DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Machinery, Trailers, Toyhaulers and Motorhomes => Trailers, Toyhaulers and Motorhomes => Topic started by: dsrace on January 13, 2021, 07:12:57 AM
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fabr...... you had meantioned some time back, that you didnt care for slipper springs on light and med duty applications. can you elaborate on that?
i ask because i'm getting ready to order a custom trailer with dual 7k axles and debating standard leaf vs slipper. i do not like torsion axles as i have seen there limitations many times.
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fabr...... you had meantioned some time back, that you didnt care for slipper springs on light and med duty applications. can you elaborate on that?
i ask because i'm getting ready to order a custom trailer with dual 7k axles and debating standard leaf vs slipper. i do not like torsion axles as i have seen there limitations many times.
Could you expand on the torsion axle issue? thanks
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;D where do i start ;D so if you look at the construction of them, you'll see how/why they wear quicker. now they do offer a smoother ride and an independant ride for sure. be extremely careful taking thos trailers off pavement. torsion axles do not handle the side loads mounds/bump/holes in fields or back roads trails. once they start wearing they add camber to the wheel and on some trailers there isnt suffient clearence to the inside edg of the wheel well lol ask zoomies about that one lol he blew 2 tires on the way back from waynoka. you can overload them easier than a standard axle. the best system is what moryde are building. for $8k they better be damn good :m now i'm not saying there bad just not for myself. the vast majority of my toyhauler travels are on pavement. when i go home to the ranch i have 15 miles of sandy roads then i cut down the field where i park. i have gone down a back road or two from time to time. just for grinns and giggles........ do a quick search and look at how many horse trailers use torsion axles. again they are smoother especially with a shock absorber. then again most everything is smoother with a shock absorber. i state the above based on what i have either experienced or seen/heard from close friends of there experiences. i have a fair number of family that cattle ranch. none of those stock trailers are torsion for a reason.
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I'll reply tomorrow,Busy now..
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Completely agree on the torsion pros and cons. If I had a trailer that would never be off road or continually needing tight/near jack knifing turns I would definitely go torsion again. I still have a 45 footer with triple torsions and they do ride much smoother than springs. TOrsions with triple axles have proven to be quite hard on the center axle when turning tight. Off road or on rough terrain there is no equalization of the load like shackle springs or slipper suspension offers. Therefore each axle can be easily overloaded on rough terrain or going through intersection dips in the roadway. Bottom line is torsions are best suited for highway transportation and limited offroad/uneven terrain.
Slipper spring suspensions are just noisy. Slippers will require less maintenance and they do avoid the issue of shackle wear. Slippers are in reality heavier duty in that sense.Slippers ,in general allow less articulation between axles compared to shackles though. Just depends what you need. Slippers are not a bad design.I just don't like all the squeaking.Personaly, on a dual axle 7K each setup I'd go with shackle suspension.
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Completely agree on the torsion pros and cons. If I had a trailer that would never be off road or continually needing tight/near jack knifing turns I would definitely go torsion again. I still have a 45 footer with triple torsions and they do ride much smoother than springs. TOrsions with triple axles have proven to be quite hard on the center axle when turning tight. Off road or on rough terrain there is no equalization of the load like non slipper suspension offers. Therefore each axle can be easily overloaded on rough terrain or going through intersection dips in the roadway. Bottom line is torsions are best suited for highway transportation and limited offroad/uneven terrain.
Slipper spring suspensions are just noisy. Slippers will require less maintenance and they do avoid the issue of shackle wear. Slippers are in reality heavier duty in that sense.Slippers ,in general allow less articulation between axles compared to shackles though. Just depends what you need. Slippers are not a bad design.I just don't like all the squeaking.Personaly, on a dual axle 7K each setup I'd go with shackle suspension.
where i can only imagine the extreme loads of a triple axle i did not know the center axle take the brunt of it. good to know and i wouldn't go torsion anyway. 100% correct on not equalizing the load.....i failed to meantion that above.
so slipper springs were offered as an option and that's why i asked. i will go with standard leaf springs on 7k axles.
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fabr, on the last trip you asked what i hated about the overnighter..........the cad print above answers that question. ;D
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Well the boat trailer didn't last long. 5: Thanks for answers about torsions. Mine rides good, never sees any off road and is only loaded to 6k but is rated for 10k. :nw
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fabr, on the last trip you asked what i hated about the overnighter..........the cad print above answers that question. ;D
I guess I'm missing something. WHere does the car go? On the roof?
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Well the boat trailer didn't last long. 5: Thanks for answers about torsions. Mine rides good, never sees any off road and is only loaded to 6k but is rated for 10k. :nw
Love how the 45 footer rides for sure. I can leave stuff on the counters and it never falls off.Somewhere around 10 years and you need to start considering the condition of the rubber in the axles if they have been ran near capacity usually..Torsions,in the right application are very nice. they don't tolerate overloading well though.
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Another thought on torsions is the clocking position of the torque arm has a huge effect on the ride "softness". The closer to parallel with the ground,the smoother the ride. The further the arm clocking position begins to angle down or up the harsher the ride becomes.
Torsions are available in about 8 different clocking positions.
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fabr, on the last trip you asked what i hated about the overnighter..........the cad print above answers that question. ;D
I guess I'm missing something. WHere does the car go? On the roof?
inside through the rear ramp gate lol that's what the 165" is for. found a company that specializes in custom toyhauler floor plans. casey has drawn and redrawn 6 cad prints for myself to get the floor plan exactly how we want it. he said we do custom and i said..... really, lets find out lol the cad print above will be 29'6" over all length and on the bumper. 26' box with a bumped out nose to scoot the bed forward to gain 16" on the floor. a 36" flip up counter top on the L shaped kitchen counter top. had to do that as my wife wants her kitchen back! was informed of that after the first trip! there base floor plan weighs in at 6700 lbs so a guesstimate with the side patio is 7k lbs. not bad considering 8' side wall. with the 8' side walls he gave me an 8' tall ramp door on the rear for a lighter loading angle. he also let me choose two 7k axle ( larger break shoe model as well) with 16" rims as well. dual ac units and 50 amp service. decided on the 12v dometic fridge and i got the solar prep to support it on longer trips. a number of other extra's as well like 1000lumen lights on all 4 sides, power roof vents with rain sensors, flip down ceiling mount tv etc etc i might be the only one that asked for a smaller tv and a shorter manual awning ;D lol i just don't see a 21' awning as having a long life and the current power awning was a bad experiance imo! btw power awning fuse is labeled radio in the breaker panel. that's why couldn't find it on the last trip! what's really funny is the fact the units don't come with radio's! dune sport out of mesa arizona is the name of the company. tried to give stw trailer a shot but he didnt respond to my messages. the fool has to know i can see that he viewed the message and now he purposely ignored them lol
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Well the boat trailer didn't last long. 5: Thanks for answers about torsions. Mine rides good, never sees any off road and is only loaded to 6k but is rated for 10k. :nw
there are a few reasons it didn't last long. the one reason i wanted it and still really like it is for how easy it tows! with that being said i was VETOED rofl my daughter, son in law along with my grandson would like to attend a trip or two so we need room for them to stay with us. i don't want my grandson or daughter staying the roach motel in town. maybe it's gotten better/cleaner so who knows.
i have no doubts your torsion axle trailer rides quite well. torsion axles are cheaper, easier for the manufacturers to install and manipulate ground clearance with. if yours doesn't have shock absorbers then i would add them and it's pretty easy to do with torsions.
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i had thought about something like the pic. i could enclose the rear on site and still get less wind drag in tow. out of 3 companies that offer them, A.. they do not, will not, offer smooth sides, only riveted or screwed, for that reason i am out. B.. they want $25k for that trailer with only a small bathroom and ac unit on the roof!
(https://i.postimg.cc/yk5hCrXL/627-8-5x16-White-Basic-Porch-Cargo-Trailer-001-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yk5hCrXL)
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when he let me add the side patio for $3300 we were sold! that's the thing we love about the overnighter. genesis's customer service .... i hate!
this is on a fifthwheel and i ordered a bumper hitch model for the additional cargo space. also went with the reversable couch , no bed. the couch flips into a queen bed but seats 4 as a couch and will face the tv that flips down off the ceiling.
the reason i asked about slipper springs is they can offer those. i declined as i didn't know much and sounds like for the best on this lighter weight application. add the morryde armor rubber equalizer instead to dappen. https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Leaf-Spring-Suspension/Lippert-Components/LC696740.html?feed=npn&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhv7ZhMCg7gIVvPbjBx2S7gV5EAQYBCABEgIrZfD_BwE
https://youtu.be/GahWwLGUd-k
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here is a video of a 26' like we just put a deposit on. this is a customers custom build but based on the there basic floor plan. you can see in the print above how we changed that. this video is 5 years old so the new interior is updated.
hard to tell in the video but the 8' side walls are only in the back 1/3 ish as the nose tappers up like a wedge shaped. this appealed to me for less wind drag as well as head winds. doesn't look horrible plus function trumps form in my book. i went aluminum corrigated sides and fiberglass nose. yes they will dent easy, but , they will not de-laminate. 500 lbs lighter as well! i have ins for hail lol they also use a slightly better insulation on the aluminum sided vs fiberglass because of the build process. also went with an agm 200 amp hr battery mounted inside under the bed for easy access and to keep it out of the elements. that fridge only pull 3.8 amp according to dometic. the batt alone would easily carry it to st a dunes but with a 100 watt solar panel on the roof it won't be a problem ever. deleted all wall mount furniture as we have the 80" long couch, for max cargo room. still have access to the kitchen, bath and bed with the rail loaded. no genny as i wanted the full under bed storage accesed from the outside baggage door as well as the flip up bed with gas struts. never needed a genny either. everything in our unit will be 12volt except the 2 ac units. we went with remote controlled roof ac's non ducted. the ducted are nice as there slightly quieter but inefficent as the temps in those roofs get very hot on hot days. that warms up the cold air and drags them down. this way i have a dedicated 13.5k ac to freeze my ass out in the bedroom lol in the cad print you'll see i had them add a vent through the wall at the ceiling from the ac in the bed room to the bathroom. max fan power vent in the bathroom and over the cook top in the kitchen. added a 48" window in the patio wall as well as a 30" door with screen door and window. an opposing 48" window on the left side wall so it gives the illusion of more space. casey earned his money working with me :m ;) :m the man has a lot of patience rofl
https://youtu.be/3xSRbKLA5z4
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this company is factory direct. i asked about warranty claims out of state. he not only sent me an email speilling out what is and isn't covered but how the warranty works. also explained that 80% of there builds are out of state, so not an issue. no middle men dealer ships to deal with! gives a 2 year full warranty on all appliances and fixtures as well as a chassis warranty. i'm pretty impressed over all so far and i have to give him credit for always returning my messages in less than 24 hrs! they answer when you call and promptly return messages! that's a big one in my book for a manufacturer!!!!!
they charge $995 for a full 200 watt solar system. they charge $179 for the solar prep which is a fully pre wired 30 amp renogy controller w/o digital display. they added a 1.5" pvc tube out the roof ( with cap of course) through the wall to the battery so i can pull wires. the renogy 30 amp controller is pre wired to the distribution panel, to the battery and he's running wires to the roof cap for me. if i go with 300 watts and max the controller out i can pull additional wires this way. had them oversize the batt cables in case i decide on a 2nd batt and 300 watts vs the 100 watt panel i plan on. i can easily add a blue tooth digital display later on which requires a phone app. tried to get it set up for future use off grid. this is why even the tv is 12volt ;D also upgraded to a porcelain toilet as the plastic ones make me wonder if there going to collapse! aslo, no carpet anywhere in the entire unit! worst thing the camper industry does imo!
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really like this floor plan but out of my price range with the slide out. they will also up grade to 8k lbs axles. that's a 36" deep slide out on this one! i also like the fact they don't add the ugly fender well covers like all the others. there a pain in the ass to to work around when you have to pull wheels for what ever reason.
https://www.facebook.com/330516037011439/videos/2815666065228043
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Completely agree on the torsion pros and cons. If I had a trailer that would never be off road or continually needing tight/near jack knifing turns I would definitely go torsion again. I still have a 45 footer with triple torsions and they do ride much smoother than springs. TOrsions with triple axles have proven to be quite hard on the center axle when turning tight. Off road or on rough terrain there is no equalization of the load like non slipper suspension offers. Therefore each axle can be easily overloaded on rough terrain or going through intersection dips in the roadway. Bottom line is torsions are best suited for highway transportation and limited offroad/uneven terrain.
Slipper spring suspensions are just noisy. Slippers will require less maintenance and they do avoid the issue of shackle wear. Slippers are in reality heavier duty in that sense.Slippers ,in general allow less articulation between axles compared to shackles though. Just depends what you need. Slippers are not a bad design.I just don't like all the squeaking.Personaly, on a dual axle 7K each setup I'd go with shackle suspension.
where i can only imagine the extreme loads of a triple axle i did not know the center axle take the brunt of it. good to know and i wouldn't go torsion anyway. 100% correct on not equalizing the load.....i failed to meantion that above.
so slipper springs were offered as an option and that's why i asked. i will go with standard leaf springs on 7k axles.
When I built the trailer that burned I planned on using triple torsions and designed everything to fit the torsions. The dealer (A&N Trailer Supply,Tulsa BTW lol). They knew what I was building. Came time to order axles after everything but the interior was done and guess what,Dexter informed me it was a bad idea to run triple torsions. OK then,I'll just run springs. OH HELL NOOOOOOOO!!!!! Frame was to wide to accommodate springs.Springs under frame would sit trailer toohigh since the point of running the torsions was to get a very low deck height to accommodate loading the 2" ground clearance dragster in the first place. Dexter was adamanant that it wasn't known for quite some time that torsions were only long term reliable with tamden setups(or single)and were just then recommending against it. My solution was to run heavier duty torsions and spread the axles so I didn't have to rework all the siding and some framing. I just eliminated the center one. Dexter advised that would work.Towed like a dream and rode smooth as silk.
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have to give dexter credit for admitting it but.... damn it would've been nice to know that sooner!
i did inquire about spread axles for the unit i just ordered. casey was upfront from the get go. he informed me that even though they use a better chassis than most of the indiana companies, spread axles load the frame rail differently. he stated that where cargo trailers as well as car/flat bed etc etc use sturdier chassis's, there's are still based on a camper chassis and not well suited for spread axles.
i am no expert in that field and have not researched much, but i can kind of see his point in a torsional sense.? i did/do know the camper I beam construction is not as rigid as a cargo trailer boxed tube frame rail. i have always considered the benefits of a spread axle to be all good. they help with sway control a bit, better support the load a little better imo.
i never considered the additional stress's ( bending/torsional moment) to the frame member. i always thought it would spread the load out farther but didn't consider the additional stress's from loading/side loading one axle more than the other through curves, over bumps and such. again all comes down to frame design choices/considerations.
https://mechanicalelements.com/choosing-trailer-frame-material/
https://mechanicalelements.com/mounting-trailer-axle-springs/
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That is going to be a nice trailer. I like the solar prep package and the exterior lights. Does the side patio roll out like a slide? Never seen one on the side like that. You guys will enjoy it, and room for family!
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That is going to be a nice trailer. I like the solar prep package and the exterior lights. Does the side patio roll out like a slide? Never seen one on the side like that. You guys will enjoy it, and room for family!
thanks and i sure hope so. the side patio is literally a 7' tall ramp door usually used on the rear of the standard models. just like the rear patios on some trailers they use cables to support it. rated at 3k lbs, there is still a 1500 lbs weight limit on it unless you add ground support like slide box supports then he said it's a full 3k lb rating. i don't for see a 1500 lb load being put on it lol by going with 8' side walls in the rearward portion, this allows for a side ramp. the wall they have to build to support it is 6" deep so i lose 6" of loading width for that 8' wide patio/ramp door on the side. my front end is only 80" wide with straps so all good there with plenty of room in the rear for my wide ass 90" rear. bonus!!!! with the 8' rear ramp gate is that they weld a square tube frame ( like a roll cage) to support the opening. this also is the reason the loading width is 95" wide!! so my rail will pull in with paddles on! ;D ;) the other nice part is that the patio gets you 30" closer to the awning so better coverage if it's raining as i don't like being trapped inside! i also have a 9' screen enclosure that will fit that awning and patio very well, for bugs. i will have to cut it to length and i'll add snaps to attach it to the underside of the patio. later date project. on that wall ( as seen in that cad print) i purchased 2 full range marine speaker box's that flush mount. i will ship them and they will install and wire them in. one in the ceiling over the rear couch. the other will go over the patio window for outside speaker. these box's have 2 tweeters, 2 mid range that drive a pneumatic sub in the center. they handle 200 watts each and i have an amp for them that i will send as well. also added an outdoor outlet on that patio wall so the wife can plug her tablet book in and i can charge my go pro cams or fan or what ever.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0zdy3BCJ/g917-FS402-B-F.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zdy3BCJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/p9WLtJ0c/g917-FS402-B-o-other2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p9WLtJ0c)
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fabr...... you had meantioned some time back, that you didnt care for slipper springs on light and med duty applications. can you elaborate on that?
i ask because i'm getting ready to order a custom trailer with dual 7k axles and debating standard leaf vs slipper. i do not like torsion axles as i have seen there limitations many times.
Could you expand on the torsion axle issue? thanks
for what it's worth..... direct from dexter axle's pdf page.
Trailers equipped with Torflex®axles must be towed in a level attitude to ensure even loading of the axles. Out-of-level towing results in higher loads being imposed on the axle at the low portion of the frame and less load on the axle(s) at the high end. This uneven load distribution may cause excessive stress concentrations on the frame structure. Uneven loading of non-equalized suspensions can also affect the ride characteristics by altering the natural frequency of the structure
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all they say about spread axles
7Trailer Design Considerations•
Spread axle mounting will lend added support to frame structures but will result in more tire wear and impose higher stresses on the axle components and axle mountings. Increased tire wear usually results from the added side scrubbing that occurs when negotiating sharp turns or corners.
• Wide-spread Torflex® axles will be subjected to higher stresses at the bracket/tube interfaces as a result of frame racking. Racking occurs when the vehicle travels over uneven surfaces and the loads imposed at each wheel are substantially different. If the torsional stiffness of the vehicle structure is relatively low, the areas where the cross members are joined to the main frame rails and the axle bracket/tube welds must withstand the twisting that occurs in these critical regions. Excessive flexing may result in fatigue failures. To reduce the potential for problems due to racking, position the axles closer together.
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budlight69 they do offer a sliding glass door as seen in this video. i do not like sliding glass doors so i was out on that option. now there are 3 seasons folding patio doors as an option. they are nice as the top windows lower for half screen walls. windows are tinted as well for some solar deflection. 2 problems with those...... A. the take that patio box intrusion from 6" to 10" deep. B. they are not sealed top and bottom but rather use a brush bristle type affair. i do not like that for the bug intrusion factor and we make 2 or 3 trips a year where there are lots of bugs. it would give the full glass wall look which would be nice but to many con's.
based on how i took our conversation, sounds like they'll weld a frame to support the side patio opening. when sticking with a standard 48" wide by 22" tall sliding window along with a standard 30" wide rv entry door then the box intrusion is only 2.75" as seen in that cad print. i assume he was able to do so as the patio walls are removable also. i just sent an e mail to confirm this to be sure.
https://www.facebook.com/330516037011439/videos/1699683596874959
https://youtu.be/GJXILAeZjXE
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in this video he used the gen 1 3 seasons folding patio door. they used vinyl windows rather than glass. you can see the daylight at the bottom and top of the unit and that didn't change on the gen 2 model with glass.
https://youtu.be/buZmD3S0upE
you can see the new design in this video.
https://youtu.be/CVoCKxreuHA
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budligt69 , i think you as well as many others can appreciate the custom addition to the patio wall in this custom fifthwheel ;D ;D i know you'll spot it ;) ;)
https://www.facebook.com/330516037011439/videos/531371514461472
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this is what i want to do to the lower of the new one. ordered w/o lower skirting .
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnN5ypc4/51028564-10213731671710224-4164871830366060544-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnN5ypc4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfSZGX3K/51341373-10213731670470193-3820025581865533440-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfSZGX3K)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFP7HYww/51407038-10213731670030182-1138990722347696128-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFP7HYww)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9kqGg6G/51417432-10213731669670173-5144565243657060352-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9kqGg6G)
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You'll LOVE that.
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this is what i want to do to the lower of the new one. ordered w/o lower skirting .
(https://i.postimg.cc/MnN5ypc4/51028564-10213731671710224-4164871830366060544-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MnN5ypc4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfSZGX3K/51341373-10213731670470193-3820025581865533440-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfSZGX3K)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFP7HYww/51407038-10213731670030182-1138990722347696128-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFP7HYww)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9kqGg6G/51417432-10213731669670173-5144565243657060352-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9kqGg6G)
Do you buy those somewhere, are they custom made or do you have to make them? A cool addition either way!
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depending on dimensions, there are 4 or 5 places that sell them up to 96" long. chinese knock offs to quality box's. in other words amazon to bauer built ;) i do not know if the outrigger spacing is even or not or what it will be. once i know that then i'll know what i can do. i see no reason why i couldn't just notch the back out for the outrigger and glue that area to the frame to keep it sealed. either that or individual boxs