DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: DaveM on December 16, 2010, 02:34:30 PM
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The reincarnation begins...again. Out with the 2..in with the 4...stroke that is.
KLX650 first trial fit looks promising.
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The reincarnation begins...again. Out with the 2..in with the 4...stroke that is.
KLX650 first trial fit looks promising.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc278%2FDavephoto%2FODYSSEY%2Ffirstfit2.jpg&hash=af96d89bcc151a4aec849e33cf95dd21fe41b2aa)
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Dam Dave you change engines as much as I change my underwear. eyes eyes ;D Need to give them more of a chance to get skid marks. bs1 drowning
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Looks like you have plenty of room for at least a couple more cylinders in there! ;)
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Dont forget the turbo. LMAO
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geeesh....speed and more power, Is that all you guy's think about?
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These guys are all RABID rofl
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Dont remember what 2 stroke you had, but any HP loss would be made up with added torque. Single cylinder 650, that piston must be the size of a coffee can.
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I beleive it is bored to 4.012" . 678cc. Nice intake and exhaust port work as well.
I had a 670 Rotax. So I will be down on rated hp, but we'll see how it translates to useable power.
Hemi43's 660 Raptor powered machine and mine were pretty close. I don't think i was utilizing the full potential of the 670 due to the clutch set-up, so I'm anticipating equal or better useable power with this KLX motor. Shifting will add to the fun factor. As long as I can keep him looking at my tail light I won't be disappointed. kick
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I could never see your tail lights from all that friggin 2 stroke oil !! LMAO
If I have to look at your tail lights, I'll be searching for a 700 EFI raptor engine. ;D
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Just go BUSA on BOOOSSTTT!
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Man, I had a KLX650. Great bike, I kinda miss it.
Behold, the Christmas bike when I got a desert tank for it.
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It got all green plastics shortly after that........... The red was such a horrible color......
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progress.
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Pretty nice weld on that sprocket !! ;)
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Will the chain hit the disk? It looks a bit close.
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Pretty nice weld on that sprocket !! ;)
Yeah...this pretty, and nice guy up the road did it for me. ;)
There is 5/8" between the chain and the rotor. Not ideal maybe but should be fine. There will be a guard between them.
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AND THE PLOT THICKENS 8)
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Will the oddy reverse box handle the extra power?
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I beat the tar out of it with the 670 Rotax twin and it held up fine. There may be some different loading on it with the chain drive vs the CVT. Shock loads and decel drag will be a little different but I think it will be ok.
Lots of these things running around with sled engines in them and it doesn't come up often about tranny's grenading.
Maybe I'll just take it easy this year to be sure I don't hurt it. rofl
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Well it sounds like they are quite strong, I have been kicking around the idea of repowering my oddy (when I can no longer find parts that is) with a raptor engine and a stub shaft with a sprocket/disc combination, raptor engines have reverse right? Wonder how well they fit in the frame?
Joe.
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Well it sounds like they are quite strong, I have been kicking around the idea of repowering my oddy (when I can no longer find parts that is) with a raptor engine and a stub shaft with a sprocket/disc combination, raptor engines have reverse right? Wonder how well they fit in the frame?
Joe.
That's what I would do !! get rid of the old gearbox and use the Raptor's.
I'm running a 660 in my buggy, and it's worked flawlessly. I put almost 700 hard miles on it this summer.
It should be interesting at how DaveM's buggy performs with that 650. It had better work well or else I'll be the one towing him out of the trails !! ;D
Dan
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Update.
Still lots of finish and finnese work to do, but all major components have found a home.
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Neat very neat! ;D Although I gotta wonder how the honda FNR box will handel the extra power. OK after posting I went back up the page and saw the chat about the tranny, guess I should have a look before posting eyes ;D
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Got a look at the guts of an Odyssey transmission this week. Pretty nice pieces. The gears are fairly substantial. No visible wear on anything in this one. I think short of bearing failure, it'll take the abuse.
I kinda wish it wasn't 10:1 though.
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Hey Dave thanks for the info the other week.looking forward to a rip in the ganny. how are you running your clutch setup?? foot ? cable or hydraulic
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"Engineering Fluid" pic alert!!
Mmmmmmmmmm.. Budweiser.
Yummy
Car is looking awesome Dave!
Now I'm opening a beer.. THANKS! ;D
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I'll have a foot pedal ,cable operated clutch.
There has been some driveline changes due to a gear ratio miscalculation on my part. It now has the dreaded countershaft/dual chain set-up to speed up the tranny input. thumb down
That brown bottle is only used as a visual size reference, I don't know where it came from, or how the heck it ended up in my shop.
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Are you planning a support for the outside end of the input on the oddy rearend? I know the Honda FWD trannys require it, and the last golfcart I had had a rear like yours...it NEEDED it!
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Any updates ? If you dont mind me asking.what thats red cable from? Im looking for a stout cable to shift a fnr box that im installing my kart.
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I'm not exactly sure where that cable came from, but it is similar to a B&M shifter cable. Princess auto has some heavy push/pull cables in various lengths that work well. I'm using one on the shifter.
I had to re-engingeer the drive, and put in a intermediate shaft due to an oversight/screw-up on the original gear ratio calculations. Not real happy about this, but it is what it is.
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Getting alot of the little stuff finished up in the back, wiring harness half done, still lots to finalize.
And the there's a little precision engineering going on in the front.
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Precision engineering?, involving a sawzall and beer. I'm watching. rofl
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It all look like a tight fit for the motor bounce bounce
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Going to an a-arm front end???
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Yup. A-arms, rack and pinion, steering wheel, clutch brake gas pedals, lots to do, and spring is comin'.
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NICE job looks great.What are you using for the joints.Are they a tie Rod what type of car
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Nice knuckles!
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Beefy looking spindles
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hey i just got to ask how much have spent for every thing to customise that ???
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Ever hear the saying "if you have to ask how much you can't afford it"?
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Ever hear the saying "if you have to ask how much you can't afford it"?
LMAO LMAO LMAO
No one knows how much they spent, unless you write a check for a completed buggy. drowning
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I don't even want to know how much I've spent on racing and buggies over 35 years. I bet I could retire if I had it all back.
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your spindles and a-arms look amazing. geo tracker rod ends ???
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First off...Hemi43 gets credit for the spindles, very happy with them, and the front end geometry lessons so I think I can get the rest of the stuff where it needs to be.
Tie rod ends are Jeep TJ. But beware there are 2 different versions with the same part number from MRC. Old stock vs new stock maybe. Each design has it benefits, but I ended up going with 4 of the ones on the left. And had to buy an odball 11/16-18 tap to make the socket and jam nuts.
Bit of an experiment, but I think it'll work.
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rklausbeasty42. There is more room around this engine than there was with the 670. This motor is a little taller, but much narrower, and without the clutches, expansion chamber, and 2 giant carbs, overall it takes up much less space.
And yeah, it's pretty hard to put a "cost for everything" on this. More time than money really. If I had to pay shop rate there would be way more in labor than parts. I will say though that I have less than $5000 total tied up in this buggy, including the purchase of it a year ago. But bang for the buck is off the charts. We had a blast last season, and I'll only get deeper into it from here on.
The cutting and hacking is done and rebuilding the front is underway.
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Tell me more on how the knuckles are made. Do they have a tapered socket to match the BJ's taper or????????
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k good to know about the motor was realywondering about that money wise thats alot of money you could have bought a new dirtbike for that just saying lol
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I used auto tierods to attach Yama atv spindles. Worked well just limited my travel to 12" with 22" arms.
k good to know about the motor was realywondering about that money wise thats alot of money you could have bought a new dirtbike for that just saying lol
Dirt bike are for those who wish to break a few more bones. rofl
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Tell me more on how the knuckles are made. Do they have a tapered socket to match the BJ's taper or????????
The stub is made from 4140, then welded with high nickel rod to the the body of the knuckle which is made from standard square tubing. I've used square tubing on all the buggys we run, and have had zero issues.
I then machined "caps" that have the proper taper for the ball joints. These then get trimmed and welded to the bottom and top of the square tubing. Usually machining would be after welding, but because I don't want to buy a tapered reamer, I spin the plates on a lathe and cut the taper in that way.
It's really not rocket science, but the single most important thing IMHO in the design is to get the scrub radius correct. I try to achieve around 1/4" inside of the wheel center.
Dan
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The single most important thing IMO is getting rid of bumpsteer. Of course proper scrub radius is right up there with it.
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The single most important thing IMO is getting rid of bumpsteer. Of course proper scrub radius is right up there with it.
In a racecar, absolutely !! In the dirt it's not as critical. I'll take a buggy with correct scrub radius over a little bump steer any day !! My arms will thank me :-)
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I think that scrub is easy to get right and should always be designed correctly. I would not have a car unless the bumpsteer was less than 1/2 inch over 24" of travel. More than one of us here hit near zero bumpsteer over 20+ inches travel. There is a noticable difference in handling when things are right.
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The days of falling off dirt bikes is long behind me. The only one that I would even consider, would be a KTM 990 dual sport. But only because that would be an awesome next engine for my buggy. rofl
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OOOOOHH!! That Purty !! Looks like it would be a bitch to wax though, with all those nooks and crannies !! ;)
I think that scrub is easy to get right and should always be designed correctly. I would not have a car unless the bumpsteer was less than 1/2 inch over 24" of travel. More than one of us here hit near zero bumpsteer over 20+ inches travel. There is a noticable difference in handling when things are right.
If I had 24 inches of travel, my ass would be underground !!
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like that nice motor
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OOOOOHH!! That Purty !! Looks like it would be a bitch to wax though, with all those nooks and crannies !! ;)
If I had 24 inches of travel, my ass would be underground !!
With lesser travel zero bumpsteer is easy to get. Why not design it in?
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Both of Hemi43's buggy's have zero bump steer, as will mine. Upper a-arm location, suspension travel limits, tie rod location on the spindle, all have to get done before the rack location is determined. The rack height is the last piece in the puzzle. I'll find the sweet spot for it. We're only dealing with 8-10" of travel.
Remember, around here the C in CAD stands for cardboard, not computer.
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+1
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Today's progress.
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WHat angle can those ball joints allow? I really like the design you have.
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Interesting use of your empties.
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WHat angle can those ball joints allow? I really like the design you have.
There's 12 inches of travel from one bind point to another. I don't know what that translated to into degrees. Don't forget that we build these as narrow as possible, with Dave's buggy being around 55" from one side of the wheel to the other. The cars you guys have should be able to get 20 inches easy.
He's the guinea pig on these joints, so we'll see how they perform. They have to be better than rod ends, because they are a pain in the ass IMHO !! Rod ends wear out too fast, and need high angle spacers to be able to use them as upper and lower joints.
My concern will be the steering effort, because they are much tighter that rod ends.
With lesser travel zero bumpsteer is easy to get. Why not design it in?
I agree that bump steer is easy to make zero. Both my buggys can be driven through rough terrain with only your thumb and forefinger holding the steering wheel.
Dan
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If you happen to get time it would be nice to get an angle measurement on those BJ's. I agree on the heims being a PITA. Ya,when designed right,steering effort is not an issue. Sounds like we're on the same page.
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There's 12 inches of travel from one bind point to another. I don't know what that translated to into degrees. Don't forget that we build these as narrow as possible, with Dave's buggy being around 55" from one side of the wheel to the other. The cars you guys have should be able to get 20 inches easy.
He's the guinea pig on these joints, so we'll see how they perform. They have to be better than rod ends, because they are a pain in the ass IMHO !! Rod ends wear out too fast, and need high angle spacers to be able to use them as upper and lower joints.
My concern will be the steering effort, because they are much tighter that rod ends.
I agree that bump steer is easy to make zero. Both my buggys can be driven through rough terrain with only your thumb and forefinger holding the steering wheel.
Dan
They'll loosen right up IMO and be much nicer than heims once broken in. I doubt if it'll take even a day to loosen up and stay nice and snug for a long life.
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This pic shows the full motion of the upper joint. Kind of hard to see in the second pic, but it's 59.5deg. Take off a few degree's on either end to keep away from bind, and I think your safe at 45-50* travel.
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I came across a discussion about these tie rods on Jeep and rockcrawler forums. They are said to be high angle.
The concern over the stiffness of the joints was based on holding them in you hand and trying to move them. Now that they are mounted and you can feel the actual force needed, I don't think it will be an issue.
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They should hold up very well . I use to run 16mm automotive tie rod ends in the a-arms of my 250r quad. I cased a jump so hard it bent the frame and only a slight tweek in the ball joint.
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Been running tie rod ends for years
http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=212.0 (http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=212.0)
With out any troubles, They will take some serious abuse and steering effort is neglible
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2 wheels back on the ground. So far so good. Pedals next.
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sharp front end . how much travel ??
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A-arms and tie rod ends will allow 12". Shocks restrict that to 9". 54" width.
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looks good .What happened to the air shocks is that a better shock
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I see spilled beer! :o That deserves a penalty shot for alcohol abuse!
Looking good.
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maybe i missed it.. but where did you get them and what kind of ball joints are those?
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Same Shocks. Ryde-FX Air 2.0
No spilled beer lately. That's a pair of gloves on the floor.
see reply #41 on page 3 for joint info.
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Weekly photo update.
Pedals in, shifter done, dash done, wired and fired up.
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What's this? A race catheter? ;D ;D ;D ;D rofl rofl rofl rofl
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hahaha.. funny stuff..
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If it is he must be hung like horse
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Just read the whole thread...nice swap!
Justin
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Made it to the end of the driveway and back a few times under it's own power Saturday. No unforseen issues. Still a few things just tacked together so I took it easy. The gearing off the line seems good, clutch pedal feels good, shifter works, it turns, it stops, it goes forward and reverse, next level of happiness achieved.
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good to here. are you gonna touch up the desert camo paint? or go with somthing different.
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The camo paint scheme will remain.
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updates???
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It's all together. A few cosmetics to finish up, and final front end alignment at ride height needs to be done. Should be able to do a shakedown run this week or Sunday.
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2 hour shakedown is in the books. Everything went well with only a couple of minor concerns. I have to find the sweet spot for front shock air pressure's. It was a little stiff with what I tried. And I think I better put a bigger rad on it. It did'nt get hot, hot, but it was up to 210* when pushing it.
The gearing is bang on. I could climb the steeper hills, no problem accelerating going up them. Some even in second gear. In the second vid, the point where we stopped for the bike is a pretty steep uphill, no issue starting off on it. I'm happy. The tell tale on the Vapor tach shows 59.9mph and 6200rpm, right where it should have been.
The secondary chain is really movin'. Speed wise. I checked for temperature a few times, and the only time there was any real temperature in it was after a 50 second to one minute run at 50+ mph. I could hold my fingers on the secondary for 5 seconds or so, hot but not to bad, not smoking. No heat in the primary chain. Little bit more slack at the end of the day but that is to be expected.
Ended the day driving it into the trailer. That's a sucessful shakedown in my book.
The only carnage I could find for you guy's is at the 14 second mark of this vid.
http://youtu.be/gMpac1Bsha4 (http://youtu.be/gMpac1Bsha4)
http://youtu.be/S5ilbbYrvNk (http://youtu.be/S5ilbbYrvNk)
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Very cool.How wide are you? that go -pro must be a great tuning device. do you miss the power of the 670?
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Thanks for the vid's. Looks like some of them place's between 4 and 4.5 min's would be a not so good spot to run out of talent. Get's just a mite tight.
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Thanks for the vid's. Looks like some of them place's between 4 and 4.5 min's would be a not so good spot to run out of talent. Get's just a mite tight.
LOL, thats my kind of terrain around here.. Wish I had the open dirt "roads" that he has.. Most of my stuff is like 4 - 4.5 mins (and if I want more, I need to widen the existing ATV trails I've made). Otherwise is 3 x 1 acre fields for me (they get boring in about 3 mins)
Gotta love the go-pro.. I have a Vio POV-1 myself, wish the Go-Pro came out earlier, I woulda saved a ton of money!!
What size tires are you running? The look like 23's or 25's???
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55" wide. I don't miss the 670. This motor works good, maybe down a bit on initial grunt from the 670 CVT set-up, but it will spin the tires on take off, kick the back end out in the turns, and shifting adds to the fun factor. And 3 times the fuel mileage. So far I like it.
We get into some tighter trails than these. That video doesn't show how steep the hills on that trail are. This is our secondary riding area and has a good assortment of terrain, from roads to tighter trails than those in the vid.
Our preffered riding area has much nicer access roads and trails to run, and some really tight stuff that will be a challenge without the CVT.
25" tall tires. Yamaha Rhino factory take offs wheel/tires
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I'll call it project complete.
Bigger rad keeps the temp in check.
Changed the front shocks to coilovers for a Yamaha Vector sled. A little softer/smoother, work good.
4.5 hr ride on Saturday. A small issue with the baffle on the end of the muffler coming apart. Looks like the heat anealled the aluminum and softened it up. The bolts pulled through it. A little loud without it, but not too bad. Chains seem to be holding up ok. Ready to put some miles on it.
http://youtu.be/tCUdVG8DOsE (http://youtu.be/tCUdVG8DOsE)
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Nice job Dave.
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It's amazing how stresses can find their way through a chassis.
I found this under the roll bar padding. One side cracked clean through, other side 2/3's around.
top of the front hoop of the cage
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc278%2FDavephoto%2FODYSSEY%2Fcrack.jpg&hash=789dad73f1e369d9b22fa3806a4a2881afe758c2)
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OUCH! :o :o
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OOOOOHH!! That Purty !! Looks like it would be a bitch to wax though, with all those nooks and crannies !! ;)
If I had 24 inches of travel, my ass would be underground !!
lol you wouldn't believe the difference you feel going from 20" to 24" of true travel!!
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I think that scrub is easy to get right and should always be designed correctly. I would not have a car unless the bumpsteer was less than 1/2 inch over 24" of travel. More than one of us here hit near zero bumpsteer over 20+ inches travel. There is a noticable difference in handling when things are right.
my front end design currently implemented on the rails I build has 1/8" total toe in through 24" wheel stroke. this is unnoticeable on the sand, gravel or pavement to myself. however I have driven a rail with 1" bump and there is a huge difference imo!! so I would have to say get them all correct while your still in the building/designing stage your arms will like you much much more.
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Both of Hemi43's buggy's have zero bump steer, as will mine. Upper a-arm location, suspension travel limits, tie rod location on the spindle, all have to get done before the rack location is determined. The rack height is the last piece in the puzzle. I'll find the sweet spot for it. We're only dealing with 8-10" of travel.
Remember, around here the C in CAD stands for cardboard, not computer.
rofl rofl I know the feeling
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easy fix on the cracks with some extra bracing and the project looks good.
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Secondary chain is toast. :'(
18hrs of hard ridding.
hard and missing x-rings, so heat is suspect.
I can get 3 chains out of a 520X120 link one.
So that's $40 worth of x-ring chain gone in 18hrs.
I'll try a cheaper o-ring chain next.
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Don't we just LOVE chains.
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And you might consider stepping up to a 530 chain.
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I doubt that it would make a difference. A 520 is just slightly narrower than a 530. Otherwise they are the same..
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Don't we just LOVE chains.
Right up to the point of them puking out the back of your ride! kick
Gotta go as many links as possible.... Then add a few more ;)
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+10
Links.
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Don't we just LOVE chains.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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update:
543 hard miles on it this season so far, and other than weekly chain maintenance, all is good.
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870 miles in the book for this season. Still a blast to run these things. No major issues, but there is always room for improvement.
First set of off season mods complete.
from stock Odyssey drums,
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc278%2FDavephoto%2FODYSSEY%2Fdrum.jpg&hash=8ffbb99259c3e7f4a1d49b38bdffe54f9518d7f5)
to Raptor discs. and a softer progressive spring to smooth out things a bit.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc278%2FDavephoto%2FODYSSEY%2F303_4443.jpg&hash=25c7bf960318924e2e9c47b57c93354e0b9d9b24)
rear suspension changes are next.
Hmmmm... then maybe dig into this 10:1 tranny deal, cup holder, paintball gun mounts....got all winter to tweak things.
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Hi DaveM, I am currently working on an fl350 that I am putting a ninja 500 motor in it but it's a little big. I had to place the engine up pretty high to where the top of the engine is about shoulder hieght in order to fit the seat in as well. I was wondering if you had to stretch your frame or move the tranny at all in order to fit in your motor?
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Yes my chassis is stretched 6".
A 500 Ninja twin was one of the motors I was looking at for the swap.
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Where on the chassis did you stretch it? I decided to remove the tranny so that the engine can sit lower.
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The green tape shows where my chassis was stretched, along with longer front down tubes on the cage. The seat mounts and steering column were relocated back about 2" as well. More engine and leg room. It had a 670 Rotax twin in it at this point.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc278%2FDavephoto%2FODYSSEY%2F303_3966.jpg&hash=7b01e202caa429b339ef07f4b2f38d8760b84966)