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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on September 06, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
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OK,we all know we want a lot more power from our busas,right? I'm going to start the discussion with a link to a bit dated but relevant discussion of effective compression ratios. A long read but if interested in where I think I am going with planned busa build it will shed a bit of light on it. Looking for 300-350 hp /200-220 lb.ft. tq..
http://www.xcceleration.com/cr-boost%20101.htm (http://www.xcceleration.com/cr-boost%20101.htm)
We NEED all the off boost torque we can get without losing any from lowering the compression ratio to accomodate around 18 psi boost. I currently only run 8 psi on 91 pump gas with stock 11:1 (I think)compression.
My "plan" is to retain stock 11:1 compression and raise boost to 18 psi and run E85. The article makes me think it will work fine. The discussion and formulas on effective compression ratios is what makes me feel it will work. Yes,there are as many articles as there are chinamen in china but the info falls in line with everything I have ever read for the last too damn many years to even count. rofl I think my "plan" will allow no loss of off boost power but allow massive gains in on boost performance. IF the rule of thumb on busas is close to right the 18 psi will be an additional 180 hp added to the conseervative stock-say approx 140(ya,I know they claim 180ish) hp that would be the 320 or so desired.
What's your ideas on this ,enemy? I know you have looked into this quite a bit. All are welcome to throw in their .02 or more!!!! 8) 8)
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Enemy,are you still using the ECU editor from boostbysmith? If so ,answer me this since I have never installed my interface and haven't even looked at it yet,LOL!!!!! If converting to E85,will the editor allow me to up all the fuel cells 30-40% to compensate for the added fuel and will the stock injectors support that additional duty cycle or do I need to look at something like the s2000 injectors and back off the duty cycle some? Hope that isn't clear as mud.
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Good write-up link!
Been pondering a build like you are thinking about... before I decided that the Jeffco cannot tolerate any more power whatsoever. Put it on the backburner until I settled on a solution to replace it actually. I have been so impressed with torque of the little turbo 2.3 I stuffed in the Ranger OFF BOOST, that lately I have been thinking about upping the Busa to larger displacement like the 1363, midrange compression ratio (like 9.5.1) at 15-20 psi on E85. Torque should see a significant increase down low and the 42lbs secondary injectors we run should be up to the task of fueling it in boost. 11.1 is just a bit on the high side IMO to pull 20psi safely and reliably, unless the tune is spot on.
The problem I see is using the stock ECU, boost-by-smith flash box, and the Split Second just to control primary and secondary fueling. Hell, in my case I got so frustrated with the interface I added a Bazazz to improve drivability off boost!
Will it do it? Yes sure.. but ECUEditor can be a real pain in the ass to use unless you have unlimited dyno access or dont mind data logging for the rest of our lives to nail down the tune, and the SPlit-Second secondaries interface is PREHISTORIC and only batch fires the injectors. . Not very efficient at all to control fueling.
On the Ranger I went with a MicroSquirt for engine management because AEM pissed me off for the last time. ONE little box to control it all (all 8 injectors semi-sequential or staged), excellent user base, the most user friendly program to run it called TunerStudio and the best bang for the buck that rivals some of the much more expensive stand-alone engine management. Some guys have ditched the Split-Second box and used it just for their secondaries with excellent control. 10 years ago when I looked into the MS I would have said stay the hell away, but it has made leaps and bounds ever since, much in part is because of TunerStudio.
Next research I haven't done yet is to find a base map to use the factory sensors, and either go with 4 large injectors or retain the port-fuelers and run 8 matched injectors. Need to do the math on how much injector it will take a X hp on X fuel first.
Couple links > http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html)
http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio (http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio)
http://www.msextra.com/product-range/microsquirt/ (http://www.msextra.com/product-range/microsquirt/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR_T7B8Jp-Q#t=40
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I think we are mostly thinking along the same lines. I'm strongly tending to say stick with secondaries but,as you suggest,use the MS to control them.I'm hitting the bed now but will reply more in morning.
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very good article, but let me ask you this.....according to the formula in the article for altitude , at 9:1 comp at 24 lbs boost on there scale you really drop 1.3 so essentially feels like 22 psi boost instead of 24? if so does that mean with all factors appropriate should/could one raise waste gate 2 psi to get the 24lbs boost power back to compensate safely? or does it just simply mean you can raise boost 2 psi safely based on that drop?
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also converting to e85 and staying with stock 11:1 and controlling all by the microsquirt system which appears to be plug and play with stock harness but you would have to wire the secondaries in. based on that article using the formulas presented i don't see why you couldn't safely run 18 psi max on the busa with supporting mods and properly tuned. i can see the larger bore adding grunt and at that lower comp helping boost levels as a very safe build and still not going to a spacer plate motor. no matter what you'll still need rods, case studs and head studs a few other supporting mods and prob really need to go to the billet basket and stronger trans gears which enemy has already done. 1 thing is for sure, that trip to st a was an eye opener on flotation, gearing and hp! in my weight class all mixed with altitude
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Been messing with the busa motor a little bit over the Winter ;D
Crank is back from APE. Race balanced and lightened, counter balancer gear removed, Carrillo rods and pistons.
These will be around 9.5.1 with no spacer plate.
Still waiting on a few more things to start assembly.
Ditching the secondary injectors and going full microsquirt on e85 with flex fuel like the Ranger (just for variances between e70-e90) It has worked very well in that truck for "laptop free" fueling changes.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2FDSCN0110_zpsjpuc6bdr.jpg&hash=2e40ae083ab54d809be93b64674b335cd156225b) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/DSCN0110_zpsjpuc6bdr.jpg.html)
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2FDSCN0111_zps8xm89wpn.jpg&hash=3717c6eb67b70d8bf7684557ac765d13ce4f1df1) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/DSCN0111_zps8xm89wpn.jpg.html)
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Oh man, I'm all giggity !!
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WooHOO MEEE TOOOOOOO!!
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My spy cam footage that I put in garage last time up has been good. Wondered when we'd see something. I'm prob not gonna see it at dunes but hopefully a quick peek when we up in a few months.
There was a guy out west running 300 thru jeffco. U will test that shit proper! I had concerns with my drive, so I'm swapping it now. Turbo on e85 is my plan too.
It an alcohol party!!
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ya well with my 4" dump pipe i bet you guys smell my alchy more LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
that new rear drive will handle that and more carl! i am waiting to see what fabbr does with his busa after enemy field tests this build!
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I want to see a dyno sheet. I'vebeen pondering this for quite a while now. Still have lots of questions.
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Oddly enough,new car on e85 andso far,absolutely no alky smell. I was quite surprised. Never a teary eye. It starts and idle well at .98 lambda even though most I read says .92 or lower to get good idle. I can only think that the 14.5:1 compression is responsible for the good idle and therefore its tolerance for such a high lambda. Sooooo,I'm still torn about lowering the compression using e85 and boost.
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what kind of pressure were you thinking? i assume super charger since it's a v8 and where i am no expert the guy doing the machine work on my block told me i would be safe at 10 to 1 on e85 only.... up to 30 psi but at 10 to 1 that would narrow my tuning window waaaaaay down and be careful. so i opted for 9to1 rather than stock 8to1. this is why i ask
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What? I lost you somewhere.
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Oddly enough,new car on e85 andso far,absolutely no alky smell. I was quite surprised. Never a teary eye. It starts and idle well at .98 lambda even though most I read says .92 or lower to get good idle. I can only think that the 14.5:1 compression is responsible for the good idle and therefore its tolerance for such a high lambda. Sooooo,I'm still torn about lowering the compression using e85 and boost.
mis read....thought you were referring to the v8
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I see. I was referring to not lowering the compression on the busa and boosting it maybe less psi to maintain off boost /lower rpm grunt. Honestly,I'm looking for best perf from idle to mid rpms. Sacraficing some top end doesn't really concern me as much as a nice flat torque curve. That's why I'd like to see a dyno sheet after enemy gets his done.
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I see. I was referring to not lowering the compression on the busa and boosting it maybe less psi to maintain off boost /lower rpm grunt. Honestly,I'm looking for best perf from idle to mid rpms. Sacraficing some top end doesn't really concern me as much as a nice flat torque curve. That's why I'd like to see a dyno sheet after enemy gets his done.
Hoping to do just that when I think I got the tune close up to 15psi, I think that would be the max I feel safe putting to the back end in smooth conditions. This motor is going to go in a different build in the future, hopefully at 35psi. Brother Don's 'soon to be bro-n-law' has dyno access I am going to try and exploit ;D
...and the smell of corn fuel burning is sweet and makes woman horny.
Makes thirsty for Stolichnaya vodka as well..Smells similar..Come to the corn side..
Carl knows this from the spy cam LMAO
AND what happens when the lights are out but the wood stove is still lit and someone is playing with lacquer thinner!
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rofl rofl
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Just leave door unlocked, and key in rail. Wanna take a few pulls up the street. I will replace all the XX that are missing!!
Man I cant wait to see it run, and a little ride. I'm curious of your thoughts on the Je!!c* making it.
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The Jeffy definitely wont handle what this motor should be capable of lol
But I do believe it will handle more than previously believed depending on the terrain. The rough Oklahoma choppy sand definitely beats the shit out of things compared to smooth fluff like St.A. Also discovered that I had axles that were filling full of sand and one was almost completely locked up for quite a while 5:
With my rear end design I have over 1/8" plunge in the axles and was transferring most of that into the diff, may have been why I broke the diff, or at least helped it along. A Briggs N Stratton could have cause some of the issues in the past, but I still have high hopes for the Jeffco, just going to change the driving style up a bit for the time being, keep the motor tamed down a touch till the future of this car is determined.
BlueMoon John made great progress for me on the bottom end today, he is going full tilt OCD on it lol
I like that :)
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2Fimage000009_zpsyfg4mbn0.jpg&hash=8703c6e70e7ed7b534db8261044717bdfca24ebc) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/image000009_zpsyfg4mbn0.jpg.html)
Removed stuff. I chose to delete the counter balancer for less mass to spin up, and APE rebalanced the crank accordingly. On the fence on whats better for small displacement as far as light flywheels,no counter balancer go.. I understand the desire to have that extra mass to help the motor keep momentum letting the clutch out, but I like quicker rev to peak. Letting the clutch out for me this way just means a touch more throttle input, the only downside I know of if it could even be considered that..?
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2Fimage055555_zpsifm4obrq.jpg&hash=2db71cce645c72f227c33b0e8f789979b46713a6) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/image055555_zpsifm4obrq.jpg.html)
Dummy shaft in place, notice the removed drive gear from the crank. APE does beautiful work!
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2Fimage000011_zpsyibohi2i.jpg&hash=c3e9962a17fb2f8e060e59b443be50f4102dea82) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/image000011_zpsyibohi2i.jpg.html)
Cylinders mocked up to check deck and squish, bout as far as we got. More to come!
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi516.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu329%2Fbeerfarm1%2FBusa%2520Build%2Fimage000999_zpsjijop5m4.jpg&hash=3f3ae5f9ef49c6fce8b61eabc7109885c0814391) (http://s516.photobucket.com/user/beerfarm1/media/Busa%20Build/image000999_zpsjijop5m4.jpg.html)
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Looking good! Can't wait to see it run.
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Oh my, I call shotgun!!
Damnit I cant use smiley's, on windows 10 need to fig that out.
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it will be interesting to see how the lowered comp effects take off. but ya i want a ride too!! lol