DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)

UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: Enemy on February 29, 2012, 02:40:34 PM

Title: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on February 29, 2012, 02:40:34 PM
Finally got some time to get this just about wrapped up, now just gotta go test it and see if it will even work!  ;D

Old radiator was behind the seats and not receiving enough clean air when temps got into the 80's outside and trying to run it hard. I pulled it out of the way and built a firewall with a B&M oil cooler plumbed to the backside. Base/clear the backside black, and lined the inside with HydroTurf to clean it up and add some sound deadening.

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I have found just about as many uses for this stuff as ductape and zip-ties! Their site is a major pain in the ass, but always to my door in a couple days. Check it out http://hydroturf.com/add_to_cart.php?cat=Sheets%20of%20Hydro-Turf&num=SHT47CD (http://hydroturf.com/add_to_cart.php?cat=Sheets%20of%20Hydro-Turf&num=SHT47CD)

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Down the road I might try to incorporate some kinda engine cover/air shroud above the firewall and valvecover
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Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on February 29, 2012, 03:08:08 PM
New radiator design. Sent the pic to SRS, a few emails finalizing the dimensions, and got a very nice unit exactly how I wanted it. They are a few more bucks than others out there, but I believe the quality is top notch. http://streetrodstuff.com/Products/99/ (http://streetrodstuff.com/Products/99/)

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Building up a lower support
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More Hydroturf! Vibration dampening and a very nice snug fit
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Upper support..
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All mocked up. Going to build some small shrouds for the sides and bottom to funnel all the air through the innercooler. Then gunna go abuse the shit outa it! Haven't decided on either polish the supports up or prime and paint them semi-gloss black.. Not sure on that one yet  ???
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Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fastcorvairs on February 29, 2012, 03:50:31 PM
Looking good Enemy.  Get it ready for St Anthony.  We'll put it to the test for sure. 
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on February 29, 2012, 04:20:31 PM
Thanks Fast! Im gunna do my damnedest to make that trip! 
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on February 29, 2012, 08:18:53 PM
Have you not had any fan troubles. When we were at LS I had almost all the fins break off the hubs. Same unit you have exactly.After I got back from Yuma I had 3 fins broken off just like last time at LS. They made the fans good last time as a one time warranty/PR. They replaced these also but I'm worried about sticking one of the fins  into the rad core as they break free.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: sandycrack on March 01, 2012, 06:41:51 AM
Nice fab work there!  Ever thought about getting 1 Spal fan and making a shroud for it?  About 130.00 for a 14" swept blade.  IMO it will move everybit as much air as those 2 fans.

I am curious about the ability for that mat to not breakdown under the radiator.  I am looking for something for mine that is thin, but will take the abrasive sand and vibration and not break down.  I have been considering leather.  Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on March 01, 2012, 08:46:01 AM
Have you not had any fan troubles. When we were at LS I had almost all the fins break off the hubs. Same unit you have exactly.After I got back from Yuma I had 3 fins broken off just like last time at LS. They made the fans good last time as a one time warranty/PR. They replaced these also but I'm worried about sticking one of the fins  into the rad core as they break free.

I lost two fins on a fan with my very first setup a four years back, but dug a corn stalk out of the shroud after it happened. Figured it was the culprit along with the heat soak from the turbo being inches away from it. I have had a spare fan on hand ever since and fortunately have never had to use it.

Nice fab work there!  Ever thought about getting 1 Spal fan and making a shroud for it?  About 130.00 for a 14" swept blade.  IMO it will move everybit as much air as those 2 fans.

I am curious about the ability for that mat to not breakdown under the radiator.  I am looking for something for mine that is thin, but will take the abrasive sand and vibration and not break down.  I have been considering leather.  Any thoughts on this?


Thanks SandyC!
I thought about switching to a single unit, but now that I am going to get some air to the radiator I figured I will see how the sirocco style works out. It is a mighty little setup flow wise. Just hoping I don't have Fabrs luck with fins letting go!

I have been using Hydroturf for about 10 years starting with the floor boards in my jet-skiing and boating days, and currently have it covering the floor in the rail for over a year with no deterioration. Also park the car on small mats when its inside the trailer..Thinking about covering the ramp door on the trailer for traction mat. (a start to my padded room?  rofl)
It will take major abuse!
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: sandycrack on March 01, 2012, 11:38:14 AM
Good to know.  I may order some so I can see what uses I may find for it.  Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: komelika on March 01, 2012, 12:31:10 PM
Looks great! Personally, I would polish it or go with matching yellow. I think the black would be too contrasting to the aluminum and yellow.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: sandycrack on March 01, 2012, 12:59:39 PM
Polished would look bitchin!
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on March 01, 2012, 08:12:22 PM
Looks great! Personally, I would polish it or go with matching yellow. I think the black would be too contrasting to the aluminum and yellow.
Thanks Komelika!
Hmmm..Now that you help put it all into better perspective, I am starting to lean to the yellow..All the brackets... intercooler as well ya think ??? Throw ideas out there guys! I feed off this stuff!

If I polish them Im thinking about 10 more hours of metal working to get them so they will look worth a shit all blinged out!   thumb down
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Carlriddle on March 02, 2012, 05:29:33 AM
I dont like the rad's up behind the noggin cause the eyes in the back of my head cant see.   But you had to move it, and not sure where else you coulda gone except front of buggy.  As with the rest it looks top notch!!  ;) 

As for color, one other idea; for a matt alum finish similar to gas tank blast them with baking soda or super fine sand.  Polished stuff looks great for a while, unless clear coated.  Paint, well thats almost too easy for you, but I like the yellow over black.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: komelika on March 02, 2012, 09:38:15 AM
Judging by everything I've seen, anything you do is going to look top shelf. I think it looks good even with the raw aluminum, but you obviously have the skills to turn good into great. Looking forward to seeing the final result! 

Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on March 02, 2012, 10:11:17 PM
Thanks guys!

Carl - Always curious what soda did/looked like to aluminum. Im not a fan of it in the industry stripping cars for resto. Pain in the ass washing panels down with vinegar to prep for repair! Damn stuff creates a mess! 
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on June 18, 2012, 08:14:36 PM
Update- Cooling system is working really well. Engine goes to 195* and sits on the thermostat know matter how hard I push it. fans only cycle at low speeds as well. Think I got er licked! WOOHOO!

Oil cooler can also be used as interior heater if you eff up and wire it backward! The woman thought it needs to stay that way for night time, just might have to put it on a three way switch to keep her from shivering at the bottom of hills at night around here... First ride out I was thinking the little cooler was radiating so much heat I needed to move it somewhere else! ....stupid brain.  rofl rofl
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on July 30, 2012, 02:33:35 PM
Have you not had any fan troubles. When we were at LS I had almost all the fins break off the hubs. Same unit you have exactly.After I got back from Yuma I had 3 fins broken off just like last time at LS. They made the fans good last time as a one time warranty/PR. They replaced these also but I'm worried about sticking one of the fins  into the rad core as they break free.

Well, good thing I have a spare.. One of the fans let 3 fins go after jumping a sandbar on the river this weekend. That was a disturbing sound to hear, thought my valvetrain had something let go! Thankfully nothing went through the rad core..Back to the drawing board I guess, don't think they will warranty mine  thumb down

I think they need to run a ring around the entire outer circumference of the blade assembly, I have seen that on other manufacturers fans, maybe it would cure this problem. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on July 30, 2012, 06:27:55 PM
I've got extra fan blades,about 8 of them! LOL!!  Yes,the fix is simple. A ring around the OD. Effers know there is a prolem and don't give a shit. I've thought about adding a ring  Wouldn't need to be to much of one either. Thinking of even a thich/wide rubber band might do the trick. IMO,it's from blade vibration. Does your fan run smooth? Mine don't.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Carlriddle on July 31, 2012, 05:56:02 AM
Agree on the ring, but another thing I was studing.  Rad/fan standing more vertical as opposed to the the 45* angle would put less stress on blades from rough terrain?  Maybe?  Are they leaving a ring on Rad fins from flexing before the break?  And seems to be a couple different "plastics" used.  Guess I should pick up a spare fan.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on July 31, 2012, 06:06:55 AM
THe angle isn't the issue IMO. It's the vibrating,unsupported blades. Mine will only last a few days before beginning to shed blades.I'm on  like my 8th fan so far.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on July 31, 2012, 07:28:19 AM
THe angle isn't the issue IMO. It's the vibrating,unsupported blades. Mine will only last a few days before beginning to shed blades.I'm on  like my 8th fan so far.

SERIOUSLY!!?? Damn, I better get a couple more!

The two that were on it did not have any noticable vibration, but I do have a prop balancer Im gunna try and set the spares up in and see how far off they are out of the box.
The blades have never touched the rad fins so I dont think its a contact issue or mounting angle either.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Carlriddle on July 31, 2012, 08:04:29 AM
8th set,  :o bs1 :o  Going to check mine, cant remember if it has a ring.  How about the resonating sound frequency from bike engine?  Cant remember reading about car engines having issues.

8th set!!  Damn Fabr, cant believe I've not heard you cussing from my front porch.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on July 31, 2012, 09:50:11 AM
SERIOUSLY!!?? Damn, I better get a couple more!

The two that were on it did not have any noticable vibration, but I do have a prop balancer Im gunna try and set the spares up in and see how far off they are out of the box.
The blades have never touched the rad fins so I dont think its a contact issue or mounting angle either.
My first set were hitting the motor supports. Flexalite suggested clipping the blade corners to prevent contact. That stopped contact but fins still broke off. Last fans I left alone and they still shed fins. Seriously,I have 8 bad fans. I have a box full of replacements. Jegs actually now stocks the replacement fans.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on September 16, 2013, 10:00:23 PM
Got a few more things addressed on the cooling system. The spring trip to LS was still seeing the temps slowly creep up to *220+ after long runs so I slid some cardboard on the sides of the radiator/intercooler in hopes that it will get more air to the radiator. It worked, kinda. It took longer for the temps to creep up now, so that's progress I suppose. Fabr brought up a very good point that the intercooler is most likely not letting much air to the core begin with and should be cut down since its total overkill anyway  :)
Agreed! And for a bonus, it shaved about 10 pounds off the rear. The tanks on this thing are built for a TANK!

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Hopefully that will do the trick, there is a very noticeable difference on how much more air the fans are moving and the fans seem to be cycling very little sitting still and don't run at all going down the road. Will have to see what story OK will tell.

 
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on September 16, 2013, 10:14:59 PM
Got the engine cover done. No more screaming Busa valvetrain making my ears bleed by the end of the day! Layered the underside with some Hushmat and hydroturf to deaden the noise a bit more. Had some of that goofy Cobweb stuff left over and sillystringged it on top of the black then a semigloss clearcoat. Possibly a touch quieter than the Busa with the tank and insulation from the factory!    HAPPY EARS!!

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Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on September 16, 2013, 10:45:14 PM
Luv the IC mod! I hate you for the quiet engine . I'm SOOOOOOOO jealous.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on September 17, 2013, 08:15:06 AM
 rofl Thanks Fabr! Hate you too! ;D

With all the airflow stuff you study, what are your thoughts on the boost curve ramping in to peak a bit faster? I mean since the turbo is no longer pressurizing a massive void of an IC first.. I thought I read somewhere that too large an IC can cause some lag in itself.. 
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Carlriddle on September 17, 2013, 09:08:39 AM
Looking good, as I would expect no less.  A little padded room for the busa to play in.   ;D  Let the kids out with silly string again.  rofl

I've read that too about IC size too big causeing lag with a small turbo.  You may have a small increase in intake temps, but increase spool time.  But you not pushing real high boost ##'s so shouldn't make much diff.  And all that doesn't matter much if your sittin with me waiting for motor to cool back down.  But it could cut into cold beverage time.  thumb down
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on September 17, 2013, 09:39:48 AM
Thanks Carl! Beverage time is critical, must find that fine balance point! ;D
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on September 17, 2013, 01:42:24 PM
rofl Thanks Fabr! Hate you too! ;D

With all the airflow stuff you study, what are your thoughts on the boost curve ramping in to peak a bit faster? I mean since the turbo is no longer pressurizing a massive void of an IC first.. I thought I read somewhere that too large an IC can cause some lag in itself..
Certainly the entire intake tract is a factor in boost build time and is in turn a factor in the lag that we feel ,or not.On my car with the same IC modded almost exactly as you have now done I feel no boost lag at all. It is a seamless progression from off/on/off boost.An IC should really be only as large as necessary to keep IC temps where you want them. Any larger is a waste of spool time for our purposes. Drag cars live by different rules.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Dunebound69 on September 19, 2013, 03:09:49 PM
I use one fan. http://speedwaymotors.com/Flex-a-lite-Model-155-Electric-Cooling-Fan,1807.html It flows 2800 cfm. Never lost a blade in over 8 years. With this thing you all you need is lots of power! Sounds like a jet is behind you in the car.

It is louder than my motor at idle.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Dunebound69 on September 19, 2013, 03:21:14 PM
Enemy you have reminded me that my rad looks like crap. I will have to remedy that in the future. I have thougt about putting panels to cove my entire motor, gas tank, rad. Basicly from behind the seats to the back of the car. Like any rail I have a lot I would like to do. Things I need to do. Power steering is creaping its way up on the list.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: Enemy on September 19, 2013, 06:13:25 PM
I've been tinkering with the idea of PS as well, but I think I am getting very close to not having the juice to run anymore goodies.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on September 19, 2013, 06:21:00 PM
Get rid of goodies and get ps in the car. Best goodie there is.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on September 20, 2013, 07:57:07 AM
ps is looking like a winter project here along with a few other poss mods!  ;)
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on October 10, 2022, 09:39:11 AM
so nothing to do with your cooling system....yet  ;D

so i still find this interesting and where i don't have all the data yet, we have enough to discuss it.

so while we re valved enemy's rear 2.5 shocks last sat, i noticed a few things. we slowed his comp down half a step to 90 and slowed the rebound down 1/2 a step to 2-1. now he didnt want to slow the rebound down but the board voted and voted against him  rofl  kick bs1 rofl :nw

he asked what comp rate i run in my normal rail. i looked and i run a 50 comp rate in my rear 2.5's that is a faster comp rate then his by almost double the rate. my rebound is 2-1 in the rear and it was needed as it would buck in the whoops and that stopped the rear issue. 

 i run 385 to 400 psi in the rear and enemy i believe said 420 ish psi. my rail is 500 lbs heavier and definitely heavier in the rear. both have 24" wheel travel utilizing 14" stroke fox shocks. to be exact in my case i have 23.75" of actual wheel travel with 4" GC at full bump. enemy would need to chime in to be sure but i think he may tap out at the moment his shock bottoms out or right before. been so long i don't truly remember and have had a crap ton going on this year! both are a-arm rears roughly the same length a arm. he has joints so his may have an extra 2" stand off on each side.

so the question is, why does a 500 lb lighter rail need 40 psi more pressure and need to operate twice as slow on compression????????????????????

walked out and measured my lower rear shock mounts in relation to the wheel bearing carrier lower a arm bolting position. mine are 8.75" but lets call that 9" as i was using a tape measure and some cv grease leaped out and bit me.  enemy measure his later that night and reported 13" so 4" farther up the a arm then mine. 4" seems to make quite a bit of difference!  both with a stroke rate of 1.71:1 but due to frame packaging enemy is 4" higher up the a arm and a tad straighter then i am.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on October 11, 2022, 06:28:50 AM
so nothing to do with your cooling system....yet  ;D

so i still find this interesting and where i don't have all the data yet, we have enough to discuss it.

so while we re valved enemy's rear 2.5 shocks last sat, i noticed a few things. we slowed his comp down half a step to 90 and slowed the rebound down 1/2 a step to 2-1. now he didnt want to slow the rebound down but the board voted and voted against him  rofl  kick bs1 rofl :nw

he asked what comp rate i run in my normal rail. i looked and i run a 50 comp rate in my rear 2.5's that is a faster comp rate then his by almost double the rate. my rebound is 2-1 in the rear and it was needed as it would buck in the whoops and that stopped the rear issue. 

 i run 385 to 400 psi in the rear and enemy i believe said 420 ish psi. my rail is 500 lbs heavier and definitely heavier in the rear. both have 24" wheel travel utilizing 14" stroke fox shocks. to be exact in my case i have 23.75" of actual wheel travel with 4" GC at full bump. enemy would need to chime in to be sure but i think he may tap out at the moment his shock bottoms out or right before. been so long i don't truly remember and have had a crap ton going on this year! both are a-arm rears roughly the same length a arm. he has joints so his may have an extra 2" stand off on each side.

so the question is, why does a 500 lb lighter rail need 40 psi more pressure and need to operate twice as slow on compression????????????????????

walked out and measured my lower rear shock mounts in relation to the wheel bearing carrier lower a arm bolting position. mine are 8.75" but lets call that 9" as i was using a tape measure and some cv grease leaped out and bit me.  enemy measure his later that night and reported 13" so 4" farther up the a arm then mine. 4" seems to make quite a bit of difference!  both with a stroke rate of 1.71:1 but due to frame packaging enemy is 4" higher up the a arm and a tad straighter then i am.
Smallish differences in angles and leverage ratios make big differences in shock/spring needs . Actually,if I read that right your differences are  substantial.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on October 11, 2022, 11:34:31 AM
Yes they do!
In this case, with the same shocks same motion ratio and 500 lb lighter wet weight........ I thought surely they would be in the same ball park.  Clearly an extra 4" of leverage makes a sizable difference!  I say that based on. A 500 lb  difference. Wonder how far thr spread would be if weight was equal?
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on October 11, 2022, 01:03:42 PM
Weights the same, I think the differences in the a arm mounting angles due to ride height is the biggest factor in this.  It's not just motion ratio.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on October 12, 2022, 10:07:05 AM
Weights the same, I think the differences in the a arm mounting angles due to ride height is the biggest factor in this.  It's not just motion ratio.

i would think the weight bares some load difference but apparently not as much as leverage on the shock via location on the arm.

Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on October 12, 2022, 04:10:59 PM
Location and angle from perpendicular
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on October 13, 2022, 09:59:06 AM
Location and angle from perpendicular


So thats the interesting part and would be interesting to compare side by side but that won't be possible for some time. I believe his shocks are mounted more vertical the mine.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: fabr on October 13, 2022, 11:14:10 AM
Doesn't take much angle difference to make massive difference in springing/damping needs.
Title: Re: Cooling system upgrades
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2022, 06:49:02 AM
Doesn't take much angle difference to make massive difference in springing/damping needs.

This is true as we have seen. We will have to see what it will take to get closer to the wheel.  The angle on his shock is not much, I think this is more leverage from the wheel.
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