Author Topic: DS a-arm kit information needed.  (Read 101901 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #375 on: December 22, 2021, 12:38:07 PM »
i know the 5x5 will make a change to the ride. def a good change as well. let us know your thoughts on the change with the 5x5's. so the ecoboost will be a nice upgrade. i assume the 2.3 eb and not the 2.7 or 3.5??  now that i have an hv24 on its way.......... the eb 2.7 is a real option in the future!
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Offline fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #376 on: December 22, 2021, 07:16:45 PM »
ds, go for all the power/tq you can get that the hv can handle. you'll never regret it.


the 5x5's will be a greatimprovement with the ds front. gonna be a whole new ride .
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #377 on: December 24, 2021, 05:54:13 AM »
ds, go for all the power/tq you can get that the hv can handle. you'll never regret it.


the 5x5's will be a greatimprovement with the ds front. gonna be a whole new ride .

sean said they tentatively rate the hv24 at 600 sand. diff rating for diff terrains and driving styles, tire etc etc as we all know. i specifically asked what a conservative input rating would be and he said 500/500. the ecoboost 2.7 would be a good match imo as w/o emissions and a pump gas tune they make 450 tq at the wheels based on a number of dyno video's.  the 3.5 would push that trans to its limit and over imo and i would rather stay on the conservative side. i do agree with you though as i really like st a dune and tq really makes a diff out there.
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Offline fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #378 on: December 24, 2021, 09:03:10 AM »
I agree 100%.  Same reasoning as to why I bought the Fortin. IMO,it is unwise to build any other way. We are not racing so why build just adequate in lieu of durably over built? Endurance trumps all else for our use,IMO.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #379 on: December 26, 2021, 07:05:45 PM »
On my bucket list of builds someday ends with a 3.5 EcoBoost in the back of it. For the differences in HP/Torque and weight I'd definitely choose the 3.5 over the 2.7. Alot more aftermarket support for it as well.
I cant imagine the fun a 2.7 or 3.5 would be after having hands on experience with the 2.0 and 2.3's.

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #380 on: December 26, 2021, 07:15:35 PM »
So here's a question for you gents;
Sounds like the choice of going 5x5 will compliment our new fronts ends well. So being we have to re-do shock mounts and such, what is the best or standard practice for this? Typically I haven't put alot of thought into this and always did "what worked". But I would like to put some rhyme and reasoning into this round.

What is the optimal shock angle to shoot for? Or straight-ish?
Bottom mount ahead of or behind axle center line? Or is this determined by shock angle?
I've seen so many different ways of this being done maybe it doesnt matter but I would assume it does and some general rules apply here. Love to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks


Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #381 on: December 27, 2021, 03:13:39 PM »
So here's a question for you gents;
Sounds like the choice of going 5x5 will compliment our new fronts ends well. So being we have to re-do shock mounts and such, what is the best or standard practice for this? Typically I haven't put alot of thought into this and always did "what worked". But I would like to put some rhyme and reasoning into this round.

What is the optimal shock angle to shoot for? Or straight-ish?
Bottom mount ahead of or behind axle center line? Or is this determined by shock angle?
I've seen so many different ways of this being done maybe it doesnt matter but I would assume it does and some general rules apply here. Love to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks

this is an interesting question and one that has many answers  :m thats not maddening  :m :nw
so it really comes down to the amount of wheel travel you wish to achieve and the available room you have to place the shock. as far as size of shock, choice of shock type etc etc that will be determined by your intent. if you want the best of all worlds then external by pass and coil overs. next step down would be internally bypassed coil overs with remote resi. if you like to jump and your rail is in the 2klb plus category then you'll want 2.5 shocks and an external bypass shock next to it. if you want to simplify that then go with the 3.0 interally bypassed coil over like. as far as  wheel travel goes.......well that will be determined by how high of shock to wheel ratio's you want to run which will require the appropriate coils. so say you want 20" wheel travel out of a 10" stroke shock, 2:1 shock/wheel ratio. in the past most tried to keep the ratios as close to 1.5:1 but with the heavier rails the higher ratios with stronger coils seem to make for better rides.

i do believe when the day come and i install the ecoboost 6cyl that i will be swapping to internally by pass'd 3.0 fox in the rear.  if i have room i may even go to the 3.5 or 4.0

this of course is just my opinion as these choices are driver by driver choices.
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
Because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience

Offline dsrace

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #382 on: December 27, 2021, 03:18:52 PM »
On my bucket list of builds someday ends with a 3.5 EcoBoost in the back of it. For the differences in HP/Torque and weight I'd definitely choose the 3.5 over the 2.7. Alot more aftermarket support for it as well.
I cant imagine the fun a 2.7 or 3.5 would be after having hands on experience with the 2.0 and 2.3's.

the 3.5 will def have more tq and i have seen 600 hp easy with very few mods with that motor! now of course that would be pushing my trans again and the next step up is $14k and that price goes up 25% 1st of the year    i will have to stick with the 2.7 or leave the 3.5 stock.......and i have no self control when it comes to that ;) :m :m

https://weddleindustries.com/products/S4D-TRANS/S4D-TRANS
Don't never argue with an Idiot!
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Offline fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #383 on: December 27, 2021, 05:17:07 PM »
So here's a question for you gents;
Sounds like the choice of going 5x5 will compliment our new fronts ends well. So being we have to re-do shock mounts and such, what is the best or standard practice for this? Typically I haven't put alot of thought into this and always did "what worked". But I would like to put some rhyme and reasoning into this round.

What is the optimal shock angle to shoot for? Or straight-ish?
Bottom mount ahead of or behind axle center line? Or is this determined by shock angle?
I've seen so many different ways of this being done maybe it doesnt matter but I would assume it does and some general rules apply here. Love to hear some thoughts on this.

Thanks

this is an interesting question and one that has many answers  :m thats not maddening  :m :nw
so it really comes down to the amount of wheel travel you wish to achieve and the available room you have to place the shock. as far as size of shock, choice of shock type etc etc that will be determined by your intent. if you want the best of all worlds then external by pass and coil overs. next step down would be internally bypassed coil overs with remote resi. if you like to jump and your rail is in the 2klb plus category then you'll want 2.5 shocks and an external bypass shock next to it. if you want to simplify that then go with the 3.0 interally bypassed coil over like. as far as  wheel travel goes.......well that will be determined by how high of shock to wheel ratio's you want to run which will require the appropriate coils. so say you want 20" wheel travel out of a 10" stroke shock, 2:1 shock/wheel ratio. in the past most tried to keep the ratios as close to 1.5:1 but with the heavier rails the higher ratios with stronger coils seem to make for better rides.

i do believe when the day come and i install the ecoboost 6cyl that i will be swapping to internally by pass'd 3.0 fox in the rear.  if i have room i may even go to the 3.5 or 4.0

this of course is just my opinion as these choices are driver by driver choices.
Pretty good short answer to the shock question but there is a LOT to consider beyond that as we all know.One thing that I think you missed was the need to keep the suspension spring ratio progressive from full droop to full bump. MANY suspensions are almost junk if that is not considered when mounting shocks. All of this has been pretty well hashed out in the past on DTS. Might want to do a search and review all you can find here. FWIW, I believe DTS has some of the best info anywhere in our archives.

As for rear shocks AF I think I would suggest a 3.0 triple bypass with a gutted 2.5 for the coil carrier equipped with dual springs.  For the front a 2.5 triple bypass with a 2.0 or 2.5 coil carrier.  Remember that the springs are not to tune the bump absorbing . Spring and especially dual springs are basically only responsible for ride height at varying loads. Shocks are to control how faast/slow the suspension reacts to the different loads seen by the springs at various travels.
  That was probably clear as mud so ask any questions you have and DS or myself will try our best to clear it up. There are more here that can help very well also -if we can wake them up that is.

 The subject of suspension theory is one very big can of worms.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #384 on: December 28, 2021, 06:39:40 PM »
“well that will be determined by how high of shock to wheel ratio's you want to run which will require the appropriate coils. so say you want 20" wheel travel out of a 10" stroke shock, 2:1 shock/wheel ratio. in the past most tried to keep the ratios as close to 1.5:1 but with the heavier rails the higher ratios with stronger coils seem to make for better rides”

“One thing that I think you missed was the need to keep the suspension spring ratio progressive from full droop to full bump. MANY suspensions are almost junk if that is not considered when mounting shocks. All of this has been pretty well hashed out in the past on DTS. Might want to do a search and review all you can find here. FWIW, I believe DTS has some of the best info anywhere in our archives”

Nice. Thanks for the reply’s gents. That is why this is the first place I thought I would ask. One comment from each of ya I am hoping you can elaborate on more?
Ratio; where is the ideal weight for the ride to be effected between the 1.5:1 and 2:1? This was the main thing I was looking for in my question, how does the shock mounted vertical or say 30 degrees effect ride? And is there a point that is just to far?
Spring ratio? Progressive throughout the entire travel? Can you elaborate on this? No bump to stop the top spring? Or is this the advantage of 3 springs, always progressive?

I will do a search here and do some reading as suggested, should find some good reading Im sure. We have 2 find 2 set ups for our riding. Dune and trail riding back home. Our trail riding has been hard to find the “go to set up”. The trails get pretty chopped up and require a lot of shock action in both comp & rebound. If its to slow it can get harsh. I have chased this with multiple spring and valving changes. Fabr nailed it and I wish I would have learned it sooner, it wasn’t the springs.

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #385 on: December 28, 2021, 06:50:40 PM »


Remember that the springs are not to tune the bump absorbing . Spring and especially dual springs are basically only responsible for ride height at varying loads. Shocks are to control how faast/slow the suspension reacts to the different loads seen by the springs at various travels.
 
[/quote]

This has to be simplest explanation and best descriptive way i have found to date. Now if i could just nail the spring/valving combo  LMAO

Offline fabr

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #386 on: December 28, 2021, 09:06:19 PM »
I'll have to type my thoughts on this tomorrow evening. I'll be on the road tomorrow. This subject is complex and in all reality quite difficult to convey at times.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #387 on: April 30, 2022, 01:47:03 PM »
Thought I would throw up an update as it's been a minute. Actually a busy winter. Sons car back from powder coat and assembly just getting under way. This is the frame we started the conversion on back in November. Definitely a small change 👍👍








Offline DeepBusch69

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #388 on: April 30, 2022, 03:05:25 PM »
Wow, that's coming out nice.  Keep us updated!   

Offline Aprilfools

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Re: DS a-arm kit information needed.
« Reply #389 on: April 30, 2022, 10:05:24 PM »
Thanks 👍

Will definitely update as we get it back on wheels with some before and pics

 

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