DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: Baloo on April 27, 2012, 09:03:04 AM
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so you knowlegable chaps tell me about these buggys from china, the joyners kinroads etc, everyone here dismisses them as cheap copies and prone to breaking as soon as you sit in them, is the same view held over there ? and what exactly fails on them is it the frame design or welding on the frame, the drive train, exploding engine or gearboxes that strip gears or is the non availability of spare parts ?
whats wrong with them ?
does anyone on here have one ?
Andy
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so you knowlegable chaps tell me about these buggys from china, the joyners kinroads etc, everyone here dismisses them as cheap copies and prone to breaking as soon as you sit in them, is the same view held over there ? and what exactly fails on them is it the frame design or welding on the frame, the drive train, exploding engine or gearboxes that strip gears or is the non availability of spare parts ?
whats wrong with them ?
does anyone on here have one ?
Andy
Same here Joyner's are junk. Haven't heard about the Kinroads. Some one else will chime in on that one. X-18 use to be junk but some one took it over and I think that it is a good car now. Supposed to be all 4130 and nice welds now and built to race. I have look at them at the SSSS and was impressed.
I know that the welds on the Joyner's are trash as is the metal in the tubing.
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Rucky cat says: If you buy one, it wont take too rong before you figure out it sum ting wong. De not fuh kin su pah. Run, don't wok away as fast as you can.
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so not much actual hands on expirence of a chinese buggy then, well nor me till l bought one :o :o :o
l know l know what was l thinking l must have been on ebay at a vunrable time :laugh:
l sold my honda pilot a few months ago and have managed to keep the money aside till now, l knew if l dident buy a new toy the money would just get used up on the everyday things and another toy would be lost forever :(
before l get into chineses built stuff heres a few pics, it is way faster than my old pilot but then it would be with a 1000cc engine, it will easily out corner the pilot but then it has a proper diff where as the pilot dident and always pushed on, it will seat 2 big fat gits with ease and the pilot only took one :o and its fully road regestered l can drive it where ever l want, is that green stickered over there ?
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thats how it came, l removed all the stickers and lost the hideous front winch mounting frame,
made anew light weight front bumper and set about covering it in orange vynl :o
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpxz1zyUJdY&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpxz1zyUJdY&feature=plcp)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4OP1R42di0&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4OP1R42di0&feature=plcp)
we can get round to build quality in a bit ;)
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tell more..................
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tell more..................
well fastcorvairs sums up just about everyones view about chinese buggies, joyner=junk, everyone will say cheap copy, but a cheap copy of what ? its dosent look much like a sxs ?,
anyway lets go back in time a few years, its not that long ago that all japanese stuff was viewed in the same way , cheap copy was the way all there stuff was decribed in particular motor bikes :o once upon a time the motor bike races at the isle of man tt races would be dominated by british, italian etc bike not a sign of a jap bike in fact they were laughed at and when they turned one year mooching round the pits taking photos of the current machinery " dont worry about them they couldent make a bike to save their lives" was often heard around the paddock ( have seen this on documentries on tv) 2 years later they were back and wiped the floor with their new machines :o
the japanese0 then refined their designs and marched onward with super bikes,
if you did a poll over on MBN on engine choice how many non japanese bike engines would be in the mix ? and yet they were universally considered cheap inferior copies, how did we go from cheap nasty copies with no hope of being any good to the engine of choice thats well respected ???????
they did the same with cameras and lots of other items. copy and then improve ??????
heres some reading on the history of honda in motor bike racing
http://vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history.html (http://vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history.html) several pages long
could it not be that china is the new japan laughed at now but in the future ??????
things have definatley moved on the first joyners had small domestic made engines that went pop and you couldent get spares, reverse was selected with a plastic arm/lever that soon broke ( but at least they had a reverse ) and they were made from small diameter thin wall tube with tabs for suspension arms etc in single shear etc, well not anymore look up joyner now and the 2 engines are 1100cc and 1600cc and guess who's engine they use ? good old henry ford :o the ford CVH engine went out of production with ford a little while back but its now being made in china, dont know if they bought the manafacturing rights or just knicked them lol but ford spent plenty of time developing and testing that engine before producing millions and millions of them, gearbox ? well thats a VW item as found in golf/rabbit and passat good reputation ?? anyway the up shot is if your joyner engine box goes kaput there will be plenty more down the breakers yards available cheap ?, l will get you some pics of my frame it appears to be 32mm tube with a 3mm wall and in important areas it steps up to 5mm (3/16), all the suspension tabs are 3mm folded sections
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so things have move on in china, a good proportion of honda motorbikes are made in china not just parts but the whole bike then shipped to japan where they put a honda sticker on and we all buy them thinking nice stuff this japanese made kit :o :o
l am not trying to make out chinese stuff is of great quality more l was thinking about how market forces work and history repeats itself as countries develop and become market leaders and then fade away again as new countries emerge
so in ten years time you will all be riding round on RZR look alikes that are twice as good and half the price :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Baloo,you just said what I've been saying for a very long time. Problem is that it always starts out as junk knockoffs,progresses to outright counterfeiting after others have spent the time and money doing R&D,then actually making a quality,reasonably cheap,product and finally putting the originators out of business. There's just something wrong with that pic to me.
On the other hand ,if anyone is so blind to not see that all it takes is an ISO9001 certification and any factory in the world can produce a very high quality product. That includes Chinese factories. So ,what I'm saying is that the cost of labor prevents a fair playing field. It doesn't prevent quality products. Ala,Japan,Taiwan,etc..
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I have NO idea but many of the engines in China and many other outright counterfeit/copies of everything under the sun come from Chery.
http://cheryengine.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008830697655/Homepage.htm (http://cheryengine.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008830697655/Homepage.htm)
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drowning
Chery Company Profile
Business Type
Manufacturer
Capital
US$500,000,000 to 999,999,999
Total Annual Sales
US$1,000,000 to 1,999,999
No. of Total Staff
3,000 to 3,499
drowning
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Looks funny with the steering wheel on the other side.......I'm not sure why but it just never occurred to me that there would be something other than an American version of a Chinese cart....
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that about sums it up Master, the copies start of crap, gradually get better, and eventually end up better than the original, you are right it dosent sound right but l dont know what anyone can do about it ??
we also dont know if cherry is copying other engines or buying the rights to manafacture along with the tooling from companies who think their life span has finished ? big difference there ?? what did Ford do with all the old tooling from the line that made the CVH engines ? did they smash it up or sell to the highest bidder ? hind sight would suggest you should smash it up the balance sheet might say sell it all ??
there was a problem with the textile/knitting industry over here, as times became hard companies ran out of work and had machines sitting idle, they could sell them for 5k or smash them up and weigh them in 1k, most sold them for what ever they could get and then hundreds of new bussiness started in peoples garages knitting like crazy with no overheads, that put the final nail in the coffin of the big boys , should have smashed the knitting machines up, they might still be here selling stuff
dont know how l got onto knitting ???
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Looks funny with the steering wheel on the other side.......I'm not sure why but it just never occurred to me that there would be something other than an American version of a Chinese cart....
yes we have the wheel on the RIGHT side along with Aus ,japan and a few others, l think joyners were left hand drive only originally which means they must have been aimed at you guys ;D
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Small example of what you were saying.-----I think.
http://www.autospecschina.com/our_work3.html (http://www.autospecschina.com/our_work3.html)
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yes we have the wheel on the RIGHT side along with Aus ,japan and a few others, l think joyners were left hand drive only originally which means they must have been aimed at you guys ;D
YUP! LOL!!!!! ;D ;D
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yes we have the wheel on the RIGHT side along with Aus ,japan and a few others, l think joyners were left hand drive only originally which means they must have been aimed at you guys ;D
A FEW agree the right side is the right side. Damn ,that sounds stupid. rofl rofl rofl rofl
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so how did you guys end up having the steering wheel on the wrong side anyway ?
l think the right side was something to do with jousting on horse back and how the majority of right handed people held the lance so as your opponent ( on coming traffic ) would natrually be on your right, well so the elders say anyway,
what s your excuse for being caggy handed ? ;)
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Our water swirls the right way down the toilet ..........................................??? LOL!!!!!! Where was the automobile first created ? I feel soooooo stupid asking that.
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l would guess france but would have to look it up
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well france if you are talking steam power,
mercedes benz if you mean proper power lol
http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html (http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html)
and l see we had an electric car back in 1832 :o taking a while to catch on isent it
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I built a rail with a 22" of travel and a Mustang Engine. It was awesome, but There was pretty much no where for me to ride in the State of NM. SO I sold it. With the proceeds from that I bought a Carson toy hauler and Joyner 1100. We had a blast with it. It is a great little car. Once I took one of my buddys out for a ride and hit a dirt wall with the right front tire at 40 mph. Spin us out and gave us both some whiplash. The car was fine. I didn't have to do anything to it.
The tires where complete crap I got those replaced. I changed the the shocks to air shocks with a little longer travel. Made a huge difference in ride. Some how I broke a CV (in board short axle) after that.
After two years hard riding and finally getting to go to Glamis, Little Sahara OK, Mescalero, Hackberry, Cibola, Captian, Coral Pink, and Kanab. The CV and tires where the only things I had to work on and the CV was my fault. The other thing about it is it would run all day on one tank of gas. If I didn't just enjoy building things I would have got one of their large rails.
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interesting air shocks made a huge difference then ?, l was thinking of getting some air shocks to try, my buddy will be over there on your side of the pond again soon l will get him to bring me some back in his suitcase again, l have to make some stickers for him to stick on them that say "flight safe" as your customs were non to happy with trying to take pressurerised cylinders on a plane last time lol
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Which side it the steering wheel on in a boat in your bit of the world? I've never understood that either. Here cars are "left" drive and boats are "right"........
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Which side it the steering wheel on in a boat in your bit of the world? I've never understood that either. Here cars are "left" drive and boats are "right"........
boats are all right hand drive here too like all the motor bikes :o
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well france if you are talking steam power,
mercedes benz if you mean proper power lol
http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html (http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html)
and l see we had an electric car back in 1832 :o taking a while to catch on isent it
rofl Bad idea then,bad idea now. ;D ;D
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l would guess france but would have to look it up
One with a proper steering wheel that is....................................... :)
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interesting air shocks made a huge difference then ?, l was thinking of getting some air shocks to try, my buddy will be over there on your side of the pond again soon l will get him to bring me some back in his suitcase again, l have to make some stickers for him to stick on them that say "flight safe" as your customs were non to happy with trying to take pressurerised cylinders on a plane last time lol
Just bleed off the pressure,remove Schrader valve.
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Which side it the steering wheel on in a boat in your bit of the world? I've never understood that either. Here cars are "left" drive and boats are "right"........
Boats are just bassackwards anyway. LMAO
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some more pics of my funny little chinese buggy
l dident like that fuel tank hanging right out the back so it had to go, if l have to have the wieght of 5 gallons of fuel on board best its between the wheels rather than hanging out the back like a pendulum
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off with the hideous lump
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and l made myself a new slim line tank that will slot in behind the seats, its 22"x22"x3" dont know what that will hold fuel wise but its the biggest tank that will fit in so its going to have to do
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just about slots in and fills the space behind the seats
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l thought about the position and weather it was more or less dangerous than having it hanging out the back, not sure l like the idea of the fuel being closer to me but came to the conclusion that all motor bikers wrap their nuts around a fuel tank so they must consider it safe :o
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chestnuts roasting on a open fire............... jack frost nipping at your toes....................................
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chestnuts roasting on a open fire............... jack frost nipping at your toes....................................
funny chestnuts roasting came into my mind too :o spooky same thought patten
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Better location than being used as a bumper.
So it made a week before you took the cutoff saw to it. Is that a record? rofl
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Better location than being used as a bumper.
So it made a week before you took the cutoff saw to it. Is that a record? rofl
yes it probally is, but its bolt on/off so its reversable, should l need to, you just have to alter things dont ya :laugh: will be out testing next week, video on the way
Andy
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l made the tank 3" wide as that was how wide the sender unit is so that just about fits, a couple of airline fittings welded on for the fuel out and return to tank, couple of coats of paint and its ready to install
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I'm betting the buggy is a fun ride.
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I'm betting the buggy is a fun ride.
its better than you would think a chinese buggy is going to be :o
l will be out next week with my pal who bought my old pilot of me, we can pit one against the other and see the relative performance, even at 30 years of age a pilot is still a good bench mark ?
l bought the buggy to examine really as l want to build a 2 seater this year, l reasoned that these chinese buggys may have started of poor but after churning them out for years they must have learnt something and improved the design, once l get sorted l can post up pics of the layout and dimensions of this one and we can disscuss and redsign the buggy frame and suspension, maybe even post up all the drawings of the "modifyed" so as anyone who wants to build one will have access to dimensioned plans ????????
l want to push the rear frame rails further apart to open up the engine and box choice a bit more, do you have the audi 20v turbo engine over there they are plenty powerfull and cheap over here
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If my memory serves me................. the pilots and Odysseys before them were Japanese made. Bottom line is that the Chinese build crap when requested to without any reservations. They CAN build better and WILL in the future. I believe the rest of the world should take notice of that fact and pull it's head out,try to figure out how to compete ,and quit whining about Chinese stuff.
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dont you just love weekends when you get to work on your buggy
tank is painted and fixed in, seats are back in and l have made the new rear bumper
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bit more of a roundy arse on her this time :laugh:
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a bit nicer looking.
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l finally got fed up of waiting for it to dry up and took the buggy out for a quick test,
ended up testing the durability of the gopro more than the buggy :laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzzQHewNiY&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grzzQHewNiY&feature=plcp)
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Baloo!!!!!!!!!!!
What you doing not putting on your five points. You know better then that. Come on man we can't have you getting hurt or injured here. Shape up man. GoPro is a tuff little bitch huh.
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so,what are your impressions of the buggy and just where in Hades did you have the go pro mounted in the first part of the vid???????????
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so,what are your impressions of the buggy and just where in Hades did you have the go pro mounted in the first part of the vid???????????
l was using one of those new anti -gravity mounts for the camera, its linked by wireless to the buggy and is supposed to follow 3' out and 3' behind the buggy but l think there was something wrong with the communications as it kept wondering off into the bushes, :laugh:
impressions of the buggy ?, l love it it handles well, very predictable, lift off over steer would describe it l think, you can come steaming into a corner lift off the power sharply for half a second turn the wheel the way you want it to go stamp back on the gas and the back just powers round and helps you around the corner, steering could do with being a bit quicker but then its just a car steering rack at present so that needs upgrading and of course it needs more horsepower, but dont they all lol, its got a nissan micra K10 engine fitted at present, 1000cc and a whopping 52 hp l think, but thats 20 odd hp more than my pilot ever had but still nowhere near enough, the nissan micra K11 engine is a 1300cc 16v engine and is the next step, around 80 bhp and more revy, but the big advantage l am hopeing for should come from the CVT gearbox its fitted with, l bought a couple of micra's up cheap one manual and one cvt so if the cvt fails l have a plan B with the manual box, man there is a lot of wiring on a modern fuel injected car, the ecu and tcu want to know everything that is going on in the car from all the usual inputs from the engine sensors to inputs from the aircon, light switch, brake light switch, it also needs to know when you put your foot on the gas pedal at 5% to work the powder clutch and 40% throttle to change the friction/drive rate to improve acceleration, lot a lot of wires but l printed the ecu pin out on an 8'x4' panel and pinned it on the garage wall, nearly there lol, l made a test bench up for the engine and box so as l could run it up and get it to function properly with out having it installed in a buggy that way l can tinker with it while still using the buggy, new engine and box is 32" wide which gives me some problems if l want to use double A arm so l might have to go trailing arm, maybe not as precise as double A arm but trailing arm might be easier to package and make stronger ?? wil get you some pics of the stock suspension
here's the engine test bed
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cheap nissan micra's are starting to gather lol
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and l gave the buggy a run round my track yesterday but its still soaking wet, 6" of water in some of the ruts and the grass was wet and slippy like driving on ice so l was a bit carefull with the throttle after l ripped the front left mudgaurd off on a tree eyes
picture seems poor on YT yet on my computer its amazing, must be YT dumbing it down ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEjlM4YEMg&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEjlM4YEMg&feature=plcp)
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ok l lied about he anti-gravity camera mount, radio shack were out of stock so l just used a length of 1" box section steel instead, but its to flexy so l will try a bit of 2" next time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgSoZkDGskY&feature=plcp
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The rear axles ,is there a slip joint in them?
Let me know when RS gets the anti gravity mounts back in stock. I need one or 2.
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Baloo your having way to much fun with that anti gravity mount. You may have to work on finding a wider trail so it don't get so tangled up in the bush. Glad to see your five points on this time. I liken you getting into that buggy to me trying to stuff my self into a sardine can. rofl
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The rear axles ,is there a slip joint in them?
Let me know when RS gets the anti gravity mounts back in stock. I need one or 2.
hi
no slip joint in the drive shafts, just normal cv's each end, the is a diameter change as they are cut and shut with a sleeve over them, inner end is nissan micra and the outer end is kinroad buggy, not what l consider a good idea so l might make some new hubs so l can run standard nissan drive shafts
l will drop a wheel off tomorrow and get some pics of the suspension set up
Andy
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Baloo your having way to much fun with that anti gravity mount. You may have to work on finding a wider trail so it don't get so tangled up in the bush. Glad to see your five points on this time. I liken you getting into that buggy to me trying to stuff my self into a sardine can. rofl
wider trail lol this is the uk every thing is tiny here, not the most elegant with my moves am l ?
buggy is a bit tight but making it bigger moves it away from a mini buggy, might make the next one a few inches wider and few inches longer soon be a full blown sand rail lol
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my plan is to build a copy of this chinese copy :o but with a slightly wider rear so l can get the 1300 engine in
the 1000cc engine and box are about 28" wide while the 1300 is 32" or so wide, there is about 1" clearence at each between engine/box and frame, l need a little more so was pondering moving the suspension pick up points like below
as is
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moving the top wishbone mounting rail outward 2" each end but angling the pickup brackets back in so as the arms pivot from the same point should buy me enough space to drop the bigger engine in ??
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if l can find a way to get the 1300 engine it it opens up the door to future upgrades as there is a 1500 1600 1800 and 2000cc gti engine with around 175 bhp from nissan available cheaply
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hi
no slip joint in the drive shafts, just normal cv's each end, the is a diameter change as they are cut and shut with a sleeve over them, inner end is nissan micra and the outer end is kinroad buggy, not what l consider a good idea so l might make some new hubs so l can run standard nissan drive shafts
l will drop a wheel off tomorrow and get some pics of the suspension set up
Andy
WHat kind of "normal" cv's are we talking about?
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normal regular standard type that come on a factory nissan, l have one in bits in the workshop to see what makes it tick
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I don't know what that is.
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l will take some pics for you
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Standard plunging cv's I'd guess. The axle is twice as long as a-arms and thus huge plunge numbers. Prob why travel is low cause at plunge limit.
You come up with some of the coolest stuff. I spent all day on computer and only bought a rad fan and seatbelt.
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I was thinking possibly tripod style cv.
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its 4.30 in the afternoon and its hissing down with rain here, has been all day well the last week really
so l am having an early finish today so l can tinker with my buggy in the workshop
here's some pics and measurements
tripod sounds like it would describe what l am looking at with the cv's ??
this is an old nissan driveshaft l pulled apart so as l could use the cup in my gearbox to stop the auto trans fluid making a break for freedom across my workshop floor
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taking another driveshaft l clamped the the inboard cv end to the bench and pushed the shaft fully home, put a mark on the bench and then pulled the shaft out and put another mark on the bench, distance between marks is 55mm or 2.25 inches for the oldies :laugh: so is that what we are calling plunge then ?
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here's the rear suspension with the wheel off, top A arm looked a bit odd to me at first but have become used to it now
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l guess its shaped that way to leave clear passage for the shock/spring to run straight down to the lower arm
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when looking at the suspension arms its clear that the top arm is a lot shorter than the bottom, l thought about this for a while an came to the conclusion that one reason to do this might be to tip the top of the hub in as it cycles up and try to reduce the change in the length of the driveshaft ???
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nice little hub with teeny weeny rotors and calipers looked to small to be much use to me but l can lock all 4 wheels on tarmac with out any trouble so l guess they are man enough
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the hub is a cast iron unit that looks sturdy enough to me, the one on the left below
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but by an amazing coincidence you can take an ally hub of an artic cat and bolt it straight on if you want to lessen your unsprung weight
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must just be a coincidence right :o
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Yes,that's a tripod cv. They have a lot more plunge and a lot less misalignment possible than the type we generally use to get long travel in the rear suspension. IIRC the tripods are good only to about 17* and 930 style are capable of up to 28*(25* safely).The 930 style only plunge about 1/4". BTW,did you possibly leave ANY vegetation in the field? ;D ;D
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HTH do you find all the "alternative" parts you find?I mean,I could look around foe days and not find an AC part would be a direct replacement AND lighter to boot!
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so to measure the amount of driveshaft length change through the suspension travel ( plunge ? ) l removed the spring and shock to make it easier, first thing that struck me is the the lower wishbone dropped another 3" and the axle still turned freely so no binding of the cv's there then
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leaving the suspension at full droop l measured from the gearbox casing to the rotor,
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770mm is the figure l got, next jack the suspension up till it full up and measure again
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780mm this time which would suggest the drive shaft is lenghtening by 10mm or 3/8ths" over the suspension cycle ? does that make sense ??
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with the shock disconnected and the suspension hanging freely it measures 11" or there abouts to the centre of the hub,
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sticking the jack under the hub and lifting to the top of the travel gives you 22" to the centre of the hub
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which would suggest that the plunge is 3/8th over 11" is that right and is that good or bad ??
the driveshaft still turns freely when the suspension is fully up which agains would suggest the cv's havent reached their limit yet ??
whats stopping the up travel ? :o
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the driveshafts smacks into the upper wishbone mounting eyes, so there is probally more to come out of this suspension with a little re-design
clearly with the spring/shocker re connected l am not going to see 11" of travel as l loose 3 " at the bottom and maybe 3 at the top so l might have 6" of working travel but the potenial for more is there with a set of air shocks maybe ??
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HTH do you find all the "alternative" parts you find?I mean,I could look around foe days and not find an AC part would be a direct replacement AND lighter to boot!
google is your friend lol, l found that over on buggy news
and yes plenty of vegetation left in the field for me to have ago at but need a boat right now not a buggy lol
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3/8" plunge over 11" is not bad but as travel grows so does plunge.Voodoochicken uses them and has done just fine. Unless you get carried away with HP or need more than about 17* axle angle they work just fine and solve a lot of needed plunge issues.
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11" is plenty for me, l have always subscribed to the " l will go 9/10ths as fast for 1/10th of the cost" theory
lol
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11" is plenty for a buggy of that size also. I like your theory but somehow never accomplished it. You do a very fine job tho!
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its still raining hard here, very hard :o
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and a bit more vid, rear facing camera on the back of the china buggy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHHwja_CZHY&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHHwja_CZHY&feature=plcp)
struggling to get the forward facing vid to upload to youtube
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Sure wish I'd have had my vid running yesterday.
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l bet you do lol,
and the front view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfnoYkOgQNw&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfnoYkOgQNw&feature=plcp)