Author Topic: single unit sled setup  (Read 6566 times)

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Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2011, 09:00:15 PM »
the idler shaft(just below the engine) can pivot on the top hole forward and backward a total of 1.5" and the rear axle cassete can slide forward and backwards a total of 2". You can see what I mean in the pictures in the first post. I will adjust the tension of the front chain and then adjust the rear chain. If you look at the picture of the back of the unit you can see two .5" holes. There will be two adjuster bolts there to pull the rear cassete back to the right tension. I may have to figure out something to keep the idler shaft from moving once it is tightened, but I am hoping that the adjustment of the rear cassete will keep it where it should be.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 09:09:21 PM by Stomper »

Offline fabr

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2011, 09:17:01 PM »
Without determining sprocket tooth count and therefore sprocket center to center distances that may or may not be adequate without first starting out with the approximate correct centers. You MAY have gotten the cart before the horse. No big deal for now but I'd suggest you NOT do anything but tack things together till you nail down a few details.
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Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2011, 09:35:53 PM »
Good point. I will get it completely together before I weld anything.

Offline Engineer

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2011, 10:38:02 PM »
Cool thats what I was hoping!!

The top gear(driven clutch) is a 21 tooth gear and the bottom gear(drive shaft) gear is a 39 tooth. I will be using 27" quad tires with 12" rims. As far as power goes I want the bottom end torque and power instead of high top end speed. If I can get 60mph top speed with bottom end power that would be fine with me.
As said before there will be a chain from the drive shaft to the ideler shaft and them another chain from the idler shaft to the rear axle sprocket. The rear axle sprocket has to be a max of 12 " in diameter. I hope this is the info that you need. And thanks for the help guys I realy appreciate it!

Ok,

So first I went here to look up your 12" max sprocket size for the rear:  http://martinsprocket.com/2001/SecEa.pdf#E43

A 50 size chain sprocket with 58 teeth has an outside diameter of 11.9 inches.  Depending on your clearance you may want a tooth or two less but we will go with 58 for the calcs.

I don't know anything about sleds....  Does the output shaft of the chain box directly drive the sprocket that drives the track?  The reason I asked that and the top speed of the sled is because that would be the easiest way to figure the output speed of the chain box.

In order to figure it without that info then we would need to know the top speed of the engine as well as the final ratio of the CVT when it is shifted into high.

There are some things we can figure and I will guess on the rest and you can fill in the correct numbers later.

If your tires are 27" you take the diameter times pi (3.14) to find the rollout = 84.78"

If you want a top speed of 60 mph then we need to convert that to rpm to figure out how fast the drive axle needs to be turning.  So 60MPH divided by 60 minutes in an hour = 1mpm times 5280 ft/mile = 5280 ftpm times 12 inches per foot = 63360 inches per minute. 

So 60 MPH = 63360 inches per minute.  Now we know the rollout is 84.78 inches (the distance we travel for every rotation of the tire).  So we divide 63360 by 84.78 and we come up with 747 RPM as the desired top speed of the rear axle or tire.

Your chainbox gearing of 21/39 gives a reduction of .538.

As I said I know nothing of sleds so...  I will assume that the motor runs 8000 RPM and that the CVT is 1:1 when it is shifted to high....  That would mean that the input to the chain box is turning 8000 RPM.  With the reduction of .538 (8000 X .538) The output of the chain box will be turning 4304 RPM.

So 4304 RPM at the chainbox and we want 747 RPM at the rear axle. 4304/747 = 5.76.  We need a 5.76:1 ratio between the chainbox and the rear.  With the 58 tooth sprocket that we calculated before 58/5.76 = 10 It shows that we would need a 10 tooth sprocket at the output of the chain box to make it work if we don't use a double reduction.  10 tooth is to small so it is good that you have the double reduction. ;D

With the double reduction you would just need both ratios to = 5.76 when multiplied together.  So if we used the 58 tooth on the rear axle and a 20 tooth driving it on the jackshaft that would be 58/20 = 2.9:1  So 5.76/2.9 = 1.98  We would need another 1.98 in reduction from the chaincase to the jackshaft.  I don't know how big of a sprocket you can fit under the motor on the jackshaft but if you went with a 40 tooth then you would need 40/1.98 = 20.2 or a 20 tooth on the output of the chaincase.  You wouldn't want to use a 40/20 thought for the reasons that Fabr cited. (wear patterns)  38/19 would be better...

So that is all probably clear as mud.

That is all based on guesses for the motor RPM and clutch ratio.  If you can give better information on those numbers or tell me the size of the track drive sprocket and the top speed of the sled then I could get you more accurate numbers.  Also It would be good to determine the max size of each sprocket location.  Rear is 12", what is the max size on the jackshaft and what would be the max size on the chaincase output.  You might as well get them as big as possible to reduce pressure and increase wear life.

Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2011, 08:43:04 PM »
Sorry for the late reply. I have been having computer issues. I hope this is the info that you need.
The sprocket (proper term is driver) that spins the track on a sled is on the output shaft (bottom) of the chaincase. On this particular sled it was a 7" diameter.
The top speed of the sled would be 100 - 110 mph.
The max diameter of sprocket that can be instaled on the shaft under the engine is 3.5".
The max diameter that can be innstalled on the output shaft of the chaincase is 7"
As far as the reduction of the cvt, I have no idea, sorry.
If it would work out better if I go to a 25" or 24" tire, that would not be a problem.
If you need any other info please ask.

I was talking to a fella on MBN and he is using a Polaris 500 engine. He has a 16 tooth top sprocket and a 21 tooth bottom sprocket in the chain case. A 12 tooth sprocket on the output shaft of the chain case and a 40 tooth on the rear axle with 24" tires. He says that his buggy pulls hard up to 55 mph and is very happy with the setup.
Just thought I would mention that.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 08:48:03 PM by Stomper »

Offline Engineer

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2011, 11:09:01 PM »
Sorry for the late reply. I have been having computer issues. I hope this is the info that you need.
The sprocket (proper term is driver) that spins the track on a sled is on the output shaft (bottom) of the chaincase. On this particular sled it was a 7" diameter.
The top speed of the sled would be 100 - 110 mph.
The max diameter of sprocket that can be instaled on the shaft under the engine is 3.5".
The max diameter that can be innstalled on the output shaft of the chaincase is 7"
As far as the reduction of the cvt, I have no idea, sorry.
If it would work out better if I go to a 25" or 24" tire, that would not be a problem.
If you need any other info please ask.

I was talking to a fella on MBN and he is using a Polaris 500 engine. He has a 16 tooth top sprocket and a 21 tooth bottom sprocket in the chain case. A 12 tooth sprocket on the output shaft of the chain case and a 40 tooth on the rear axle with 24" tires. He says that his buggy pulls hard up to 55 mph and is very happy with the setup.
Just thought I would mention that.

OK, 100 mph is 105599 inches per minute.  IF the sled track sprocket is 7" then 7 X 3.14 = 21.98" rollout.

105599 / 22 = 4799 RPM for the output speed of the chain box.  This would take into accout whatever the max engine rpm is, thru the CVT and the chaincase reduction.

Unfortunately it is a higher number than I had figured so you need more reduction.

Rear axle = 747 RPM
Chain Case output = 4799 RPM
4799 / 747 = 6.42:1 reduction

With only 3.5" available on the jackshaft a 15 tooth sprocket will be the max size at 3.32 OD.

If you went with a 12 tooth on the chaincase you would get a reduction of 15/12 = 1.25:1

6.42:1 / 1.25 = 5.136 meaning that you still need a 5.136:1 reduction from the jackshaft to the rear.  With a 58 tooth rear that would take a 11 tooth or so on the jackshaft.

The chain from the chaincase to the jackshaft will see way less tension than the chain from the jackshaft to the rear axle.  However it will be going quite a bit faster.  It might be best to use a 40 chain in the front and a 50 in the rear.  With the 40 chain you can get more teeth and better gearing in a smaller size.  The jackshaft size is limiting your gearing options.

In a 40 pitch chain a 20 tooth has an OD of 3.45".  If you went 40 pitch 20/13 on the front you would get a reduction of 1.54 requiring only 4.16:1 in the rear leaving you with 58/14 in the rear.

A 40 pitch 13 tooth sprocket is only 2.33" OD.  IMO longevity would not be good using that small of a sprocket.  You could use two 40 chains from the chaincase to the jackshaft.  That would help.  It looks like the clearance issue on the jackshaft is to the bottom.  Is there a way to get more clearance for it?

If you went 58/13 on the rear it would give 4.46:1 leaving you needing 1.44:1 on the front.  In 50 pitch chain if you used 15/11 it would get you close.

There is nothing magic about these calculations.  The truth is if I was building it I would want to be able to add or subtract a couple teeth somewhere to tune the setup.  I don't know how the weight of what your building will compare to the weight of the sled that the motor cvt and chaincase came out of, but we went from a top speed of 100 down to 60 so will have definately picked up low end power.  I don't know that you would need to fully reach the gearing that I figured.

Summation:  A starting point in 50 pitch chain would be (Chaincase to jackshaft) 11/15  (Jackshaft to rear axle) 13/58.

chuckorlando

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2011, 05:58:36 AM »
This is why I went with a polaris 400 2 banger out of a quad. I'm right at 65hp with trail ports and pipe and an rzr dont stand a chance in the sand drags. Thats not to say you could'nt max out the rzr. But then again the 400 can drop 90hp with off the shelf parts as well.

Now I think I want a 600 cycle power. So that chain case has reverse correct? What machine is this for? From the looks this is gonna take more cradle space than a cycle engine yea?

I wish I coud help with the gers but I'm afraid it's like german to me

Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2011, 08:49:26 AM »
WOW engineer that is some crazy figuing :o. There is room for me to move the jackshaft under the engine higher but I would have to weld op the holes and cut them higher. I have to start some where so I will go with your calculations. If I went with a 16 tooth gear in the top of the chain case would give more of the reduction  that I need.
BTW thanks

Offline Engineer

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2011, 01:08:26 PM »
Can you change the gears in the chaincase?  If you can get more reduction there it would definately help.

I see that it would be difficult to move the jackshaft location, unfortunately with the limiting size of sprocket on the jackshaft you can hardly get any reduction with the front chain.

Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2011, 02:54:32 PM »
yes I can. Would changing the top gear in the chain case from a 21 tooth to a 16 tooth give me more reduction in the chain case.

Offline Engineer

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2011, 03:14:06 PM »
yes I can. Would changing the top gear in the chain case from a 21 tooth to a 16 tooth give me more reduction in the chain case.

Yes.

Can you get a chain that would fit that?

Stomper

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Re: single unit sled setup
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2011, 04:16:02 PM »
Yes I can

 

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