DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
The Machine Shop => Tools/Tips and Tricks => Topic started by: komelika on November 28, 2009, 05:25:41 AM
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I'm sure this is far from original but I have an idea for a bender pedestal the will be integrated so I can remove the bender and use it for my vise and my grinder as needed. I have a length of 2"x3" square tubing that I will cut to 36" and weld to a 12"x12"x .25" plate that will mount to the floor. I'll insert a length of smaller square tubing (1.75" x 2.75") inside the the 2"x3" all the way to the pedestal snd rossete weld it two to three places on two sides. The smaller piece will protrude from the top by about 6" with a pin hole to hold the attachment to the top. I can then build top attatchments to suite any tool that I need to mount. Right now I would build one for my bender, vise, and grinder. It would be simple enough to build and I could swap tools in about 30 seconds. I think primarily it would be a great space saver since I don't have a lot of bench surface. Another benefit is that I can use it in the middle of the floor where I will have more room to work with tubing. What do you think?
Also, I have a enough material to build two so I can mount one permanently near my bench for the times that I need the vise or grinder there.
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Does anyone know what sizes of square tubing are available? I'm not sure if 1.75"x 2.75" is or not. If not, I'll have to figure out what to do for the center piece.
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Your idea will work but the 1.75x2.75 will not be available. Just ask and I'm betting that someone here will be glad to make a stub for ya to use tho.
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I was wondering about that. I think I can get away with two lengths of 1.75" angle opposite of each other and get nearly the the same result and keep costs down.
The black areas represent rosette welds. What do you think?
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Nope. Personally I think if you just made a coupling collar that went around the outside and added a couple of pinch bolts like a gooseneck trailer coupler is done you would be much better off.
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I recently took a heavy wall tube and machined it all the way around to create an insert like that and it was to fit perfectly in 2X3 Tube just like you have stated above. The sizes to fit inside 2X3 are not available. Not sure if the angle will work without grinding a radius on them asth ID of the tube has a big corner radius.
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red is pedestal tube,black is collar,blue is pinch bolts
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Thanks for the input guys. How tight of a fit could I get with the collar? What size tubing would I use? The reason I ask is because of the tourque that using the bender will create would constantly loosen the pinch bolts if there is any slop between the collar and the pedestal. Right?
What if I went with a smaller insert? I could use a 1.75" x 1.75" 11g square tubing centered in the pedestal with through pin to keep the attachment square and snug. Again, black areas are rosette welds.
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You won't loosen the pinch bolts. Any slop is taken care of by the pinchbolts being 90* to each other and pushing the tube tight against the opposite wall. Make your collar with only maybe a 1/16" slop.. Make the collar from 4 pieces of 1/2x3" or so plate welded together. You're building a buggy so this should be no problem.
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You're building a buggy so this should be no problem.
Ouch! Simmer down brushfire! LMAO
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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I heard Fabr called ALOT of things...
BUT NEVER BRUSHFIRE
LMAO
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I kinda like it!
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I kinda like it!
Its yours! LOL
I'm trying to figure out how to do this with readily available materials simply because I don't have a shop full of cutting tools and I don't want to pay the steel yard $10 a cut either. I'd love to have the budget to go drop a wad on a plasma cutter, but it aint in the cards. Especially since I just dropped $800 on tools to build this buggy. So yeah, I have all the faith in the world that I have the ability to do certain things. It is the means to do certain things that tends to kick me square in the ass.
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$10 A CUT?!?!?!?!! Damn,they really stick it to ya there! I gotta ask though.How you planning on cutting the tube and stuff? I'm not TRYING to be a smartass either. THe reason I ask is that the first 2 cars I built I used a hacksaw and a fricken file. I didn't have so much as a grinder. All I had basically was a drill,a hacksaw ,a file and an ancient scratch start TIG rig. I farmed all my bends out. Simply put, I did what I had to do to get what I wanted. Where there's a will there's a way ya know. Fortunately that was over 30 years ago. Now I'm a spoiled rotten old BRUSHFIRE! LOL!!!!! I'm REALLY glad those days are behind me. We're behind you and know that you'll get the job done. When you hit a hard spot ,as we all have,someone here will jump right in and offer help. Be sure to feel free to ask any and all questions you wish and keep the pics coming.
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What do you think of this? The left is pedestal. The right is the attachment piece. The red pieces welded in and ground flush. Everything should fit flush and tight and the pinch bolts cinch everything down.
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$10 A CUT?!?!?!?!! Damn,they really stick it to ya there! I gotta ask though.How you planning on cutting the tube and stuff? I'm not TRYING to be a smartass either. THe reason I ask is that the first 2 cars I built I used a hacksaw and a fricken file. I didn't have so much as a grinder. All I had basically was a drill,a hacksaw ,a file and an ancient scratch start TIG rig. I farmed all my bends out. Simply put, I did what I had to do to get what I wanted. Where there's a will there's a way ya know. Fortunately that was over 30 years ago. Now I'm a spoiled rotten old BRUSHFIRE! LOL!!!!! I'm REALLY glad those days are behind me. We're behind you and know that you'll get the job done. When you hit a hard spot ,as we all have,someone here will jump right in and offer help. Be sure to feel free to ask any and all questions you wish and keep the pics coming.
Yeah, when I built my welding cart I had a plate cut out of some scrap they had laying around and the cut cost $10! Caught me off guard too.
I have an angle grinder and a Milwaukee chop saw in the garage and a notcher on the way so the tubing shouldn't be a problem. Cutting plate into pieces would be a chore though. Hey, I appreciate the encouragement for sure. That is the best thing about the internet. You can find people that know how to do what you want to learn how to do and the possibilites are endless.
And since I'm so picture happy today, here is my welding cart. To date, this is the only thing I've ever really fabbed in my life. I dig it! It was welded with Flux core and has been converted to mig now.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz74%2Fkomelika%2F100_0626.jpg&hash=bcddb1765a3a2e004d9236dbb1a55bb65a9e9411)
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More common and maybe better for the task woulkd be 2 inch metal like a hitch reciever uses. Easier to find to I bet. With longer pieces of a tight greased fit (get your minds out of the gutterz.... :P) it would be stabler than the short distances you propose above.
The bender part will need to remain solid or at least not tippable in degrees. As you pull on the tube to bend it if the bender slides any degrees in the mount and you do not account for it the tube will likely be bent off by at least that much! (and thats if you was dead on to begin with)
The bender need not be level (but that nice if it is. IMO)
But if its off a few degrees you will need a plane of bend measuremnt and work off it. If the bender flexes it will be off. If the bender tips any. Unless you account for it. You would need to measure the top of the bender in at least two different directions then double check afterwards.
IMO you are asking for issues doing it this way for the sake of easy change to vice etc.
What I would recommend is and anchor plate on the floor with studs. The anchor oplate remains there and you unbolt the whole stand to put the new stand there for different tools. The studs are a tripping hazzard but its the price you pay for this kind of deal. You can cover them when not in use with a piece of wood with beveled sides so its not so bad and not gonna kill you if you fall on it.
I know its not what you want to hear.
I do not see the device you made above holding a bender solid enough myself without it being hydraulic and all the forces being contained in it. Its your game though.
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I agree with the rigidity also but there are several that have used benders mounted like he's suggesting. I've even seen some that were literally using the receiver hitch on the truck! Would I like/do it? NO,but it does work. I like the pedestal mounted to the floor but he hasn't the room
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Oh and nice cart. With some practice you'll be as good as most of us. Most of us can only wish we had the skills of a few here. I wish I had the eyes/hands some do !
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I know he is hurting for room Fabr. I am just pointing out a few things that might affect his bends.
Nothing worse than your first few bends being all screwy and you are not aware of why.
Might be worse yet if someone could saved yah the headache and did not! One would like to think that someone at least showed you how to work around it to get the desired results.
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More common and maybe better for the task woulkd be 2 inch metal like a hitch reciever uses. Easier to find to I bet. With longer pieces of a tight greased fit (get your minds out of the gutterz.... :P) it would be stabler than the short distances you propose above.
The bender part will need to remain solid or at least not tippable in degrees. As you pull on the tube to bend it if the bender slides any degrees in the mount and you do not account for it the tube will likely be bent off by at least that much! (and thats if you was dead on to begin with)
The bender need not be level (but that nice if it is. IMO)
But if its off a few degrees you will need a plane of bend measuremnt and work off it. If the bender flexes it will be off. If the bender tips any. Unless you account for it. You would need to measure the top of the bender in at least two different directions then double check afterwards.
IMO you are asking for issues doing it this way for the sake of easy change to vice etc.
What I would recommend is and anchor plate on the floor with studs. The anchor oplate remains there and you unbolt the whole stand to put the new stand there for different tools. The studs are a tripping hazzard but its the price you pay for this kind of deal. You can cover them when not in use with a piece of wood with beveled sides so its not so bad and not gonna kill you if you fall on it.
I know its not what you want to hear.
I do not see the device you made above holding a bender solid enough myself without it being hydraulic and all the forces being contained in it. Its your game though.
Thanks for the feedback. The only difference I see in this idea and the optional pedestal that can be ordered with the bender is the interchangeablity. I wouldn't mount studs in the floor. Instead I would put heavy duty concrete anchor inserts and use 1/2 in lag screws and washers to mount the pedestal. That would eliminate the trip hazard when they aren't in use. I can't imagine the 2"x3" square tubing flexing much under load, especially if it is reinforced with 1.75" square tubing rosette welded down the base.
I agree with the rigidity also but there are several that have used benders mounted like he's suggesting. I've even seen some that were literally using the receiver hitch on the truck! Would I like/do it? NO,but it does work. I like the pedestal mounted to the floor but he hasn't the room
It will be mounted to the floor with 12"x12"x .25" plate. That is a pretty large footprint. I have enough room for that. It will be mounted in the middle of the garage at the garage door.
Oh and nice cart. With some practice you'll be as good as most of us. Most of us can only wish we had the skills of a few here. I wish I had the eyes/hands some do !
Thanks! I know I have a lot to learn, but all in all I think it was a pretty good start for a newbie.
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Thanks for the feedback. The only difference I see in this idea and the optional pedestal that can be ordered with the bender is the interchangeablity. I wouldn't mount studs in the floor. Instead I would put heavy duty concrete anchor inserts and use 1/2 in lag screws and washers to mount the pedestal. That would eliminate the trip hazard when they aren't in use. I can't imagine the 2"x3" square tubing flexing much under load, especially if it is reinforced with 1.75" square tubing rosette welded down the base.
Its not the tube itself flexing so much as the joint. It can be tough to make a joint with truely no flex. A longer tube would be better IMO.
It obvious you have put some time and thought into yours. But I just wanted to make sure you knew that for bending it cannot move ANY!!! OR if it moves you will need to adjust for it. The longer a tube (your bending) is the farther off it can be with this movement.
The pedastal it comes with will have no slop in its joint! lol Due to no joint.
Thus the bender will remain perfectly in the plane it started bending in. If it was not level to start with it will not be when its done. You just need to account for that before the bend (plane of bend).
IF the bender moves ANY the tube might (will likely) be quite far off.
Just trying to make you aware of a potential problem and that you are able to guarantee it does not plague you.
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I know he is hurting for room Fabr. I am just pointing out a few things that might affect his bends.
Nothing worse than your first few bends being all screwy and you are not aware of why.
Might be worse yet if someone could saved yah the headache and did not! One would like to think that someone at least showed you how to work around it to get the desired results.
I agree completely! I wasn't arguing witcha.
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DO NOT use lag screws and shields. They WILL NOT do a decent job ESPECIALLY if you plan on putting it up and down. A better solution would be to drill larger holes and use anchor cement or epoxy anchor to embed a 1/2" coupling nut in the floor.Insert it aqbout 1" below the floor surface with a well greased bolt in it. In a few minutes when the anchor or epoxy has set remove the bolt. Rock solid insert and when not in use insery a countercunk bolt in the inserts to keep them free of debris. Otherwise I like your plan. I guarantee you you will regret the lag bolt/screw method.
BTW,I'm in the building business and I've seen WAY too many failed lag screws/shields.
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My bender stand started like this one below and went off the deep end! (more on that in other threads) but I started wanting a nice one like this.
It would be decently easy to make something like this that collpased flat too fit against the wall. Yet was solid when up. The cylinders not a ton of loot but it does use a lot of air.
Just another idea for thought.
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Good idea on the mounting. I like the idea of an epoxied nut better. Back to the flexing problem. This should take care of that. The red outer pieces would be welded to the pedestal. I could weld nuts on them to hold the cinch bolts in. This idea development discussion is fun!
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nice welding cart. what are the dimensions on it, if you don't mind me asking?
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Thanks! I'll have to take the measurements again. I'll post them tomorrow.
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The welding cart looks good. Only problem I see is the rear castors, where the cylinder sits, are in too far. Fine as long as welder is on cart, but if you take welder off cylinder does a flip. Ask me how I know. LMAO
I like the idea of bender being interchangeable/removeable. Mounted SOLID. Always had too much crap in way for horizontal bending, so I prefered vertical. 10' ceiling not a problem with long tubes, yet. But always outside. Built a new air/hydrolic bender on castors for Turkey day. Pics as soon as I find camera.
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nice welding cart. what are the dimensions on it, if you don't mind me asking?
The bottom trey is 11.5" X 30", the top trey sits 14.5" above the bottom and is 11" X 20".
Yeah, I wish I would have put the casters back a bit. I'm using a little 55lb bottle so I don't think it would flip, but I would probably remove it if I remove the welder to be on the safe side. If I eventually go with a heavier bottle then I may flip the rear castors around to position them further back or get rid of them and mount bigger wheels further back. Thanks for the feedback.
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What size wire you runing in it? looks good. 8) Might make one for my plasma cutter. Thanks for the idea.
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.35
The chart inside the welder says .35 is best with gas for the thickness I plan on welding. Others may think differently, but since I have no experience welding I am just going by manufacturer's recommendations.
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.35
The chart inside the welder says .35 is best with gas for the thickness I plan on welding. Others may think differently, but since I have no experience welding I am just going by manufacturer's recommendations.
That is the size I run in the Hobart 250 when welding DOM. Have you done some test welds yet? I usualy take a scrap piece and run a couple beads to fine tune the welder before I weld. Is that unit a 120amp or 140?
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Its the HH 140, which has a range from 25 - 140A. I haven't had a chance to weld with it yet since I converted it to MIG, but I will be building another cart for a friend this weekend. He traded me the casters for a welding cart so now I have enough casters to build a rolling frame table for my cuda build.
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Made some progress on the pedestal. Picked up a 12' stick of 1.75" Square. All they had was 14g but I think it will do just fine. Got my 2"x3" cut to 36" long (had enough to build two so I will have one mounted permanently next to my workbench), cut the 1.75" to 42". The 1.75" fit perfectly into the 2x3" square. Drilled 3/4" holes in the pedestal for the rosette welds. I just need to drill my 12"x12"x.25" floor plates for mounting bolt holes (really wish I had a drill press!) and then I can weld the upright to it. I was looking at the concrete anchors and they have 1450lb rating each. I plan on using four so I can't imagine them not being enough to hold up to the torque applied during a bend. Should be able to finish this on Friday. Working more OT this week so time is tight.
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Don't want to rain on your parade but IMO 14 ga is not nearly substantial enough. There is a LOT of torque involved when you are tugging on the end of the 4 foot or so lever of the bender. If it were me I'd back up,regroup, and get some 1/4" wall unless you are building a hydraulic powered bender. Even if so,when using the pedestal for the vise it will be pretty shaky. The anchors sound like they are just 1/4" bolt size? If so I would also suggest minimum of 3/8" if not a full 1/2".
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I'm with Fabr on this one...
14 GA. will stretch and deform under that much load over that distance :-[
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Well IT IS a TUBE BENDER!!!!!!!!!!!!! ahhh hah hah ha har de har har! :P
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Heheheheee, wrong tube! LOL!!!!! heheheheeee
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Guys, the 14g is reinforced by the 2"x3" square tubing from the floor all the way up to 36". It will be only be stand alone for 6" and then capped on the top to box it in for strength. Also, the 2"x3" will have tabs welded on with the cinch bolts in place. I'll post pics before I weld everything together. The anchors are for 5/16".
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ff:
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You can see the three rosette welds (plus three on the backside). The only place the inner square can bend is at the top of the 2"x3" which will have the cinch bolts plus .25" plate welded to the sides. I'm thinking it is going to be pretty strong.
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The top of the inner square will be capped for strength. If I need to then I can weld in some plates to cap around the inner square as well.
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When the cap with attachment slides over the base and the cinch bolts clamp it down the torque is going to be distributed across several contact points and will not be concentrated on the 1.75" square tubing. The inner square is going to act more as a guide to square everything up when attached and to strengthen the base during the bend.
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We're watching.
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Hitch receiver stock=Done.
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Yeah, but how much fun would that be?
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Made some progress today. All in all, not bad for a newbie I guess.
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I have a total of 5 rosette welds. It should stay pretty rigid when the bender is on it.
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Not real impressed with my welding here. I still need to run a dedicated 30A circuit for my welder. I had it set to 4/40 since the plate is 1/4" and I could get about 20 seconds in before the breaker would trip (and that is with the lights off). I think I got in a bit of a hurry because of that. Still having a tough time figuring out wire speed. I know I need to turn it up for the thicker material, but it seems like it just doesn't penetrate before it starts pooling up. So then it looks like bubble gum sitting on top of the metal instead of melting into it.
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I'm going to go with half inch bolts. It works out because I already have a 3/4" mason bit. I don't think this thing is going anywhere. I have some epoxy left over from my patio project so I may epoxy the shields in and use lock washers to keep everything in place when I'm using my grinder.
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Next, I need to cap the inner square to give it a little more strength. I will probably close in the top of the outer square as well. Might as well box it all in. It may be overkill, but that should help with any possibility of deflection.
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The mounting tab for my bender is ready to weld on to the attachment tubing.
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I know I need to turn it up for the thicker material, but it seems like it just doesn't penetrate before it starts pooling up. So then it looks like bubble gum sitting on top of the metal instead of melting into it.
If you are talking at the start of a bigger weld when you are welding thick materail with a small welder (at its outer limits) I have found it can many times help to heat the metal where you are gonna start with a propane torch (or better torch if you have it) till its real hot where you are gonna start. Makes it take to the weld better.
EDIT: For that matter heat the entire area some so its all warm if its only a shortish distance.
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I thought of that. My torch is in the back of my truck and my wife is bringing it home as we speak, but I was too impatient to wait for it. I had a couple of hours to myself and I wanted to get something done! LOL
I still have one more pedestal to build that will be permanently mounted next to my work bench so I plan to pre-heat that one. I may end up using that one for the bender if I get better penetration on it.
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Made a little more progress today. Got a chance to use the torch my F-I-L gave me. That is going to take some practice! The cuts looked like complete crap! My welds are getting better though. I just have to stop forgetting to turn on my shielding gas!
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More progress! This is really coming along now.
The biggest problem I have is that I get excited when I get busy and have to concentrate on slowing down and taking my time. That is the biggest problem I have and some of my welds show it. The good news is that I am gaining confidence in my abilities and that should help when I start my build! This is the best practice I could have asked for before diving in on the cuda.
I know this is very basic stuff here, but I am completely new to this so forgive my excitement! rofl
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz74%2Fkomelika%2FWelding%2F100_0917.jpg&hash=3fd30a3486d3c35c87090d23b4fd9a6af6001db2)
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Lookin' good.
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Thanks brushfire! rofl
I think I am going to go with your idea on boxing in the joint to keep it from deflecting. I don't think it needs cinch bolts if I do that. It should be pretty snug without them. It'll give me a reason to use my cutting torch some more. I just need to go buy a tip to cut the 1/4". I think the tip I have is rated for thinner metal.
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Gees mate for a newbie those welds look pretty Damn good!! :o Well done..
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Thanks man! They're getting better, just hope they can hold up to a high speed roll (in theory of course)!
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Looks good Tommy,
I think I would weld some gussets on the bottom plate to the upright...You'd be suprised how much stress will be there when you got a 3 foot pipe on the bender and pulling 3 feet above the mounting poit at the floor
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I've been thinking about that. Probably worth the time to do it. The inner square is also welded to the bottom plate so that should make it a little stronger than it looks. I've also been contemplating filling the tubing up with sand to eliminate any vibration.
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Yeah like Spec said! I assumed that you hadn't quite finished yet, but ya know the problem with that!!
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Komelika. When you weld do you make a u weld or side to side? Just wondering how you got the roll of dime look. Mine for sure do not look like that. :-[
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I use the Half moon (CCCCCCC) technique. So far it is hit or miss. I think it mostly depends on getting the wire speed dialed in just right before it looks neat like that.
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A little more progress! Got my collar welded in.
it doesn't look too good, but it will work. Welding upside down is a beotch!
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz74%2Fkomelika%2FWelding%2F100_0957.jpg&hash=31c4c9f373b8eb5e266ea3a293d81ed084246cab)
I tach welded the attachment to level. I'm going to drill a half inch hole from left to right and put a 1/2" pin through to hold everything steady.
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Managed to clean my garage! It needed it.
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Overhead requires more heat.
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Update!
I think it is finally ready for paint. My cutting torch tip finally arrived and I cut out my gussets and got them welded on today. Going to start my table on Friday and wire up my welding circuit. Should be ready to start my build by the end of next week!
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz74%2Fkomelika%2FWelding%2F100_0966.jpg&hash=46e2a7ed0911fc6d460d069ab0a4211335c1c63c)
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