DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: dsrace on November 23, 2017, 05:17:52 AM
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https://www.kustom1warehouse.net/Imi_high_torque_starter_for_VW_Volkswagen_p/hitorquestarter.htm
this is what i bought for my rail, it only cranks it over between 225 to 275 rpm according to my data logs. seems slow to me but cannot find anything better for type 1 or 002 style. the 8" clutch may have something to do with it vs porshe style 9" i had in the v6 rail. what rpms are others seeing and does that seem slow to you guys?
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Doesn't matter if it starts the engine. Why,you having starting issues with the E85 ?
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Only takes one successful ignition cycle to fire it off. Speed is irrelevant. Think old timey hand crank, lawn mower, or kick starter.
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Doesn't matter if it starts the engine. Why,you having starting issues with the E85 ?
i have cold start issues and it's a fuel issue that will be addressed but was sitting here thinking back about all the other rails sort of remembering they cranked faster. my will not start when it's 50* or abouts. once started it re fires all day as long as it doens't go cold again. it floods in lets say 10 cranks, and i mean floods as in you can pull a spark plug and see it from 4 feet lol lol, fast saw it first hand. now this trip was the first time its been in the cold to even know such a thing. turned the fuel down a bunch on crank but haven't pulled it out of the trailer since we returned to mess with yet. had surgery mon on my wrist and elbow. carpal tunnel and nerve in my elbow. so sitting here staring at datalogs and looking around. was thinking if it cranked a little faster that could help but i do know will have to work on fueling and idle air circuit a bit more.
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faster cranking will not help. Flooding on cranking,of course,on cold start is obviously a tune adjustment. Lean that baby out according to engine wants/needs associated with air temps and just give it a shot of unleaded to aid cold start as a last resort if needed. Lots of guys running e85 without high compression need this.Just the nature of the stuff. I know a couple guys that added a drain petcock to the air inlet duct ,near the throttle body to make a convenient spot to easily "inject" a squirt of 91. I will be the first to admit,there is a learning curve to tuning E85.
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I will ask though,what are you seeing for cranking compression psi ? If it is lower than about 175 you might entertain the thought that your cam is at least a part of the issue. Regardless of what your static ratio is you still will be able to achieve around the 175 with a cam having the right amount of overlap/lobe center . Any lower and the cold start issue may just be a fact of life.
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i have not ran a comp check to be honest. figured i would get through some sort of break in period. now factory motors are 8-1 comp and i think ( but will have to go look up but really close) 145 psi is middle the spectrum on this engine. i raised mine to 9-1 so should be a little higher
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That's the trouble with turbo motors. Run a comp test and post it up when you can. If you have cam specs ,post those as well if you wish.
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dougs stock engine starts in the cold on e85 so i know its a fueling issue but i will take a comp test. also here are the specs on my cam
1989-1994 2.3L Roller Cam Engines
Lobe Lift
Intake 0.2381"
Exhaust 0.2381"
Rocker arm (cam follower) ratio 1.64:1
Theoretical Valve Lift @ Zero Lash
Intake 0.390"
Exhaust 0.390"
Valve stem 0.3419" dia
Valve stem 0.2750" dia
Stock Roller Camshaft Pattern
Lobe Center Separation: 112 deg
Intake @ 0.050:
- Open: 14.5 deg BTDC
- Centerline: 108 deg
- Closed: 21.5 ABDC
- Duration: 187 deg
Intake @ 0.00 lift:
- Duration: 248 deg
- Lift: 0.390"
Exhaust @ 0.050:
- Open: 30.5 deg BBDC
- Centerline: 116 deg
- Closed: 21.5 ATDC
- Duration: 189 deg
Exhaust @ 0.00 lift:
- Duration: 250 deg
- Lift: 0.390"
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not going to try anything for now as i have only one hand and it's in the camper still. so i can say that enemy reduced inj pulse from 10 ms to 2 on cold crank but i wonder if we need to add air via air valve control. it did help but didn't solve no cold start but don't smell raw fuel near as much with the first few cranks.
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started dougs rail up this am and it started right up on e85 but it was 74* today lol on another note i shortened his coaxial cable 10' and still kills his ignition. i'll have to do a little more looking. mine is a 60 watt and works great with no ign issues.
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started dougs rail up this am and it started right up on e85 but it was 74* today lol on another note i shortened his coaxial cable 10' and still kills his ignition. i'll have to do a little more looking. mine is a 60 watt and works great with no ign issues.
Everything starts well at near perfect temps..................... 5: :m When you get to where you can,do a compression test ,then ,if you have the equipment,a leak down test. I'll look into what I see in the cam specs that might be a factor in this beyond a tune issue at that point. The cold start (below 50 or so)tune is probably the most problem at this point .
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with my rail the cold start below 50* is the only issue aside from gearing lol actually aside from gearing i was very happy iwth the performance of my rail on the last trip! the tune does need more work but after a cam , turbo and larger volume fuel pump swap what doesn't ;) was talking to enemy about his thought as i just got the rail out of the th'er last night. my ecu does a prime pulse on inj's upon key on so we are going to shut that off and see what it does. it would not start yest am after cranking it approx 10 times and 2 trys so prob 20 cranks combined. i pulled a vac port and sprayed one shot ( just one shot) of carb cleaner directly into the upper intake. cranked 4 times and fired right off like a flooded engine finally catching up and starting. i do need to do a comp test as i would like to know. i believe the rings should be seated by now on this new engine. pretty damn amazing how much bottom end i now have with the 94 ford ranger roller cam i installed!
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with my rail the cold start below 50* is the only issue aside from gearing lol actually aside from gearing i was very happy iwth the performance of my rail on the last trip! the tune does need more work but after a cam , turbo and larger volume fuel pump swap what doesn't ;) was talking to enemy about his thought as i just got the rail out of the th'er last night. my ecu does a prime pulse on inj's upon key on so we are going to shut that off and see what it does. it would not start yest am after cranking it approx 10 times and 2 trys so prob 20 cranks combined. i pulled a vac port and sprayed one shot ( just one shot) of carb cleaner directly into the upper intake. cranked 4 times and fired right off like a flooded engine finally catching up and starting. i do need to do a comp test as i would like to know. i believe the rings should be seated by now on this new engine. pretty damn amazing how much bottom end i now have with the 94 ford ranger roller cam i installed!
Not trying to be a dick but I get SOOOOOO tired of this BS of how long it takes for quality rings to seat. If the cylinders are round to within .0005"/taper to within .0005" and bore taper to within.0005" the damn things seat in the first trip down the bore. This is absolute fact and all ring people will verify this fact. Same goes for rod/main bearings. If the engine was finish sized by a by a modern precision shop there is absolutely no break in period for rings or bearings. End of story.Now, when it comes to every other moving/rubbing part in the engine well,let's just say many are ill manufactured and others do realistically need wear mating in of mating components. Couple easy run through the gears/dyno pulls is all that's needed though.
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On a side note,I've done so many leak down tests in the last 35 years I can say I have a handle on cylinder sealing. 20 years maching race blocks for a lot of guys that demanded low,low leakdown rates on new engines of no more than 5% with conventional ring packages. Less yet for no gap top rings. To achieve this the rings need perfect sealing,the valves must pass a vacumn test of zero leakage and of course the head gasket must be perfect. Sooooo,if everything is so perfect,why is there any leakage? It's that little,bitty +/-.030 ring gap. That doesn't do anything but get bigger. FAST. Only .0005 wear in the bore or ring face wear of .00025 will open up end gap approx.0015 depending on bore size. Soooooo,even if the rings were leaking anything and actually needed seating in time,the benefits would be negated by the opening up end gap.
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On a side note,I've done so many leak down tests in the last 35 years I can say I have a handle on cylinder sealing. 20 years maching race blocks for a lot of guys that demanded low,low leakdown rates on new engines of no more than 5% with conventional ring packages. Less yet for no gap top rings. To achieve this the rings need perfect sealing,the valves must pass a vacumn test of zero leakage and of course the head gasket must be perfect. Sooooo,if everything is so perfect,why is there any leakage? It's that little,bitty +/-.030 ring gap. That doesn't do anything but get bigger. FAST. Only .0005 wear in the bore or ring face wear of .00025 will open up end gap approx.0015 depending on bore size. Soooooo,even if the rings were leaking anything and actually needed seating in time,the benefits would be negated by the opening up end gap.
good point
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well finally got my no start cold start dialed in. had to reduce even more cold cranking fuel and open the iac up down at 40* f area for a touch more air but fires sluggishly then smooths right out at 50* so far. it was flat flooding out before.
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Sluggish or still fat after fire could still use a touch more crank fuel pulled out. If it remains rich for a few seconds or more after firing, start pulling fuel from the ASE table. ASE taper (time the ASE is active) can be reduced or increased to find the sweet spot before "warm up enrichment" (WUE) takes over to complete the remainder of the warmup cycle. Cool you are getting it dialed in!
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well went out and made a few more tiny adjustments and getting there. it does start ok. this was the coldest i have tried. on another note......i have had the wg plumbed from comp to electronic boost controller (ebc) then back to wg. we turned on boost control at the dunes and turned it up but wasn't doing anything so didn't mess with it again. i saw on turbosmarts site that they suggest ( sine i have a 2 port wg) that one T's into the vac line from the comp and send that T'd line to the lower wg port . from that T point run the other side to ebc and back from ebc to top port. well i did this but shut ebc off so i could go make a quick run and freeze my but off! apparently it must be naturally open as it didn't send any pressure back to the wg! luckily the rising rate fuel reg plus tune saved my butt so when it it hit 29 psi boost the afr's were at 10.1!! didn't think that would happen but wow does it break traction fast in the dirt lol
this is the way it is now https://www.rx7club.com/attachments/single-turbo-rx-7s-23/464522d1336692147-what-symtoms-wastegate-spring-its-limits-boostcontroller-ebcs2.jpg
this is how it was at the dunes and i'm using a pierburg ebc http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3gF6_pOJsy4/UkUw33DP89I/AAAAAAAAGb8/a5Etbk5LIQg/s1600/Fullscreen+capture+27092013+30604+PM.jpg
after thinking about it and looking at some info the way i have it now really only works if the ebc is on otherwise it just send pressure back to wg to hold it shut lol
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i kind of like this idea!!!!! better dash and fully configurable using a tablet and looks the blue tooth option on my ms3 will work.
https://youtu.be/r4OkHVT21U4
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regarding that tablet into dash video.... the guy that designed and programmed the digital gauge i use ( perfect tuning) http://perfecttuning.net/en/ ........and if i sent a tablet if he would be willing to hard wire and program it like my gauge to install TS shawdow dash so i can lay it out for my functions. i asked because i didn't know if the rugged radio would interfere with the blue tooth signal. this is his response for anyone thinking of this.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for you feedback.
Yes you can use a tablet. You can use bluetooth because bluetooth use frequency band 2.4ghz and your radio is only in the 134-174 mhz band.
I have bluetooth modules that you can connect to ms2 or ms3 ecu with serial port.
regarding quick boot time, you can power the tablet with a usb power supply and use something like tasker to turn on/off the tablet when charging is detected (key on). This way you leave the tablet always on but you disable everything that draw power so it can stay on but with screen closed for a long time.
For the android applications, there is Shadow dash, MSDroid and Real dash.
Let me know if you have any other questions!
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Bill (Garden city ks ) guy, with the 3.8 supercharged car runs a tablet on his sand car. the only complaints I have heard from him, is sometime its hard to see the screen. sun glare on the screen. his use blue tooth from the obd port
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he needs to make an eyebrow for it. does he have a full roof?
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http://tunerstudiodashboards.com/megasquirt-dashboards.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqnVJwmXLkA
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he needs to make an eyebrow for it. does he have a full roof?
yes, he has a full roof with sides.
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so big dave....what upgrades are you considering making to your rail after the sale of that collectors vw van?
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so big dave....what upgrades are you considering making to your rail after the sale of that collectors vw van?
That is a good Question. I'm not sure. At this point, I'm looking at option. letting the bank build right now. would love to go to the 2.5 Subaru. but if I do that, I will be mounting it to my 091 box. well you know that is just lighting a fuse. how long before I blow the trans. SSSoooo, ok, buy the 4d!!! well hell! Now I'm out there at 18000.00 in motor and trans. Been watching sand car sales. Might as well just buy a new car. Do some trading up. sale the old car. recoup some of the cost. but to be honest. no real plan at this time.
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i have been looking around at md4e used gear box's....they are bringing more money then i thought they should but used looking at $4k to $4500 and new you can find them all over at $5500 so hard to justify used if the gearing is wrong! i feel your pain on price tag of changing motor rofl just did that and i try real hard not to think of what this cost me but after selling my old engine and the system, cut the swap price in half and in the end i like the additional power. the trans gearing is still an issue but will get that taken care of eventually. the new md4e, btw, only comes with a 5.14 r&p so they can run larger 1st thru 4th gears for strength, or so i have been told, also i was informed it uses a dana 44 diff and 2" narrower (flange to flange) than the bus or megasand trans. that spacing diff is what has me on hold for now as i have an a arm rear end.
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also last i looked, the weddle hv series started at $6500. i was told the hv1 was no stronger than the md4e other than a much stonger rev gear based off the 094 bus trans but all in weddle race gears.
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i have been looking around at md4e used gear box's....they are bringing more money then i thought they should but used looking at $4k to $4500 and new you can find them all over at $5500 so hard to justify used if the gearing is wrong! i feel your pain on price tag of changing motor rofl just did that and i try real hard not to think of what this cost me but after selling my old engine and the system, cut the swap price in half and in the end i like the additional power. the trans gearing is still an issue but will get that taken care of eventually. the new md4e, btw, only comes with a 5.14 r&p so they can run larger 1st thru 4th gears for strength, or so i have been told, also i was informed it uses a dana 44 diff and 2" narrower (flange to flange) than the bus or megasand trans. that spacing diff is what has me on hold for now as i have an a arm rear end.
I'm not convinced the 1" each side narrower is a big deal. Have you calculated how much plunge it would induce? I still think it is very probable that axle spline slip will accommodate the plunge. Of course that is just a guess unless I had your mounting points. Even if it did add too much plunge for the axle splines you could always run slip joint axles like I have but proved out I did not need............
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a guess would be that it would work. i currently have aluminum greasers that are spacers. i believe there 7/16" and the non plunge cv's are narrower than plunging btw, not by much though. i could get doug to make a slightly wider greaser/spacer and min it i suppose. changing the rear trans mount is no big deal but don't know the location of the cv flange in relation to adapter plate.
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That's the trouble with turbo motors. Run a comp test and post it up when you can. If you have cam specs ,post those as well if you wish.
found these stock cam specs for comparison. it's interesting none the less, and you understand this far better than i do.
1987 Turbo Coupe cam spec.s: slider
Cam Lift (Intake):.238"
Cam Lift (Exhaust):.238"
Valve Lift (Intake):.412"
Valve Lift (Exhaust):.412"
Degrees Overlap:28 Deg
Advertised Duration (Intake):248 Deg
Advertised Duration (Exhaust):250 Deg
Duration at .050" Lobe Lift (Intake):187 Deg
Duration at .050" Lobe Lift (Exhaust):189 Deg
Cam Timing at .050" Lobe Lift (Intake Open):23 Deg After Top Center
Cam Timing at .050" Lobe Lift (Exhaust Open):39 Deg Before Bottom Center
Cam Timing at .050" Lobe Lift (Intake Close):30 Deg After Bottom Center
Cam Timing at .050" Lobe Lift (Exhaust Close):30 Deg Before Top Center
Valve Lash (Intake):Hydraulic
Valve Lash (Exhaust):Hydraulic
Lobe Centerline (Intake):108 Deg
Lobe Centerline (Exhaust):116 Deg
1989-1994 2.3L Roller Cam Engines
Lobe Lift
Intake 0.2381"
Exhaust 0.2381"
Rocker arm (cam follower) ratio 1.64:1
Theoretical Valve Lift @ Zero Lash
Intake 0.390"
Exhaust 0.390"
Valve stem 0.3419" dia
Valve stem 0.2750" dia
Stock Roller Camshaft Pattern
Lobe Center Separation: 112 deg
Intake @ 0.050:
- Open: 14.5 deg BTDC
- Centerline: 108 deg
- Closed: 21.5 ABDC
- Duration: 187 deg
Intake @ 0.00 lift:
- Duration: 248 deg
- Lift: 0.390"
Exhaust @ 0.050:
- Open: 30.5 deg BBDC
- Centerline: 116 deg
- Closed: 21.5 ATDC
- Duration: 189 deg
Exhaust @ 0.00 lift:
- Duration: 250 deg
- Lift: 0.390"
I plugged the .050" info from the roller Cam specs above into this Camshaft Calculator http://www.wallaceracing.com/camcalc.php and this the output:
The Ranger Roller Cam has an Overlap of 36.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 216.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 232.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 93.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 94.50 degrees BTDC.
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http://turboflush_2.tripod.com/cams.htm