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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: The Kar Audio Guy on October 30, 2009, 05:49:00 PM
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I started this project a little while ago.
I thought I would post up some pics.
I'll be using a Honda 954RR for a powerplant and a Honda civic tranny for a rear diff.
Doug Heim has been a huge help for a lot of my bits and pieces. Thanks Doug!
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Get rid of that chain in the steering. Apart from that, looks good!
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it'll work but uj's will be much more precise. Fine start!
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Im not a fan of the chain either but looking at the design and route you want to go you may not have much more choice. At least put a tensioner on it.
Looks great and thanks for the props!
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Why don't ya stick a rack in it? Oh I see it's a jack shaft that goes to a rack.. yeah I'd whack a couple of Uni jointed steering shafts outa a 97 honda civic or something...
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There is... Or will be. The chain is just used to shift the column over to the CL of the buggy. I have seen this done many times in earlier designs.
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I've built some center drive show cars, and the chain seem to work fine. I looked at many different options short of using a million U-joints this was a good solution. I have a tensioner in there just not in that photo.
I think the focus should be put on my super rad front hubs! ;)
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Im not a fan of the chain either but looking at the design and route you want to go you may not have much more choice. At least put a tensioner on it.
Looks great and thanks for the props!
Yes the chain needs to me taut to prevent more play than you'll like. IMO.
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SUPER RAD FRNT HUBS!!!
Where ever did you get such fine parts from? 8) 8) 8)
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e-bay? LOL!!!!
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I got them at GH Mega store ;) there's a link on this site 8)
I did a bit of work today. I'm getting the mounts for the front shox all built. looks like I'll be able to get about 22" of travle! at full bump I should have about 5 to 6 inches of clearance. I'll get more pics up tomorrow
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work on the buggy is slow. the shop has been busy, and my guys like to use both tanks of gas up and not say a thing about it!
I manage to tack the suspension stuff in. 4.5" of clearance from the bottom of the chassis to the bottom of the rim at full bump, and 22" of extension. I'm quite happy. :)
Almost all the tubes are in for the cage. I changed a lot from what the Rorty plans said.
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I just realized I put my post in the wrong place...oopps. since I'll be running a Honda 954RR MC engine in my ride. ::)
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Fixed it for ya. You're in the right spot now.
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thanks for getting me on track.
I got a bit of work done; the rear trailing arms are on! I have 6* of negative camber at full bump and 1.5* of negative camber at full droop. I'm super happy with the numbers.
Doug Heim is building my adapters for the rear hubs. I'm running Ford F150 wheel bearings in the rear, so we are making a kustom adapter that will hold the rotor and go from the 5.5X5 Ford pattern to the 205X5 VW pattern.
while I'm waiting on that stuff, I'll work on the sub frame and bottom mounts for the motor and tranz.
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Awesome Bud. Wo is doing your CAD work? Great stuff there :P ::)
I just orderd a couple of those seats for my upcomming builds. There the sama as my Cuda. I love them. My question is on the mounts. Are those the purchased ones out of Summit? I considered buying those a well. Were they easy to install and worth the cost? Are they heavy duty enough? If so Ill be buying some as the price is right. Less work for me as well. One thing off the list you know.
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I got mine from JEGS, pretty cheap unless you get the ones from Kirky. then you pay a bit extra for the name.
they are really all the same, simple aluminium seat brackets. I mounted mine to a set of sliders, the wife's legs are a little longer than mine :o
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I got mine from JEGS, pretty cheap unless you get the ones from Kirky. then you pay a bit extra for the name.
they are really all the same, simple aluminium seat brackets. I mounted mine to a set of sliders, the wife's legs are a little longer than mine :o
easier to wrap those around your neck and wear her like a feed bag huh?
I got your package today!
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oh yes doug! ;)
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Most excellent!
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So, I blew up my sled yesterday.
I haven't pulled the head yet, but it acted just like my moto when I melted the piston on that. I was pinned, roled off the gas,slowed from 90 to 40, then went to hit it again and it wouldn't rev. I looked at the gauges no idiot lights were on. stoped the motor. opened the hood and it was hot as hell. I let it cool a bit, tried the pull start and it was siezed. after a coulpe more tries it turned out and started but it didn't sound good. so we towed her in. it was a bad day for sleds 4 of us went out and only 1 returned. my shop manager and I have the same sled SkiDoo Rev 800, his started on fire along with his boot. it was pretty funny to watch. he had no idea he was on fire till we taold him, and even then it took a moment or two to sink in.
I found out today the piston and cylinders are smoked goodie goodie. ::)
on the buggy front! motor is in(top mounts), and the wife and I started working on the sub frame for the bottom of the motor and tranz. super happy with the way it is looking. I'll post pics tomorrow.
my axles will be swept forward a little bit, is this ok? I'm running F150 CV's...
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I mounted mine to a set of sliders, the wife's legs are a little longer than mine :o
If you have to have a problem, this sounds like a really good one to have!
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got some work done on the buggy since I couldn't take the sled out.
I still need to finish the templates for gussets, mounts for the bottom of engine and the mount for the tranz.
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If you keep the sled broken you'll have a buggy for spring. ;)
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good point, but it's oh so fun. I'll have it back by next weekend ;D. that means I need to get my guys to do the work they should be doing, so I dont have to, that will let me work on the buggy during business hours. BANG!
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You have that problem too huh?
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it looks great. I love to alternator placement. can you post more pics of you pillow bearing and input shaft set up?
I thing I'm going to run a third cog to adjust the chain.
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The only thing with running a third gear 1) you lose more cooling time 2) I did it with sprockets and you have to get right on or it will wear big time.
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I would think you would gain time because you could make the chain longer??
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Here are some shots of the car
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that jack is awesome. great idea.
my tranz is out of a 89-91 Civic Si it should be pretty strong. I will end up running my pillow bearing horizontal. I dont really have the room to make my tranny move,so i guess I need to be cleaver with the heat issue.
you have a nice looking ride. i cant wait till mine is done
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455bird, what size sprockets are you running?
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Without going out to look I think they are 17F/18R
I'm also running a air blower on my chain. I went through three chains last year (non o ring) and keeping a lot of lube on it they will stretch.
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I'm stuck at the moment getting my ass kicked by my trailing arms. my axle grows by about 10"...I was thinking if I could find a sliding axle with 28splined ends this would solve my problems? any thoughts?
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You will HAVE to redesign the arms or reposition the tranny so that at full droop the tranny output flanges centerline is in line with the C/L of the hubs as you look at the car from the side.
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The 2 red lines should be same distance back, or at least very close, from the TA's pivot centerline at full droop to minimize plunge . Sorry but you are in for a heap of trouble if you don't correct this now.
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You will HAVE to redesign the arms or reposition the tranny so that at full droop the tranny output flanges centerline is in line with the C/L of the hubs as you look at the car from the side.
so the location of the tranz output shafts up and down does not matter? only the forward and back so the CVs line up at full droop...
thanks for the help
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the pic that you put the red lines on, is a photo of the trailing are almost at full bump... I dont know if that detail changes anything
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Doesn't matter it will be even worse at full droop. At full bump your hubs should be behind the output shaft centerline. No way around it your axles will not live with 10 inches of plunge. might as well step back,take a deep breath and start redesigning it. Either the output shaft needs moved forward,the ta's need to be longer or IMO a combination of both.
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Not only will the slip shafts not live with 10" of( I know it will only be maybe 6" or so most of the time)rapid and continuos cycling the cv's misalignment angle will be used up quicker also limiting travel from max.
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so the location of the tranz output shafts up and down does not matter? only the forward and back so the CVs line up at full droop...
thanks for the help
Yes it matters also but not as much. Ideally the hub and output shaft will be in alignment with each other at full droop and your plunge will then be at a minimum.
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Yes you need to make new trailing arms like master said
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10 inches? WoW! Most people aim for zero. Some even come close to it.
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I belive zero is near impossible with trailing arms though.
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10 inches? WoW! Most people aim for zero. Some even come close to it.
yeah I know... thanks for the help ::)
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so the location of the tranz output shafts up and down does not matter? only the forward and back so the CVs line up at full droop...
thanks for the help
I will take a stab at it......
Certainly the up and down location of the tranny matters, but it is the hardest thing to change. The vertical location of the tranny output is limited by physical size of the tranny, and its location in the frame. The full bump location of the trailing arms is limited by the desired clearance under the buggy at full bump as well as the tire size. Once those components are determined you can't do much about the full bump vertical locations. The full droop location is going to be limited by the tranny location and probably the max angle of the CV's.
When you look at the arc that the trailing arms go through we start to see how they swing forward and backward as they go up and down. If you exagerated their travel until they were hanging straight down, they would have moved forward by the length of the arm..... 32"? So as well as moving away from the tranny vertically, they have moved away horizontally 32". So how can you use this movement to your advantage? By placing the center of the wheel directly in line with the tranny output at full droop, as the wheel moves from ride heigth to full droop it is actually headed toward the tranny output instead of away from it. At the same time it is headed toward the tranny flange horizontally, it is headed away from the tranny flange vertically, so the combination of the two movements results in less plunge.
If the center of the wheel is horizontally aligned with the tranny flange at full droop then at ride heigth or at full bump it is behind the tranny output. So as the wheel moved up it gets closer to the tranny vertically while getting further away horizontally. This trade off results in less plunge.
The fact that you have semi-trailing arms helps because they don't move straight up and down if viewed from the rear of the car. They actually are farthest away from the tranny (widest) when straight back, and move inward (narrower) as they move up and down. So at full droop they have moved inward while at full bump they have moved outward.
I gtg at the moment.
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Great stab engineer! Well said! So,KAG, what's the plan of attaCK? You thinking of standing the tranny up a little to get it further forward and lengthening the arms also? You do need to keep the chain as long as possible.
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Engineer,
:s
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Engineer, well said!
I thank you and masterfabr both for all the clarity.
I asked my master tech at the shop next door. he says I can tip the tranz just a few degrees... this wouldn't help too much, so I'll leave it where it is and make new trailing arms.
thanks guys!
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So most all trailing arm designs are based on the original VW design with a certain ratio of trailing arm length, width and travel. You will notice that after market arms are advertised as 3+3, etc. The reason for this is because if you increase travel (longer arm) then you need a corresponding change in width to keep everything in balance.
Increasing the length of your arms will help, but with excessively long arms, there is not as much fore and aft movement as the wheel moves up and down. So you won't experience as much reduction in plunge from the fore and aft movement.
Changing the distance from the trailing arm pivots to the tranny output is the root of the problem. If you would take a string and fix one end where the original output was on the Rorty design, and pull it out to where the CV is on the trailing arm, then cycle the arm up and down, it would be very easy to see how and why it was originally designed to work. Then start adjusting things from there. Longer trailing arms may work, moving the trailing arm mounts back would work. Everything is a tradeoff.
All of this also affects CV angle. As discussed before the full bump vertical travel is limited by tire size and desired frame clearance. So if looking for maximum travel full bump is relatively set. Now looking at full droop it will be determined by maximum cv angle. If the wheel is directly below the tranny output at full droop then the angle of the axle relative to the wheel and tranny output is only the angle created by the vertical distance. If the wheel were 3 inches in front of the tranny output then the horizontal angle of the axle would be added to the vertical angle causing more CV angle at the same droop location. Therefore if the wheel center is not directly under the tranny output at full droop then you will have less travel at the same max CV angle.
So if we have the wheel center directly under the tranny output at full droop then as the wheel swings up it moves back behind the tranny output. So at full bump we have very little CV angle based on the vertical angle of the axle, but we have some angle based on the wheel being behind the tranny output. However it is a good trade in order to get maximum travel at full droop.
So both plunge and CV angle are helped by the wheel center being directly below the tranny output at full droop. Thus the rule of thumb of needing the two inline at full droop.
Need diagrams.
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Engineer, well said!
I thank you and masterfabr both for all the clarity.
I asked my master tech at the shop next door. he says I can tip the tranz just a few degrees... this wouldn't help too much, so I'll leave it where it is and make new trailing arms.
thanks guys!
I hope it helps.
I would suggest tacking a piece on to your trailing arm to represent the new length, then use a tape measure or string to run from the tranny CV flange to the wheel cv flange to measure your plunge before making the new arms. It would suck to move the pivots at this point, but I would check the numbers before making a new set of arms to make sure it will be ok.
Are you using 930's? I don't know the max plunge numbers but someone here can tell you.
Good luck!
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I'm running F150 cv's and wheels bearings. they will take more angle, but less plunge. only about 2" it looks like.
it looks like if I make my arms longer they will be longer by about 12", and the buggy will widen in the rear by about 8"total. not too bad i guess?
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I'm running F150 cv's and wheels bearings. they will take more angle, but less plunge. only about 2" it looks like.
it looks like if I make my arms longer they will be longer by about 12", and the buggy will widen in the rear by about 8"total. not too bad i guess?
You wouldn't necessarily have to follow the same angle of the arms and end up with 8" wider. You could make it the same width just longer. The only way to know for sure what the results to plunge will be is to mock up the location of the outer CV on the arm and cycle it up and down checking the plunge as you go.
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Yup to all above!
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how much plunge does a 930 set up have?
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thanks guys!!
I finally got my head out of me arss. it looks like if I length my arms about 8" I'm money and if I drop the tranz down just about 6" I get about 20 inches of useable travel and a longer chain...seems good to me?!
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thanks guys!!
I finally got my head out of me arss. it looks like if I length my arms about 8" I'm money and if I drop the tranz down just about 6" I get about 20 inches of useable travel and a longer chain...seems good to me?!
Sounds like a plan! ;D
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Ditto!
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Your custom adapters and brake kits are on their way my friend. Thank You
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Very cool indeed.
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Sic!!! cant wait! top notch work Doug! :l
your brake parts are on their way today I spent a bit of time with my fastenal guy to see if we can find some boots that will work. he is still looking[/size][/size]
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Thanks!
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That hat would make a nice start on a smaller mid board setup using 100MM cv's!
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That hat would make a nice start on a smaller mid board setup using 100MM cv's!
Assbug, get a hold of Doug! I'm sure he would be super happy to help you out! 100mm CV's are out of a BMW right?
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Thanks. Id be glad to help.
I believe so Clay. Are 100mm CVs also type 2 and 4? I believe there O.D.'s are 100mm,
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That's some nice work Doug, as always... ;)
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has anyone seen or heard of a plunging axle from McKenzie? it looks to have a lot of plunge...
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I haven't. Seems hard to find a lot of info on their stuff. I hear it's top shelf tho. What can you tell us?
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I haven't. Seems hard to find a lot of info on their stuff. I hear it's top shelf tho. What can you tell us?
I have a pic that was in an article that I found. I cant seem to post it tho because it is in a format not supported by the site. I'm looking for a different one. I have to think someone has to have an axle that will plunge more than 3or4 inches...
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I finally figured out the rear end of my car. I cut apart the old trailing arm to get my hub plate. I made my trailing arm jig 10" longer. I'm getting pretty good at making trailing arms now. eyes
the new arms look great and will solve some problems. I still think I will try to find a plunging axle, a plunging axle with 3-4inches of plunge, to get a bit more down travel. if I run a Ford outer CV on the inside with a plunging axle I should be able to get another 5-6 inches of down travel.
the bottom of my wheels are only 12"below my lowest point in the chassis at full droop.
I would be much happier with a good 18" below. this would allow more adjustment in ride height.
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I got my awesome parts from Doug Heim Engineering! ;) they look and will work awesome!
the welds on the new arms are much better too...
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The longer arms have many pluses. Looking good.
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Just be sure you brace the arms properly due to the extra leverage. Im glad the hubs will do the job! It was a team effort. You provided me with great info and ideas as well. Some sacrifice form for function. For whatever reason I need to achieve both at higher than average standards.
Thanks again.
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I like your style Doug! 8)
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Good job guys, looks great!! ;D The build's coming along nicely BTW... ;)
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Good job guys, looks great!! ;D The build's coming along nicely BTW... ;)
thanks Reidy02!
I just got a little time to build my other trailing arm. it only took me about 3hours, I'm getting better at this TA building.
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got my shifter done today.
I should be able to get FrankenBuggy on the ground monday or tuesday. I have a friend that owns a tire shop and he is hooking me up with some take offs till I figure out what tires I'll run.
Kfab is hooking me up with some axles! they should be here on tuesday. PROGRESS!!
if my sled stays broken I think I my be ready by spring ;)
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added a little bit today. I made bracket to put the rear mounts of my front A-arms in double shear.
looking at it now I should have put a curve into the side so it doesnt look so square.
oh well. I am my worst critic.
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Unless you triangulate that box you have accomplished little. Looks good though. maybe something like this. IMHO
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i was wondering about that after i got the other side done. ill throw in a couple pieces of 1"
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arm pivots upgraded :)
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Now that won't deflect and end up cracking the upright tube. Well done.
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forgot one photo.
I was thinking about sinking the outside of my trailing arm with some thinner material. I was going to use a 2" dimple die to add some strength. just want to get an idea on how thin.?
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I'm sure it will be fine but I'm also not a fan of the bolts through the frame(first pic). If it were me,next time, I would put a threaded boss in place to avoid the furrule through the chassis tube(second pic).
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forgot one photo.
I was thinking about sinking the outside of my trailing arm with some thinner material. I was going to use a 2" dimple die to add some strength. just want to get an idea on how thin.?
Lack of info. What?
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i did the bolt through because I didnt know any better and that is what Rorty had in the plans.
I was going to box the outsides of my trailing arms. I'm not sure what thickness sheet would be do to use? and if I use a 2" dimple die can I go to something even thinner?
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i did the bolt through because I didnt know any better and that is what Rorty had in the plans.
I was going to box the outsides of my trailing arms. I'm not sure what thickness sheet would be do to use? and if I use a 2" dimple die can I go to something even thinner?
Hindsight is always 20/20 but you should be fine as is. I sure a shell would not change it now anyway. Just thought I'd mention it for the future/others.
Post some pics/dimensions of your ta's/
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masterfabr, I have a few fotos at the top of page 6 i believe. i have the length and a good side shot. I'll get measurement up tomorrow.
thanks for the info!
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Looking good! Getting alot done over the holidays huh?
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Hey there Kar Audio Guy, I was just looking through your build and it looks good BTW, I just wanted to ask what size seats are those? Cause I'm putting one in my cuda I saw yours and got the same sort of mounting brackets that you got, but when I go to mount it it's only like four and half inches wide and you can't cut the steel wire cause then the other side wont work and I didn't notice anything on the Jegs site to say you need to order this one if you have a wide seat! eyes Did you have them same problem?
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Hey there Kar Audio Guy, I was just looking through your build and it looks good BTW, I just wanted to ask what size seats are those? Cause I'm putting one in my cuda I saw yours and got the same sort of mounting brackets that you got, but when I go to mount it it's only like four and half inches wide and you can't cut the steel wire cause then the other side wont work and I didn't notice anything on the Jegs site to say you need to order this one if you have a wide seat! eyes Did you have them same problem?
If you are talking about what I thinky you are, I'd just remove the wire and make a new one the correct length.
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Thanks Boost but how do ya do the krimp dealios? Did you have the same problem?
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Hey there Kar Audio Guy, I was just looking through your build and it looks good BTW, I just wanted to ask what size seats are those? Cause I'm putting one in my cuda I saw yours and got the same sort of mounting brackets that you got, but when I go to mount it it's only like four and half inches wide and you can't cut the steel wire cause then the other side wont work and I didn't notice anything on the Jegs site to say you need to order this one if you have a wide seat! eyes Did you have them same problem?
I'm guessing your talking about the slider part? I used a piece of TIG rod. I'll get some pic with mearment up in a few.
thanks for the kudos on the build
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Thanks Boost but how do ya do the krimp dealios? Did you have the same problem?
I use a rounded over chisel. Smack the groove on one side, flip it over, smack the groove on the other side. If that isn't enough, then I put it in the round notch of my welpers (mig wire pliers) and squeeze it in the vice.
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my seat is 17". I flipped my brackets and sliders so the hardware is on the inside, just a cleaner look I think. the side you will need to drill a new hole so you can get the leverage right to move the other side with the new wire. I just bent the wire and pulled it through.
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My last sliders quit working the first day in the sand. :(
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Yeah that's exactly what I was talking about! Thanks guys,I think it's helpful at times to get other peoples feed back on what they did to over come a problem. Thanks again guys... ;)
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no worries ;) Reidy02
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Sorry for the formalities Clay, I didn't see your name there, my name is David. ;D but you probably knew that! ;D
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OK clay you got me, how did ya do it ya can't have just fliped em ova...
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It's Ok I figured it out!
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Ok I'm back!!! work has been hell! too many projects, but I guess thats not a bad thing.
I'm no longer going the Honda tranny thing. I just see to many things that can go wrong and with the way I'll drive it, i dont think it will last.
Yoshi being the rad dude he is hook me up like a tow truck on a new RPM fnr. Thanks Yoshi!!!
I'll be back building FrankenBuggy as soon as the part is in hand. yay
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Sweet! I can't wait to see some progress.
Did you keep the original shorter trailing arms?
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nope I cut up the short arms kick I'm getting really good at making them!! eyes
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Can't wait to see you get good at USING them! ;) ;D ;D
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Hey Clay, good to see ya back! Me too, anyway what's the go with the FNR's when they are hooked up do ya have like 6 forwards and same reverse? Or does it work another way? Also how will it stand up to the horse power ya runn'n through it? I was thinking about a FNR but if it wont take the power well not much point..
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kar guy any chance of making it to ls in a couple of weeks?