DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: Admin on April 18, 2009, 05:53:49 PM
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Well I did manage to get 2 days of hard riding in... Pulled it on the trailer to leave tonight and noticed I had some carnage, So, I already have a plan, I will follow up as it progreses... I did not take many pictures, Spent to much time riding, No video, as the camera wouldn't have did any good with the lens covered... Awesome group of guys Hoodlum, Throttle and gang, Look forward to another trip...
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And the carnage.. Both trailing arms have large cracks in them as well, Hard to photo...
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And a few to start the projects progress...
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Yikes! That frame was about to let go!
Are the bolts in the trailing arm bent? Or are they angled that way to be parallel to the rods?
I can't see the cracks in the trailing arms...... Point them out.
Was this from woods riding? ;D Did a tree jump out in front of you? ;D
The lower mount pulling out on the frame would be from landing from jumps, and the tire trying to rotate upward around the top rod. Has it been bottoming out much?
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I am 99% certain the mount was cracked on the bottom previously, The trailing arms, Both sides, top and bottom bar is cracked at the redline, No tree, Just running hard...
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Top link bolt is built that way..
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So realistically if i put a gusset and mounted the shock mount on top?
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Gusset = Good
Move shock mount to top would reduce some of the stress on the lateral rods. Not sure what it would do to ride height, and droop..... Cv- angle. Are you going to move the top shock mount as well?
I was thinking about it, and moving the shock out would actually increase travel, because the shock would be more laid down.
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Gusset = Good
Move shock mount to top would reduce some of the stress on the lateral rods. Not sure what it would do to ride height, and droop..... Cv- angle. Are you going to move the top shock mount as well?
I was thinking about it, and moving the shock out would actually increase travel, because the shock would be more laid down.
The top mount need to move anyways, It needs to be moved to add some clearance at full bump, So i will indeed move it, i am thinking i will also move the trailing arm back to straighten the axle up a bit more...
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Do you think the wheelbase change will have much affect? It will put more weight on the front. Also if you move to far back, it will affect how the lateral rods are set to lean forward. I wonder why they did that instead of running the axles straight out? Was it to shorten the wheelbase for better turning? Even though they could not shorten the motor/FNR combo, the axles leaning forward allowed the wheelbase to shorten.
What is the wheelbase? Looks like quite a bit more than a pilot.
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Quick question, when you nail the throttle from a standstill, does that thing squat or stand up and go?
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It is a bummer to brake stuff, i am sorry to hear of your carnage. Knowing you it will be back up and runing quick.
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Ken Hell Bug! :o Sorry to see the damage.
I too had my rear arms crack 90% the way around the top n bot tubes at the hub.Only thing that stopped the wheel assem flying off at the last races,was that rear shock bracket welded to the hub.Very lucky I was.I gusseted mine as well.As Tom says,when ya own a Drak,take ya welder along! ;)
Hope ya get it all fixed,Better and stronger.....till the next cracks appear somewhere else on the buggy.My front shock mounts to chassis section cracked as well.
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Quick question, when you nail the throttle from a standstill, does that thing squat or stand up and go?
It does not squat.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hdIqGly8C4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hdIqGly8C4)
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Do you think the wheelbase change will have much affect? It will put more weight on the front. Also if you move to far back, it will affect how the lateral rods are set to lean forward. I wonder why they did that instead of running the axles straight out? Was it to shorten the wheelbase for better turning? Even though they could not shorten the motor/FNR combo, the axles leaning forward allowed the wheelbase to shorten.
What is the wheelbase? Looks like quite a bit more than a pilot.
Dont know the numbers but its a good 16" longer probbaly...
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now you see why I tend to overbuild shit.
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another
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I see what the car looked like.... I can imagine what you looked like. ;D
IMO moving the shock closer to the wheel will reduce the twist induced into the rear carrier. If that carrier somehow came up over the tire and the shock was mounted centered above the tire, the only forces that the two rear bars would have to control would be side loads from cornering. But the further that the shock moves from the center of the tire, the more twist put into the carrier. The force on the tire is pushing up, the shock is pushing down. The twist is controled by the two rear links.
The pictures that BuggyBaz posted shows how the breakage is occuring. The tubes the shock mounts are attached to are separating from the rear carrier. The gussets that he added to make the shock mount rigid to the rear carrier portion were exactly the right thing IMO. the only thing I would add is possibly some boxing to tie the front and rear shock tabs together better, because the front one is still mostly just attached to the two tubes. If the gusset he added went on over to tie both shock tabs together, and to the carrier it would be great.
Moving the shock location could reduce the stress on both the inner and outer mounts. I can't really tell by the pictures, but it seems that the spring cup is only an inch or two below the edge of the carrier / tube. If the shock mount were raised enough to get the spring cup above the tube, you could then move outboard an inch or two reducing the twist on the rear links. If at the same time you were high enough to move back a bit, and get the mounts right on the boxed portion of the rear carrier, it would be a bonus. That might raise the bottoming heigth while reducing stress on the mounts.
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Quick question, when you nail the throttle from a standstill, does that thing squat or stand up and go?
The Arm running forward has no torque induced into it by motor power (except the bearing drag) so the only lift it would get is due to the amount that the arm is at an up angle from horizontal. It doesn't look like much.
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wow, that sucks, we rode the utv track alos. thats fun. we came across a red pilot sunk in the mud, a atv pulled him out, Bob went around the hole but didnt want to jumop the stump he did so a few guys moved a downed tree for me
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Yup that was betel, that mud hole got wollered out terribly bad... I think Hoodlum went back with his razr and rescued him, right after that betel hit a stump and put the pilot on its side, that sucked to as it did some damage...
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The Arm running forward has no torque induced into it by motor power (except the bearing drag) so the only lift it would get is due to the amount that the arm is at an up angle from horizontal. It doesn't look like much.
I was thinking less about how the damage occured and more about the reasoning behind the tires being forward of the center carrier. I know it has been discussed before so I will keep my thoughts to myself. I got the answer I needed.
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I have seen a number of that style arms crack and crack and crack there. I think theres a lot more flex going on then was designed for.
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I agree, I am more worried about reducing the force on the chassis myself... I really should just convert it to a 5 link and be done... But i will likley just fix this for now..
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I am curious, was that mud in the frame tube or rust? If it is rust, does the frame have vent holes? I have seen this in quad frames before. I have put saddles[larger diameter tube welded on] where mounts go on tube I don't think is thick enough. I have also seen tube used as a gusset on the outside of tab to distribute load. You have probably thought of these repairs already, just throwing out ideas. tim
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It was just mud, I likely will put a larger piece of tubing over the hole, I will then get my buddy :) to waterjet me some plate work so all 4 attach points are connected together... And spread the load through the chassis..
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maybe Mike will let us have an event on the utv track, all you guys can come down and show the side x side guys what its all about :)
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Hey Bug,was a pleasure meeting you in the flesh, and hope to see you again soon...We talked yesterday, and I think we will be back around the second weekend in Sept.....Had an awesome time!!!!! Got home around 8 last night, so today I get to unload all this crap!!!! It's worth it though....
Hoodlum
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Glad you made it home safely. I will look forward to another trip, All tho you can always come again before Sept even with no large group.. ;D
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oh yes, come on down
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Ill get my motorhome down there as well, so its a bit less expensive for 2 or 3 guys to stay, 25.00 per night.. Only way to stay with 8 guys is a cabin tho... ;D
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Mrs. bugs prowler is getting dusty...I hear Bugs watching the kids soon...Mama's makin the next trip ;D
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This cad guy Knows his stuff... :) He can take credit if he so wishes, Thanks a ton once again..
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Fabber, Or anyone for that matter, you see any reason to weld both sides of the plate were the tubes pass thru? I have the washers welded up and the center tubes welded in, have to finish cleaning off paint to weld it solid to the chassis yet...
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I see no reason to even try.Looks good to me.
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Good, I Didnt even want to try, lol... I left the tubes sticking out, Figured i play it safe migging them, as i am certain if i tried to inset it i would have burned something thru, lol..
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;D ;D
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Looks good!
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Besides reliving the rear tube slots a few thousands, it fit like a glove.. ;D
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Bonus...
Rick S water jetted them?
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New upper shock mounts, and trailing arm heim dbl sheer plates...
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Little progress, slowly but surely....
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Looks good, sometimes they just don't build things strong enough for us gearheads. Tim
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Looks like the upper shock mount is in line nicely now. What is the ETA for testing?
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I got to get a few more pieces yet, Likely wont have them till late next week, so probbaly the weekend after...
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My first good try at autocad....
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Brake disc? Still coming over for B-day?
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It is a brake disk, But not what ill be using, Rick S is drawing the useable part.... Yes ill be over next weekend...
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Here is the shock mount gusset, Not my drawing...
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Hate to see the "bad try." ;D
Here it is....... It's 20.5 inches across so I am not sure what you would do with it. ;D Maybe mount a barstool on top of it!
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here is my 3rd or 4th try, to the right scale :)
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I think you need to center your bolt holes between the cutouts and rotate then move the slots in. Thin material at the edge may want to burn. The slots lined up with the cutouts makes for very little material also. If you want to email me your file, I will modify and send it back so you know what I mean. Then you can just trash it if you don't like it. If it is autocad I should be able to do what I described in just a few mins.
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Whole idea was for it being symetric, I am not using it anyways, Rick has drawn up the useable rotor...
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??? ??? ??? It would still be symetric..... Just email me the fookin file so I can show you what I mean. I'm too lazy to draw it from scratch to make a point.
I figured out what you meant and see the problem... I had points aligned but when i fillet, I had 2 different radius which back the points up... ;D
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Haven't updated lately but i am making progress, I am waitng for my lateral links back from Rick, the first time i fxxked up the measurements so he is remaking them... Besides that a quick spray paint job and i can start outing it back together...
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For some shit talkers!! Ill have a better vid camera next time...
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It lives!!
Any carnage this time? :)
From an engineering standpoint, I don't think those lady gussets were absolutely necessary at the front of the trailing arms. ::)
But nice touch anyway. ;D
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Them pics are a few weeks before breakdown, I am waiting for a couple parts from rick yet, it will be done besides the links by Sunday... Ya the ladys dont do much, just a "check that out piece" I probbaly could have gotten them a little closer to even, but ya cant see both sides at the same time anyways...
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If you needed some I could have sent you some so you didnt have to cut them. I have a box full of them 8)
Looking good BTW
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If you needed some I could have sent you some so you didnt have to cut them. I have a box full of them 8)
Looking good BTW
Ya, I added them to the cut list for free anyhow, I was not planning to use them.. ;D
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Cpl more..
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Now time for reassembly...
Last minute change to add a skid under the trans...
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Few more
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Since you were just about rebuilding the whole back of the car, I would have modified the right side CV spacer such that the brake disk mounted outside the CV flange and the CV bolted right to the gear box flange. Then I would have moved the gear box to the right centering the CVs again. It would have gained you 1/2" of axle length per side which there should be enough spline to do.
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Since you were just about rebuilding the whole back of the car, I would have modified the right side CV spacer such that the brake disk mounted outside the CV flange and the CV bolted right to the gear box flange. Then I would have moved the gear box to the right centering the CVs again. It would have gained you 1/2" of axle length per side which there should be enough spline to do.
Id have to relocate the engine to match... would only gain me about 1/2 of length, the travel it has is plenty for what it is IMO... :)
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When I tweeked the rear t arms I actually reduced the overall width of the car as well... I have not measured the travel, but the shock is limiting the cvs have a lot of angle left in them......
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You would just increase the thickness of the spacer behind the clutch by 1/2" The width of the outrigger bearing is more than that so you probably would not have to do anything there.
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The outer bearing was like 5/8 i think, only would be held on with 1/8 engagement. Either way i am not Messing with that, it works fine as is, I haven't mangled any cv boots except the originals...
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That caliper mount looks great. With that gusset it shouldn't go anywhere.
In reality, the gusset was mainly to hold the bracket from warping during weld... :) Tho it will keep it from flexing like the last one...
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Looking good Bug - they're worthwhile mods with efficient design.
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Thanks fellas, now if they just do what is intended ill be all set... Maybe someday i will mod the engine and trans, But got to win the lottery first... :)
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Good work bug --------and collaborators that is! Heheeheheeee Nice job guys.
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Since I had my shocks off I figured I would get the spring rates sorted out, My neighbor works for a Professional Porsche race team, And they happened to have a spring rate machine, Went today and checked out the shop, Right by Road Atlanta's Gate, very cool, Anyhow my rates on the rear are 110 over 230, and the fronts are 115... I am thinking they are a bit soft as I have a lot of preload, So I may mess with some spring rate changes in the near future...
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Just for Rick... :)
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New trailer is gonna work superbly... I took it for a tow this morning and hell I can barely tell the difference between dragging it and dragging my old 14 single axle.. Just have to adjust the brakes a bit, One side is a bit tighter than the other and it kinda pulls the trailer sideways when applied at first...
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thats a nice rig. how long is the trailer? does the van pull all that ok?
I would like to have a 3/4 converstion van to pull my stuff with.
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thats a nice rig. how long is the trailer? does the van pull all that ok?
I would like to have a 3/4 converstion van to pull my stuff with.
14' deck, 42" dovetail, van pulls it great, Motorhome you forget its back there...