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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:42:25 PM

Title: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:42:25 PM
Ok maybe antifreeze. First day @ LS and I take blue buggy out for a spin. No issues. Cool! Next out is the quads,no issues. Cool! Jumo in new buggy,make a short trip to cowboy camp and back . No problems,rides the whoops at about 70 like driving down the highway. Cool. Cool. I pull plugs to check heat range/timing etc. All looks good. A bit rich but that will be dealt with with some quality time on the laptop and logging. ran pretty well actually. A couple hours later I fire it up to pull alongside trailer for the night. Big plume of antifreeze steam from right bank. Well,shit. The antifreeze is just dumping into #4 cylinder. Only thing I have ever seen dump that much water in a cylinder was welllllll,not good. I figure I blew the hell out of a head gasket even though this is the same engine I drag raced to death with no issues. WTH??? Load the shit up and come home Wednesday so I can get a jump on teardown.

Mind you,it is no easy task to pull the engine from this beast. Not looking forward to tearing down the engine either as it takes about 8 hours to do so. This isn't a garden variety SBC , takes 12+ hours to assemble. No joke. Anyway,I get it torn down to find---------------nothing obvious. Head/cylinder/gasket =perfect. The damn water had to come from somewhere. I'll pressure test head tomorrow.

A few pics to see what I saw. This is a bit baffling for sure at this point. Absolutely no obvious visible signs.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:46:46 PM
OH and I usually have bad luck that forestalls even worse bad luck. This was true this time ,again. If it wasn't for the water,I would not have found the worse issue in another cylinder. Apparently the JE pistons have the top ring groove too close to the intake valve relief. ANother issue found was the screens in the lifter valley that apparently had the epoxy go to hell. All in all,A water leak that can't be found at this point was a very good bit of good luck. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:49:18 PM
Screens as found unattached in lifter valley. A shot of where they should have been.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:52:42 PM
All springs must be remover before heads can be removed. A couple pics ,hard to see, but show why it takes so long to assemble/reassemble heads onto this engine.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:56:19 PM
Cylinder 4
Head gasket,block side.
Gead gasket , head side.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 07:59:59 PM
And THEN,this little bit of sunshine. JE Pistons place the top ring groove a bit too close to the intake valve relief. Oh well,As I said,even with bad luck I have hidden good luck-usually. This could have/would have been a LOT worse soon. Nothing a few $$$$$$ won't fix.  rofl
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 08, 2017, 08:32:20 PM
pics of why valve springs must come off before head removal.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 09, 2017, 05:48:20 AM
Sum Bitch!  The fix, throw more money! LOL Are those old pistons, or new?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 05:57:45 AM
New.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 09, 2017, 08:00:29 AM
Still weird where the water was coming from?  Was piston issue same side as steam, matbe a cracked in head.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
Adjacent cylinder. As much water as there was getting in as fast as it was,I doubt a cracked head. A casting inclusion broke out or something maybe .There was also no hits to the head from the piece that is missing. The missing piece fortunately exited immediately from the combustion chamber. The pieces ready to let go on each side of it might have beat things up some before exiting though.Looking closely at the pics shows the crack at each end of missing piece.It was imminent disaster just seconds away.  Pressure test tonight will determine if head is at fault. There are no obvious issues found at this point visually.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 10:36:43 AM
From first start up I had a weird black residue settle out of the engine oil after draining to the bottom of the drain pan. I'd never seen exactly the same looking residue ever before but chalked it up to the use of a "racing" oil filter. Racing means a pretty low efficiency filter media that allows much larger particles through. Anytime a dry sump is used and is a full flow through oil system with no bypass these types of filters are used. The residue apparently is/was some of that 15 or so years old epoxy holding the valley screens in place that was breaking down,going through oil pump and being ground into a powder that settles out in the oil tank as a black sludge.  Engine was coming apart for inspection this winter regardless but not this soon. Water is apparently my friend.It prevented total disaster happening.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 09, 2017, 10:41:45 AM
well only so many places can come from.......but that piston could`ve been horrible to that block. hate to say the coolant leak is a good thing but kind of is in this case. i assume you have used je pistons before and like them?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 10:51:55 AM
I've not used anything but JE in my personal engines for 30+ years. Never an issue till now. I'll get it out and call JE. Never know,maybe they'll agree the valve reliefs are too close to the ring groove. There is only about .030 from back wall of groove to the valve relief. I'll have the new pistons made with the ring package about .050 lower from the crown.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 10:54:34 AM
Yup,only 3 places on this engine for water to come from,head/gasket/block. There is no water circulated through intake manifold on these engines.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 09, 2017, 11:48:25 AM
figured you liked je pistons but had to ask. your pressure test will find it
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 12:21:47 PM
yup
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 04:49:42 PM
Found it. Whoever ported these heads went too far in the exhaust port in the area of the guide. Pinhole about .030 right into a water passage. If it were on the dragster it would get Devconned and called good. Not for this usage though.Effer obviously didn't understand that that area is almost a dead zone that doesn't need anything other than a smoothing. Oh well,new  bare castings with guides are only $2400. Add pistons at around a grand and this little bit of experience will run around $4K.   5: 5: 1:  Everything has a silver lining though, a few minutes more it would have been a lot more $$$$. BTDT too many times to count.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 09, 2017, 07:19:46 PM
Amazing what a little hole can cost............ or I've drilled wells for less than finding this water cost.......................or that little thing costs HOW MUCH?.................... or fill in any sarcastic comment feels appropriate.   LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on October 10, 2017, 05:14:10 AM
Yah could weld it, bout as thin as alum foil there! LOL
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 06:01:03 AM
I'll probably send both heads off to Brodix for sonic thickness probing of all ports to see if they should be welded or scrapped for new castings.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on October 10, 2017, 06:07:40 AM
nice find. that could of went real bad real fast.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 06:15:02 AM
how old are the heads? that hole is plenty large enough under pressure  ;)  these issues always sucks!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 07:12:05 AM
nice find. that could of went real bad real fast.
A few more minutes was all it had left at that point. The pinhole thing happens with ported heads. No casting is ever perfect especially in the water jackets. Port work is always a leap of faith. The hole could due to overall lack of port wall thickness in the area or just be from an errant grain of sand when cast. Brodix will have the right answer for me but I'm leaning towards new castings with less port work done. The heads were on an alky outlaw sprint car in their former life. I bought them used. Brodix does basic hand port work on these heads at their factory. They are not sold in an as cast state. I don't  know if more port work had been done to them. Ironically,I had the same issue except in an intake port on my other set of radically ported heads on dragster. These heads flow approx. 400cfm intake/240cfm exhaust right out of the box with well over 425cfm intake/275cfm exhaust fully ported. There are only a few SBC heads that flow even close to those numbers. They make serious HP.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 07:23:26 AM
those impressive number for sure i was just wondering if these were the same heads you had used on the motor in the past w\o issue. i know that motor has sat a while.  i know! that motor makes some damn good bottom end tq for grunting when needed. so before that little mis hap how was it running on the sand?  the pin hole sucks but the pistons are pretty concerning. are those je pistons forged pistons?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 07:29:32 AM
how old are the heads? that hole is plenty large enough under pressure  ;)  these issues always sucks!
Heads are likely 10 years or more old. I cannot blame former owner for selling a known bad set.. I don't believe he knew of this  since they have held water and been brought to operating temps many times since .
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 08:14:12 AM
yes,forged. I agree the pistons are more of a concern. I'll have JE place the ring package further from the top on replacements.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2017, 08:52:53 AM
just wondered if you had been running them or purchased for this build.        the je pistons....are they 2618 or 4032 alloy?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 09:19:08 AM
 THese pistons and heads are not used for anything other than maximum effort engines. SFAIK there are no options for the slugs concerning alloy unless something changed in the last couple years.I doubt anything has changed though.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fastcorvairs on October 10, 2017, 09:37:35 AM
Looks like they made a bad try at installing the valve guide sleeves.   Busted out the boss when bored and drove in the bronze sleeve.  That thin sleeve should have been blended back to the boss area.  Sleeves are not made to run out in the open. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on October 10, 2017, 11:03:45 AM
I agree but I would not have trimmed the guide back. I would have left the guide untouched though. The guides are pretty short as it is.Pretty sure the guides were replaced at some point incorrectly. Looks like they either broke off the boss driving them out or in. Either way,I always drill out most of the guide to relieve the press fit and then easily drive out the thin shell. I heat head and dry ice guide to install. I was taught that method for aluminum heads at the Perfect Circle machinists school a long time ago. Most shops don't care enough to do it that way,it's just faster to drive them in and out and all they care about is wham bam-thank ya man.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 01, 2018, 08:59:27 PM
WOOHOO!!!!!!! I found a virgin , new,untouched set of these heads! Man,things are starting to go in the right direction to solve a lot of my needs.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 01, 2018, 10:33:20 PM
first the toter now the heads.....carl luck rubbed off on you??  ;D rofl   nice find though and hope this gets it back together faster!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 02, 2018, 06:02:26 AM
Ya things are starting to fall in place. Brodix is still dragging their feet repairing my castings. These new ,untouched castings will be much more reliable since some "porter" hasn't used "the more metal removed the better"porting philosophy on them.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 02, 2018, 08:27:15 AM
ya know .....i know what your saying! for a while now ever time i think i found a good deal on a used performance part i get bit in the back side! it's because my idea of what a " good part " is and someone else's just seems to be planets apart! so new/unmolested  ( when possible) is always the best way to go.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 02, 2018, 10:18:51 AM
I called the guy this morning and someone from Canada got in line in front of me. He's been screwing around trying to get paid though for a couple weeks. I offered to buy and immediately paypal him the money but he's going t give the other party till end of day. I hope I get these snagged. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 03, 2018, 12:46:57 PM
SUCCESS!!!!!!!! The Canadian shit in his own nest.   :swig: :swig: :e bb:
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 03, 2018, 02:18:11 PM
good to hear cause i really want a ride in this new rail come april!!!! your on a roll with great finds! can you find me a megasand 2d trans?? lol
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 03, 2018, 02:40:35 PM
Thanks and you will. As for the trans I'll look  but no guarantees! Lol!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 04, 2018, 08:34:04 AM
Thanks and you will. As for the trans I'll look  but no guarantees! Lol!!

oh come on your on a role! ;D ;)
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 04, 2018, 08:34:51 AM
do you still have a flow bench? i assume your going to do the port work or are you going to do anything to these new unmolested heads?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 04, 2018, 09:13:38 AM
I sold my bench a couple years ago. I have a buddy with a fully automated Superflow though about 2 miles away that will let me use it. That said,these heads flow extremely well as cast with a good valve seat/face combination. Since I'm not using this as a race motor I'm just going to run them unmolested to get the best durability/reliability . Brodix didn't put much meat in the bowl/throat area and truthfully most people screw up by trying to do anything there. The walls are just too thin since the bowl/throat is very well designed to start with. The as cast surface should help with atomizing alky also.It's one of those bigger is better things that isn't true. The heads intakes as cast will flow in the area of 400cfm@ 10 inches. That makes a lot of HP right out of the box.I will have to port match and blend the runners to the intake though. No biggie.

On a side note,I get these new castings bought yesterday and Brodix calls up this morning saying my heads are done. 5: :m I may just put them together and sell them or I might put them on the shelf as WTF spares. I dunno. Probably should keep them just in case.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Yummi on January 04, 2018, 10:51:14 AM
Keep em - dont need em.  Sell them - you do. 

Don't blame me.  Murphy.  Damn Murphy get you every time.   
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 04, 2018, 11:22:55 AM
I agree.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 10, 2018, 08:29:26 PM
WOW!!!! Today my repaired Brodix heads show up,my new Brodix castings show up and my toter drive train donor shows up. Talk about everything all coming together at once!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on January 11, 2018, 03:27:12 AM
Your to do list sounds longer than mine!  And I added more. But will hopefully make build easier. I need to update thread.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 11, 2018, 06:09:04 AM
Top of the list is getting buggy back together. Toter work will wait till after spring LS trip as I get drive train out of donor,blast and paint all the brackets and basically make all look pretty till then. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 11, 2018, 06:57:01 AM
wow it was like 3 Christmas's all in 1 day for you!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 11, 2018, 09:54:09 AM
yup!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on January 11, 2018, 11:44:55 AM
You should have bought a lottery ticket, with the way your day was going. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 11, 2018, 12:04:06 PM
good point  ;)
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on January 27, 2018, 12:13:16 PM
I had forgotten this thread. I'm thinking it is relevant to my problem now. Piston is off to JE (ya,been dragging my feet) for them to give me their opinion of what happened. Hope to have an answer in the next couple weeks and new pistons by end of Feb.
  This shortish description of detonation and pre-ignition and mega knock have my attention. Can't wait till I hear from JE.
Pre-ignition

Pre-ignition (or preignition) in a spark-ignition engine is a technically different phenomenon from engine knocking, and describes the event wherein the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is initiated by an ignition source other than the spark, such as hot spots in the combustion chamber, a spark plug that runs too hot for the application, or carbonaceous deposits in the combustion chamber heated to incandescence by previous engine combustion events.

The phenomenon is also referred to as 'after-run', or 'run-on' or sometimes dieseling, when it causes the engine to carry on running after the ignition is shut off. This effect is more readily achieved on carbureted gasoline engines, because the fuel supply to the carburetor is typically regulated by a passive mechanical float valve and fuel delivery can feasibly continue until fuel line pressure has been relieved, provided the fuel can be somehow drawn past the throttle plate. The occurrence is rare in modern engines with throttle-body or electronic fuel injection, because the injectors will not be permitted to continue delivering fuel after the engine is shut off, and any occurrence may indicate the presence of a leaking (failed) injector.[3]

In the case of highly supercharged or high compression multi-cylinder engines particularly ones that use methanol (or other fuels prone to pre-ignition) pre-ignition can quickly melt or burn pistons since the power generated by other still functioning pistons will force the overheated ones along no matter how early the mix pre-ignites. Many engines have suffered such failure where improper fuel delivery is present. Often one injector may clog while the others carry on normally allowing mild detonation in one cylinder that leads to serious detonation, then pre-ignition.[4]

The challenges associated with pre-ignition have increased in recent years with the development of highly supercharged and "downspeeded" spark ignition engines. The reduced engine speeds allow more time for autoignition chemistry to complete thus promoting the possibility of pre-ignition and so called "mega-knock". Under these circumstances, there is still significant debate as to the sources of the pre-ignition event.[5]

"Pre-ignition and engine knock both sharply increase combustion chamber temperatures. Consequently, either effect increases the likelihood of the other effect occurring, and both can produce similar effects from the operator's perspective, such as rough engine operation or loss of performance due to operational intervention by a powertrain-management computer. For reasons like these, a person not familiarized with the distinction might describe one by the name of the other. Given proper combustion chamber design, pre-ignition can generally be eliminated by proper spark plug selection, proper fuel/air mixture adjustment, and periodic cleaning of the combustion chambers."


"Detonation induced pre-ignition

Because of the way detonation breaks down the boundary layer of protective gas surrounding components in the cylinder, such as the spark plug electrode, these components can start to get very hot over sustained periods of detonation and glow. Eventually this can lead to the far more catastrophic Pre-Ignition as described above.

While it is not uncommon for an automobile engine to continue on for thousands of miles with mild detonation, preignition can destroy an engine in just a few strokes of the piston."


You never got to preignition IMO. Ring land broke first. Lucky guy!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on January 28, 2018, 08:04:57 AM
i asked once if pre det may have caused that. of course you can adjust all that with your ecu . no matter what, that leak in the head was causing issues and lucky you caught it when you did.  all is good as you are fixing so we can all get rides in april!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;)
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2018, 12:28:29 PM
Wonders of wonders!!!!? JE is making me a new set of pistons for..............,FREE !!?!!?!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2018, 01:56:56 PM
on one hand thats fantastic but on the other.....your changing pistons. atleast the new set should be better!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on March 07, 2018, 03:26:08 PM
Any reason given why it failed????
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2018, 05:38:58 PM
Yes,they said I was correct in thinking the lateral gas ports were indexed wrong and either were directly responsible or significantly added to the issue. They said the tune had nothing to do with the problem.Neither was detonation or pre-ignition.  They also want  me to change the ring package to thinner rings to add material in the intake valve relief to top ring area. Both of which I felt was needed before they told me their determination. I cannot be happier in how this is turning out even though it has cost several $$$$$$. The custom pistons by themselves would be over $1200 bux. IMO,JE Pistons really stepped up to this one.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 07, 2018, 07:03:02 PM
Yes,they said I was correct in thinking the lateral gas ports were indexed wrong and either were directly responsible or significantly added to the issue. They said the tune had nothing to do with the problem.Neither was detonation or pre-ignition.  They also want  me to change the ring package to thinner rings to add material in the intake valve relief to top ring area. Both of which I felt was needed before they told me their determination. I cannot be happier in how this is turning out even though it has cost several $$$$$$. The custom pistons by themselves would be over $1200 bux. IMO,JE Pistons really stepped up to this one.

good to hear!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 07, 2018, 07:18:11 PM
In 40 years of building engines and racing the hell out of my stuff I have had 3 times that manufacturers have stepped up and admitted their responsibility . There's a reason they are still successful.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on March 08, 2018, 06:46:22 AM
Wow, it not often you get that kind of service these day. nice to see someone still stands by there Name.  :s :s
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 08, 2018, 09:42:00 AM

IT IS A RARITY FOR SURE.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 08, 2018, 01:45:12 PM
so how is it looking to have this rail done in time to make a surprise appearence  at LS while were there????  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 08, 2018, 04:58:58 PM
I should have pistons in no more than 2 weeks. That gives me a month to assemble and install. Barring any issues I should have at least 2 weeks to spare. I have been doing all the preliminary stuff. I have heads assembled,ready to go. I am today honing block .005 over for new pistons. Crank is polished,ready to install.Immediately after long block assembly I will determine push rod lengths and order them from Trend. Trend makes the ,IMO,best rods out there. Most available in .025 increments. Exact pushrod lengths to achieve correct pushrod geometry is essential to a happy upper end.  In other words,I'm just waiting on pistons to begin assembly and yes,it will be with me. Will need to do some easy runs ,data log and do some tuning while there so I may or may not be running the shit out of it.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 08, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
 well then theres a damn good chanceq
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 08, 2018, 07:31:52 PM
Wellllll,when you have an automotive machine shop just sitting in your shop........................ ;) ;) ;D ;D :nw. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 08, 2018, 08:18:52 PM
that and the experiance! lol
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 08, 2018, 08:54:30 PM
Well,ya,that too.  :m

 The thing about it is that I haven't used the machines for the last 5 years. I sold my seat and guide machine and have to do all head machining on the bridgeport. That slows down things but does equal or better work. Just more time consuming setting up operations.

 Parts washer burner went out and had to fix that issue. Rollover fixture in hone tank broke and had to fix that. bs1 I've honed hundreds and hundreds of cylinders in that thing and it HAS to have an issue when all I need to do is hone another 8 cylinders?  Oh well rebuild better than before is my motto. Done. Happy as hell with the improvement.

Air hoist had a seal die,had to rebuild that effer. DAMN,is everything going to get rebuilt and I have a good as new auto machine shop again?

I might just have to take up cylinder head work again since my buddy that does ALL the hi perf/race stuff in this area is moving to Arkansas soon. I did enjoy the head development work when I was doing it. Hmmmm,just heads and NO block work. I hate boring and honing the damn things. No profit and the work sux-too time consuming. WAIT!,I guess I could just set up the CNC for boring the things. Hmmmmm.................. Gotta get this  and a couple other projects out of the way and this could be a retirement thing.   Hmmmmmm.......................

Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on March 09, 2018, 09:45:37 AM
Really hope it gets done, haven't got to see it in person.  If it can, you can do it.  Just play hookie from work.  :m
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 10:15:29 AM
Really hope it gets done, haven't got to see it in person.  If it can, you can do it.  Just play hookie from work.  :m
I don't play hookie. No need,I just come and go as I please anymore. I'm usually gone about 11:00. I don't do much of anything anyhow other than oversee stuff and PR a lot. I got people to do the work.........................  :m ;D ;D

That's not to say I have a lot of spare time though. My days still end around 8:00. Gotta have reasons to get up every morning.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 10:37:25 AM
i can vouch that he leaves by 11 am or sooner  ;D ;) rofl rofl i've tried to call and always get ....he left already try him on his cell or i'm just being told that  rofl rofl
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 11:01:44 AM
yet,here I sit,still in the office. eff this, I'M GONE!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on March 09, 2018, 11:50:51 AM
 :ftpbs 
 LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 12:15:15 PM
carl....where are all your update pics and info!??! :D
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 06:57:48 PM
 LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO

Check this shit out!!! I didn't pose my question to enginelabs but yet there it is!!! I guess JE thought it a good idea to point out to everyone INCLUDING their own people that a gas port does NOT belong where they put mine.  :m
 AND it is the first question answered. They must have felt like asses when they saw the piston I sent in. I knew I was right!  rofl

Here's a link to engine labs article and a copy of "my" question.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/pistons/answers-david-fussner-je-pistons-drops-details-pistons/

 From enginelabs :
1) Where should gas ports be located around the piston or more importantly,where should a gas port NOT be located to not impact the pistons top ring land integrity or the pistons stability in the bore?

Wes Freedle

David Fussner: Drag racers tend to prefer top gas ports, while lateral gas ports are preferred on engines that experience extended run times that could clog top gas ports. Top gas ports and lateral gas ports are sometimes used together. As far as strength, I would not suggest placing a top gas port on a piston except through the top land, and not into a valve pocket that extends to the edge of the piston dome. The gas port, whether located in the top or laterally from the side, should not intersect the root of the ring groove, and the hole should have .005-inch minimum clearance from the root of the ring groove in either case.

In the quest for low blowby, one important point that is sometimes not considered is the significant role the lower side surface of the ring and the lower flank of the ring groove play in sealing. This interface can be greatly improved by lapping the side faces of the top ring. Our tests have repeatedly shown blow-by reductions of 35-percent or more. JE can provide this lapping procedure in house on our equipment.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 07:12:50 PM
well there you go ...you re taught them something lol
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 07:35:17 PM
Well,the pistons will make mighty fine ash trays  and mini flower pots now. bounce
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 08:12:25 PM
or shifter knobs, door handles or light fixtures?!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 08:15:00 PM
One thing for sure,they aren't going to make power any more!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 08:21:02 PM
lol no they won't
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 08:25:35 PM
Block will be ready tomorrow. just waiting on new pistons now.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 08:39:18 PM
that is good news! mine is in the toyhauler patiently waiting  ;D was hoping my upipes would show today so i could get on the truck. didn't show so i guess i'll build two more front ends for something to do. as soon as the up pipes show , the truck is priority 1 !!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 08:46:56 PM
Blue is still in trailer from last trip.I'm going to tear it down this winter and do some engine work and get the geartronics shift stuff fitted to the trans. After that the new buggy will get the same geartronics stuff. There's really nothing like WOT no lift shifting.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 08:56:00 PM
i havent used it yet but my ms3 has the flat shit option which is wot shifts. have to check out enemies in april for the engine build he has done to the busa.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 09:07:57 PM
From what I've researched,I will not use any flat shift setup that is not closed loop with feedback from the barrel/drum to verify shift is successfully completed before power is allowed to resume. That is the only way to guarantee no trans damage. SFAIK,the geartronics setups are the only closed loop ones out there except for some supercars.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 09, 2018, 09:13:51 PM
mine is set up to be operated via a pressure switch off my clutch. i still have to slip the clutch for the shift but it still stalls until the switch is released. not quite the same as your going for.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 09, 2018, 09:58:40 PM
Nope. there is nothing in the system that verifies the shift is completed before power is reapplied. only a barrel rotation sensor will do that in a closed loop application. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 23, 2018, 02:11:52 PM
Hooray!!! Tracking shows pistons here Tuesday. Same for custom length pushrods. Everything is falling in place.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 26, 2018, 01:15:09 PM
always good news!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 26, 2018, 07:17:42 PM
PR's showed up today and UPS still shows tomorrow for pistons. I'll be glad to get this thing back together. I have a lot more irons in the fire still.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on March 27, 2018, 06:10:24 AM
Good to hear. dune time is coming on fast.  Drowning Drowning
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 27, 2018, 09:20:33 AM
that it is.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 30, 2018, 08:29:18 PM
Short block is done. Took a couple evenings to file fit the rings including the oil ring rails. Most times the oil rail rings do not need fitting buttttttt,I had JE do me a special size 4.150 bore piston and the nearest ring set is for a 4.155. No biggie as I have a nice powered ring gap grinder  but it still takes time to get it right.

The way JE corrected my piston failure was to provide a 1.2mm steel top ring with a reduced radial width of approx .060 less than a standard ring placed .020 lower than previous pistons ,a 1.5mm napier style second ring along with a 3mm with support rail oil ring set. All in all I now have a safe .100 between valve relief pocket and back of the top ring groove. To make the top ring seal well the lateral gas ports were retained. It's a very necessary thing for the narrow top ring.I am very comfortable with what they did.

I always keep a set of Fel-Pro 1034 gaskets with a .041 compressed thickness like I've used forever but decided to get a set of  1044's with .051 compressed thickness on the way from Summit. Hopefully here Mon.-Tues.. Just felt it a good idea to gain another .010 head to piston clearance for this unlike drag usage.   .035 is the very minimum to be safe dragging but .045 is a lot safer as the piston skirts wear and piston rock will allow that clearance to be lost over time .

 Anyway,,,,, I should be able to button the thing up Wed-Thurs.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on March 30, 2018, 08:45:04 PM
This little thing is actually kind of a POS but I have file fit more rings than I can remember with it.With care and getting to know the thing I can hit my target +- .001.  ABS makes some VERY nice ones but are $$$$.  Grabbed a pic off the web ,left cam at shop with comparison pics of the rings.I'll post them tomorrow.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on March 31, 2018, 07:58:23 AM
sounds like they stepped up and delivered what you wanted. always happier when you know whats installed and how. i like the power file. that looks very handy or better than by hand. so how did the head turn out this go round?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 02, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
Here's the pics for anyone interested.
 First one is of the napier ring style. 2 and 3 are showing the size comparisons and 4th is showing the pin bore intersecting the oil ring groove that causes issues with the lock it tool.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on April 03, 2018, 08:23:27 AM
i can see the recess in the side of the piston posing a problem with the siral lock. hard to see the diff in rings from pic but i do get it. this should prove to be better once you get it all done. the good heads will help too lol
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 03, 2018, 09:45:35 AM
pic 2 has the narrow top ring on top of a standard top ring. That shows how much narrower they are .
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on April 03, 2018, 11:40:35 AM
wasnt infront of a computer with an actual screen.....just looked on my phone.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 03, 2018, 05:15:13 PM
Engine is back together. Install tomorrow.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Enemy on April 03, 2018, 05:33:03 PM
Woohoo!!
Vroom Vroom version 2.o in the skull!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 03, 2018, 07:16:00 PM
 :swig:
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on April 04, 2018, 06:40:06 AM
Cant wait to see this thing, and that it actually exist LOL.  Couple weeks left, and MTC was closed last week on getting billet basket back.  Should be here in few more days.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 04, 2018, 07:00:45 AM
Just like bigfoot-you either believe it or not. Ya don't need to see it to believe..................
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 04, 2018, 07:58:48 PM
Installed,just need to bolt up torque converter,put on throttle body and plug in EFI and prime engine oil. Ready to start. Should only need to check timing.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: big dave on April 05, 2018, 07:42:56 AM
Sounds like thing are finally going right. that's good to hear.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on April 05, 2018, 01:41:36 PM
you'll be running that tonight.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 05, 2018, 08:21:10 PM
got a late start this afternoon. Fire up is tomorrow now. On a dumbass is me moment,I shot tranny fluid all down my leg from the hip down.  5:  Yup,brain fart thing. Only dumped about 2 quarts all over the floor and myself. :m  Damn that pump puts out like a horny teenage girl friend.Had to disconnect the lines from the coolers to get clearance for drill to spin the dry sump to prime engine. Being a total brainless doofus I wasn't thinking the damn dry sump pump also has the tranny pump in one section. Bet I don't forget that again. :nw LMAO
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 07, 2018, 12:09:55 PM
vroom,vroom.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on April 07, 2018, 01:03:51 PM
vroom,vroom.

Woo Hoo!   dd: dd:
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on April 07, 2018, 02:50:06 PM
i just hate when that happens! lol and glad you got it running now just have to find a co pilot on the sand to get it tuned  ;D
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 29, 2018, 07:39:53 PM
and the friggen saga continues.   beathorse.gif~c200. Engine coming out tomorrow and tear down hopefully tomorrow as well. WTH the hell it is this time????? Leak down definitely indicates piston damage again and a head gasket as well.  NEVER in my life has this happened to me. I guess my luck just ran out. I guess it happens to everyone sooner or later though.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 30, 2018, 07:45:39 PM
It only takes 7 hours to get the damn engine out and another hour to get all the stuff off so the intake can be removed. Here's what I found. WTH?????? I have always used Fel-Pro 1034@.041 compressed thickness. This time I used Fel-Pro 1044@ .051 compressed since the pistons JE sent had a.010 higher deck dimension.  That is the only thing different from what I have ever done before. Never had a head gasket issue-ever. Wellll,there's always a first time,huh. BOTH sides have let go.Think I'll give MLS(multi layer steel) a shot this time. This is BS. I may be lucky enough to have not hurt any parts since I caught it almost the second it happened. Pics are of the passenger side completely blown. Drivers side was just beginning to push out.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on April 30, 2018, 09:27:08 PM
wow! i have always used felpro w/o issue but always a first! hopefully it didnt hurt anyother parts.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on April 30, 2018, 09:34:20 PM
ditto!!!!!
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on May 01, 2018, 07:28:54 AM
Never seen a head gasket blow out like that.  At least you don’t have any big engine rebuild! 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 08:02:15 AM
I probably caught it in time-hopefully. The challenge is to now diagnose why it happened. The other bank was just beginning to blow out as well.  ?????
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Enemy on May 01, 2018, 08:05:24 AM
Damn, that is the shits for sure. Same here on Felpro, used them on everything and zero issues unless overboost on garbage fuel happened lol (only took one time to learn that lesson)
So on the MLS gasket... Do the heads and block need a different surface finish on them to use? I ask because I was questioned on what specific type of gasket I was using before having the deck finished on my last motor. Never realized a different grit was used between the two, still don't quite understand why..
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 08:37:39 AM
Damn, that is the shits for sure. Same here on Felpro, used them on everything and zero issues unless overboost on garbage fuel happened lol (only took one time to learn that lesson)
So on the MLS gasket... Do the heads and block need a different surface finish on them to use? I ask because I was questioned on what specific type of gasket I was using before having the deck finished on my last motor. Never realized a different grit was used between the two, still don't quite understand why..
MLS require a very smooth finish. I have always surfaced my heads for the F-P's the same smooth finish as well. SOME think a coarser finish helps hold a fiber gasket in place better. SOME,myself included, think the rougher surface will erode the gasket away when used with alum heads / iron block. I've put literally hundreds of alum/iron combinations together for customers without a single failure. The only difference this time was the use of the .010 thicker version of the same gasket to gain a bit of piston to head clearance. These F-P's have the preflattened wire fire ring that is nearly as good as a wire o-ring and does not brinnel the alum head.  I will add that when I received the thicker gaskets that they just did not have the same "feel" as the ones I have always used. Maybe the facings aren't as dense. Hell ,I don't know but I will put a call in to F-P tech.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 01, 2018, 09:04:37 AM
how much actual run time do you have on this engine with these blown\squeezed out head gaskets?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 09:05:31 AM
maybe 3 minutes total.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 09:29:18 AM
There was near zero water getting in anywhere until I started it up to back it up to load. I think on cold start, when you were there ,the gasket finally let go completely at that time.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 07:38:40 PM
Here's the head gasket and pic of piston tattooing from a missing piece of the SS wrap of the fire ring. The tattooing is pretty much a non issue so far as piston integrity. It is not nearly as bad as it looks. I'll get the short block torn down tomorrow to see if there was any piston skirt damage from lack of lube but I'm pretty sure they will be just fine-pretty sure.  :m
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 01, 2018, 09:31:17 PM
are those actual gouges in the aluminum piston? if so ,isn't that automatic piston replacement?
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 01, 2018, 09:33:03 PM
and wow! why did they fail like that after 3 min! not matter if it was 3mins ot 30 hrs , shouldnat have failed like that.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 01, 2018, 09:48:46 PM
They are just surface scratches. Probably a max of .005 deep at most. Knock off the peaks and good to go. You ought to see what a lot of engines have in them after minor blowups. More like an hour of run time,3 minutes max idling after it let go.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on May 02, 2018, 06:01:24 AM
Looks like all the gasket let go of the fire ring.  Hope the F-P guys have some insight info for ya.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 02, 2018, 07:41:58 AM
We'll see. FWIW,I always try to diagnose issues at tear down. When it came time to remove the heads I checked the torque on all the head bolts. Each and every one had lost substantial preload torque on both heads. That is the cause of this problem no doubt.All I can think of is that the .051 gaskets relaxed more than the .041 gaskets I normally use without issue-ever.The extra .010 apparently has something/everything to do with this. Jury is still out but I think MLS gaskets will be used this time to avoid any possiblity of this happening again.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 02, 2018, 07:47:03 AM
The fire rings were round before they were stretched into ovals . I was amazed how much they stretched before breaking.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 06, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
I believe I found the cause. Live and learn something new every day or the days a waste ,huh.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fastcorvairs on May 07, 2018, 04:53:21 AM
Did said builder of this engine re torque the heads after initial brake in and warm up? 5:
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 06:09:53 AM
Have never ever been done in the last 30+ years using the permatorque gaskets . Not a single failure. I do do the standard torque procedure of bring the torque in 3 steps of 40/55/70 and then let sit 24 hours,then retorque though since customers will rarely do a retorque after install and initial running. Literally hundreds of roundy round engines I assembled lived a long life done that way. Retorque  after initial run in is a source of much debate. I don't see diesel engines and Hellcats/Vettes engines or any of the factory performance engines ever getting a retorque either.
 Nope,wasn't what I found to be the cause. Yes,it was builder error though. I did do one thing different than I have ever done before and that was apparently the cause. Next guess.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 06:22:45 AM
Hint,there are 4 head studs buried under the intake ports that require an extension on the torque wrench . Due to the extension they require a different torque wrench setting. To do so requires resetting the torque wrench to a different setting each time one of the 4 come along in the torque sequence. Quite time consuming. I made a time saving mistake. No,I did not set the torque wrench wrong on any of them but it was torque wrench related. That should be enough of a hint.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on May 07, 2018, 09:12:04 AM
You didn’t lube your nuts, now you have dry chaffing!   8)
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 09:59:02 AM
You didn’t lube your nuts, now you have dry chaffing!   8)
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!  :m :m Welllll,nope that isn't it though.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 07, 2018, 10:26:06 AM
give up.....tell us how you made this mistake? cause if you went through tq sequaence as described and used your tq o meter gauge and used wet tq specs plus compensated for ext tq loss then i have no idea what happened.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 07, 2018, 10:26:39 AM
other than flat forgetting to fully tq the hard to get ones.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 10:51:41 AM
Aw,c'mon. You guys should be smarter than me. I feel pretty stupid right now so it should be easy.  Anyway,here it is. There are 17 head bolts on a SBC. One row of 8 short ones under the header,one mid row of 5 under the spring seats and the 3rd row of 4 under the intake runners that require an extension adapter to torque. Never before did I try what I did this time. Never again will I make the same mistake.What I did was to use 2 torque wrenches to save time/effort. BIG MISTAKE. Upon disassembly I found the gaskets were both compressed to the .051 thickness spec in the area of the bolts that are not under the intake runners.In the area  along the 4 under the runners the gasket was only compressed to .054. Obviously the 2 wrenches did not play well together. Slight different calibration between them . What is bad is that I KNEW better than to do it with 2 different tq. wrenches. Stupid is as stupid does.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 10:52:33 AM
other than flat forgetting to fully tq the hard to get ones.
nope,when done I ,without fail ,run over all one last time. Same goes for all mains and rods. Just insurance against at least one form of stupid.  :m
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 11:18:03 AM
The wire fire ring also had the same .003 difference in the thickness as the body of the gasket. Only cause would be the difference in calibration of the 2 tq. wrenches used.  .003 doesn't sound like much but when the total compression is only approx .010 that is approx a 30% less gasket crush in the area of the failure. Lesson learned at many $$$$ cost.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: budlight69 on May 07, 2018, 11:34:25 AM
so the real issue is "Your torque wrenches weren't calibrated for SHIT"   5:   :m
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 12:37:10 PM
The kicker is that none are . +/- 2 percent is pretty much the standard
of repeatability. There'ss plenty of evidence HF tq wrenches are as good as and many times better than the so called good stuff. I don't own a HF Wrench but it is tempting.  LMAO Bottom line though is that I violated the unwritten rule against using more than one tq wrench to do a job given the variances between even calibrated wrenches.  I have 3 that were certified every 2 years when I was doing this for an income but have not been recertified for about 15 years now.  This was totally my fault for using 2 wrenches on the same job. Lesson learned. I post this stuff so hopefully I prevent at least one other person making a similar mistake.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: Carlriddle on May 07, 2018, 01:18:47 PM
Wow crazy lesson to learn.  30% less is like forgetting to do last toque seq on them bolts.  This is why I don't have 2 torque wrenches.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 01:27:51 PM
Yup,lesson learned for sure. I've ordered a digital torque cell to verify my wrenches accuracy/repeatability. I'm thinking it will be interesting to say the least. 
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: dsrace on May 07, 2018, 01:34:39 PM
there is nothing wrong with hf tq wrenches! i keep ft and in lbs in my th`er and have never had a lug nut on the rail come loose lol  i can see the issue there but surprised it happened that quick. good that it did rather than the alternative on the sand.
Title: Re: Water,Water Everywhere or WTF??????
Post by: fabr on May 07, 2018, 07:49:43 PM
WOW!!! All I can say is WOW!!!!!! I couldn't wait so I made a bonzai run to Tulsa to pick up a strain gauge to test my tq.wrenches accuracy (fooking lack of!!) I did 10 pulls as consistent as possible. Both wrenches I used actually were fairly consistent to each other. Consistent,NOT accurate.

Wrench one-10 pulls high/low/ avg. were 64.9/62.8/63.8 within +/- 2%
Wrench two-10 pulls high/low/ avg. were 64.9/62.1/63.6 outside +/- 2%

 6 pounds less than indicated on wrench. Add to that the .78 extension correction factor and the 4 studs in question had even less clamping load on the gaskets.

From now on I will use the load cell to accurately calibrate/synchronize my torque wrenches before torquing on heads . A bit more PITA  but so is pulling the thing out and fixing the damn thing.

Moral to this is that even if your torque wrenches have been calibrated/certified shortly before you put them away for any amount of time they NEED to be checked before any serious / critical torquing.

Here is a shot of the certification of the load cell and the cell. Anyone recognize it? 

Using the load cell I can now verify what the correction factor is. All I need to do is set the cell at 70 and set each wrench to what is needed to hit the target. That means I can have my cake and eat it too!!! 2 wrenches,one with the extension ,both calibrated to click off at 70 regardless of what they read. Cool!