DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: fabr on August 05, 2009, 06:58:03 AM
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I'm interested in everyones opinion on best practices for building and mounting gas tanks. Show us what you got. Of course like nearly all of us I will be building mine but I have a couple of questions as to placement. Does anyone have any real concerns about having the tanks fitted beside the driver/passenger like this on specs buggy? I don't really seee any safety issues with this position anymore than elsewhere for offroad driving. Might make for a better balanced car?
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do you guys use gas bottles for petrol tanks over there, by gas l mean lpg that you have in bottles for use in fork lift trucks and things, or is it considered dangerous or not suitable over there,
l have never liked the idea of fabricating up a tank from sheet metal and then subjecting it to twisting forces as you bounce around the countryside, l just feel its bound to leek sooner or later but l am probally wrong since you guys have been doing it for years and havent had all your buggies reduced to smouldering wrecks,
heres a link to a buggy l biult on a vitara ( sidekick tracker) chassis a few years back half way down the page is some pics of how l have done tanks in the past, the strong construction of a lpg tank sort of gives me confidence that it will survive a heavy roll or impact
http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=4499&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 (http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=4499&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30)
as for where to mount it, dont think there is a good/safe spot, if it mounted low down then it above you when you are upside down :o
so l think its a case of put it where it fits best
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Master I use rubber grommits in the mounting tabs for vib mounts. works well
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I saw picturees of a roller where the tank was mounted under the rear seat - large flat tank - made good sense to keep the cg low - it was a four seat car.
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I see your point on the fabbed up tanks but I'd also not wish to cut into an lp tank for any reason. THere was a member that suggested overlapping the pieces and welding the inside corner instead of welding on the outside of a corner. Don't know if that made any sense how I explained it or not.
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Yeah,I'd LIKE to put it under the seat but no room. I'm thinking of possibly doing the side tanks. I also like the idea of the side tanks for the natural sump the tall skinny tank would provide.
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I see your point on the fabbed up tanks but I'd also not wish to cut into an lp tank for any reason. THere was a member that suggested overlapping the pieces and welding the inside corner instead of welding on the outside of a corner. Don't know if that made any sense how I explained it or not.
cant say as l blame you for not wanting to cut into an lpg tank, dosent sound safe practice dose it, although a lot of folk over here cut a 12 " sqaure out of the side and use them as workshop stoves/heaters,
l think the standard practice is to undo the valve, put a hose pipe in and fill them with water and then cut into it, on the assumption that if its full of water then there cant be any gas left in it
l supose location of the tank on the buggy depends on where you are going to use the buggy, side tanks on a buggy used in the dunes dosent sound unduly dangerous ( not that l have ever seen a dune in real life ) over here there is an abundance of trees to slide into and side impacts or glancing blows are common enough that l think the tank would end up split, under or behind the seat sounds safer from a protection point of view but l think l would worry about sitting on 10 gallons of petrol seeing how well/fast it burns :o
not an easy one is it
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cant say as l blame you for not wanting to cut into an lpg tank, dosent sound safe practice dose it, although a lot of folk over here cut a 12 " sqaure out of the side and use them as workshop stoves/heaters,
l think the standard practice is to undo the valve, put a hose pipe in and fill them with water and then cut into it, on the assumption that if its full of water then there cant be any gas left in it
Not good - if you are going to cut into one - place dry ice chunks into it - the ice will melt leaving CO2 that will not ignite. Water will turn to steam, and that shit burns.
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Not good - if you are going to cut into one - place dry ice chunks into it - the ice will melt leaving CO2 that will not ignite. Water will turn to steam, and that shit burns.
l was thinking of cutting in to the tank with a 2" holesaw in a battery drill rather than something hot like a torch or plasma, or as you you say would be pretty steamy
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi259.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh311%2Fandyhaycock%2Fgastank.jpg&hash=b955031c8d695d540f278f46223f85ec5a1e33e5)
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I agree that perhaps racing on a track or trail running the side tanks MAY be a bad idea but for open dunes/desert not much worry about side impacts.
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l was thinking of cutting in to the tank with a 2" holesaw in a battery drill rather than something hot like a torch or plasma, or as you you say would be pretty steamy
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi259.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh311%2Fandyhaycock%2Fgastank.jpg&hash=b955031c8d695d540f278f46223f85ec5a1e33e5)
Chips from a holesaw are pretty hot. If I were to cut into a tank I'd purge it with argon , CO2 oir some other inert gas first
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OK,has anyone given any thought of a kevlar or carbon fiber composite tank? If so what would a person do for a bladder or liner for it?
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Not good - if you are going to cut into one - place dry ice chunks into it - the ice will melt leaving CO2 that will not ignite. Water will turn to steam, and that shit burns.
Just don't hit it with a hammer it will shader into pieces. ???
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Here's one of the tail tanks I made for a Piranah, and a Cuda tank.
Yeah sorry master I didn't read too much of what you had written I just wanted to show off the tanks I did! ::) I was look'n at Specs buggy last night actually and I don't know that I'd be too happy siting right next to that much gas, but that's just me. ;D
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OK,has anyone given any thought of a kevlar or carbon fiber composite tank? If so what would a person do for a bladder or liner for it?
I know you can get carbon/kevlar C02 tanks for paintball guns, and even the tanks for the carbonation pump at the maccas I work at seem to be glassfibre.
I guess you would need to mold something dissolvable (polystyrene foam?) into the shape of the tank you want and then wrap it with a couple of layers of pre-preg and a few fittings. Cure it and dissolve the core, and away you go?
If you are using polyester resin, would it need a liner?
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Here's one of the tail tanks I made for a Piranah, and a Cuda tank.
Yeah sorry master I didn't read too much of what you had written I just wanted to show off the tanks I did! ::) I was look'n at Specs buggy last night actually and I don't know that I'd be too happy siting right next to that much gas, but that's just me. ;D
What difference does it make whether it's beside you or behind you? If it ruptures you're fried anyway.
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I know you can get carbon/kevlar C02 tanks for paintball guns, and even the tanks for the carbonation pump at the maccas I work at seem to be glassfibre.
I guess you would need to mold something dissolvable (polystyrene foam?) into the shape of the tank you want and then wrap it with a couple of layers of pre-preg and a few fittings. Cure it and dissolve the core, and away you go?
If you are using polyester resin, would it need a liner?
Ethanol dramatically reduces and degrades polyester resins. Epoxy resins are very good for tanks but will also degrade in the presence of ethanol but not nearly as bad. I'd want a bladder or at least an ethanol proof coating inside it if I did one.
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I went back through and looked at the pictures of your car - as big as it is, it seems to me this should be an easy task but it does not appear to be. When do you post new pictures?
Also, i find it hard to believe that you did not design in a place for the tank? You just pulling everybody's leg ain't you?
Not much room behind the seats to the motor? That would be ideal IMO. The second option is to mount two tanks to either side of the motor. It looks like there is room there for two custom tanks? Problem with that is the heat. Don't know where you plan on putting the battery, but it could always go ahead of the passenger compartment at the foot well area?
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I pondered long and hard before putting the tank there ;D
Behind the seat wasn't good...Chain,hot pipes and secondary...all bad for the tank :-[ ...Already had the rad. up front I didn't like the Idea of having it between my legs like on alot of the stadium lites....I figured the least evil place was there...I rolled/broke it out of 14ga. with baffles, stuffed it with foam...for the filler I flapper valved used a dot approved filler neck, coiled vent tube to keep all vapor away from me, and fuel from leaving the tank in a rollover...If I had ever finished the bodywork the UMHW panels that I used on all the 460's IMO would have kept 99% of every body off of the tank...Here's some better pix
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There are definate flaws to the side pod tank theory...I'll be the 1st to tell you that...Especially when on the sand...Lukes car was an easy 3 times as large as mine...Fabr's is 4x bigger...If they T-boned me on the tank side...I think the cage would have kept them out...but a couple more bars wouldn't hurt...It did make a good arm rest...What's hard to tell from the pix is the fillerneck is inside the cage so it couldn't get hit in an impact
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I went back through and looked at the pictures of your car - as big as it is, it seems to me this should be an easy task but it does not appear to be. When do you post new pictures?
Also, i find it hard to believe that you did not design in a place for the tank? You just pulling everybody's leg ain't you?
Not much room behind the seats to the motor? That would be ideal IMO. The second option is to mount two tanks to either side of the motor. It looks like there is room there for two custom tanks? Problem with that is the heat. Don't know where you plan on putting the battery, but it could always go ahead of the passenger compartment at the foot well area?
Yes I planned for it behind the passenger seat beside the engine.Can fit approx 8 gallons there. Haven't calculated the volume yet. Possibly add extra capacity with a smaller one mounted below the header with a heat shield on the drivers side behind the seat. There is room for a common sump or a crossover under the engine just behind the seat. Not pulling anyones leg. This is more of a theoretical topic. No room really for side tanks but I do wonder about that placement for the future. Seems like a good place to me. Battery will mount in front of passengers legs if I don't use the second tank. Plenty of room for that. Where the battery goes and whether or not a secondary tank is used depends on capacity of main tank when fabbed.
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Place not to far from me called Engineered Fabrics. They make hot air ballon fabric, those parade floats and fabric fuel cells for the F-22 Raptor. Some kinda of kevlar bladder, not a ridgid tank. Kinda floops around like breast implants. ;D
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There ya go! I'll look into them.
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In case you meant the fuel bladder her you go:
Engineered Fabrics Corp
669 Goodyear Ave
Rockmart, GA 30153 Map
(770) 684-7855
If you meant breast implants then your on your on.
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Thanks,I tried their website but its down. I'm wondering if they do one offs?
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The F-22 contrct was just canceled, they may be looking for lots of side jobs.
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LOL!!!!
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How bout getting a flexible bladder, put a little air in it, and then wrap it with glass. That would give you the abillity to form it into the shape you want, have a hard shell, and protection against rupturing on impact. It also solves the fuel eating the resin problem.
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Where to get a custom bladder that doesn't cost a fortune?
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That's your problem, I'm happy with an aluminum tank. ;D
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Anyone have any experience with this stuff?
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html (http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html)
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Anyone have any experience with this stuff?
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html (http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html)
Yup, I've used something similar by a different brand. Seems to work just fine. I usually put two coats in the tank. After that there's zero pinhole leaks.
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So have I but not this brand.I read good stuff about it but .................
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It would appear that the Toyota Prius, has a collapsable tank
see here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf (http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid13.pdf).
just a thought , but maybe not exactly what you are looking for
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Well that's interesting.I wonder what the resin is?
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that is something I don't know, but maybe your friendly neighborhood Toyota tech might know?
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;D
When welded propperly...
I use the stuff from eastwood and that works great...
I'll see if I can find the link
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you mean this one? I think most of these are basically the same as they say alcohol resistant. That's like buying a water resistant glue. Don't let it get near water or you'll find out what water "resistant" really means. I'm afraid the alcohol "resistant" coatings are just the same.
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This is an epoxy type. I'm thinking it may be best. Any opinions?
http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm (http://www.caswellplating.com/aids/epoxygas.htm)
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I have dealt with this company. Great product!
http://www.por15.com/Fuel-System-Restoration/products/12/ (http://www.por15.com/Fuel-System-Restoration/products/12/)
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Baloo...is that blue tank an LP tank or freon tank? I get as many freon tanks as I'd like to have...they aren't but about 3 gallons though. Your pic doesn't look much bigger?
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Isn't por15 just alky resistant?