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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: Yummi on November 02, 2008, 06:51:36 PM
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Internal or external wastegate?
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External I think - I will need to post a picture.
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Now with pics.....
Really, the rust is new -and I think the camera makes it really jump out...
I quickly hosed it off yesterday, let it run to burn off any water - hmmm, guess I need to knock that stuff off - I feel almost embarrassed at this point.
But, it does remind me, yes, the lever does that the spring attaches to does operate freely, and I placed some oil on the pivot shaft when we started trying to figure it out - so, no, it is not simply locked up from rust.
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That's an internal waastegate with just a spring on it.Is there an external wastegate that I don't see?
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What you see is what I have.
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The problem is you don't have a wastegate. The wastegate should be where that spring is with a vacuum line attach to the compression side of the turbo. Compression side meaning anywhere from the housing to the intake mani, but the turbo compression housing is best, keep the vacuum line as short as possible.
So right now you have nothing to bleed of excess boost and if that engine isn't tuned for 20 psi it might go boom boom.
What model of turbo is that? Did it come of a car?
Your best bet would be to get a replacement stock wastegate or you'd have to modify your exhaust manifold to bolt on an external.
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Well hell. Time to clean up somebody else's - wait, now its my - mess.
Always a good time.
What are my options?
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Well do you have the answers to my questions, that's a good start. Yuor best bet is the stock replacement for whatever model of turbo that is. If you can't find one your going to need to cut a hole in the manifold or the pipe going to the exhaust turbine, mount a wastegate flange and bolt up an external wastegate. I'd suggest a Tial, i use one on my turbo Civic, very good and dependable wastegate.
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The problem is you don't have a wastegate. The wastegate should be where that spring is with a vacuum line attach to the compression side of the turbo. Compression side meaning anywhere from the housing to the intake mani, but the turbo compression housing is best, keep the vacuum line as short as possible.
So right now you have nothing to bleed of excess boost and if that engine isn't tuned for 20 psi it might go boom boom.
What model of turbo is that? Did it come of a car?
Your best bet would be to get a replacement stock wastegate or you'd have to modify your exhaust manifold to bolt on an external.
He has a wastegate with just a spring on it.He's missing the boost controlled actuator. Who the hell set that up like that anyway?
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Jeez your a friggin nit picker. Yes there's a wastegate VALVE, exactly why i said there should be one (actuator) in place of that spring. SO sorry next time i'll draw a damn diagram and label everything. I'm still right with the corrections to the problem
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LOL! Yes you're right about the problem. I know it was nitpicking but he didn't know what a wasetgate was and I didn't want him thinking the actuator was a wastegate next time he was bench racing with his buddies and get embarrassed because he described it wrong.I don't know about your buddies but they'd eff with me forever for that one. ;D
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Hey Yummi i think everyone will agree with me on this but if your motor is set up for ten PSI boost when you go get a actuator "wastegate...cuz im gonna bet you will have to cut a hole in your mani and add one...anyhow you need to make sure it has a springs rated for ten pounds. That way you wont ever get more than ten. Also you said it jumps around alot....if i understand you right thats called boost spike. And you wanting the power to be more linear...what its doing now is called turbo LAG. Every turbo lovers nightmare. Even without a wastegate it shouldnt just fly up to 20 psi instantly. Its lagging until it spools completely then wham your at 20 psi. Several things can cause lag. A boost leak is the most common. Also the header can come into play some and prolly the number one biggest reason is a good tune not being used. Ive got a 800 hp honda civic sitting in my back yard that i fought lag with big time when we first built it. Id be strolling down the interstate and downshift to pass someone and the turbo wouldnt spool till about 8 1/2 g's. Id go from just smoothly strolling by someone to being forced back in the seat with my cheeks wrapped around the head rest in a split second. No boost to 35 psi. Ever seen a family hatch back start boiling the tires like it was sitting still while doing 70 on the interstate? Fun but very dangerouse.
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That's a pretty small turbo it shouldn't be lagging much but yeah he's definately spiking big time. Ever figure out what that turbo is, does it Say Garrett, Holset, anything on the compressor housing? Any A.R. markings? We need info
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The car is at the other house. (I have two right now and get to move this weekend - I hate moving)
I checked when I was at the dunes - but did not see any markings - in part I think because the prior guy had it chromed. I will have to shine a light and see what I can find. I did some more research, clearly the actuator has been removed. This also does not look like a stock turbo for a 2.0 liter. I need to look at the flange a bit closer to confirm. Anyway, should have that information, or lack thereof later today.
Spike - yep, that describes it. I don't think it has a leak. Not a lag issue. Familiar with lag, and it spools quickly.
My guess is yes, unless I can figure out what actuator it is supposed to have, I will end up having a flange welded to the header - it is gusseted there, so, it would likely hold.
BTY, Master - thanks for looking out for my backside "... bench racing with his buddies and get embarrassed because he described it wrong." Heck, embarrassed is a state of being for me, so no real worries there; but always good to learn something. Sooner or later we can get my pea brain upgraded to a walnut.
Oh the joys of buying used.
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I'm betting the former owner thought that the spring wiuld be a good way to up the boost.LOL!!!! Just get a new actuator for that t'bo if you figure out what it is.
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Pictures and numbers - The more I think, I might just go with an external gate and call it a day.
Lets see if anybody has any ideas on the actuator and I will do the whole $ vs $$ thing.
Two sets of numbers -
"607-94" and "53T-001"
Tried my best to take pictures.
The only other number is on the chrome housing and that appears to be a serial number and, well, I would have to be part CSI to get it out.
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So after I posted this, I used "the Google" (God I will miss him - just for the laugh factor alone) and came up with a possible match that might help me narrow it down a bit - only one i could find - the guy posted pictures, etc in a forum. PDf of his info is attached. I copied his pictures and - well hell - looks like his "kit" has an external gate? Also looks like the exhaust tube excludes the internal waste gate area?
Any ideas on what the heck this thing is?
(PDF copy of the fourm info is easier to read - jpeg = too small.)
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Save yourself a huge amount of time trying to find the right actuator and get an external wastegate.
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I am a thinking you are going to be right on that.
Besides, that way I can change the springs, etc in the event I ever want to get silly and do such a thing.
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a quick google suggests it's off a "'94 6.5 turbo diesel GMC"
you NEED an actuator!
How can/could have it been tuned for 10 psi without one????
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gpopshop.com%2Fgm14.jpg&hash=d14e92d086c5e3237109251d647f723f045e3e77)
How do you fit an external wastgate to a turbo with an internal one?
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Wow, was that Google or are you just that good on parts?
In any event, despite being too dumb on Sunday to know what the problem was, today I can answer that question. (I really need work to pick up)
You take it and weld the gate in the open position. Rumor has it that must or should be done with tig. You then install a wastegate on the collector right before the turbo. See how simple that is? In my case, I have elected to ship it all off for just that process. So, I twist wrenches and write checks - yep that sounds about like my skill level.
While I do want "better faster stronger," currently I am working on taking my used car and making it "correct and reliable." Oh the joys of used. Still, I am pleased with the car / purchase - crazy huh?
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you block or weld it SHUT not open.If left open you'd get no boost.
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Another day, another tid bit of knowledge. Shut would be correct - may I have more coffee now please?
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it was google and luck 8)
IHI is the brand, GM-4 the model.
Why weld it up? you have one, get an actuator from a wreckers now you know what you're looking for ;)
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I agree.
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UPS man came today. Pictures attached. This issue should be solved now. I will post when it is mounted, etc.
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Did you have someone unwrap everything for you? lol, Who else is in the top picture?
It looks like you have your problem solved. Did you get the proper springs with it?
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Nice!
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Did you have someone unwrap everything for you? lol, Who else is in the top picture?
It looks like you have your problem solved. Did you get the proper springs with it?
She is my better half - and she really is - a remarkable person. She shows up in some of my profile albums.
Springs? What is this spring thing?
I jest,
Yes, I did. 10# should be good to go.
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Is that tuned for 10lbs exhaust pressure or 10 lbs intake? or are they equal?
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Ya don't tune for ex pressure.
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I know, but different turbos will create different intake pressures (and volumes) depeding on the exhaust flowing through them.
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10 intake.
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I know, but different turbos will create different intake pressures (and volumes) depeding on the exhaust flowing through them.
True but that has nothing to do with tuning.You do need to match the turbo map to the engine though. Sort of like a cam change.Bigger turbo (think BIG cam) makes more HP in higher rpm range and a smaller turbo(think RV cam) makes more power at lower engine speeds. An over simplification but a good generalization.
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See, the simplistic approach works for me. Thanks for the info Master - makes sense now how to think of turbo size.
For me - Outfront did the set up. The ecu is a "stinger" from them, and they recently re-flashed it for an unrelated matter. So, they say stick with 10# - assume it is stock 2.0, with "stinger" and away we go. My guess is that this flows more air than the stock 2.0 turbo.
Sometimes it really is easier to let other folks worry about that. I hope to be meeting up with one of the guys over T-day weekend at the dunes - sales call for him, chance for me to pick an experts mind on "next steps." Win win.
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Business deduction weekend-YEAH!!!
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See, the simplistic approach works for me. Thanks for the info Master - makes sense now how to think of turbo size.
For me - Outfront did the set up. The ecu is a "stinger" from them, and they recently re-flashed it for an unrelated matter.
I'm not being narky because you ignored my advice, rather that I fear you are being given advice from someone who has a ve$ted intere$t in what you are doing. Are they the same people who originally "tuned" it with the spring in place of the actuator? What was the "unrelated matter"?
I have some IHI Laboratory documentation (volumes) complete with hand written comments and POLAROIDS! Those guys know their turbo's! I have this opinion because I've seen the way they TEST their ideas.
Welding up a functioning wastegate which was designed to work with the turbo (albeit with a NON-bling actuator) and replacing it with a "billet" generic one is not simplistic to me ;)
Hang on... is it a WRX motor??? which model?
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Fair question Trojan; I don't think that is a snarky question in the least.
That is exactly what a board like this is for - learn from each other and help each other out. I have no doubt that the IHI guys know their stuff.
Here's the deal, nope, they are not the same folks who tuned / built the motor. Had they been, I would not have this issue. I bougt the car used, so I get to clean the other guy's mistakes. The car had a VW, then he installed a JDM - My guess - he boned it up.
As to the bling - I am not a general fan of the bling. Having said that it was my call for a couple of reasons; first, I have no idea how long the current turbo will last, this gives me options should it ever need, or should I elect to change it for a higher volume design. My guess is, no matter how hard you try to keep em running, sand and turbos don't mix very well. Also, it allows some relatively easy tuning of pressure in the event I want to change injectors, etc. Lots of bikes / toys in my past have had "just one more upgrade" till I was "happy," so this allows pressure changes even with the current turbo. Finally, for a buggy motor, and for my driving style, I am sold on the Subaru, it would only be a question of time before I had a bigger or better one. So, I elected to spend more now, and not have to worry too much later. This way I can scavage parts from the current motor a bit easier.
As to the guy selling giving me bad or bogu$$$$ advice? Well, that is always a concern.
I will say this. The guys at OutFront have spent well over two hours on the phone with me - no charge - to fix my car / diagnose it over the phone. They have also fixed stuff at a very reduced rate that was not their due simply because it had their name on it. They have sold me some parts at a lower cost, and quicker than I could get locally. In fact OutFront will tell you ways to save money using oem parts if the application is correct for that.
The charges for this were a fair value in my mind. If you want, I will post a copy of the invoice and the board can tell me how much cheaper it could be done. Frankly I want them to stay in business cause I think they shoot me straight and they know the Subaru. I might have saved a little bit going elsewhere, but in the end the $50.00 is not worth me saying - "Dang - they went out of business?"
As a frame of reference, the majority of the charges were parts - and the price was within my cost on-line, and they charged me a total of 1 hour labor for all the work, welding, etc. Like I say, I would be happy to post a copy of the invoice.
Every now and again, we get to run into folks in this game who are just plain and simple straight shooters. In short, I am sold on OutFront
Hope that helps explain the thought process, and thanks again for watching out for my backside. ;D
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I need to install a pick up for the waste gate pressure line via banjo fitting - I have options - right at blower housing or after inter-cooler before throttle body plate. I have heard that pressure drops after an inter-cooler, so where would it be best to pick up the pick up line at - before or after inter-cooler?
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At the throttle body
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OK, So after the inter-cooler it is - now it gets more tricky (for me anyway.) The plumbing from the inter-cooler to the throttle body appears to be essentially exhaust tubing, (Pretty thin stuff) so I was thinking drill into it, install a bushing for more meat and away I go. Bushing is "black pipe" can this be welded or brazed or what is the suggestion on this?
Picture are worth a thousand, so here you go.
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black pipe welds fine, just clean it up first....
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Brazing would be fine. If you are good at brazing and unsure about welding it.
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Cheers, that filled in most of my "assumption" gaps.
They sound in principal, just like my guys. ;)
It does sound like you have a good tuner. An ECU is an ECU (in general) and in practice are only as good as the tuner. For example, a tuner who is totally familiar with any ECU will do a better tuning job with that ECU than say another guy who wants to use a Motec but never has before.
I have a street WRX ('98) and am very familiar with them. 10 psi is well below std boost. Std boost figures, depending on which year it is, range from 16-21 psi. At 10 you'll only just begin to hit the real power curve. My rexie has a boost controller. When I turn it OFF it only delivers 7 psi. IF you turn it off at the bottom of a steep hill and then half way up flick it back on, the car doesn't break loose but gets VERY squirrely! the power/torque difference is remarkable.
If you're worried about longevity - DON'T BE! my streeter has 260,000 km on it with the original turbo still fitted. it has been modded & tuned at "Wild but not too excessive" for 3 years now and I drive it like my buggy.
I really don't see the point of owning a car like that and driving Miss Daisy around in it ::)
My recommendation for the most cost effective ECU for the WRX is the Apexi PowerFC, less than AU$1k.
You wont need t change injectors until ~23 psi or higher or ~300+ hp (at the wheels).
I asked what year it was because that tells me how much boost it's originally built for.
What grade (RON) fuel are you using?
I expect with US fuel and 10 psi you are only seeing < 120 hp at the wheels?
I run mine on 98 RON and at 18 psi, I get 200 hp at the wheels (similar climate to Florida).
Does the "Stinger" have: knock control? boost control? Auto-tune? Closed loop?
SAND... You might want to try a Centrifugal type pre-filter and double socked filter after that. Try to stay away from oiled types as they can play havoc with your AFM if oiled even slightly too much. Personally K&N aren't good enough for the street, let alone sand. Another thing to remember, get a filter that's big enough to still flow what the engine needs when the filter is half clogged.
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Another thing I noticed is your intercooler mounting. I expect it's virtually doing nothing - even worse - I slightly suspect it's getting heat soak from the engine and virtually no airflow through it, making it worse than not having it at all.
If you were to mount it vertically with 3 inch long pipes, just above the turbo and intake manifold, you would have a MUCH cooler intake charge and virtually NO lag. In this config you would want a heat shield between the turbo and intercooler.
Don't be afraid of getting a cheap ass front mount from eBay and mounting it in the position I suggest. It WILL give you more power than the std WRX one.
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Hi Trojan,
Thanks for all the info - I will get more to you shortly, but here it is late and I am off to bed soon. On the inter-cooler I thought the same, so I made a "scoop." After I bought the car. Without remounting the cooler this was the best I could do to direct more air over the coils. Pictures attached. Will respond to the other post in the am.
Thanks again for all the info and watching out for my backside.
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It does sound like you have a good tuner. An ECU is an ECU (in general) and in practice are only as good as the tuner. For example, a tuner who is totally familiar with any ECU will do a better tuning job with that ECU than say another guy who wants to use a Motec but never has before..... Does the "Stinger" have: knock control? boost control? Auto-tune? Closed loop?
What grade (RON) fuel are you using?
I expect with US fuel and 10 psi you are only seeing < 120 hp at the wheels?
I run mine on 98 RON and at 18 psi, I get 200 hp at the wheels (similar climate to Florida).
SAND... You might want to try a Centrifugal type pre-filter and double socked filter after that. Try to stay away from oiled types as they can play havoc with your AFM if oiled even slightly too much. Personally K&N aren't good enough for the street, let alone sand. Another thing to remember, get a filter that's big enough to still flow what the engine needs when the filter is half clogged.
Hmm, I don't know too much about the stinger. But, here is a link for you. I think they import them from your neck of the world.
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/engine_management.htm (http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/engine_management.htm)
They (Outfront) re-flashed this last summer. My guess is it does not have boost control as it was spiking hence the waste-gate debacle. It is programable by the end user - that will not occur in my world - I know my limits.
With the wastegate, it is set for 10psi, and they say I can run 91 Octane, I ran 100 before, and I need 100 for the other parts of the offroad fleet, so I will stick with 100. (RM2) Should be good for 220hp+ - at the crank is my guess - Once the bugs are resolved, it will get some dyno time (About 9 mos from now) and I will then post the sheets.
As to the exact motor, I have no clue - Again, used. My guess - nothing real special. At this point I am shooting for
1. Safety
2. Reliability
3. Longevity
It has only driven back on the trailer under it's own power once. So, once that occurs with greater frequency, then we will figure out the (4) performance issues
Sand, it sucks, I think I am good on my filter - Lots of surface area, outerwear, etc, etc. Just the devil I choose to play with.
Thanks again for your input, it is clear you know your stuff.
Between the two of us, we can get more than one person to see the light on this board for a Subaru motor in a buggy.
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Good work yummi! Be sure to keep us updated! I'm hungry for a video too! :laugh: