DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on May 24, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
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Had need to remove ring gear and move it to other side since this was set up for a rear engine and I'm mid engine.I've zero experience with Redline Heavy Shockproof Gear Lube. I believe that is what is in it. What little I know (or THINK I know) is it has a lot of solid additives that dampen the shock loads between gear teeth. Is that what I'm seeing? The solids separated out? The trans has been sitting for 4 years since last at Fortin so far as I can tell. Don't think it was run after that. At least I've had it sitting for that long. Thanks for any info .
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well i know less than you lol but enemy has had some experience with red line products as his buddy troy is a dealer.
fwi shawn at jeffco told me you can't run red line lube in his box's cause it doesn't hold up rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl pot calling the kettle black??????????????
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I don't think I care what jeffco says. Sort of like Gear-One. And a few others I can name.
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It is the shock proofing agent. Likely a Molybdenum disulfide or equal. To the extent it is not black, it is likely a Hexagonal Boron Nitrade (h-BN). Used in space applications for lubrication. No doubt a closely guarded secret as to exact composition, but it appears 30% solution?
Tech article here: http://www.redlineoil.com/news_article.aspx?id=49
Why yes, I did stay at a holiday inn last night. Why you ask?
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google IS our friend I always say. Gotta hit the sack now but will read that tomorrow. Thanks.
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I checked the MSDS on it. Does not add up to 100%. Call it secret sauce?
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I'm going to give geardoc an email. I am amazed at how it looks now. I know nothing but I don't think what I see is right. ??? I know it has separated a bit but the amount of liquid will not make it into a gear oil I've ever seen. It's like warm pudding just after it begins to set.
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We used the run that in the Fortin in the 5 car. Good shit, heat cycle it once and the pudding will go away. If you see prolonged temps over 250, it will not last. Instead of adding a cooler, the owner switched to Swepco 250WT. Bye bye 20HP...........
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Looks more like a grease than oil? And it prob would thin once cycled, but a swap to fresh looks like cheap insurance to me. Its not that thick in bottle or else it wouldn't pour out cap.
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Ya,it's going to get changed out ,just wondered why it is pudding. Thanks for the info BDKW.
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I don't think I care what jeffco says. Sort of like Gear-One. And a few others I can name.
LMAO i don't think anyone does lol
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actually i might have to try that redline heavy shock in the megasand trans i bought.
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Looks more like a grease than oil? And it prob would thin once cycled, but a swap to fresh looks like cheap insurance to me. Its not that thick in bottle or else it wouldn't pour out cap.
About $80 /gal. Some of the guys have said they heat it up a bit to get it to flow or it takes a while to fill a trans. I don't know,never used it. BDKW has some experience seeing the pudding but he's the only one ,so far,that has said that. Redlines site says to NOT use any pumps or coolers with it though. Surprised me since Fortin uses the stuff,from what I can tell,my trans has a pump and was used. Redline says the thickening agents/shookproofing agents can build up and block them. WTF?
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We used the run that in the Fortin in the 5 car. Good shit, heat cycle it once and the pudding will go away. If you see prolonged temps over 250, it will not last. Instead of adding a cooler, the owner switched to Swepco 250WT. Bye bye 20HP...........
Redline says specifically to NOT use any coolers or pumps with it. I had to read that twice. LOL!
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ya i read that too....even though it's a little pricy i think it would be a good choice for a trans
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Maybe, just maybe it is not the best choice? Is it shock that is the issue? If so, run it. Or is it temperature?
My guess is it was not designed for prolonged use? Let me rephrase that. An extended duty cycle. An off road car, possibly running 24 hours would be an extended duty cycle. A top fuel? Short duty cycle. Most race cars would have relatively short duty cycle.
So, lets stick with cars with big power and long duty cycles. LMP comes to mind. Fortin? Hardly. Hewland is the big dog. They don't recommend oil. Likely conflicts with big money contracts.
Want to know their secret? Hewland Engineering Ltd is frequently asked to recommend oil type or oil brand for it's transmissions. It may be that in the future Hewland will have specific product advice, but this is not the case at present.
We recommend that only well known brand name gear oils be used. A leading oil company advises us that conventional oils contain 'too many' additives for the utmost transmission efficiency, but will almost always lubricate well. Therefore, conventional gearbox oil from one of the leading brand names is almost certain to lubricate very well indeed. It may be at the cost of inefficiencies however. Therefore we do not recommend the use of specific racing oils initially, although a test program may prove these to be advantageous.
However, we offer the following advise:
Fit a temperature sensor from your data acquisition system into either the gearbox sump area, or into the oil pipeline on a pumped oil system. Monitor the oil temperature and note the pattern of temperature increase and the top temperature achieved. NB it usually takes at least 15 minutes of running to reach a level maximum temperature. The ambient temperature and the loads through the gearbox will affect temperature, i.e. a cold wet day will produce cooler gearbox temperatures.
There are two reasons for logging oil temperature:
1. An above normal temperature indicates a gearbox fault (Bearing or tooth failure etc.). This can detect a big failure before it is catastrophic.
2. When you have established a pattern of gearbox temperature for your vehicle, you can then try different oil quantities and then different oil types. As a broad guide, the oil quantity and type that runs the coolest is the most efficient at lubricating and minimising power loss
Just food for thought.
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Redline says specifically to NOT use any coolers or pumps with it. I had to read that twice. LOL!
Odd. I know of other cars that have used coolers with it without issue. They were torn down after around 1500 miles so maybe they never had time to sludge up.
Always had to set the bottles out in the sun for a couple hours before filling to make them pour well.
Shifting will be a little stiff till you get it warm.
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Maybe, just maybe it is not the best choice? Is it shock that is the issue? If so, run it. Or is it temperature?
My guess is it was not designed for prolonged use? Let me rephrase that. An extended duty cycle. An off road car, possibly running 24 hours would be an extended duty cycle. A top fuel? Short duty cycle. Most race cars would have relatively short duty cycle.
So, lets stick with cars with big power and long duty cycles. LMP comes to mind. Fortin? Hardly. Hewland is the big dog. They don't recommend oil. Likely conflicts with big money contracts.
Want to know their secret?
Just food for thought.
Yup,food for thought. I have time to chew on it before I fill it back up.
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Odd. I know of other cars that have used coolers with it without issue. They were torn down after around 1500 miles so maybe they never had time to sludge up.
Always had to set the bottles out in the sun for a couple hours before filling to make them pour well.
Shifting will be a little stiff till you get it warm.
I know a lot of people run coolers and pumps with them. Soooooo much contradictory info out there.
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Yup,food for thought. I have time to chew on it before I fill it back up.
In the case of BDK's 5 car, ultimately it is heat due to duty cycle. Same as a LMP car. BDK was showing 350*? Curious what sorts of temps others have? Now, in the FWIW department, manufactures put coolers on their cars / trucks. Had there been a way to obtain the same life from a simple additive for "shock" even at $80.00 a gallon, it would be much less expensive than a cooler for production. My daily driver is a Chrysler 200, 9 speed. I was going to replace fluids at 50k. Service manager said NO. Sealed unit and $140.00 a gallon.
Fabr you have lots of experience with boxes, what would you say kills em quicker? "Shock" or temp?
Just cause I know you like to read, I am going jack with you.....
http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf (http://www.lastgreatroadtrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/gear-oil-comparison.pdf)
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Yummi,I feel the reason redline heavy is used for the fortins (and others)is for the shock only ,has nothing to do with temps. Shock kills the transaxles ,r&p 's primarily,I believe,more than temps. That said,heat most likely kills most types of trans way more often than shock. I've read that report before. Very insightful.
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Something I found of interest.
Motul and Redline.
There are three types of "synthetic" oils. These are referred to as Group III, Group IV and Group V oils. The difference is in the way they are produced, and from what they are produced.
Group III oils are 'hydrocracked' oils. This oil is created by a very complex process involving catalytic converions of various feed stocks with hydrocarbons to produce a very high grade mineral oil. Whilst by definition these are not a true synthetic oil, they do perform very well and are almost on par with a true synthetic oil. I believe Exxon won a court case a few years back in which synthetic was deemed to refer to the performance of the oil, not what it was made up of, and thus is now allowed to be called a 100% synthetic oil.
Group IV oils are made from PAO's (Polyalphaoefin's). Group IV synthetics come from hydrocarbonated oefins such as 1-decene. These are a true synthetic oil and bear no resemblence to mineral oils.
Group V oils are made from esters. Esters are created from alcohol and acid base compounds and are oxygenated. Esters form the most advanced synthetic lubricants and is what is exclusively used for jet turbine lubrication. Ester based oil is also called a designer oil because the properties of the ester can be customised by the choice of alcohol, acid and the manufacturing process to deliver specific results. Ester molecules also contain oxygen which has a positive polarity and hydrogen which has a negative polarity. This gives the oil the ability to make an electro-chemical bond with metals, which provides far superior lubrication than any other oil.
Redline and Motul (havent checked recently) were the only two manufacturers to offer ester based synthetic oils within the Australian market place. Castrol has always been and still is a Group III based 'synthetic' oil, as is Mobil 1 and any other 'synthetic' oil on offer for $50 for 5L. Motul, Silkolene etc all offer PAO based synthetics which are a bit more expensive ($60 - $100 per 5L depending on feed stocks used). A true ester based synthetic oil will run you about $50 per 2L, and as above, I believe Motul and Redline are still the only manufacturers to offer this in Australia. You can also distinguish ester based oils as they have a very distinctive smell (which smells nothing like normal oil).
So to sum it all up, the poster above is almost correct in that only Redline and Motul offer synthetic oils, the only difference is there are a few other exotic providers in that bunch such as Silkolene (in the form of PAO synthetics).
Castrol, Mobil, Shell etc whilst they are legally allowed to market their Group III's as a synthetic oil, being true to definition, it is just a very high quality mineral oil.
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Crazy stuff. We are lied to every which way.
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Apparently so.
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The test in the link a few posts back has Amsoil doing really well. While I tend to take there marketing claims with a grain of salt but, I have a buddy back in San Diego that is a distributor for them. Apparently they have reformulated there gear oils as a result of feedback from the Pro-4 guys. Had was supplying several teams that had switched over from Swepco do to increased R&P life with the Amsoil.
I know first hand there shock oil works very well. Since I know longer get Maxima for free, I will be going back to it........
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decisions,decisions,decisions...............crap.
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I run Redline heavy shockproof gear oil in my gearbox. It is pink new and flows like 90w gear oil. Mine gets a grey tint to it between changes. There is a heavier oil they make I have been told it is red.
Looks like you have it and seems to be pretty clean.
Mine will separate some in the quart bottle. Turns more red on top and pinker at the bottom.
You could run mine through a cooler.
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SFAIK there is green superlightweight shockproof,blue lightweight shockproof and red heavy shockproof. You must be running their heaviest already. It is considered a 75w250
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More of a bubble gum color......
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Bubble gum is correct. Mine never looks thick like the goo in fabr's pic.
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Pepto Bismo is what I've heard the consistency and color was. I'll see for myself soon enough. Have 2 gallons coming.