Looking 4 input. Protools 105 bender stand that goes vertical to horizontal

[Nutz4sand]

I am laying out my bender stands final "phases" and looking for input.
I ripped out these paint images to get the ideas across.
I already have a nice cylinder and control valve and pump setup for the bender part. I am looking for ideas for the tipping of the bender from vertical to horzontal with ease and quickly but controllably. Changing dies with it vertical is near impossible with one person so it going back to horizontal just to change the dies is a big plus. I do plan on bends in both positions.

 The first set of images is the genral layout. It will not be so long as the side view implies as I will only make it long enough to store dies in containers on the flat parts on a shelf I will add in the middle. The pins at the left end are for quick storage of dies being used that day. Otherwise they will be on the shelfs in containers to protect them.   

The second image is just some quickie ideas using a typical hand cranked trailer tounge jacks to move it.  The one on the far upper right has a side handled crank and is upside down to push upward on the bender.  The bottom two and upper middle one are a common jack fixed solid with a chain or rod connecting it to the bender to tip it.  To make it quick and easy to tip I considered a drill with a clutch on it to spin the hand jacks yet the drill clutch would allow slip to not over torque the bender frame.  Cheap and kinda easy.

The last pic is the one I am currently favoring but not settled on just yet. It would use common airshocks to provide the lift and to also help guide it back down. The airshocks own shock would provide some resistance to it flopping or banging and I have air flow control valves that will allow me to tailor the flow to make the movment controlled. I am thinking two or three to lift it with ease (They claim 1100 pounds of helping lift per two shocks) and one to push it back down (Will be needed with my BIG dies hanging off the side)

 I can get the shocks (all four) for 80 bucks delivered to my door. They have 10.75 inches of travel so I can get the movement required.  I have the valves and flow controls already. Just need the shocks for the muscles.

This bender stand will already have a small aircompressor onboard due to it sits on leveling feet but it has wheels that will be pushed downward by thier own airshocks to lift it for easy moving it around the shop.

Still debating on just getting another hydraulic cylinder and valve but the cost of those plus flow controls adds up pretty quick.

Anybody know a place to get a hell of a deal on a hydraulic cylinder and valve I can control? Maybe even one with a pressure relief so I do not have some fool torquing the frame with the control if I aint there to slap them. If I do go hydraulic I will mount the end of the cylinder in a spring relief so the full grunt of the cylinder will not be trying to tear the frame apart but still keep solid tension to hold the bender against its adjustable stops.  Thanx for any input. Bill       

[SPEC]

Looks like you got pretty much all your bases covered...
But...
It also looks like alot of extra work and stuff that can go wrong...
Kiss method works best for me

[Nutz4sand]

I know KISS is ususally better but I don't think I am getting too deep here. Most of this is still on the simple side.

I have that same kinda long ram jack from "Harbor fright" and was going to use it but I cannot listen to my big air compressor run that much.

The little compressor onboard the unit will only be for the airshocks and it has enough volume for a few cycles so it won't be to overtaxed.

My first idea was like the one below but its morphed into this creation I am doing.

I just want the easyiest way to tip it with reasonable to little effort. I have considered counterweighting it and just moving it by hand. Anyone got any depleted Urainium? : ]   

[Admin]

Some of us like a challenge, I particularly could give a rats ass about that KISS method..Do it how you want, And you'll fell better when its done...Haven t had a chance to sTudy all the drawings, But i will and offer my1/2 cents worth later...

[Engineer]

Looks good!  Looks like a plan.  I assume you are going to pin it in position once you get it there?

I have always bent horizontal, but it seems everyone else is going to vertical.  Does it really help or make it easier?

If you made it so it never went "over center" you wouldn't need the shocks on the back side.  Just put air in to raise it up till you can shove the pin in.  Then refill with air until you can pull the pin out, then have a valve to bleed the air out slowly while it sinks back down.  If it was me I would just put a ball valve between the shocks and the air inlet.  Plug in the air and slowly open the valve to raise until you can put the pin in.  Unplug the air and slowly open the valve to lower it.  Close the valve when not in use to keep debris out.  Did you say that you were going to be the operator?  Or does it need to be idiot proof?? 

[fabr]

ANyone ever hear of Rube Goldberg? LOL!!! Yeah do it how you want but there is a lot of good things to be said for KISS.

[Nutz4sand]

If I go with the airshocks or the hydraulics or the hand spun jacks I would have a constant tension put on it to hold it against adjustable stops. The airshocks take care of the spring themselves. The hydraulic or jack option would have spring loaded reliefs so that some tension was always on it when it was at either one of the bending positions. This would effectivly "pin" it I think. If not I would make a brace to slide in and a hand nut (like a wing nut but bigger for the hand) would tighten onto it to hold it but only if I need to.

The shock on the backside would be good to have simply due to my bigger dies are all of 40 pounds I bet. The cylinder will be working its weight against it. But it would help to push it down to horizontal BUT its primary function would be to provide resistance from the lift shocks from slamming the unit into the upwards position. Without that backside shock the two or three I would use to lift it would rush it forward as it came over from lifting to near horizontal. So I need a "brake" there if I go with airshocks.

I have valves (toggle switches) that you just flip to control the airflow. The flow controls will control the speed of the movement. I can flip a switch and it will go to the next position by itself while I prepare my next order of buisness. Thats another thing I liek about this way.
 
Horizontal bending is sometimes a nice thing to have but at times a vertical bend is nice and vertical bending offers easy bending to a degree at times due to starting level then simply watching the degree wheel till you hit what you want. Ceilings are the biggest culprit for vert bending. But I can take this outside when its nice and when its not there is the spaces between trusses.

And if worse comes to worse then I can go horizontal. Somtimes you gotta. With big bends the weight out the side on a horizontal bend can attempt to take it a degree or two off. Not a lot for the most part but it can make a differance. If you cannot hold it level with a stand (especially when its moving thru the bend) Vertical can get real nice real quick.   

I tend to like things as near idiot proof as I can get as when I do not it always seems some moron HAS to test somethings limits. Like I said if I aint there to slap them I will wish I was. Idiot proofing makes it so I still just need to slap them instead of a full fledged getting arrested worthy beating.  Ask my nephews.........

[Admin]

ANyone ever hear of Rube Goldberg? LOL!!! Yeah do it how you want but there is a lot of good things to be said for KISS.

Great quote especially from you, You could have had a trans for 1/2 the cost and 1/10th the work... KISS... You built it because you wanted to, Not because you needed to...

[SPEC]

Nutz Pretty much has it covered...
I had alot of problems with multiple bends doing it horrizontally, With tube slippage I even had an arm that rotated with the bender,,,That was a total pain in the ass so I went vertical with a couple of laser levels and angle finders your only problem is somtimes you hve to wheel it out to the driveway to avoid ramming the part thru the ceiling like Nutz said

[Nutz4sand]

Just a little curios for the people out there with vertical benders. I know MOST bends go upward in the same direction as the first bend but just wondering what height off the floor your bender holds its dies and have you ever had an issue with the tube going down towards the floor??? I mean as in if you had to bend 180 degrees out from the first bend?? Would you like your dies higher or lower???

The reason I ask is in layout my bender (See diagram below) When I have it in the vertical position it will have the tube straight out over main bench part. When bending up I do not see an issue for the first bend. But I was just trying to figure out/realize if it may be better to have the die actually off the side of the bender cart so it clears the table. That way if I had to bend a bend in a direction 180 degrees from the first if would not hit the table but instead go down beside it. But in reality...How often does that happen? (Note: to move it off the side will take some redesigning. But I would rather do it now than later...) I will also not that my die would be pretty dang close to the floor anyways if my horizontal bending height is kept around 33 inches (What it is with the factory Pro tools stand that botls to concrete) This gives me more room to bend upwards. But little down anyways. I think I am worrying about something that will not be such a big deal..(I hope) 

(Yah I know with the ability (with this stand) to bend in vertical or horizontal I can go to horizontal for opposite bends. I am just trying to cover ALL the bases here so I do not build something into this I later regret.)

I am also worried about bends with other bends at 90 degrees to them that may be close together. I would hate for my stands design to get in the way of that type of situation...

I might have to reconsider the design to be more like the blue pictured one below. With it at least there is nothing crowding the die area where the bend takes place. That might be worth its weight in gold (gold in this case being redesigning) Any input from you vertical bender users?? Thanx Bill

[SPEC]

I think you really want to keep the die area as un cluttered as possible.
I put my die at exactly MY belly button height..No stooping and easy to hold on to the tubes, for next bend or whatever...
Unless your bending up some funky car exhaust's I wouldn't worry about the down tube stuff,
I bend front hoops and main hoops, one peice- 4 bends, with no troubles, Except when pulling them out of the dies when I forget to pull the shoe
I dunno If this is what you were asking...

[Nutz4sand]

Thats a good bit of it Spec.  Just looking to avoid any errors before I might make-em. Different opinions of things they have done and what might have "got in the way" so to speak.  Thanx 

[Admin]

I use a one way pump and a 2 way cylinder, i put a porta air tank under it with 100lbs of air in side 2 of the cylinder, retracts slow, but does the job, and the cylinder was only 30 bux not 400.00....

[Nutz4sand]

What I am wondering Bug is how your frame is in reguards to the die and have you ever had the frame get in the way of a particular bend??

[Admin]

What I am wondering Bug is how your frame is in reguards to the die and have you ever had the frame get in the way of a particular bend??

Ill take some pics, but no i have never had a problem, when you come to get that damn trans you will have to take a look....