DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: dsrace on November 20, 2011, 10:15:51 AM
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ok guys I sold my v-6 rail yesterday and am going back to mc rail. I want to try a different idea and am looking at the yamaha v-max 1.7 ltre or 1697 cc engine. I'm thinking of coupling it to a bmw rear diff since it's shaft driven. the bmw rear diff's have several r&p combo to choose from stock. the primary and secondary reduction are done in the case on the v-max because it's shaft driven. i'm trying to figure which r&p to go with for a 1200 lb rail on 1300 paddles. I would like to turbo this engine as well. here are some specs on the engine and trans.
a thanks to yummi for helping with the info!
ENGINE
Type: Liquid cooled, 4-stroke, DOHC, 4-valve, V-type 4-cyclinder
Displacement: 1,679cc
Bore & stroke: 90.0 x 66.0 mm
Compression Ratio: 11.3:1
Max. power: 147.2 kW (200 PS) @ 9,000 rpm
Max. torque: 166.8 Nm (17.0 kg-m) @ 6,500 rpm
Lubrication: Wet sump
Carburettor / Fuel supply: Fuel injection
Clutch type: Wet, multiple-disc diaphragm spring
Ignition: T.C.I.
Starter system: Electric
Transmission: Constant mesh, 5-speed
Final transmission: Shaft drive
Primary reduction ratio: 1.509
Secondary reduction ratio: 3.082
Gear ratio:
Gear ratio-1st gear: 2.375
Gear ratio-2nd gear: 1.810
Gear ratio-3rd gear: 1.400
Gear ratio-4th gear: 1.115
Gear ratio-5th gear: 0.935
http://www.holeshot.com/dynocharts/dyno_09vmax_fx.html (http://www.holeshot.com/dynocharts/dyno_09vmax_fx.html)
here are some spec on the busa to compare it to.
http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/specshayabusa.html (http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/specshayabusa.html)
I know from enemy's rail that 4.86-1 final drive ratio works very well in the sand running 1100 paddles, my 1300's are 1" taller and of course 2" wider. the rails should be very close in weight. that 4.86 is after primary reduction.
2-1 r&p any thought's? aslo clutch type, which would be less prone to slipping?
this is just a thought right now and I can't seem to find any wrecked bikes for donars as of yet either.
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If i can make this happen i was thinking of trying to couple this rev unit to the input of the bmw diff.
http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qba7r (http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qba7r)
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I have not held one in my hands but I have heard the Quiafe unit has play or slop in it (I am not sure of this or see how it could)
So check that out before you go for it.
Yoshi has a similiar unit that was less loot and supposed to be good for crazy power but I cannot recall the maker of it at this moment.
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thanks nuts I'll have to look into that when the time comes.
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1st step-I'd say you've done that ;D
And those motors are rare as virgin hooker.
Looks like Enemy is running 20:1 total reduction in 1st gear. And for that motor to be similar looks like a diff in the 1.81:1 range. Didnt realize those had secondary redution too, so the shaft is 1:1 at rear wheel?
Here's an inline rev, uses th400 splines 12" long and rated to 500hp. http://www.roadstercycle.com/
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ya I am finding out old people must own them cause I can't find any wrecked ones! did find a few with 60k miles on them! damn they must not stay home rofl
I have seen that inline rev unit but thanks for posting it. I really am not to worried about rev to be honest but i say that now and maybe not later.
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That motor is as bad ass as it is rare......... I've been looking for a salvage one for a couple of years.
Jeffco also makes an inline reverse box.
Beemer diff........ Sounds expensive to change the R&P. An 8.8 out of Mustang is all aluminum and pretty cheap to regear. Plus the are many options for diffs from spools to Torsen types.
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thanks for the info. I will look into the mustang if I can find one of those motors but it's not looking good right now. I put a couple call into a 2 salvage companies I have done business with in the past, we'll see what they can come up with. otherwise I will just go with the busa.
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T-birds had cast units which a cheaper and easier to find, just heavier. I think the Newer exploders came with alum ones too. If you need it to spin the other direction, newer F150 front diff's are reverse cut 8.8's..........
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1st step-I'd say you've done that ;D
And those motors are rare as virgin hooker.
Looks like Enemy is running 20:1 total reduction in 1st gear. And for that motor to be similar looks like a diff in the 1.81:1 range. Didnt realize those had secondary redution too, so the shaft is 1:1 at rear wheel?
Here's an inline rev, uses th400 splines 12" long and rated to 500hp. http://www.roadstercycle.com/
I think that the 3.08 secondary reduction is between the shaft and the rear wheel, so that will be eliminated.
I come up with needing a 1:5.5 to be around 20:1 in first gear. The red line is much lower on this motor than the busa so it may be OK with less reduction.
Based on 31" tall tires I come up with a 1:5.88 ratio needed to put the 9K red line at 100 MPH.
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Engineer is correct ;D secondary redution at rear wheel.
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2009-yamaha-v-max-black-metallic-m-vmx17yb/o/m18185#sch595462 (http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2009-yamaha-v-max-black-metallic-m-vmx17yb/o/m18185#sch595462)
But that makes it a little easier on the diff ratio. Theres a company called Madmax that does all sorts of mods; chain conv, fat tire, turbo, and supercharger. eyes eyes
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thanks guys! ya i forgot about the r&p at the wheel , getting old I guess. 5.88 or 5.5 would work really and I like to think of this combo as this old man's motorcycle rail. rofl between the v-6 rail and bike more grunt less rpm for the old guys LMAO rofl. where enemy is running that 1100 paddle I have a set of 1300 of the same brand I want to run cause I already have them!!
engineer I really am not worried about hitting 100 mph anymore and factory rev limits are always set low ;)
BDKW1 you think they offer a 5.5 -1 5.88-1 r&p for that mustang rear diff? I know in the bmw 318i deepest stock was 4.45 with lsd and $400 used.
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well if I can't find a wrecked v-max I will just go busa and give one of these units a try, maybe.
http://www.lynxae.co.uk/Products-Bikesports.htm (http://www.lynxae.co.uk/Products-Bikesports.htm)
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They make a 5.13, 5.71 and a 6.14. These are for the SUV rears. The cars ones only go to 4.11 for some reason. Not sure if there are differences in the cases or if they just don't think a passenger car would ever need anything deeper than a 4.11
https://www.ringpinion.com/b2c/PartsList.aspx?SearchMode=Diff&TypeID=4&DiffID=166&CatID=35 (https://www.ringpinion.com/b2c/PartsList.aspx?SearchMode=Diff&TypeID=4&DiffID=166&CatID=35)
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thanks for the link .
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Time to move on to 2nd step! ;)
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baby step baby steps just like buying a chevy instead of a ford! rofl rofl
I will have some pics before too long for all to see but had some things around the shop that required attention first like my air compressor that literally through a rod!
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A month and no pics!! What you been doing, breaking in the new camper. LMAO LMAO LMAO
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Idaho 6/24/12 6/30/12. Better get your butt in gear. Be there or be. Well square.
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butt has been in gear but everytime I turn around someone is buying the chassis I just built for myself so off to start another one this weekend right after I get my fith wheel hitch in.
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That's a good one Carl! :m :m :m :m
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Where's the pics of your progress? 8) 8)
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getting there but no pics yet, cause I haven't taken any rofl well I took several and sent to carl but those were on the phone and tiny!
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ok I am not making excuses but in my defense since I started this build I have to stop to build and sell 5 front end kits and 2 more frames and mine has had to take a back seat!! I made the whole chassis out of 1.25" od .120 1020 dom except for 2 tubes that are 1.5' od, I have my reasons lol. my head sticks up about 2" higher than the head rest and ya that's a lot of head room but I figure I am only one trip away from rolling it so I want neck stretching room. elbow to elbow is 60" and front track width with brakes and 2.5" offset beadlocks is 77" total length is 12' or exactly 143.75". 24" wheel travel with 27.5" ground clearance at full droop with the 6.70's tires. I am just finding time to get back on it but now I got 2 more front ends to build so it is what it is!! lol I do have a wharehouse of parts sitting around or atleast that's what it looks like!! lol also I made a simple center console as i have made for a few others in the past and I am and will be running 2.5 fox airs so critique away.....
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Looking good! Keep on keeping on. Some things come first. Trying to get in front of ya so yours looks like the copy. Lol. We can swap I shod be able to see over shock hoops. LMAO
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Nice, keep the pictures coming it makes it way easier to copy that way. I am one of those front end kits, nice peace for sure. Thanks ;)
I only had a couple of very minor points. Behind the seats there is two tubes that runs from the top to the middle of the tube you connect the seat beats to. When there are two tubes that run out to the bottom outer edges of the frame. If the rubber side is wrong side up I don't think those bottom two tubes will provide much reinforcement. You would more than like have to add some more tubes when you connect the engine but a tube from the middle of the floor to that crossing point could help support the weight of the nut behind the wheel and the bigger nut next to the nut behind the wheel if that wrong side up thing happens.
The second minor point is I would connect the two bent tubes togeither that are currently connecting the upper parts of the front end.
If you don't mind, where are you guys getting those tabs that you use for connecting the aluminum to the frame? It seems like allot of you guys are using those exact ones. The other question is where are you guys getting those rear carriers (sitting on the stack of tires in the back ground)?
Thanks,
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Nice, keep the pictures coming it makes it way easier to copy that way. I am one of those front end kits, nice peace for sure. Thanks ;)
I only had a couple of very minor points. Behind the seats there is two tubes that runs from the top to the middle of the tube you connect the seat beats to. When there are two tubes that run out to the bottom outer edges of the frame. If the rubber side is wrong side up I don't think those bottom two tubes will provide much reinforcement. You would more than like have to add some more tubes when you connect the engine but a tube from the middle of the floor to that crossing point could help support the weight of the nut behind the wheel and the bigger nut next to the nut behind the wheel if that wrong side up thing happens.
The second minor point is I would connect the two bent tubes togeither that are currently connecting the upper parts of the front end.
If you don't mind, where are you guys getting those tabs that you use for connecting the aluminum to the frame? It seems like allot of you guys are using those exact ones. The other question is where are you guys getting those rear carriers (sitting on the stack of tires in the back ground)?
Thanks,
thanks on the front end kit , i like them a lot too!! rofl rofl
on the center of the cross brace in the rear, yes I know but have to wait till I get the rear cradle in first and oil cooler. on the front cradle, yes I know and normally I run a tube straight across the frame but i was working on it one night and saw those two bent cut offs laying there, held them up and well you can see where I went with it!! ;) ;D once i get farther along there will be a connecting tube just had to wait till I got the steering shaft in.
the body tabs i use are from A&A manufacturing p/n# aa-563a 1/8" steel 1/4" hole.
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oh ya and the carriers you see on the rim are mine, I am getting ready to place another order at the laser cutters right soon but i have one adjustment to make to fit a deeper offset rim first plus i want 2 bolt patterns in there to fit 2 wheel bearings.
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ya I know what you mean carl and it's amazing how that extra 1.75" taller shock tower really stands out but i wanted those 12" stroke 2.5's and they are 4" taller than the 2.0's!! they don't make a 10" stroke in them or they would be on there way all ready!!! ;D
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Looken good. I'm glad to see those shocks aren't sitting in the gun display case anymore! rofl rofl rofl
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haven't gotten much farther than before but here's some update pics.
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Lookin damn fine!!!
Now get back to work!!!
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115" wheel base, 5" track width growth per side from full droop to axle level, 4.5" wheel base extension when lateral rods are parallel, 24" travel in front with 27" ground clearance and 22" in rear with 25" ground clearance w/o limit straps. axle are held at 36 degrees w/o limit straps. 2.25" id exhaust from factory header. emissions are capped with aftermarket intake and I bought the bazzaz system with auto tune for it.
enemy is testing the auto tune system for me right now ;D
chassis is 60.5" wide elbow to elbow with 8" head clearance, i tabbed out for fire wall as well. i need to set the other rear shock and the hood tubes then tear down and weld and paint for now and re-assemble.
1/8" axle plunge from full droop to full compression or bump.
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Lookin damn fine!!!
Now get back to work!!!
is that a better pic of the hood tubes instead of the cell pic ;D ;D I am trying to get back to work. ;D
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Tick tock tick tock! rofl rofl Looking good! Damn Korean cars keep slowin you down. thumb down
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Little birdie told me DS was drinking Jack and got his buggy naked the other night. LMAO LMAO rofl LMAO LMAO
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whoooo whooo whoooo jack and COKE thank you very much!! rofl rofl
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just drink the jack the coke will make you fat
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Did it take the whole 1.75 bottle to do that, with some peyote too? LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
Did you see the size of that chicken!!! rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
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no trans cause i was busy ducking!! LMAO
dropped it off at the sand blasters shop yesterday and they thought it might be ready this afternoon. then I need to haul it over to the powdercoaters, it's getting a coat of gloss black. when I get the time I will do the body wrap in red of some sort!! I am just going to work on getting it re-assembled and running for the trip. the side panels and hood might have to wait unil I get back from the trip, unless , they get it back to me before the 2 weeks they said they would have it!!
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2 weeks for powder coat? Your going to drive the wife nuts! Running it tight like me. Hell I am not even building a car. Just focking around with a computer!
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2 weeks for powder coat? Your going to drive the wife nuts! Running it tight like me. Hell I am not even building a car. Just focking around with a computer!
ya but obd1.5 is sort of a bastard pcm!! i never heard of it until your motor!!
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ya but obd1.5 is sort of a bastard pcm!! i never heard of it until your motor!!
Learned that there is no 1.5. Still OBD1 just has newer security. I ordered the chip adapter and am having a new chip made. Should have a hotter tune. No more cheap gas, 90 to 93. Changing when the fan comes on. Go to OBD2 systems if your doing this. More power, and a flashable computer. No chip bs.
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she fired off but don't have ass end on and on the ground yet so pics as soon as I do. ya ya not much of a build log!! rofl rofl rofl
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What the hell you got a week. Test drive at dunes! rofl kick rofl
Yeah me too. bs1
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sorry guys I am not much of an updater so this has not been much of a build log but here's a pic
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Congrats! Hope the shake down goes well.
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thanks yummi and it went better than expected! I need to re-valve the front shocks and I went with 2.5 fox air's all 4 corners this time. I need to replace the 8 inboard radius rods with 1" longer ones to minimize axle plunge. I also need to do a tune up on the motor a little and new clutch. the heat on the f150 cv was higher than I would like to see but the non plunge 930 was moderate. at full droop I am at 36 degrees so higher heat i guess would be expected but the f150 cv was to hot to hold your hand on. now I ran stock grease out of the box in that one so I will try some better grease in those to see if it reduces. i think I might go ahead and buy stubs and 4 more non plung 930s to replace the f150 cv if they fail. I was getting a banging from the axle plunge like a 3 lb hammer hitting the chassis. i adjusted out my rods to reduce available plunge from 3/4" to 3/8" and it stopped. other than that just a few little tweaks and she'll be good. of course I will build the rest of the body this winter as well. I did take the temp gun to the cv's and the f150 cv runs 45 to 50 degrees hotter than the 930 and on carls rail with dual a-arm it was opposite at roughly the same angle so i don't know what to make of that at this point. I do know I am tired of dipping my hands in cv grease though, that is one pro for uj's!! still thinking of switching back to uj's just want to give the cv's a fair shake first.
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eff uj's. ;) ;D ;D If you guys would not run the cars set so high thumb down the cv/uj angles would not be so radical. IMO, cars do not need to sit so high at ride height. A more moderate setting will cure a lot of issues and ,again only my opinion, handle better. If you're running at nearly full droop at ride height there is little droop left to follow the ground contours that keeps the tires in contact with the terrain longer. Even if jumps are your only passion I see no need to run the cars set so high at ride height. But ,to each his own,and to each it is the best way. :)
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My cv's run at a max of 29* approx ,at full droop. The non plunging cv's WILL go more (approx 40*) ,BUT, the design of a midboard naturally limits angle to approx 28*'s. So far as I'm concerned ,design your suspension around that limiting parameter and most ,if not all, issues disappear. Carl,Brian, I don't think you will ever find a cv boot that will give good service or be reliable running at 30 degrees plus for long periods of time as is seen with a car sitting near full droop at ride height. They work on the steering axles as designed to do at 40 degrees or so but only at slow ,full lock, steering conditions for just a turn. IMO,won't work well in the long run. Just another reason to lower the car and lessen cv/uj angles.
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I know what your saying and that is not entirely the case here. at full droop my axles are at 36 degrees now at ride height 26 degrees and just went and checked with it sitting in the garage w/o pass.
I gave up 6" of gc ( which is 18" of gc with the wife and I sitting in the rail) to smooth up the ride and with the 2.5 airs It works well and really like the ride. they soak it up good but do need prob 20 cc's of oil to complete it and since i forgot my shock oil I didn't get to tune them. my fronts need re-valved, faster compression and slower on rebound.
the little pressure needed to tq lock those splines is concerning and the axle pop once they slip under load is far more than concerning but it seems that 3/8" available plunge is the magic # or less to stop the axle pop noise which sounds like a hammer btw. I had no issues with boots just used he wrong clamps on the boots and those two boots slung grease, easy fix and actually one did right off the bat then I got it stopped 3 days later the other started. carl is right move it 1" and they slip easily!
my intention was to keep the travel and still get it in the trailer with paddles on and I did just that with room to spare. now if I continue with cv's I will change axle length from 28" to probably 32" and relieve a little more angle w/o giving up gc at full droop. probably re-vamp my carriers to utilize all of my 4.5" back space. they both have pro's and cons but I still pre-fer uj's after experiencing cv's again after soo many years. only had issues with uj's once out of all my rails and that was because they were the lowest quality from drive shaft super store and couldn't handle my 3.8 v-6 . none of the rockford's ever had issues!! they don't have the play or the mess but limited to 30* or atleast I would never go beyond that and i believe equal in weight to these cv's I have + less mess!! just my opinion after 10 years of uj's.
just letting others know what I have experienced first hand now but still in the experimental stage. you are correct there isn't a boot that will handle over 40* nor have a long life over at a constant over 30* and neither of us need such a thing. my high angle boots are just fine, I used a retaining flange that cover the edge of the bolts and carl didn't so you can clearly see where the boot made contact with the bolt heads and wore through till it ripped. it was surprising that no one down there sold high angle boots for 930's!! simple and easy fix for carl as well.
I know the higher the angle the higher the heat produced and that kills cv's as well and with uj's the higher the angle you don't get that heat but the weaker the uj's were the cv maintains strength. both have pro's and con's so it come down to the user. i do now remember why I went uj's!!
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I'm at 21* at ride height.
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I know what your saying and that is not entirely the case here. at full droop my axles are at 36 degrees now at ride height 26 degrees and just went and checked with it sitting in the garage w/o pass.
I gave up 6" of gc ( which is 18" of gc with the wife and I sitting in the rail) to smooth up the ride and with the 2.5 airs It works well and really like the ride. they soak it up good but do need prob 20 cc's of oil to complete it and since i forgot my shock oil I didn't get to tune them. my fronts need re-valved, faster compression and slower on rebound.
the little pressure needed to tq lock those splines is concerning and the axle pop once they slip under load is far more than concerning but it seems that 3/8" available plunge is the magic # or less to stop the axle pop noise which sounds like a hammer btw. I had no issues with boots just used he wrong clamps on the boots and those two boots slung grease, easy fix and actually one did right off the bat then I got it stopped 3 days later the other started. carl is right move it 1" and they slip easily!
my intention was to keep the travel and still get it in the trailer with paddles on and I did just that with room to spare. now if I continue with cv's I will change axle length from 28" to probably 32" and relieve a little more angle w/o giving up gc at full droop. probably re-vamp my carriers to utilize all of my 4.5" back space. they both have pro's and cons but I still pre-fer uj's after experiencing cv's again after soo many years. only had issues with uj's once out of all my rails and that was because they were the lowest quality from drive shaft super store and couldn't handle my 3.8 v-6 . none of the rockford's ever had issues!! they don't have the play or the mess but limited to 30* or atleast I would never go beyond that and i believe equal in weight to these cv's I have + less mess!! just my opinion after 10 years of uj's.
just letting others know what I have experienced first hand now but still in the experimental stage. you are correct there isn't a boot that will handle over 40* nor have a long life over at a constant over 30* and neither of us need such a thing. my high angle boots are just fine, I used a retaining flange that cover the edge of the bolts and carl didn't so you can clearly see where the boot made contact with the bolt heads and wore through till it ripped. it was surprising that no one down there sold high angle boots for 930's!! simple and easy fix for carl as well.
I know the higher the angle the higher the heat produced and that kills cv's as well and with uj's the higher the angle you don't get that heat but the weaker the uj's were the cv maintains strength. both have pro's and con's so it come down to the user. i do now remember why I went uj's!!
WHat carl experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to.
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WHat carl experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to.
ok so are you saying the splines aren't matched end for end or that the cv's aren't clocked properly? what carl experianced and what I checked on his rail is the same as mine other than the fact that his non plunge ran as hot as my outers and my outers were hitting the same temps his inner were so that was 180 * off but the tq lock was the same he just had less plunge than I but once I adjusted my rods out to 3/8" plunge the pop stopped but the ease of tq lock is still present just like carls so the only thing diff is the heat from end of the axle to the other. my np 930's are warm to the touch and the f150's are hot. I could take them apart and make sure I got them clocked properly but on the np 930's how should they be clocked? the plunging 930's make sense but these aren't the same.
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the other diff fabbr is your open diff and plunging axles!
ok since you don't have clips on both sides of the cv's , with plunging axles and open diff, w/o tq lock on the splines what keeps them from sliding down into the cups?
not trying to promote one or the other just trying to wrap my head around this. i can say with all the slop in the cv balls and splines they help a live rear end turn sharper on dirt or sand but not pavement yet.
although the axle pop is gone I can still feel a bind when on pavement and I am surprised with all that slop in them they don't break easier. I will have to play around with clocking them and I wonder if they need to be aligned like a uj side to side as well as end for end? don't know anyone with experience with this app, live rear with np 930's.
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WHat carl experienced is totally normal. You,on the other hand, have a deflection/bind/spline mismatch issue (any or all ) ,IMO,that is creating the abnormal torque"lock" and high heat that you experienced. Cv's just do not/will not act like that when not put in a bind or running massive HP. Correct that and the superior ;D ;D cv's will serve you quite well. My cv's are comfortably warm to touch even after a long run. My car is much heavier than yours and boosted also. Why are mine not experiencing your issues? No binding. I'm betting the "lock" you are having issues with is due to poorly matched splines creating localized load concentrations. This will happen when sourcing axles for cv's. Remember that not all splines are alike since there is no universal standard for splines. Each manufacturer is free to use their own specification since splines are dependent on shaft theoretical OD and ,again,there is no universal standard to adhere to.
lol we will see
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the other diff fabbr is your open diff and plunging axles!
ok since you don't have clips on both sides of the cv's , with plunging axles and open diff, w/o tq lock on the splines what keeps them from sliding down into the cups?
not trying to promote one or the other just trying to wrap my head around this. i can say with all the slop in the cv balls and splines they help a live rear end turn sharper on dirt or sand but not pavement yet.
although the axle pop is gone I can still feel a bind when on pavement and I am surprised with all that slop in them they don't break easier. I will have to play around with clocking them and I wonder if they need to be aligned like a uj side to side as well as end for end? don't know anyone with experience with this app, live rear with np 930's.
My axles still lock a bit if just sitting still and trans is in gear-just normal and has no effect when rolling just as yours . the axle can't slide into the cup.It hangs from the top/inner clip and since the star doesn't plunge that's all that's needed. The bottom/outer clip is actually unnecessary but I put it in anyway.
No need for clocking a cv.
Of course you feel them bind with a locked rear drive just as you do with a UJ. A cv does not/cannot overcome that- sloppy or not.
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lol we will see
;D ;D ;D ;D At the end of the day,both work. ;) I prefer cv's mainly because midboards demand their use. rofl
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So Fabr, what keeps the slip axles from seperating enough for the axle to bump the outter cup. I was thinking you must have clipped both sides of cv? But guess not.
I only ran clips on inside RCV 930 mainly because I didn't want to have to try pull the clip thru f150 cv's. I believe the f150 boot will have no problem running at the angles DS and I are asking. I ran a over cv boot on inner without the little boot flanges and that was my fault. Boot flange with f150 boot, which has a nice lip that snaps into groove, and a proper boot tie all should be good.
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My axles still lock a bit if just sitting still and trans is in gear-just normal and has no effect when rolling just as yours . the axle can't slide into the cup.It hangs from the top/inner clip and since the star doesn't plunge that's all that's needed. The bottom/outer clip is actually unnecessary but I put it in anyway.
No need for clocking a cv.
Of course you feel them bind with a locked rear drive just as you do with a UJ. A cv does not/cannot overcome that- sloppy or not.
this is part of what I was asking, with your slip shaft axles what keeps the slider from opening and sending you axle into the cup? I know plunging cv's produce some plunge and is what is referred to as axle pop but to much and you hit the cups. if the plungers need to be clocked then I would guess the np's do to. I know I notice and hear some off the wall things but getting them right makes them work a whole lot better!
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No cv needs clocked. That is a myth. I see what you are saying about my axles. Yes,they have a slip joint in them BUT they NEVER slip. They haven't budged a thousandth of an inch since installed. As a matter of fact a rock hit the outer slip section on one,denting it to where it cannot slip almost the very first day. In effect I have solid axles. So,nlo,my axles will not fall into the lower cv. You pop is due to other issues. My axles NEVER pop.here is no reason for them to. My plunging cv's I used to use never popped either. You have,IMO,other issues to find. Bottom line is that if you like uj's better then that is the way to go for you . The tire couldn't care less what we think or use to drive it.
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i do like uj's but i want to give these cv's a fair chance cause I can see a couple pro's i like but never hurts to have a back up plan!! ;D
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I'm not going to design anything with over 28 degrees from now on anyway. IMO ,if you can't get the travel you need within 28 degrees you're just asking for trouble trying for a few more inches of mostly unneeded travel anyway.
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if i can install 32" axles i will be getting close to 28 again. so we'll see what that does too.
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well I finally added grafix to the rail and had to re-route the exhaust from the side to under to remove 2 90* turns and now 14" shorter and from 2.25" od to 2.5" od and 2 45* that were cut down a little and routed into a s bend.
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also had to have a new fill neck with sealed cap welded to the tank to stop the leaks!! lol so I added two weld on bungs as well .....1 for a vent and the other for a return line when I need it ;D
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real pretty ;D 8)
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you have to lock her up to keep the dirty little boys away 4: :swig:
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Very nice! Looks great!
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:wwp: Oh ,wait! There were pics!!!! ;D ;D ;D Looking very nice indeed.
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lol I don't think it turned out as nice as the blue v6 rail but a close second and for $200 bux looks good to me lol
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you have to lock her up to keep the dirty little boys away 4: :swig:
lol
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Nice, she cleaned up real well.
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thanks crazyfastfab you gonna check it out in person?
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I forgot to ask, did you clear paint these? I have to finish the aluminum on my car which is driving me crazy. I am really starting the hate weld aluminum. anyway I am going to order my wrap soon.
And maybe on the trip but not looking so good.
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you just have to tell yourslelf.....i'm gonna make it i'm gonna make it....lol yes i did clear coat them as i did the last rail. the v6 rail turned out pretty nice imo and the clear coat really made them pop so i did it again. i bought the wrap off of ebay and the people i worked with this last time seem to be about the best folks i've dealt with yet and about mid range on price compared to all the auctions. he was willing to lay it out on the computer and send me a pic of how i wanted it before he made them.....none of the others have ever done that. rockstargraphix@hotmail.com he will sell outside of the auction as well and a little cheaper.
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Thanks, he is doing mine as well. Just got to finish this damn aluminum fab to get all the measurements. Dan is great to work with. He has made me a custom graphic and given me prints to look at as well. Really kool to work with.
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I'm going to have to look at your cars closer next time. To be honest I didn't pay enough attention last time,ds.
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I'm going to have to look at your cars closer next time. To be honest I didn't pay enough attention last time,ds.
not bad for the price and i spent a little more time on the v6 grafix so they turned out a little better but i like this too and haven't seen it in the sunlight yet. already reserved our spots at cowboy so we'll see you then. ya know if you could talk them into bathrooms at dueces......
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A good boy scout always comes prepared wherever he goes. I always have my outhouse handy.....
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oh i always bring a shovel and bag but hey...... rather not
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You don't just do the Carl thing????
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kick kick
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plat nice boys ;D :police: drowning
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kick kick
Bwahahhahahaaaa!!!!!! rofl ;D ;D
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that's better or not carl ;D
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i think fabr fills better :police:
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lol ya it will be a while before he lives that one down lol lol
well I re-built my exhaust pipe from the header back. when I origanly made the exhaust I had to use 2 90* mandrel bent tubes to run the exhaust in 2.25" od tube where it would fit......I have been fighting the motor not producing the power it should. well I have thought it could be several things so I have done some checking on the motor via timing valve lash comp test and checked the timing chain. I did discover two bad coils or weak atleast and worn out throttle body assembly and thought that would fix the problem since it just felt like the timing was off. enemy took it for a ride at the dunes and removed the pre cleaner to see if that would let more air in and have any effect, it did have a little seat of pants feel of improvement but the filter is soooo big I just can't believe that was the issue. I checked tps and it was off a bit so I adjusted that. now all of these changes did make a sizable diff but still not where it should be and the bazzaz auto tuner just doesn't want to add fuel it wants to pull fuel from stock map from the get go. finally saw it add fuel after the above changes and mods but not more that 15%. so decided ( after talking to a few guys that know a thing or two about busa's) and decided it has to be the exhaust. I took the stock header and used a 3" tube to merge them into 1 so I cut it there and went to 2.5" mandrel bent tube. I bought a 180* and cut it since I couldn't make a straight shot for the new placement I had to put a small jog down and back up in it to use my current tip which I like lol. so I cut 2 45* pieces then cut them down to close to 30* and rolled them on each other like a sink trap but shallow one at that. wrapped it after I welded it and fired the rail back up in auto tune mode. now it's been toooooo cold to make a run through the field so I just revved it to 8k rpm 3 times slowly to see what it wanted to do with the map......now on the last day of the last trip I started the auto tune and never checked it so when I pulled up the data it wanted to pull another 17% fuel so I erased all that and started it up to rev it. now just with that it wants to add 28% fuel up to 8k so when I get time I will have to make a run through the field to see some real results but looks promising so far!!!!
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I forgot I also reduced the length of the tail pipe 14"
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Why are you feeling you need to add so much fuel? You're not turbo'd.
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So the Bazaz is now recommending 28% fuel to achieve the user set target AFR in that RPM/Load cell. That's what I gather anywho..
I got to get over there and see it all back together! Looks awesome DS!
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Again,why so much.It's a stock busa with a different pipe.
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I think he/auto tune has been taking fuel, so my guess is that its just puttin the fuel back + a little. DS just reload the stock busa map and let it go from there. One in Baz may just be to far gone.
And between free camp nights and gate entree I'm slowly getting my ticket $$ back.
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well instead of applying the suggested lowered fuel rates I zero'd it out and restarted the auto tune when I free revv'd it in N. now I believe the exhaust was adding too much back pressure because of the two 90* elbow's. it now wants to add fuel rather than reduce it and at a max of 28% around 8k but smaller amouts up to that point. it has acted like the choke left half on to the last changes and adjustments then it was like the choke was 1/3 on so now I hope this pipe turns it off and I have an 02 sensor after the merge that the bazzaz uses and I have the afr set at 13.
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Personally,I think the auto tune is fubarred.
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It takes it reading from wide and O2. So it has to be leak free. At header and any welds. I'm sure there's a test for sensor itself too. But I'd say box itself is good since Jon used it wo problem.
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I agree.
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well the old exh was longer than stock on the bike and I went with 2.25 od origanly because that's what I could find for the aftermarket systems that merge all 4 into 1 rather than the factory duals. I have disconnected all of the bazzaz systems and no change. I have never until now sync'd the bazzaz fI controller to with the bazzaz. I did check before I did so and it was only reading 88 or 89 % throttle with there pre set values so I caliberated that and it now see's 100%. didn't know the function existed until I heard carl talk about it so thanks carl!! I got the shocks re-valved on the front and oil levels adjusted on front and rear so I hope to make a run around the pasture to see what the auto tune comes up with. I will reset to factory map before I do it and start over. the exh I just built a whole lot straighter and from and eye ball measurement about 4 to 6" longer than the aftermarket systems length. didn't have a tape to really measure and the owner of the bike wasn't around nor did I know him lol which is why I decided on 2.5" od this time and it's a guessing game for myself. I do have almost 50% of the parts to add a turbo and probably will next winter but for now I would like to just get this figured out just because lol the first time I set the tps I used the instrument cluster as the manual says.......never never do this as it is not accurate according to 2 multi meters , why I don't know but that made a diff after the first trip to LS getting that set right. also the manual does cover how to sync the tb's but it does not tell you in that section that once you have done that to check to see if the cold idle circuit lever runs the idle up to 3k rpm. that is covered in the cold idle circuit section and doesn't say anything about syncing the tb's but when you sync them if you take them all down to match the lowest you wind up raising the idle and now the cold idle circuit doesn't hit but 1800 rpm. don't know if that has any bearing on much other than itself but I use it on cold start ups and it is nice if it actually works lol the manual also says to sync them at 1150 rpm.......if I do that then at 3k they are off a bit so I have started setting them at 2k rpm and they hold to 3k and are off just a little at idle but they levels bounce at idle too much to get a smooth reading at 1500 rpm that smooth's out. it has always just acted like it wasn't getting enough air in and I know I can't compare to other models and makes engines but even fast noticed and commented that at 5k rpm mine labor's a lot harder than carl's zx12. the only test I have never performed on the engine was a leak down test on the cyl's everything else shows it on top end. I have read several posts about guys swapping instrument clusters because of something to do with speed limiters and something else I will have to re-read those but when I boost it the factory cluster will be gone anyway. I have read as much as I can trying to figure all this out and if it is the exh or was I will be happy lol
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Personally,I think you will find that if the tps is off even a little bit,nothing you do will help. TPS must be right before anything else.No exceptions. You also want to get it running right before you even think about adding the t'bo.Personally I don't see how the maps are off 20+ percent no matter what you did with the exhaust.IMO,you have an air leak in the exhaust somewhere.
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Also ,IMO,you are doing like I was early on. You're looking at too many things that COULD be an issue but not likely so. I'm betting that the engine would run just fine without the auto tuner. Admittedly the auto tune SHOULD make it run better but only after it runs right to atart with.Just my .02..
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correct on tp, that is why I set it with the multi meter last time, but didn't know about syncing it with the bazzaz. they pre set a value for it so it is important to sync it. I did disconnect the bazzaz last time to see if that was it and it wasn't. +1 on getting it to run right before t'bo that is why I have been doing all that I have, and each step has made a diff. like I said earlier ( I know it's not carb'd ) but it's been like a carb with the choke half on, then after the tb's and inj's and coil's and setting tps with multi meter, like it was 3/4 off.
well I just took it for a run through the field and what a diff! I won't know for sure until I get it out on the sand but I can now ( on flat ground) take off by feathering the clutch with almost not throttle where I couldn't do that before it would stall unless I rev'd to 3k to take off. I did clean the o2 sensor while I had it off with some map sensor cleaner. the throttle response is back in N or while driving, so another plus. I made 4 pass's in first and second. hit rev limiter at 11200 rpm in 1st but never took it over 9k or soo in 2nd, cause apperantly this rail out, of all I have had, spooks the cattle over here and sends then running! the first time they went through the fence behind the barn 1/2 mile away!! the neighbors cattle are up by his house right now so I have to keep it toned down. I will pull the data off the auto tuner after bit cause i'm helping do brakes right now or I should say supervising lol. I let it hit operating temp before I made the runs, where before was cold fire on a cold night free revving in N. everything I have replaced was because it didn't wring out to spec, not because I guessed it could be. now the two coils that were bad were barely under spec but I put 4 new ones in to be safe.
kept the two good old ones for spares. I did all before the last trip, besides the exh. also shaved 1.7 lbs ( per the advertisement) off clutch with billet back tq limiter, housing etc etc standard performance parts. before the last three trips. I will have to buy there steel one if I t'bo it since the aluminum one isn't rated for boost.
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when I disconnected the bazzaz enemy flashed the pcm back to factory specs also so both of them together made not diff. so far the results have been promising and I can see how longer than stock and throw in two 90* bends where stock didn't have but like 1 35*? would add back pressure. time will tell and the first trip enemy tried changing the switching point ( from iap to tps) down to 3k rpm from I think 4500 rpm. you can tell when it switch's since 3k rpm is where I am driving through the camp ground. you cannot tell on the sand cause I blow past soo fast . I have checked all the sensors on the motor and that is when I found the coils. I also tried the factory air box just to see and it was quieter lol but no diff. when I put the air box back on I accidentally hooked the vac line to the diaphragm in the factory air box up to the iap with the bivalve in line and that makes them run like $hit and absolute $hit if you can get it to idle lol.
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pic
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you will have hide from carl so he can not roost the pretty thing
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that's funny cause if you watch the video....apparently eyes I started that chain reaction rofl
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carl was just showing how to do it & getting it done rofl
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rofl rofl well he definitely showed me up with his roosts! rofl rofl rofl
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cari's ddddman LMAO
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rofl rofl well he definitely showed me up with his roosts! rofl rofl rofl
Well,he definitely SHOWED me his roost ability while teeter tottering on a dune ridge. WHat's it been ? 2-3 years ago? I'm still picking sand out of areas I didn't know the human body even had.
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rofl rofl
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Personally,I think you will find that if the tps is off even a little bit,nothing you do will help. TPS must be right before anything else.No exceptions. You also want to get it running right before you even think about adding the t'bo.Personally I don't see how the maps are off 20+ percent no matter what you did with the exhaust.IMO,you have an air leak in the exhaust somewhere.
ok so I have been thinking about this too........ I cannot hear an exhaust leak and I know from my merged tube I made back to the tip doesn't have any leaks now or before because I was very careful to check the welds. 1 thing I have never checked is leaks in the crush rings on the header or the block offs for the emission ports. I will have to remove the cover I have there and spray some windex on those points to check them. I only say this because I have had the headers off twice and those crush rings are the original and evertime I mess with the tail pipe it moves the header up and down a little at the back of the motor. not much just a wiggle which if you look you can see them rock a hair up at the head and if they are leaking slightly they could leak especially at higher rpm up there. now a couple times in all the runs I have made, I have seen air blow out the air cleaner and pre clean balloons up but only a couple times on decal. I cannot remember the conditions when that happened ie. rpm, start up, free rev etc etc. back when this happened I thought it was a timing issue which is what prompted checking all. now a few times if it fires off and dies it will back fire and blow out the intake. it does not like the real cold air on cold start up! it went from like 76* yesterday to 20* and I had it outside all day and pulled it in after dark and I didn't know if I was going to get it to idle lol had give it throttle to keep it going to get it in but fired up just fine after being in the heated garage all night! lol just looked at the suggested map which is probably hosed after firing up in the cold last night and revving it it soo high by accident and now +7 to 15% and pulling fuel in other areas. I could smell the fuel as the wind carried it by last night. I will check for leaks in the ex and 0 the map to stock and set it to auto tune again at the dunes when I can work it through all.
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ok so I have been thinking about this too........ I cannot hear an exhaust leak and I know from my merged tube I made back to the tip doesn't have any leaks now or before because I was very careful to check the welds. 1 thing I have never checked is leaks in the crush rings on the header or the block offs for the emission ports. I will have to remove the cover I have there and spray some windex on those points to check them. I only say this because I have had the headers off twice and those crush rings are the original and evertime I mess with the tail pipe it moves the header up and down a little at the back of the motor. not much just a wiggle which if you look you can see them rock a hair up at the head and if they are leaking slightly they could leak especially at higher rpm up there. now a couple times in all the runs I have made, I have seen air blow out the air cleaner and pre clean balloons up but only a couple times on decal. I cannot remember the conditions when that happened ie. rpm, start up, free rev etc etc. back when this happened I thought it was a timing issue which is what prompted checking all. now a few times if it fires off and dies it will back fire and blow out the intake. it does not like the real cold air on cold start up! it went from like 76* yesterday to 20* and I had it outside all day and pulled it in after dark and I didn't know if I was going to get it to idle lol had give it throttle to keep it going to get it in but fired up just fine after being in the heated garage all night! lol just looked at the suggested map which is probably hosed after firing up in the cold last night and revving it it soo high by accident and now +7 to 15% and pulling fuel in other areas. I could smell the fuel as the wind carried it by last night. I will check for leaks in the ex and 0 the map to stock and set it to auto tune again at the dunes when I can work it through all.
! All the other places you are sure are not leaking need to be rechecked also. The area in the center of where the 4 tubes come together in the collector and the collector to tubes area is especially difficule to test out or to even see if it is fully welded. I would take the exhaust off,plug the header flange ports,stand it on end and fill it with water. Then put it back on if it passes this crude water test with new crush rings. Like anything,start off being absolutely positive the basics are perfect. You MAY have who knows what other issues but this MUST be right for the autotuner to work.
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The air cleaner ballooning may or may not be an issue.Call me sometime. I just typed almost a zillion words on this lost the text. Not going to retype it.
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The air cleaner ballooning may or may not be an issue.Call me sometime. I just typed almost a zillion words on this lost the text. Not going to retype it.
tried sat 11 am but you were gone lol the ballooning when it has happened but usually ( if i remember correctly cause i really didn't pay attention ) was on start up when it fired and died. but i have heard it back fire twice on decel in the last few trips.
also the header where it goes into 1 actually it takes two into 1 then it merges those 2 into one and crossed over itself factory into dual exhaust. i cut the header right before the cross which is more oval than round and welded the collector on at that point or what i call a collector. my exhaust from that point is a slip over that you actually have to pound on and i have a band clamp securing it then and now so i could remove it at that point.
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Is the slip before or after the O2 sensor? If after ,how far? That may well be the source of O2 errors. I suspect O2 errors IF it would run correctly without the auto tune but you say it does not run right with or without autotune. Right? I still do not believe your exhaust to be the source of the drivability issues you have.
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o2 sensor was 10" past that seam before and now 5" past. the auto tuner isn't making it worse but maybe a little better but the flat spot has been there since day one. all the little things i have done have made a sizable diff and now with the pipe even better so far but on the sand will tell. i think i'll pull the header loose and get a new set of crush sleeves just to........if they were or are leaking, then there should be a trail on some part of them indicating this, i would think. it has always just acted like the choke was partially on like i have said but the funny part is the power has always felt like it was all at high rpm with no mid and the mid is what has been missing this whole time imo. i wonder if the emmisions block off plates could be leaking if that would mimick the same?
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I believe that flat spot is the same flat spot I had that the lawn dart cured. I suggest a nose dive next time to LS. ;D ;D
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Have you used an analog multimeter to check the TPS? I say analog so you can see how smooth the sweep is across the full range of idle to WOT. If it is not smooth as silk across the full sweep,ANY jerkiness in the sweep, ,there is your issue. Possibly,quite possibly. I had to replace mine due to this.
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Have you used an analog multimeter to check the TPS? I say analog so you can see how smooth the sweep is across the full range of idle to WOT. If it is not smooth as silk across the full sweep,ANY jerkiness in the sweep, ,there is your issue. Possibly,quite possibly. I had to replace mine due to this.
i'll pass on the lawn dart but thanks for the suggestion LMAO
i bought an anolog multimeter just for that purpose and it does operate like it should. it is the replacement for the original tps. flat spot may be a bad way to describe it....it was like the timing wasn't coming in for the punch the motor should have it was almost like the fuel map was off or like low end was in mid range and mid range was at high range. don't know how to describe it but that's what prompted me to stop using the cluster to set as the manual states and go to the multi meter because that was my first thought of how that could happen. out of all the motors i have ever installed especially on my own this is the first time i have had an issue and the first one i didn't make a straight exh pipe for until now so that was another reason behind the change.
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The cluster is only accurate at the exact idle speed specified. Mine is on the high side in the cluster all the time and runs fine.
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I assume you are moving the tps very slowly to look for any deadspots?
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yep, 3 times
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Just for grins and giggles,do a leak down and a compression test.
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I do know that the TPS must be calibrated in the Bazzaz. Not sure if Baz is only reading XX% if thats all the throttle motor will see?? But you said it did same wether it was hooked or not, so? I'd spray for intake leaks with carb cleaner, but smoke works pretty well on exhaust side. Can see if it pulls it in exhaust.
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i have done a comp test and it was in very good shape but never did a leak down test. I can but I am pretty pos that is not the problem. it feels like something that has been effecting timing or producing back pressure but sat's little run I could tell some sizable diff's from what little I did do. I am going to ( as soon as I can ) check to make sure the header bolts are tq'd right and are not loose. like I said the tps has been set to bazzaz this time and this is the first time I have set the tps with an anolog multi meter the other time was with a menards $9.99 multi meter lol does ok but not the most accurate compared the the anolog.
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I do know that the TPS must be calibrated in the Bazzaz. Not sure if Baz is only reading XX% if thats all the throttle motor will see?? But you said it did same wether it was hooked or not, so? I'd spray for intake leaks with carb cleaner, but smoke works pretty well on exhaust side. Can see if it pulls it in exhaust.
with or without made no diff at the dunes or home. and bazzaz is pre set with tps values for closed and wop positions until you re-calibrate it. that could also be an issue.
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I don't believe the exhaust has a thing to do with it. UNLESS your primary tube size is too big. 1 5/8" max . Didn't you post the primary tube and merge tube size somewhere?
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no i don't know the size.... they are the factory headers...... you don't think to 90 degree bends in 2 slightly diff directions could produce back pressure? i'm not sure how much but i think they could. i know what happens when there is not enough as well. still not pos that is it totally but i think it definately adds to the problem.
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I think there is another cause to your dead spot. If it were exhaust related back pressure it would not get better at higher rpms and only be an issue somewhere in the mid range. IMO.
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mid is where i notice the most but it is a problem accross the board like it's all been shifted but the most noticabele is mid. i don't know how to describe it any better than that it's a feeling i know given the other 4 or 5 mc powered rails i have had for myself
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Conversely back pressure would not be enough at low rpm to be an issue......................I still think you are chasing the wrong rat.
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From when I drove it, the description I would give of how it ran...It acts like you are pulling a trailer with it.. From midrange on up to redline, it struggles like its is starving for air in or it cant get it out and dragging an anchor ... or your timing is totally retarded..
IMO the exhaust is definitely a factor which I think you may have helped tremendously by smoothing it out. I say this because simple changes on the bike with either slip-ons or full system swap requires major retunning to get the fueling where it needs to be. And some systems out there killed performance altogether. I suppose having 2 fuel maps and 6 timming maps could be a factor in that lol
A Couple other fixes for it that may help.. ;D Just throw the wallet at it!
http://store.schnitzracing.com/motec-m130-ecu-kit-suzuki-gsx1300r-hayabusa-02-07/ (http://store.schnitzracing.com/motec-m130-ecu-kit-suzuki-gsx1300r-hayabusa-02-07/)
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I did order a new set of crush rings for the header at the head. these aren't stock and I thought I would try them. they look like they are for a car but a few posts swear by them lasting longer and giving more for a better seal also start off thicker so we'll see. I didn't think they were a high wear item but the way a few posts read on the Suzuki site they can be. I normally have some pretty sensitive hearing and I would think I could hear an exh leak but with that cover and the noise of the motor maybe not?!
wonder if the speed sensor or air intake temp sensor or stock cluster could be effecting it? air intake temp sensor is in air box which is aluminum with plenty of open air to it. speed sensor is hooked up too. i'll just have to play around with it at the dunes a bit more.
enemy that is still an option I would just like to figure this out first but who knows rofl
and that's a good description of what it has been doing but like I said it now takes off almost with no throttle about 2k rpm lower than before that much I can say for sure after my run sat. feels like more bottom end.
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that sure is a pretty pic!!!!
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Mine runs like crap with the IAT sensor in the airbox. With it just lying in open air it runs right. I think the IAT may be reading a too low temp for whatever reason and adding fuel. I have tried several different IAT sensors.They all do the same. Try taking the IAT sensor out of the airbox,leave the IAT connected so it is sensing actual air temp and not the airbox air temp. Mine will absolutely run like crap if the IAT sensor is IN the airbox and not in actual air temp. My IAT sensor is zip tied to the wiring harness in open air.
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My IAT is also zip tie to free air.
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I'm thinking that the high velocity air in the small air boxes we use is actually cooling the intake air to a point that the ECM is throwing in extra fuel when not needed due to the inaccurate IAT reading throwing the afr off and since there is no O2 sensor feeding info to the ecm it doesn't know it's over fueling.
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in a cold start up and idle mode would be like the choke is on wound't it!?
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It would be enriching the AFR across the board. Yes similar to a choke being partially on.
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well I will play around with it at the dunes a bit and I got the front shocks re-valved so i'm hoping this is the last time for that as well. it's always fun and as long as I have a smooth ride and good weather with good folks it's all good lol this is an irritating problem though and like I said with each part or mod it has gotten better so none the less it all needed to be done. the nice thing about the bazzaz is you can see what does work and what doesn't with the logger and fuel map. it is a nice tool to have for sure. It is not building maps based on each gear but rather has a fifth gear map applied for all gears, it's either that or a trd inline with the tps which I have one of those too. this issue was there before the flash though so it wasn't that.
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I wonder what the atmospheric pressure sensor could do to it? I did not check that one and it is mounted in my electrical box. I have also wondered if the computer could have a something left in it from a previous flash but enemy say when he flash's it that it automatically goes back to stock before you can reflash.
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Ya I need to take time to add some bump valving both front and rear but have been so busy with new buggy (actually making a lot of progress ,need to get pics),new house progress and busy @ work............well,you know the story.
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I wonder what the atmospheric pressure sensor could do to it? I did not check that one and it is mounted in my electrical box. I have also wondered if the computer could have a something left in it from a previous flash but enemy say when he flash's it that it automatically goes back to stock before you can reflash.
Yes ,it is important that it function correctly. Why is it in the electrical box?
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Yes ,it is important that it function correctly. Why is it in the electrical box?
easy location and it fit lol i drilled a hole through the box's on all the other rails sand let the snorkle part stick out on those but didn't think it would be a big deal on this one, figured it would read pressure in the box or out since the box has larger holes in the bottom for ventilation.
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If that box,when the buggy is traveling or even sitting still, sees anything other than a correct atmos air pressure it will fubar everything. Is there a possibility that the box is pressurizing with a high pressure area or by wind blowing into it? If it were me it would be in open air only.
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I mounted atmospheric pressure sensor in elec box, but drilled hole and sensor is outside. I could see the box pressure being off, like ram air?
Drill a hole and stick it thru, bam easy. Zip tie IAT sensor out of airbox, duct tape hole for test. See if cows run faster on this pass. ;D
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well the problem has always been from idle to wot but most noticeable in midrange and temps outside have never made a change either but the box is enclosed except for the 1.5" holes the wires come through but the electrical does put off some good heat in there!
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I will pull those out of the box to test at the dunes if the problem is still there. it snowed again last night so no more rides around the field for a while lol
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Just remember a busa is a finicky SOB. Just think of it as another wife..........................
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lol well it has been consistant at not running up to capacity lol
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ya know i am going on 3 years with my latest build and the funny thing is i always try and check bolts and all systems as best i can. i have been fighting a few things on it power wise that i have high hopes i have gotten fixed over the winte,r but the trip will tell for sure. last week when i was cleaning up and setting up for my daughters college graduation party, i strapped the suspension together to load it in the toy hauler so it was out of the way and all the kids didn't climb all over it. when i went to stand up i grabbed a paddle on the tire and the wheel began to move a bit. now it has always had some drag on it and i have straightened axle and checked bearings looked over parts etc etc many many times to find the drag. always figured it was the higher angle on the cv's. hell i even spread the brake pads once to see if it was that of course looking back i did that while the axles were up, the higher angle does add drag at full droop btw. now when i put the axles up they do spin more free and the rail has always rolled down the drive on it's own if you let it. well when i went to get up i heard this quiet pop noise. i spun it again and found that all the bolts on the rear rotor were a little loose and the rotor is slightly warped. it was dragging a bit and i had forgot to put locktite on the bolts when i installed them. so i took it off and then added locktite and lock washers and tighten it all up again. i can now grab the wheel and spin it about 30 to 40% easier than before. the bolts never looked loose and the caliper has held onto the rotor all this time and it never felt loose hell you couldn't wiggle it in and out before either but it was slipping on the bolt holes and moving out of round. i set it pretty tight to it highest tolerance for the caliper housing and there is a slight mark in side the caliper from where it has rubbed on the housing from spinning egg shaped. the little problems can have some pretty big effects. rofl rofl and one really feels stupid when we find them especially when we have plenty of experiance rofl rofl
all of the adjustments i have made to the motor thus far have made a diff as well rather small diff's but none the less noticeable ones.
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Don't feel bad. I found my left wheel bearing loose by about 1 turn. It even has a pinch bolt adjuster on it! Between that and the steering uj splines that were loose and finally wore completely off the car feels like new again. LOL!!!
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so i have always had an issue with the 2001 busa engine or atleast it has never been as responsive as i believe it should be. now i know i have always run 1000 cc's before and on lighter rails with lighter smaller wheel combos. i understand rotating mass effects and gearing. this rail is geared the deepest out of all the rails i have ever built too, 13/70 vs 13/62. i have gone to 15" bead lock rims and 1100 paddles with 2.5" wheel spacers because i chose 28" axles and should've gone with 31" ers. now the solid block of aluminum that makes up the wheel spacer is not as heavy as a steel one but still some weight to it but the 15" rim vs a 12" rim is 20% heavier atleast. the paddle tires.....1100 vs sandblaster 26's are quite a bit heavier. with the 12" rim and blaster 26 i think that wheel combo weighed in at about 22 lbs or so but this 15 bead lock and 1100 weigh in at 43 lbs or so. not sure how accurate the scale was that i used, stand up scale not a bathroom floor scale. so that will def need more gear reduction.
however, my 2001 busa was still a 16 bit ecu and i wanted to use the bazzaz system which they discontinued them for 99 to 2001 because they were inconsistent with the 16 bit systems where the 02 to 07's were 32 bit systems. so i decided to convert mine to 32 bit. now according to the busa forums the 2001 wire harness came wired correctly for this conversion so no wires needed to be swapped per what i read. i did check the first 4 wires in the list against my harness just to check and those were in the correct pins so i didn't go any farther. i purchased an ecu and flywheel off an '05 busa and changed them out. now enemy and carl and fast can attest to this, my engine has never run quite right and as fast put it " labors hard at or about 5k rpm and up" enemy " feels like your always towing a boat" carl ( my favorite) " should've bought a zx kawi engine" or such, lmao . now i have checked everything on this motor and tested everything but a leak down test. i changed the complete throttle body assembly because it was worn badly and installed the 2005 set because it used a diff tps sensor, i changed the coils to 2005 coils because 2 of mine tested at the bottom of the scale so they were bad anyways. i even checked tappet gaps. so timing, valve lash, compr, timing gears and chain, spark, fuel delivery, inj's and intake boots are all good! well within spec and pretty much in the middle of the scale to the top side. i even rebuilt my exhaust and opened it up larger and removed 2 90* bends thinking that was it. now each piece i changed or adjusted did make a diff on feel of power and accel but that flat spot has never gone away and my throttle response as far as how snappy it was sitting at idle and goosing it , was just never the same as when i first turned the motor on in the rail. now enemy was there back then and can attest to how tight that throttle snap was! i have always wondered if the after market air box i installed did that cause i changed it before i lost the throttle snap. i have tried setting the tps diff and syncing it with the bazzaz and diff stacks in the air box. 3 diff configurations in the air box to be exact and you can hear a diff in the exh with all 3 diff configs btw! well i was searching the busa forum for some info related to this issue and came across the post i followed to convert the system and so i re-read it.
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/maintenance-do-yourself/166099-16-bit-ecu-32-bit-conversion-how.html (http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/maintenance-do-yourself/166099-16-bit-ecu-32-bit-conversion-how.html)
i read that the 2 wires i never checked were crank shaft position wires and that the 02 to 07 use a reverse polarity vs 99 to 01 so last weekend i checked and sure enough my 01 harness has them configured to the 99 to 01 so i re- pinned them in the connector. now i am surprised that the motor even ran with the crank sensor wires crossed and the wire diagram as well as every thing i can find does state 1 pos and 1 neg signal from the sensor. there are posts on the busa forum that they do run either way and a few that state they swapped them and felt no diff. now those posts are old and those people may have deleted there clutch switch's as well and many didn't know back then that you couldn't simply twist the wires together or it would lock you in a N map which is a flat spot from 5k to 8 k rpm as a few reported. this is where my flat spot has always seemed to be so i double check and test my switch for the clutch and it works perfectly so not the problem. i also re-installed the blocking diode back into my side stand switch when i wired the engine so i know that's not it either. well yesterday i got back on the rail since i'm heading to LS soon and i also change the exh gaskets cause i thought i had a leak. that was a real joy lol now that it's all back together i decided to syc the tb's again and of course turn it on to make sure it would even start after reversing the polarity from the crank sensor. it started right up faster than it ever does cold! idles better and my throttle snap is back, twitch the throttle and it is right now! i won't know for sure until i can load it down in the sand if it makes the diff i am looking for but for now it's atleast looking pos and i pre-fer to look on the bright side lol ;) ;) the only reason i meantioned the posts from the guys on the busa forum that may not have deleted there clutch switch's correctly ( don't know why you anyone would do that on a stock bike) is because and this is just a theory but if they didn't do it right and there ecu's were stuck in a N map then the diff would never be felt. there are companies that make little plug ins to delete the clutch switch so the engine only starts in N and also for the kickstand and tip over sensor and so on.
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You got the Cliff notes on that?
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You got the Cliff notes on that?
lol check out the link i posted and it will make more sense. in a nut shell the conversion is to step up to a faster processor so that the ecu can be flashed directly and/or a bazzaz can be used with auto tuner. i have the bazzaz and auto tuner. they don't make them for the 99 to 01 busa'a cause the ecu's are 16 bit systems. the link i posted shows how to re pin the ecu connectors to correct the 99 and 2000 harness to the 02 to 07 harness wiring. almost all articles state that the 2001 was a stand alone bastard so to speak and that the harness didn't or doesn't need to be altered for the conversion and that it is already wired correctly. well when you compare the wiring diagrams for 2001 and 2005 the crank wires are reversed compared to my harness. pos and neg 2 wire sensor. so in 02 , i guess, they reversed polarity on the crank sensor when they went to the diff flywheel. the newer fly wheels have more teeth to read and the cranks sensor sends almost double the pulse's ( close to double ) i wouldn't have even thought it would even start if wired wrong but it does start and rev both ways. i am hoping that with the wires reversed , my flat spot (which i believe feels like a timing issue) will be gone. some agree and say it does make the diff and some say it made no diff for them. the same flat spot is also described with a N fuel map which happens not only when in N but when you simply take the clutch switch wires and twist them together. the clutch switch wires have to be separated once in gear or you'll be stuck in a N map which is diff timing and keeps you from hitting rev limit in most cases. i wonder if those that said it made no diff were one's that just twisted the clutch wires together in which case they prob wouldn't have felt a diff. here's another one for you, i can't find the article again but it read that when the low fuel light is on then the ecu also defuels a bit to keep you from burning the engine up and to conserve fuel until fill up. now that article didn't provide proof of that but that is what he claimed. my low fuel light has been on until the last trip due to an improperly mod'd sending float arm lol i fixed that before the last trip. didn't make a diff that i could tell as far as the flat spot.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFJlTfHyrUk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFJlTfHyrUk)
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL3oeWZBECA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL3oeWZBECA)
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pause the video at 1.00 and read the dyno. you'll have to expand the screen. 296 ft lbs tq at about 9300 rpm? 200 ft lbs tq at about 7600 rpm? kind of how I read it. look the lower afr gauge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXHPbPDT0A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXHPbPDT0A)
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where I would like to get mine lol looks like peak tq is at 7k rpm? 239 ft lbs tq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQ5rQEC-54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQ5rQEC-54)
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Look the lower afr gauge..
That is the 12.5 most busa guys seem to like and target under boost.. Personally I like it a tad fatter for heavy cars and safety - 12.0-12.3 for me @12 psi. Very happy motor :)
That 553'r would be a friggin monster! Expensive to feed, but a friggin monster!
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I usually run the turbo busa in the 4-8K rpm range. Plenty of grunt there. All higher rpm gives is a longer time between shifts.
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I usually run the turbo busa in the 4-8K rpm range. Plenty of grunt there. All higher rpm gives is a longer time between shifts.
hopefully I will be as well on the spring trip ;) ;)
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well enemy I asked you what kind of tq they turbo'd busa's put out at the higher psi and it looks good!! I noticed in the one video that the guy rolls into the throttle a little bit then goes wot but the motor takes a little longer to go wot and I'm not talking split seconds.
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here you go enemy turbo busa on e85
garth2851 year ago
in reply to eamonnhayabusa069
Running about 7psi and stock pistons but .080 spacer plate. Stock timing as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=097vyNe_RzY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=097vyNe_RzY)
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Damn, that was a nice run at the end!
:'( I miss that bike..
Would be nice to know what it did with the boost brought up to levels that we install the spacer plate for..
14 psi on a plate motor is considered "Safe" by most on 93 octane. I dont like the idea of doing that on stock rods for long though ;D
e85...
I need a bigger fuel tank....
Dammit DS.
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And rods..
And pistons..
And a spare Jeffco ;D
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Damn, that was a nice run at the end!
:'( I miss that bike..
Would be nice to know what it did with the boost brought up to levels that we install the spacer plate for..
14 psi on a plate motor is considered "Safe" by most on 93 octane. I dont like the idea of doing that on stock rods for long though ;D
e85...
I need a bigger fuel tank....
Dammit DS.
you guys work out a good 14 psi low compression E85 FI map . My tank is big enough. 12 gallons. ;)
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And rods..
And pistons..
And a spare Jeffco ;D
I have the cure for that jeff...............................
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Has it been approved by the FDA? ;D
Don't make any cure claims! Big pharma has that racket cornered, they don't like competition LOL
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4 years now with no issues. As you know I hammer it in the whoops anytime I see any. I just love those things.Wish I could let it hang out on the trail to Dueces Wild still.Those rangers know me too well there. I try to mostly behave now after the last time I was caught. He wasn't nearly as mellow as the one Carl saw me meet a couple years ago. LOL!!!! How many days is it now with the jeff? Sorry,couldn't help it. My bad.
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091 vs jeff hmmmmmmmm gg: the observations might be interesting
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Same weight and a hell of a lot more durable. About the same price or a bit less if deleting 1-2. If I were to do more ,it will be an 094 tho for the beefy reverse compared to the 091. My 091 however has been in reverse quite a few times filling the seats with sand. I don't recommend it tho.
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I do like both for diff reasons but one has proved more robust than the other however the jeffco seems to be holding strong at this point. any ill effects from turning the motor sideways so far?
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WHat ill effects could there be? The jeff now has 2 short trips on it? Are all the upgrades done to it now standard features ???
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The jeff now has 2 short trips on it? Are all the upgrades done to it now standard features ???
3 trips to the dunes and many many miles driven around home. It is currently upgraded to the latest generation, as far as I know anyway.. They aren't exactly a wealth of info unless you persistently ask for it.
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THe question is still whether all the upgrades you paid for are now standard . If not ,and you have to pay for them,what would the current cost be with all the upgrades?
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THe question is still whether all the upgrades you paid for are now standard . If not ,and you have to pay for them,what would the current cost be with all the upgrades?
very good question......
I have always wondered about the oil pan and oil from turning the motor sideways but since you are asking " what ill effects " then I guess that answers my question ;) must be none
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now both have suffered from oil puking out and both have been cured with the same cure!! lol lets weigh pro's and con's........... I'll go first jeffco compact with narrower flange width
091 bulky with wider flange stand off jeffco keeps the motor straight which looks good 091 turns the motor making more room for turbo's and/or exh and keeps pistons from going threw you head if she lets go. in theory anyway. jeffco uses a simple chain connection 091 uses a custom top secret adaptor but a proven one now. ok your guys turn......... gg: fyi I think both have a place but lets compare
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091, Silent running, no chain noise. Really like that!
Jeffco.. $3500...Well, $4000 now.
Boom...
$1200...
Boom...
Have to look at my check book for last boom $$.
It has been a very expensive R&D trans.
Happy to say this last trip was the very first time that It wasn't constantly on my mind wondering if its going to make the next pass. Sure does make the dunes more enjoyable!
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it sounded good didn't puke oil and doesn't seem to have any real play like it's getting ready to go out!! rev would be nice
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I have to recheck but IIRC they are almost the same flange to flange and the 091/094 has a reverse with multiple final drive gear ratios.
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Depends on what you call bulky. Lay that jeffrco down akongside an 091 and you will be amazed at how similar in size they really are. The weight is practically the same.
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came across this in the hayabusa forum.....anyone ever heard of this?
What about using toluene? It's even referenced above on this same thread. I've used for years in my truck and Vmax. It used to be cheap, it's now $15 a gallon around here. You can get it at Sherwin-Williams and other paint/industrial supply stores. I know it can be used to raise the octane level of gasoline. It's even the main ingredient in many fuel system cleaners and used as an industrial cleaning solvent.
In the link below they talk about using it in turbocharged Formula 1 engines and other octane hungry engines.
Another product that I know many mechanics swear by is BG 44K fuel system cleaner, but it's not cheap, about $20 for an eleven once can and may be hard to find.
This site has a bunch of info on toluene as an octane booster:
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html (http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html)
""Q: How did you discover using toluene?
A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.""
Oh and as noted on that site, "don't drink even a little of it"
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Toluene is in a lot of crap, from glue to gas.
You want some real fun, pick up some propylene oxide.
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for the busa guys
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/electrical-mods/161358-gen1-busa-gear-position-indicator.html (http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/electrical-mods/161358-gen1-busa-gear-position-indicator.html)Won't work with a TRE though. Cool as hell however.
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also
http://www.wasuperlites.com/forum_2/showthread.php?tid=594 (http://www.wasuperlites.com/forum_2/showthread.php?tid=594)
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came across this in the hayabusa forum.....anyone ever heard of this?
What about using toluene? It's even referenced above on this same thread. I've used for years in my truck and Vmax. It used to be cheap, it's now $15 a gallon around here. You can get it at Sherwin-Williams and other paint/industrial supply stores. I know it can be used to raise the octane level of gasoline. It's even the main ingredient in many fuel system cleaners and used as an industrial cleaning solvent.
In the link below they talk about using it in turbocharged Formula 1 engines and other octane hungry engines.
Another product that I know many mechanics swear by is BG 44K fuel system cleaner, but it's not cheap, about $20 for an eleven once can and may be hard to find.
This site has a bunch of info on toluene as an octane booster:
http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html (http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html)
""Q: How did you discover using toluene?
A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.""
Oh and as noted on that site, "don't drink even a little of it"
Before the ready availability of quality,consistent race gas, toluene was a common additive for all the racers. A buddy worked @ the Sinclair refinery in Tulsa. He would bring drums of the stuff home to make his own brew.This was in the mid 70's. The issue is that it is very hard for the common person to know just what the brew's octane really was. He could because he took his brew to the refinery lab and did a knock test on it. I don't feel it wise to screw around with concocting your own brew without a buddy to run a knock test for you.
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I know differ dyno results can differ from dyno to dyno a bit but here is something interesting to read in this post with the two dyno sheets comparing an super charger to turbo on the busa.
http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/super-chargers/102135-supercharger-vs-turbo-2.html (http://www.hayabusa.org/forum/super-chargers/102135-supercharger-vs-turbo-2.html)
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From those charts it would be a no brainer what to use. But,and there is always a but,it depends on the setup. In general the sc will be instant and linear boost. A turbo will need to spool up. Turbo lag can be almost non existent if set up right.I never feel any lag at all.
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interesting parts
http://www.venomxs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:irswillfit&catid=44:my-ffr-mkiii-venom-xs-roadster-project&Itemid=54 (http://www.venomxs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:irswillfit&catid=44:my-ffr-mkiii-venom-xs-roadster-project&Itemid=54)
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i was looking for a couple of old pics of the v6 rail and ran across the pics at the bottom of this post and the page after.......yep still funny rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=2617.285 (http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=2617.285)
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interesting parts
http://www.venomxs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:irswillfit&catid=44:my-ffr-mkiii-venom-xs-roadster-project&Itemid=54 (http://www.venomxs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63:irswillfit&catid=44:my-ffr-mkiii-venom-xs-roadster-project&Itemid=54)
You building something new?
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nope not at the moment just thought for a light weight rail those stock wheel bearings and carriers would be a nice option for someone. i think they are 5 on 4.5 bolt patterns.
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Standard ,off the shelf,components would be nice for sure if they are of needed design.
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well i figured it would just be easiest to pull my motor since i have to pull the oil pan to install a return line for the turbo. i decided to wait last night to make sure the turbo manifold doesn't warp beyond use while being welded so i then decided to check all the timing marks on the cam and timing chain again one last time since i will have to pull the head anyway to have stronger valve springs installed for the turbo as well. now i check these timing marks 2 years ago because my motor has never felt like it has ever had full tq or hp. it is hard to sight the crank marks through that little hole on the side while in my chassis but the cam marks are easy. if i line of the crank mark with a mirror and then check the cam gears as the manual says the cam marks are off a touch but don't look to be off that much when using the head body as a reference mark as the suzuki manual says. now i went past a bit on the crank so i spun it through one more time and decided to line up the camp marks first this time........when done this way the crank mark is roughly 1 spline off!!!! i read in a post on psyco bike forums one guy telling everyone that one could advance or retard timing on a busa by setting the crank cam gear off by 1 spline, not sure why anyone would do this on a stock n/a app but i know how people can mis read things. i will tear the rest of the side down till i can see the timing marks on that crank and crank cam gear to be sure but i just can't see this timing chain stretching that far but who really knows lol while i have it that far apart i am going to install a new chain but that does explain imo why this motor has always felt like it has had a boat anchor dragging behind it or as i have said , feels like the timing just never comes in at rpm!
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ok i was doing a search for how to measure chain stretch on my timing chain and came across this post on gd.com...... fabr i see you tried to educate them and were ignored lol well i agree a double row chain means more heat imo and the only chance this guy had in the first place was to move the box back and align it properly which tom pro failed to do i guess and after having seen enemy's alternator from tom pro i can see where the lack of detail and craftsmanship comes from at tom pro!!
http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=252873#entry4153012 (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?showtopic=252873#entry4153012)
just got a laugh from the post is all. spraying a little lube on the chain before every morning helps too but in the end it's still a chain and is still going to stretch, hell mine is almost done at the end of 3 seasons and that's n/a! however it is still my opinion that your rev 091 box is the way to go.
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read a few posts about how easy it is for the cam chain to slip a tooth on the crank cam gear during installation.
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well i figured it would just be easiest to pull my motor since i have to pull the oil pan to install a return line for the turbo. i decided to wait last night to make sure the turbo manifold doesn't warp beyond use while being welded so i then decided to check all the timing marks on the cam and timing chain again one last time since i will have to pull the head anyway to have stronger valve springs installed for the turbo as well. now i check these timing marks 2 years ago because my motor has never felt like it has ever had full tq or hp. it is hard to sight the crank marks through that little hole on the side while in my chassis but the cam marks are easy. if i line of the crank mark with a mirror and then check the cam gears as the manual says the cam marks are off a touch but don't look to be off that much when using the head body as a reference mark as the suzuki manual says. now i went past a bit on the crank so i spun it through one more time and decided to line up the camp marks first this time........when done this way the crank mark is roughly 1 spline off!!!! i read in a post on psyco bike forums one guy telling everyone that one could advance or retard timing on a busa by setting the crank cam gear off by 1 spline, not sure why anyone would do this on a stock n/a app but i know how people can mis read things. i will tear the rest of the side down till i can see the timing marks on that crank and crank cam gear to be sure but i just can't see this timing chain stretching that far but who really knows lol while i have it that far apart i am going to install a new chain but that does explain imo why this motor has always felt like it has had a boat anchor dragging behind it or as i have said , feels like the timing just never comes in at rpm!
Two things. First the oil return to sump from turbo needs to enter the engine above the sump oil level . Second,IMO,no need for heavier valve springs. Stockers work just fine.
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yes i planned on drilling the return line at the top of the oil pan. i found a set of instructions on a good location. if these are stock valve springs they have quite a few miles on them and are only rated at 45 lbs factory. they actually recommend 70 lbs springs for turbo'd. i only planned on getting the 60 lb springs so as not to push the limits of the stock timing chain. not sure it would be an issue to be honest but after having that cheap quality exhaust gasket burn out on that one trip i want to inspect the valves to be safe.
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Who is this "they"?
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forums and parts houses would be they.
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well i bought a eps out of a saturn vue for my steering. talked to a few guys running these and they are very happy with them and i know fabbr and fast are happy with there electric power steering as well. i have been wondering how many amps this unit draws at full power and i found this and thought it may be of use to others wanting to do something as well. there are smaller units available from several vendors.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89488 (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89488)
the post reads.....
Here is a description from the service manual.
Power Steering System Description and Operation
The electric power steering (EPS) system reduces the amount of effort needed to steer the vehicle. The system uses the body control module (BCM), power steering control module (PSCM), torque sensor, discrete battery voltage supply circuit, EPS motor, serial data bus, and the instrument panel cluster (IPC) message center to perform the system functions. The PSCM, torque sensor, nor the EPS motor are serviced separately from each other or from the steering column. Ant EPS components diagnosed to be malfunctioning requires replacement of the steering column assembly, also known as the EPS assembly.
Torque Sensor
The PSCM uses a torque sensor as it's main input for determining the amount of steering assists. The steering column has an input shaft, from the steering wheel to the torque sensor, and an output shaft, from the torque sensor to the steering shaft coupler. The input and output shafts are separated by a torsion bar, where the torque sensor is located. The sensor consists of a compensation coil, detecting coil, and 3 detecting rings. These detecting rings have toothed edges that face each other. Detecting ring 1 is fixed to the output shaft, detecting rings 2 and 3 are fixed to the input shaft. The detecting coil is positioned around the toothed edges of detecting rings 1 and 2. As torque is applied to the steering column shaft the alignment of the teeth between detecting rings 1 and 2 changes, which causes the detecting coil signal voltage to change. The PSCM recognizes this change in signal voltage as steering column shaft torque. The compensation coil is used to compensate for changes in electrical circuit impedance due to circuit temperature changes from electrical current and voltage levels as well as ambient temperatures for accurate torque detection.
EPS Motor
The EPS motor is a 12 volt brushed DC reversible motor with a 65 amp rating. The motor assists steering through a worm shaft and reduction gear located in the steering column housing.
Power Steering Control Module (PSCM)
The PSCM uses a combination of torque sensor inputs, vehicle speed, calculated system temperature and the steering calibration to determine the amount of steering assist. When the steering wheel is turned, the PSCM uses signal voltage from the torque sensor to detect the amount of torque being applied to the steering column shaft and the amount of current to command to the EPS motor. The PSCM receives serial data from the engine control module (ECM) to determine vehicle speed. At low speeds more assist is provided for easy turning during parking maneuvers. At high speeds, less assist is provided for improved road feel and directional stability. The PSCM nor the EPS motor are designed to handle 65 amps continuously. The PSCM will go into overload protection mode to avoid system thermal damage. In this mode the PSCM will limit the amount of current commanded to the EPS motor which reduces steering assist levels. The PSCM also chooses which steering calibration to use when the ignition is turned ON, based on the VIN. The PSCM contains all 8 of the steering calibrations which are different in relation to the vehicles RPO's. The PSCM has the ability to detect malfunctions within the EPS system. Any malfunction detected will cause the IPC message center to display the PWR STR (or Power Steering) warning message.
The wiring according to the schematic is two different power sources in and a ground. Along with with two communication wires to the rest of the control modules in the car.
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so at 65 amp which is a overload condition i guess but a 12 v motor at 65 amps is what 780 watts? then the 220 watt motor they sell for utv's would be about 18 amps i guess. read a few posts about a eps out of a toyota but don't see anything about a stand alone controller. the controller kit that comes with it says to use a 50 amp fuse and i know from a guy that i knot that is running this set up that a 30 amp fuse will work until you max it out by hitting a deep rutt at a high rate of speed in a flat out turn lol then it blew his 30 amp fuse. my aftermarket rec reg is only rated at 45 amps.
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well i have got the head tore off the motor but am still awaiting parts!! can't even bolt the turbo manifold up and get the exhaust made with out the head back on lol. i am going to run a mitsibishi turbo hks td06-14c by measurement , modified with a smaller compressor housing and diff wheel. i did not modify the compressor housing or wheel the previous owner did for use on a gsxr 1000, he said it worked good but.......
i tore the turbo down and measured it and sent the info off to a shop to see what they could tell me and this was there response, really nice guys and helpful too.
" Hello Brian,
Thank you for your interest. We do have a rebuild kit for your turbo. We have found the following specs, it is an HKS unit there is conflicting info on the compressor wheel size some show it as a 14C and other show it as a 17C (this makes more sense, because that is the stock sized wheel in the Typhoon turbo) and a TD06 turbine wheel (again stock Typhoon). The kit you need is our complete TD05/6 Flat back kit for $99 + shipping. Here is a link to these kits on our website:
http://gpopshop.com/products-page/all-kits/mitsubishi-td05td05htd06-complete-flatback-kit/ (http://gpopshop.com/products-page/all-kits/mitsubishi-td05td05htd06-complete-flatback-kit/)
You can order these directly off of the website or by calling in at 479-751-7966. Let us know if you have any other questions or if you need anything else. Thank you, "
there is some debate that this is the early ( small) typhoon truck turbo with internal wastegate as in first few months of production then it went to the 17c but i really don't know. it's tore down and out for thermal coating. this is the only compressor map i could find for the stock turbo. the best info i could find online rated the busa at 220 cfm n/a due to some restrictions in the stock intake box. in the camp ground putzing out to the gate i run 3k rpm to 3500 rpm and with the motor in limp mode with the damn timing advanced like it was due to previous owner timing chain botch or who ever did it for them i had to run 8k rpm and higher ( 11k rpm) to just barely keep up and even then it was a challenge!! fabr and enemy have told me they run comfortably at or around 6k rpm and above on the sand at 6 to 8 lbs boost. i'm sure they can confirm or correct this.
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here is the compressor map for the stock 2.3 ford turbo engines that i was thinking would work good for a busa but after looking at it deeper the busa would be operating beyond it's efficiency or right of the compressor map. i do believe it would work good for a 600 or 750 and maybe a 1000 cc bike engines but not sure with out more info? the interesting info on the stock 2.3 head only flowed 150cfm but due to fluctuations in qc one head shop showed flow rates from 150 to 180 on stock heads. but from what i can read a few simple mods to the heads as in a mild port job and unshrouding the valves along with larger valves, stronger springs and retainers, better valve seats and a higher lift roller cam and they can reach 200 to 220 cfm depending. along with a cleaner better flowing intake tract of course and then quite a few seem to favor the first gen stock holset turbo's off the cummins or a garrett t3/t4 hybrid.
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so at 65 amp which is a overload condition i guess but a 12 v motor at 65 amps is what 780 watts? then the 220 watt motor they sell for utv's would be about 18 amps i guess. read a few posts about a eps out of a toyota but don't see anything about a stand alone controller. the controller kit that comes with it says to use a 50 amp fuse and i know from a guy that i knot that is running this set up that a 30 amp fuse will work until you max it out by hitting a deep rutt at a high rate of speed in a flat out turn lol then it blew his 30 amp fuse. my aftermarket rec reg is only rated at 45 amps.
ANd that is the reason I used the more expensive unit made for a SxS. Plenty of power assist and an amp draw that our stock busa/bike engine charging systems can handle.
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well i have got the head tore off the motor but am still awaiting parts!! can't even bolt the turbo manifold up and get the exhaust made with out the head back on lol. i am going to run a mitsibishi turbo hks td06-14c by measurement , modified with a smaller compressor housing and diff wheel. i did not modify the compressor housing or wheel the previous owner did for use on a gsxr 1000, he said it worked good but.......
i tore the turbo down and measured it and sent the info off to a shop to see what they could tell me and this was there response, really nice guys and helpful too.
" Hello Brian,
Thank you for your interest. We do have a rebuild kit for your turbo. We have found the following specs, it is an HKS unit there is conflicting info on the compressor wheel size some show it as a 14C and other show it as a 17C (this makes more sense, because that is the stock sized wheel in the Typhoon turbo) and a TD06 turbine wheel (again stock Typhoon). The kit you need is our complete TD05/6 Flat back kit for $99 + shipping. Here is a link to these kits on our website:
http://gpopshop.com/products-page/all-kits/mitsubishi-td05td05htd06-complete-flatback-kit/ (http://gpopshop.com/products-page/all-kits/mitsubishi-td05td05htd06-complete-flatback-kit/)
You can order these directly off of the website or by calling in at 479-751-7966. Let us know if you have any other questions or if you need anything else. Thank you, "
there is some debate that this is the early ( small) typhoon truck turbo with internal wastegate as in first few months of production then it went to the 17c but i really don't know. it's tore down and out for thermal coating. this is the only compressor map i could find for the stock turbo. the best info i could find online rated the busa at 220 cfm n/a due to some restrictions in the stock intake box. in the camp ground putzing out to the gate i run 3k rpm to 3500 rpm and with the motor in limp mode with the damn timing advanced like it was due to previous owner timing chain botch or who ever did it for them i had to run 8k rpm and higher ( 11k rpm) to just barely keep up and even then it was a challenge!! fabr and enemy have told me they run comfortably at or around 6k rpm and above on the sand at 6 to 8 lbs boost. i'm sure they can confirm or correct this.
With an unmodified Garrett GT25r turbo I have full boost by 5K and will run around the dunes normally at no more than 8K rpm. No real need to run it higher rpms.I also never raised my rpm limits either.Again,no need. I live by the rule that if there is no need why destroy parts.
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here is the compressor map for the stock 2.3 ford turbo engines that i was thinking would work good for a busa but after looking at it deeper the busa would be operating beyond it's efficiency or right of the compressor map. i do believe it would work good for a 600 or 750 and maybe a 1000 cc bike engines but not sure with out more info? the interesting info on the stock 2.3 head only flowed 150cfm but due to fluctuations in qc one head shop showed flow rates from 150 to 180 on stock heads. but from what i can read a few simple mods to the heads as in a mild port job and unshrouding the valves along with larger valves, stronger springs and retainers, better valve seats and a higher lift roller cam and they can reach 200 to 220 cfm depending. along with a cleaner better flowing intake tract of course and then quite a few seem to favor the first gen stock holset turbo's off the cummins or a garrett t3/t4 hybrid.
Many turbos MAY work well but I chose the GT25r due to that being a very popular choice of builders . I considered a GT35r but that would have raised my boosted rpm range around 1500K IIRC.I wanted it all in sooner and a much better spool time so I stayed with the 25.
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slow progress
had to delete the factory oil cooler i re used and went to a bigger one i could use regular lines on for clearance. the head checked out good, new valve springs in ( 65lb) and surfaced it. well i didn't i paid to have it done lol $120 not bad in my book. and a pic of the turbo hanging on.
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Damnit now you've ruined the surprise!! Now get off outer and back to garage. Less than 4 weeks! :o 3:
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That sit as low as the pic shows? If it does will the oil return line be almost horizontal? I did that on the first buggy,only about 3" drop in about a foot. Had intermittent smoking issues and had to use an oil pump to return the oil to sump.
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took the pics with my cell phone so they are kindof shitty lol but it does sit low. the bottom of the center cassette of the turbo is above the top of my oil pan gasket. the bottom of the oil return fitting is level with the oil pan gasket prob about a 4.5" to 5" drop to an 10 builk head fitting in the oil pan. i went with 10 return line because of what i read on the bushing style turbo's. i was trying to find info on oil feed restrictors and all i could find was about ball bearing but did finally find a few on bushing style. it said no restrictor is needed but if you see a little smoke from the oil through the turbo that you simply need a larger id return line. i do have a banjo fitting on top of the turbo feeding it that is more restrictive than a straight an 4 line feed which is the other end of the feed line but decided to go ahead with an 10 return line to be safe i guess. the return line does not go horizontal but the bulk an 10 fitting in the oil pan which is where all this style turbo's go that i can find and in the online instructions from other companies, it does point down because of the angle of the oil pan. i think/hope i have enough drop along with large enough return line this isn't an issue. those instructions also say to pull the oil filter and remove or drill out the oil restrictor. those instructions also are telling you to block off the oil cooler ports to delete the oil cooler. so i found several posts on hayabusa.org stating that is only needed if you delete the oil cooler and if you don't then leave it in there. a couple guys said they have done it both ways with oil cooler and saw no effect either way. i kept my oil cooler and even went larger as seen in the pic so i kept the restrictor just because.
i know several aren't a fan of fmu's ;D but it is the cheapest way to try this in my case with limited time. so i purchased this newer style one from schnitz.
http://store.schnitzracing.com/rcc-billet-raising-rate-fuel-pressure-regulator/ (http://store.schnitzracing.com/rcc-billet-raising-rate-fuel-pressure-regulator/) and a 320 lph fuel pump http://store.schnitzracing.com/aem-320-lph-high-flow-in-tank-fuel-pump-suzuki-gsx1300r-hayabusa-01-15/ to feed the system. i don't plan on going higher than 8 lbs hell i will be happy with 6lbs to be honest. this will be interesting and enemy said he would help tune it ;) ;) now it is still an fmu but better than they used to be and many have used this companies and seem to be ok with them or atleast aren't posting anything bad about them but we know how that goes too lol
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anyone wondering about the instructions here is a link to an interesting set
http://suzukihayabusa.org/Ghetto_Install2.pdf (http://suzukihayabusa.org/Ghetto_Install2.pdf)
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Damnit now you've ruined the surprise!! Now get off outer and back to garage. Less than 4 weeks! :o 3:
quit reminding me about that lol hell i forgot a few small pieces so they won't be here till april 3rd!! lol i hope to get the motor back in this weekend and start building the exh. now that everyone is out of the hospital and on the mend around here ....wow
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You will be throwing that FMU in the trash before long if it uses a metal shim like all the others. Hope it doesn't eff up and burn your motor down. FMU's are junk. Did I mention I wouldn't ever try using one ever again? Did it seem like I hate them? LOL!!!!!
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You will be throwing that FMU in the trash before long if it uses a metal shim like all the others. Hope it doesn't eff up and burn your motor down. FMU's are junk. Did I mention I wouldn't ever try using one ever again? Did it seem like I hate them? LOL!!!!!
now that you meantion it i do believe i remember you whispering about that lol well i am going to give it a shot and i haven't taken it apart to find out and it prob is like the others but i can say it is a whole lot thinner and flatter than all the others i have seen. plus adjustable instead of changing springs.
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http://www.ozzy.net/jdscott/hayabusa/documents/RCC%20Turbos%20-%20Stage%201%20Turbo%20Install%20-%20Suzuki%20Hayabusa%20-%20Gen%201.pdf (http://www.ozzy.net/jdscott/hayabusa/documents/RCC%20Turbos%20-%20Stage%201%20Turbo%20Install%20-%20Suzuki%20Hayabusa%20-%20Gen%201.pdf)
another set of good instructions
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I just quick scanned them and seems like a good set. Were they?
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I just quick scanned them and seems like a good set. Were they?
i thought they were but i did the pump a little diff......i wanted an in tank pump but other than that better than the ghetto instruction imo
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ok so i have a few pics to add, i did take the rail for two short runs in the back yard tonight.....i like it lol needs some tuning yet but i still like it lol
the first two pics are of the new steel sprocket i bought. i changed the front from a 13 t to a 14 t but stayed 70t on the rear. steel sprocket is only 2 lbs heavier than the aluminum one i had in the second pic you can sort of tell why. the rest of the pics are of the turbo install and frame mod and larger oil cooler and intank fuel pump mod.
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here are 3 pics of the bazzaz tunning system fuel cells. the one pic is how i set the target afr just to take it for a ride to get a foot in for tunning. i went by rcc turbo's site stating they call for 11.5 to 11.8 on afr for stage 1 turbos with there fmu's. i set 0 to 3k rpm to 13 for afr and will tighten and dial in better as i go. just making sure i don't go extremely lean. of course i rebuilt the turbo so it will take a while to break in as well. then a few more pics of the build.
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the bazzaz pic is of 3k to 9k rpm and i only hit 60% throttle but the first pic is of what i set target afr for and the next two pics are of what the auto mapper is suggesting i make changes to to hit those target afr's. just a start but not a bad one.
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well for anyone that is putting there own turbo together on a busa...... if your going to use a mitsibishi turbo it is my opinnion now that i have used the one off a gmc typhoon and after talking to hahn that a td05 8cm exh side with a 17c comp side would be right about perfect for up to 8 lbs boost. for usable boost lower in the rpm range like 4500 start up to 7 k full boost.
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If/when I get some irons out of the fire I'll be upping the busa power quite a bit. Some auto tuner will be used for sure. I like what I saw with the newer Microsquirt.
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If/when I get some irons out of the fire I'll be upping the busa power quite a bit. Some auto tuner will be used for sure. I like what I saw with the newer Microsquirt.
+1 here on a winter project
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well i have gotten a little lazy on maintenence and haven't pulled my cv's off for inspection and fresh grease is a couple years or so........well tore them apart over the weekend and there is signs of normal wear imo all except the crack along the outside housing. only one of them cracked. i just sent the pic's to dean at rcv this afternoon and he said they should be shipping me a new one real quick under warranty. they said lifetime warranty when i bought them so i called. he has to show the pics to the person they call there engineer lol lol anyway i have seen a couple empi cv's do this but never seen nor heard of a better quality part doing it? i can't believe an over tightened bolt could do it afterall there 3/8" fine thread.
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the crack goes clear through the outer but no crack that i can see on the inner side of the outer housing. and not a hug deal all in all but glad i caught it.
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HHHMMMMMMM,I have it's twin. I guess I need to give them a call. The one that was clicking last year @ LS was like that along with being chewed up.
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call them .....they emailed confirmation that they shipped me the new one under warranty.
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is it cracked all the way through? i thought you had posted pics of one with chewed up balls a while back.
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Cracked exactly like yours is. Ya,my balls are chewed up as well. LMAO
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lol really lol not even going to comment lol take a few pics and send them to them then call. they aren't real good about calling back
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i have rcv's top dog email addy. ;) ;D ;D
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DS wants pics of Fabrs chewed up What?? rofl rofl
Enemy, can I stay with you at LS?
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Sure!
Just as long as you can put up with my goofy neighbor.. He will probably want pics too rofl
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what happens at ls stays at ls LMAO LMAO
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my replacement cv showed up and that was fast shipping! shipped out mon evening
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You guys trying to talk me out of going ??? It's starting to work if so................... Thinking I'll just go to cowboy camp,pull up a couple stakes ,hope no rangers around,only hit a couple toyhaulers,so I can get into a slot,and stay with fast!!! LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
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so you are say you really are willing to stay at cowboy afterall huh?!
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ya know if fast can`t i know doug would have plenty of room for ya as long as you can stand snorring in a upper accent rofl
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so you are say you really are willing to stay at cowboy afterall huh?!
Nope,was just bullshittin' ya. ;D
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http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/lofiversion/index.php?t41218.html (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/lofiversion/index.php?t41218.html)
MegaSand with 091 stack = 400 hp
MegaSand with 2d stack = 450 hp
i only posted this because this is all i could find for info on the megasand trans i bought that lance is babysitting for me lol thanks lance!!!!! i do know mine is the last gen before they closed up shop and a 3 speed. i do know from the previous owner that it does not use the 002 pinnion bearing or atleast he stated that he found an origanal 091 steel german pinnion bearing for it before he sent it in for rebuild. i am happy with these hp #'s since tq #'s follow suit
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Sure!
Just as long as you can put up with my goofy neighbor.. He will probably want pics too rofl
I know this post is old but what!?!?!? Enemy, I know you were not talking about me!!! :slp 9: 6: :7 4:
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thats funny doug but not sure that was about you however still funny rofl rofl
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well turns out those megasand trans i posted the specs on were the last 2 years they were built. i have two of the older ones even though they were purchased 2 years before they went under according to the guy i bought them. he had a new rail built and they built it with this the megasand. but he did have a 355 chevy v8 bolted to it for 12 years so it should..... handle my turbo 2.3. the other one is rear engine only and also had a 355 v8 for 12 years and both with u joint shafts.
also .....budlight......doug said he liked your shifter so could you tell me which one you have and post a pic?
here are few pics of the black on thats going in mine. it's a 3 speed mid engine and the shifter that came with it. the other is a broken one i bought at the same time that needs a r&p. i found the new parts just waiting to take it to shane to have him look at the gear stack to make sure the debris didn't get into them.
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according to mark at marks sand trans , rancho trans, wright gear box and weddle they all said they are 300 ft tq trans at best and also said all megasand trans are except the real early ones which are weaker. now these aren't the real early ones i know that one for sure. scott told me his bud bo is running the real early one and he has a built 2.3 running higher boost as in 30's range and it has taken it for a number of years in st a so i'll find out. dougs is a 4 speed mid and has handled 21 psi for several years now w/o issue. other than that no real info out there other than what scott has told me and fast has told me about personal use which i believe them over gd posts lol
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glenn didn't you have one of these?
http://www.transworks.biz/ajshift.html (http://www.transworks.biz/ajshift.html)
i know you've tried one of these glenn but was it a sequential shift? http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=2151.0
has anyone ever heard of or seen one of these jerrys sandrail shifters?
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glenn didn't you have one of these?
http://www.transworks.biz/ajshift.html (http://www.transworks.biz/ajshift.html)
i know you've tried one of these glenn but was it a sequential shift? http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=2151.0
has anyone ever heard of or seen one of these jerrys sandrail shifters?
Sure did. Never again. They are not made anymore.
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http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/lubbockonline/obituary.aspx?pid=164673483 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/lubbockonline/obituary.aspx?pid=164673483)
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http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/lubbockonline/obituary.aspx?pid=164673483 (http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/lubbockonline/obituary.aspx?pid=164673483)
that pretty much explains it.
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well turns out those megasand trans i posted the specs on were the last 2 years they were built. i have two of the older ones even though they were purchased 2 years before they went under according to the guy i bought them. he had a new rail built and they built it with this the megasand. but he did have a 355 chevy v8 bolted to it for 12 years so it should..... handle my turbo 2.3. the other one is rear engine only and also had a 355 v8 for 12 years and both with u joint shafts.
also .....budlight......doug said he liked your shifter so could you tell me which one you have and post a pic?
Mine is a Fortin shifter for a 5 speed. They also make one for a mid engine application.
http://www.kartek.com/parts/fortin-racing-mendeola-5-speed-shifter-satin-finish.html (http://www.kartek.com/parts/fortin-racing-mendeola-5-speed-shifter-satin-finish.html)
http://www.kartek.com/parts/fortin-racing-mid-engine-shifter-satin-finish.html (http://www.kartek.com/parts/fortin-racing-mid-engine-shifter-satin-finish.html)
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thanks....i asked because doug said he liked yours and i didn't know what you had.
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this would make a nice addition to the camper
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FYO368K/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ll1&tag=thesloroait06-20&linkId=5743c4f174514fcb431785f20d74ec11 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FYO368K/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ll1&tag=thesloroait06-20&linkId=5743c4f174514fcb431785f20d74ec11)
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Damn ,talk about hijacking your own thread!
But hell yeah, I'll take one thanks ;)
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I say we build one.. We have the technology.
Stainless!
With a 2" Salt block as the kiln floor...
Effin A.
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mmmmmmmm pizza cooked on a salt block mmmmmm
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Build it we will come eat it......... ;D ;D ;D
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You guys need to start a cooking site...........................
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not a bad idea lol