the separator stops after a bit and another truck driver from another part of the plant is brought in with the BIGGEST forktruck. Its massive in size and has super long huge tines and it can barely manuever in there but the driver is good and he actually lifts the now totally burned up fork truck out of the slag and moves it then while people spray the fork truck tires with fire extinguishers. He then uses that monster to somehow pry up the tipped molten tub of slag and get it out of there.

Being as stated above that we were low on iron and the cupola was trying to catch up then had to be shut down due to this we lost two hours of production (Due to running out of iron) and one forktruck.

The cost? The total for this downtime was just over $90,000.00. All beacuse he did not do his job nor come when CALLED. But instead sat talking about crap with buddies.

He was fired. Got called back three weeks later. Got PAID for the time out of the plant. Got NO letter in his envelope.

He DID loose his fork truck driving license though and had to do other work.

Glad he learned his lesson. 

Thats a example of a bad union and give them there bad rep. Sadely it is all to common. But like most things a few bad apples ruin the whole bushel.

If those people were allowed to be delt with then we would be walking a quite different path in the USA today I bet.

Sorry for the book. It was still the condensed version. 

       
 

 
 
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Online fabr

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Re: Why socialist medicine is not the answer
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2009, 10:04:48 AM »
EXCELLENT ,I could not think of a better way to say what I feel.You have hit the nail perfectly square on the head. Great write!
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

 

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