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Automotive Powered Off Road AKA Ecotech Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks Etc Etc => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:42:25 PM

Title: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:42:25 PM
Ok maybe antifreeze. First day @ LS and I take blue buggy out for a spin. No issues. Cool! Next out is the quads,no issues. Cool! Jumo in new buggy,make a short trip to cowboy camp and back . No problems,rides the whoops at about 70 like driving down the highway. Cool. Cool. I pull plugs to check heat range/timing etc. All looks good. A bit rich but that will be dealt with with some quality time on the laptop and logging. ran pretty well actually. A couple hours later I fire it up to pull alongside trailer for the night. Big plume of antifreeze steam from right bank. Well,shit. The antifreeze is just dumping into #4 cylinder. Only thing I have ever seen dump that much water in a cylinder was welllllll,not good. I figure I blew the hell out of a head gasket even though this is the same engine I drag raced to death with no issues. WTH??? Load the shit up and come home Wednesday so I can get a jump on teardown.

Mind you,it is no easy task to pull the engine from this beast. Not looking forward to tearing down the engine either as it takes about 8 hours to do so. This isn't a garden variety SBC , takes 12+ hours to assemble. No joke. Anyway,I get it torn down to find---------------nothing obvious. Head/cylinder/gasket =perfect. The damn water had to come from somewhere. I'll pressure test head tomorrow.

A few pics to see what I saw. This is a bit baffling for sure at this point. Absolutely no obvious visible signs.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:46:46 PM
OH and I usually have bad luck that forestalls even worse bad luck. This was true this time ,again. If it wasn't for the water,I would not have found the worse issue in another cylinder. Apparently the JE pistons have the top ring groove too close to the intake valve relief. ANother issue found was the screens in the lifter valley that apparently had the epoxy go to hell. All in all,A water leak that can't be found at this point was a very good bit of good luck. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:49:18 PM
Screens as found unattached in lifter valley. A shot of where they should have been.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:52:42 PM
All springs must be remover before heads can be removed. A couple pics ,hard to see, but show why it takes so long to assemble/reassemble heads onto this engine.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:56:19 PM
Cylinder 4
Head gasket,block side.
Gead gasket , head side.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 09:59:59 PM
And THEN,this little bit of sunshine. JE Pistons place the top ring groove a bit too close to the intake valve relief. Oh well,As I said,even with bad luck I have hidden good luck-usually. This could have/would have been a LOT worse soon. Nothing a few $$$$$$ won't fix.  rofl
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 10:32:20 PM
pics of why valve springs must come off before head removal.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 09, 2017, 07:48:20 AM
Sum Bitch!  The fix, throw more money! LOL Are those old pistons, or new?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 07:57:45 AM
New.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 09, 2017, 10:00:29 AM
Still weird where the water was coming from?  Was piston issue same side as steam, matbe a cracked in head.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 12:03:18 PM
Adjacent cylinder. As much water as there was getting in as fast as it was,I doubt a cracked head. A casting inclusion broke out or something maybe .There was also no hits to the head from the piece that is missing. The missing piece fortunately exited immediately from the combustion chamber. The pieces ready to let go on each side of it might have beat things up some before exiting though.Looking closely at the pics shows the crack at each end of missing piece.It was imminent disaster just seconds away.  Pressure test tonight will determine if head is at fault. There are no obvious issues found at this point visually.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 12:36:43 PM
From first start up I had a weird black residue settle out of the engine oil after draining to the bottom of the drain pan. I'd never seen exactly the same looking residue ever before but chalked it up to the use of a "racing" oil filter. Racing means a pretty low efficiency filter media that allows much larger particles through. Anytime a dry sump is used and is a full flow through oil system with no bypass these types of filters are used. The residue apparently is/was some of that 15 or so years old epoxy holding the valley screens in place that was breaking down,going through oil pump and being ground into a powder that settles out in the oil tank as a black sludge.  Engine was coming apart for inspection this winter regardless but not this soon. Water is apparently my friend.It prevented total disaster happening.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 09, 2017, 12:41:45 PM
well only so many places can come from.......but that piston could`ve been horrible to that block. hate to say the coolant leak is a good thing but kind of is in this case. i assume you have used je pistons before and like them?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 12:51:55 PM
I've not used anything but JE in my personal engines for 30+ years. Never an issue till now. I'll get it out and call JE. Never know,maybe they'll agree the valve reliefs are too close to the ring groove. There is only about .030 from back wall of groove to the valve relief. I'll have the new pistons made with the ring package about .050 lower from the crown.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 12:54:34 PM
Yup,only 3 places on this engine for water to come from,head/gasket/block. There is no water circulated through intake manifold on these engines.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 09, 2017, 01:48:25 PM
figured you liked je pistons but had to ask. your pressure test will find it
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 02:21:47 PM
yup
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 06:49:42 PM
Found it. Whoever ported these heads went too far in the exhaust port in the area of the guide. Pinhole about .030 right into a water passage. If it were on the dragster it would get Devconned and called good. Not for this usage though.Effer obviously didn't understand that that area is almost a dead zone that doesn't need anything other than a smoothing. Oh well,new  bare castings with guides are only $2400. Add pistons at around a grand and this little bit of experience will run around $4K.   5: 5: 1:  Everything has a silver lining though, a few minutes more it would have been a lot more $$$$. BTDT too many times to count.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 09:19:46 PM
Amazing what a little hole can cost............ or I've drilled wells for less than finding this water cost.......................or that little thing costs HOW MUCH?.................... or fill in any sarcastic comment feels appropriate.   LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 10, 2017, 07:14:10 AM
Yah could weld it, bout as thin as alum foil there! LOL
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 08:01:03 AM
I'll probably send both heads off to Brodix for sonic thickness probing of all ports to see if they should be welded or scrapped for new castings.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on October 10, 2017, 08:07:40 AM
nice find. that could of went real bad real fast.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 08:15:02 AM
how old are the heads? that hole is plenty large enough under pressure  ;)  these issues always sucks!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 09:12:05 AM
nice find. that could of went real bad real fast.
A few more minutes was all it had left at that point. The pinhole thing happens with ported heads. No casting is ever perfect especially in the water jackets. Port work is always a leap of faith. The hole could due to overall lack of port wall thickness in the area or just be from an errant grain of sand when cast. Brodix will have the right answer for me but I'm leaning towards new castings with less port work done. The heads were on an alky outlaw sprint car in their former life. I bought them used. Brodix does basic hand port work on these heads at their factory. They are not sold in an as cast state. I don't  know if more port work had been done to them. Ironically,I had the same issue except in an intake port on my other set of radically ported heads on dragster. These heads flow approx. 400cfm intake/240cfm exhaust right out of the box with well over 425cfm intake/275cfm exhaust fully ported. There are only a few SBC heads that flow even close to those numbers. They make serious HP.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 09:23:26 AM
those impressive number for sure i was just wondering if these were the same heads you had used on the motor in the past w\o issue. i know that motor has sat a while.  i know! that motor makes some damn good bottom end tq for grunting when needed. so before that little mis hap how was it running on the sand?  the pin hole sucks but the pistons are pretty concerning. are those je pistons forged pistons?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 09:29:32 AM
how old are the heads? that hole is plenty large enough under pressure  ;)  these issues always sucks!
Heads are likely 10 years or more old. I cannot blame former owner for selling a known bad set.. I don't believe he knew of this  since they have held water and been brought to operating temps many times since .
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 10:14:12 AM
yes,forged. I agree the pistons are more of a concern. I'll have JE place the ring package further from the top on replacements.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 10:52:53 AM
just wondered if you had been running them or purchased for this build.        the je pistons....are they 2618 or 4032 alloy?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 11:19:08 AM
 THese pistons and heads are not used for anything other than maximum effort engines. SFAIK there are no options for the slugs concerning alloy unless something changed in the last couple years.I doubt anything has changed though.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fastcorvairs on October 10, 2017, 11:37:35 AM
Looks like they made a bad try at installing the valve guide sleeves.   Busted out the boss when bored and drove in the bronze sleeve.  That thin sleeve should have been blended back to the boss area.  Sleeves are not made to run out in the open. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 01:03:45 PM
I agree but I would not have trimmed the guide back. I would have left the guide untouched though. The guides are pretty short as it is.Pretty sure the guides were replaced at some point incorrectly. Looks like they either broke off the boss driving them out or in. Either way,I always drill out most of the guide to relieve the press fit and then easily drive out the thin shell. I heat head and dry ice guide to install. I was taught that method for aluminum heads at the Perfect Circle machinists school a long time ago. Most shops don't care enough to do it that way,it's just faster to drive them in and out and all they care about is wham bam-thank ya man.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 01, 2018, 10:59:27 PM
WOOHOO!!!!!!! I found a virgin , new,untouched set of these heads! Man,things are starting to go in the right direction to solve a lot of my needs.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 02, 2018, 12:33:20 AM
first the toter now the heads.....carl luck rubbed off on you??  ;D rofl   nice find though and hope this gets it back together faster!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 02, 2018, 08:02:26 AM
Ya things are starting to fall in place. Brodix is still dragging their feet repairing my castings. These new ,untouched castings will be much more reliable since some "porter" hasn't used "the more metal removed the better"porting philosophy on them.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 02, 2018, 10:27:15 AM
ya know .....i know what your saying! for a while now ever time i think i found a good deal on a used performance part i get bit in the back side! it's because my idea of what a " good part " is and someone else's just seems to be planets apart! so new/unmolested  ( when possible) is always the best way to go.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 02, 2018, 12:18:51 PM
I called the guy this morning and someone from Canada got in line in front of me. He's been screwing around trying to get paid though for a couple weeks. I offered to buy and immediately paypal him the money but he's going t give the other party till end of day. I hope I get these snagged. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 03, 2018, 02:46:57 PM
SUCCESS!!!!!!!! The Canadian shit in his own nest.   :swig: :swig: :e bb:
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 03, 2018, 04:18:11 PM
good to hear cause i really want a ride in this new rail come april!!!! your on a roll with great finds! can you find me a megasand 2d trans?? lol
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 03, 2018, 04:40:35 PM
Thanks and you will. As for the trans I'll look  but no guarantees! Lol!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 04, 2018, 10:34:04 AM
Thanks and you will. As for the trans I'll look  but no guarantees! Lol!!

oh come on your on a role! ;D ;)
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 04, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
do you still have a flow bench? i assume your going to do the port work or are you going to do anything to these new unmolested heads?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 04, 2018, 11:13:38 AM
I sold my bench a couple years ago. I have a buddy with a fully automated Superflow though about 2 miles away that will let me use it. That said,these heads flow extremely well as cast with a good valve seat/face combination. Since I'm not using this as a race motor I'm just going to run them unmolested to get the best durability/reliability . Brodix didn't put much meat in the bowl/throat area and truthfully most people screw up by trying to do anything there. The walls are just too thin since the bowl/throat is very well designed to start with. The as cast surface should help with atomizing alky also.It's one of those bigger is better things that isn't true. The heads intakes as cast will flow in the area of 400cfm@ 10 inches. That makes a lot of HP right out of the box.I will have to port match and blend the runners to the intake though. No biggie.

On a side note,I get these new castings bought yesterday and Brodix calls up this morning saying my heads are done. 5: :m I may just put them together and sell them or I might put them on the shelf as WTF spares. I dunno. Probably should keep them just in case.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Yummi on January 04, 2018, 12:51:14 PM
Keep em - dont need em.  Sell them - you do. 

Don't blame me.  Murphy.  Damn Murphy get you every time.   
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 04, 2018, 01:22:55 PM
I agree.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 10, 2018, 10:29:26 PM
WOW!!!! Today my repaired Brodix heads show up,my new Brodix castings show up and my toter drive train donor shows up. Talk about everything all coming together at once!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on January 11, 2018, 05:27:12 AM
Your to do list sounds longer than mine!  And I added more. But will hopefully make build easier. I need to update thread.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 11, 2018, 08:09:04 AM
Top of the list is getting buggy back together. Toter work will wait till after spring LS trip as I get drive train out of donor,blast and paint all the brackets and basically make all look pretty till then. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 11, 2018, 08:57:01 AM
wow it was like 3 Christmas's all in 1 day for you!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 11, 2018, 11:54:09 AM
yup!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on January 11, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
You should have bought a lottery ticket, with the way your day was going. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 11, 2018, 02:04:06 PM
good point  ;)